1 coat of arms/overrun gg's humility hard
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1 coat of arms/overrun gg's humility hard
Alternatively Garruk Wildspeaker which is a good card otherwise as well.
If you need a good, solid answer to humility, you really don't need to look any farther than grip. Against versions of landstill with humility it really shines. They often play other targets for it, including disk, moat explosives, or even deed. I hope these posts about playing garruck or coat of arms arent serious.
Yeah, I run 3 Grips in the board - was just trying to think if there was any way around it main, but I think we have to just settle for beating them down with hasty 1/1's :)
Why would you not be happy to bring in Krosan Grip against Landstill? It seems like a solid answer to a lot of their permanent disruption.
In the games I've played against Landstill, the most common form of permanent based sweeper they use is EE, which tends to get blown up immediately.Quote:
Originally Posted by HAVE HEART
Also, if you're running Messengers, Grip further dilutes your Elf density.
Boarding in 3+ cards to deal with 1 card just seems like bad boarding to me. However, it may just be a necessary evil when dealing with Humility.
I usually side out at most 4 cards against any given match. Bringing out too many elves dilutes the strategy a bit too much. Against most landstill decks, I'd bring in only 3 grips, and if they're on 4 color, magus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Choke just really isn't good enough to against most landstill decks to warrant the damage he does to messenger.
So after some heavy testing the other night against NLS, I've decided that since our combo matchup is absolutely terrible (I was 20% post board), I'm giving up my sideboard space against combo to focus more on fighting blue decks, Zoo, and red decks.
Here's the current board I'm considering:
4 Absolute Law
4 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
1 Caller of the Claw (still testing this one)
3 Pithing Needle (mainly for EE's and Deeds, possibly Qsali Pridemages or Grim Lavamancers - this needs more testing)
In shoring up the Zoo matchup, I've also considered Jittes in the board, but it might not be that good since if my creatures never get to swing, Jitte is dead. Jitte also seems better against the other tribal matchups, but we already have good matchups against those.
Thoughts?
Jitte seems like it should be really amazing in the board, but it has never really worked out for me. It just changes the entire way your deck plays, as you spend all your mana early dropping and equipping it, rather than building up your board. I'm still trying to figure out whether it's useable, but it just seems like another non elf card that you have to bring in.
Yeah I hear ya. I'm already mad enough at having to play Grips, Chokes, and Absolute Law in the board, but Jitte does seem great in theory especially since we have no shortage of creatures to slap it on.
I'm also playing around with a maindeck Magus of the Moon. Against the Counterbalance decks, it seems to really wreck them especially Game 1 when they're not expecting it (also, it gives you a little bit of a way out against problematic non-basic lands like Academy Ruins recurring EE/Disk).
I've liked having Jitte in the board. It makes even your smallest elves really scary.
The more I play TEES, the more I realize that I don't kill my opponent with lords + swarms very often. It's usually Progenitus or Tarmogoyf + a few random elves. There's too much removal in Legacy to be able to swarm very often.
I board in Jitte so much that I think I'm going to try it in the main.
I've been testing Tarmogoyf and Vanquisher myself recently. I like Goyf over Vanquisher because Vanquisher dies to Firespout and Lightning Bolt too often for my taste.
However, I think I just don't like Goyf in the deck very much either (I had cut ESG for them) and am going back to what I was playing before with ESG.
For me, since I'm playing Mirror Entity/Symbiote, I find myself winning a lot via the Mirror Entity or multiple Lords beatdown. While Natural Order is an amazing threat, I find it gets countered quite often, so I don't win via Progenitus very often. It's still an amazing threat though, but just so crazy threatening that opponents have to save a Force for it.
I'll test Jitte this weekend and see what I think of it. Pithing Needle just seems so meh to me.
Natural Order is much stronger when you're also running Goyf. I can't tell you how many times I've led with a Goyf, had it countered, and followed with NO. You need to bait more if you're NOs are getting countered too often. Just because you have 4 green mana and a dude in play doesn't mean you have to cast NO. It's ok to hold NO until you've baited out a counter with Goyf, Survival (if Progenitus > Survival in your position), or a lord.
I've actually found that Progenitus has been one of my most consistent and reliable paths to victory.
QFT. I really didnt believe it would be that big a win-con, but it is one of the best cards in the deck, and I really cant justify playing less than 4 anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
Yeah I'm upping my NO count back up to 4 because it's such a beating.
For me, the problem I have with Goyf is that I can't find room for other stuff I want to put into the deck, particularly ESG's for me.
To me, against any of the non-blue decks, I want to get NO online as soon as possible, which is where ESG really makes a big difference.
I hate ESG. I played it in once and I really don't like it. I find that messenger works better for me. Also, I recently cut vanquisher's, and I am testing out 3 goyfs.
The problem with Vanquisher is, that he is a bad topdeck.
I often hold it 2-3 turns in my hand, because I have no elf or 5 mana to cast it.
I finally picked up my 4th Survival, and I think I'll play this deck. However, I need to check: is this deck viable without the Natural Order backup plan? Also, once you're stable on mana and established Anger and Squee, what do you do (in terms of tutoring for and playing things) next?
It's not nearly as strong without order, but you might be able to get away with the original build using mirror entity and wirewood symbiote. As for what to tutor for, you really need to make that decision for yourself, either tutor for combo pieces, or just find messenger to reload, or find priest or archdruid to get massive amounts of mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
Yeah once you get Survival with Anger/Squee, you've got quite a few options:
As Beastman said, if you're running the original infinite combo (I run this one), you can just make infinitely large elves and win.
If you're not playing the combo, or its been disrupted, you can always just start fetching Lords and go with Lord beatdown as well.
With massive mana, some people also play Wren's Run Packmaster (make craploads of wolves) or Masticore (clear your opponent's board).
NO+Progenitus just gives the deck one more method to win the game, so I'd try and pick those up as soon as I can.
Hey everyone. I'm new to the source and I've been sifting through the vast information learning from every page for the past month or so. I've looked through decks I wanted to start building on, and I had already constructed an elf stompy deck when I ran across this survival build of elves, and I really liked the concept. So I've been thinking about different ways to make it fast and still make it work, and well here it is.
//Lands// x18
1x Gaea's Cradle
2x Forest
2x Wasteland
3x Taiga
3x Savannah
3x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
//Creatures// x34
1x Progenitus
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Anger
1x Mirror Entity
2x Viridian Zealot
3x Elvish Archdruid
3x Sylvan Messenger
2x Quirion Ranger
3x Fyndhorn Elves
3x Llanowar Elves
3x Elvish Spirit Guide
3x Wirewood Symbiote
4x Imperious Perfect
4x Priest of Titania
//Engines// x8
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Natural Order
//Sideboard//
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Krosan Grip
3x Choke
2x Pithing Needle
The reasoning behind the 0 Elvish Champions and Packmaster, is well I really think they slow the deck down. The two different lords with the archdruid and the perfect I think are plenty, and I find entity a better mana dump for me, because it has won me a ton more games then Packmaster ever has. I also like running 2x Zealot's becasue usually the first one get's the hate and running the second just makes you have a better chance of landing one game 1, when we all know that there are plenty of artifacts and enchants that he is useful against. Any feedback would be appreciated thanks. :)
While sometimes elvish champion can be overkill, you really want as many lords as you can, because this deck needs as many individual threats as possible because of how many little one mana elves you have. When you have a bunch of them out, each lord is a big threat. Also I would cut the gaea's cradle, as when it's effective, you should already have enough eles to generate enough mana to win, and if you need it for mana early, it can screw you.
I have tested Gaea's Cradle as well and found it pretty underwhelming. It really makes you cry when you draw it in your opening hand as well as again, it's kind of win more.
I'm not sure about the 2 Wastelands either. Wasteland is one of those cards where if you're going to run it, I believe you should run it as a 4 of unless you have some way to tutor it up when needed.
Another bonus to the Champion is oftentimes, you'll get to just drop him, then swing for Forestwalking lethal damage.
I also agree that Champion needs to be included just for the reason that he gives elves forestwalk when tons of decks are splashing green for Tarmagoyf. His ability isn't quite as flexible as the other two lords but quite often it will be game ending if he hits the board across from a forest.
I also don't agree with the wasteland as it only produces colorless mana. While the potential for mana denial or unique land removal (I personally have begun to hate academy ruins + engineered explosives), it can force you to mull a hand with land + mana elves because it can't produce green.
The advantages gained from Waste just don't seem to be worth it to me, and I haven't encountered a situation where I would be happy to see it testing against goblins, landstill and tempo thresh. While it slows your opponent down, I feel like it would slow the deck down more.
I have been running this:Quote:
Originally Posted by LegacyFTW
Creatures
4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Priest Of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Anger
Enchantments
4 Survival Of The Fittest
Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
Sorceries
4 Natural Order
Basic Lands
10 Forest
Lands
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Price of Progress
4 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
The sideboard is up in the air i suppose, you still lose to dredge which is kinda poopy but it does improve the tempo thresh and landstill matchups. The Mirror Entity combo is kinda subpar as it makes it so you have to have 2-3 specific creatures on board at once which can be tough with all the spot removal in the format.
I think you should consider running either the Mirror Entity combo or Packmaster.
With the addition of the Archdruids, this deck has the potential to really generate a lot of mana. Either one of those two really allows you to abuse all that mana you're going to be making (I also run 1 Masticore maindeck as well).
Its true that I can generate mass mana but at that point I should be winning or just need a champion to win, these 2 cards are not very good if I draw them with nothing on board.
Most of the cards in the deck (barring Imperious Perfect or Survival) aren't that great if you draw them with nothing on the board.
Mirror Entity/Packmaster give you another way to win other than just attacking with Lord elves.
Also, I think that not running white is a real mistake. I believe that Absolute Law in the board is crucial to stay alive against decks with a lot of burn (Zoo) or decks that run the red sweepers, especially Firespout.
[X]Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
I for myself cut the white splash mainboard completely. It stays for Absolute Law, 1 Gaddock Teeg & 1 Ethersworn Canonist in the Board.
Most decks I really need white against don't play Wasteland (GoyfSligh/Zoo, Combo.. Ugr Nought, never seen here), so I only play 1 Savannah (& 7 Fetchies)
My current list:
Main:
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Priest of Titania
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
2 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
Survival:
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
Natural Order:
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
Lands:
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
7 Forest
SB (always a mish-mash of the following)
2-4 Absolute Law
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Emyprial Archangel/Simic Sky Swallower (me hates Moat -_-)
1 Loaming Shaman
2 Umezawa's Jitte (always useful, comes in vs anything with burn)
1 Wellwisher (if there is much burn, Prot:Red for your elves is fine, but not always enough)
3 Choke
2 Tsunami
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tranquility (Always encounter Enchantress & W-Staxx ... )
It isn't perfect, but has done well for me til now.
For reference, here is my list:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ALA] Forest (1)
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
2 [B] Taiga
2 [B] Savannah
// Creatures
1 [JU] Anger
1 [LRW] Wren's Run Packmaster
1 [CNF] Progenitus
2 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [M10] Elvish Archdruid
3 [US] Priest of Titania
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [LRW] Imperious Perfect
4 [B] Llanowar Elves
4 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
2 [IN] Elvish Champion
1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger
// Spells
4 [PT] Natural Order
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [US] Absolute Law
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [UD] Masticore
SB: 3 [B] Tsunami
Thinks what I think about:
Cut Wirewood Symbiote:
-He won me some games, simply by creating massiv amaounts of mana and bouncing a creature to pitch it to Survival for Packmaster.
- Still, this is very situational and just a 1/1.
- It can't be find with Messanger.
- Can create chumpblocker
- CA with Messanger
The 4th Natural Order:
Since last tournament in the last two rounds, me and my opponents casted over 13 Natural order (Really!), I think I will go up the count, even if I hate that much 4cc cards. But it's simply a Win-Button on this card.
Cut the 3rd Champion
I think 11 Lords are too much.
The Forestwalk ability is great, but mostly unnecesarry with 10 lords.
2 Champions + 4 Messanger + 4 Order + 4 Survival should be enough to create a constant forestwalk.
Play the 8th Llanowar or 4th Priest:
I think it's more important to accelerate turn 2 up to 3 mana.
Also, Priest will be often Spell Snare'd.
Do you think those changes are good?
+4 Natural Order
+1 Llanowar
-1 Champion
-1 Symbiote (still the slot which I found to be a superb Survivalcard)
Sideboard:
Yes, it's copy/Pasted from here, but it worked out good.
What about, playing 1 lifegainer (Wellwisher) or Duplicant just to have something against flyer?
I think Absolute law is a better card for your zoo and goyf sligh matchups than wellwisher. He almost never gets activated.
If I expect some Sligh I put 3 Absolute Law & 1 Wellwisher & 1 Empyrial Archangel into the SB, cause I often lose even with Absolute Law on the 'battlefield'. The Sligh player will just burn us directly into our face instead of wasting it onto creatures. I've been in final burn range many times when I had finally set up AL. Also their biggest threads are not red, but green (Nacatl, Goyf), which you have to block if able.Quote:
Originally Posted by beastman
Anything with heavy burn just isn't a favourable MU for TEES.
I agree that it is still a very difficult MU, but you are never going to have enough elves on the table for WW to make a difference, and if you do, you should have already won. The best bet for this MU is to just resolve a natural order as quick as possible.
I wonder why most people don't run Deranged Hermit. He is so good with Wirewood Symbiote and Rofellos or Priest.
Turn 1: Mana Elf
Turn 2: Survival, survival up Anger
Turn 3: Survival for Rofellos. Play Rofellos and activate for GGG and search for Squee, Deranged Hermit, Wirewood Symbiote.
Turn 4: Activate Rofellos for GGGG, play Hermit and Symbiote, return Hermit, untap Rofellos, replay Hermit. Here you have still one land and the Mana Elf untapped. Play a 1-mana elf and attack for 20 damage. (8 * 2/2 tokens, Hermit, Symbiote, 2 Mana Elves).
Granted, this only works with turn 2 Survival and all 4 land drops, but it's cool and game winning nonetheless. But I guess with less lands you can achieve the same with some Elves and Priest instead, too.
I don't know if this is better than Mirror Entity combo, but at least it is on-color and only takes ~2 more slots.
Hermit isn't an elf, and he doesn't make elves either.
Deranged Hermit
Creature - Elf 1/1, 3GG
Thought he was a druid. He still really isn't very good.
If I'm playing any creatures that cost that much, they should be doing ridiculous things. Deranged Hermit does very little given how much it costs. In the ideal situation it'd be nuts, but so would 100 other cards. The only creatures that have a shot of making the cut that cost more than 3 are Sylvan Messenger, Wickerbough Elder, and Masticore. Otherwise it's really a waste of slots given the inconsistency of things like Deranged Hermit.
Ok, so this is my decklist. I've been reading, bashing my face to the wall and had serious brainstorming going on.
Creature
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Progenitus
Enchantment
4 Survival of the Fittest
Sorcery
4 Natural Order
Land
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
5 Forest
Sideboard
3 Krosan Grip
3 Absolute Law
3 Tsunami
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Empyrial Archangel
Potential Sideboard cards
Choke
Ethersworn Canonist
Tranquility
I have also come to the conclusion that dropping ESG's for other cards makes the deck a little better, but slower. There have been times where I don't want to go all in for a NO turn 2 since a counter will destroy your game. I rather play safe and get Prog online turn 3.
This made it possible to opt Messenger to 4, aswell opting NO to 4 and letting me get to the 10 lord mark.
My only major concern is that I only run 17 lands, will this be an issue? If so, what to cut for more lands?
I've seen some interesting sideboard options in this thread, and I have to thank Di for suggesting Absolute Law, a card that I forgot all about. It's mean against those Zoo/burn/sligh decks, and paired with Empyrial Archangel, it's thumbs up in my book.
The only thing I'm somewhat thinking about is the Tsunami/Choke issue, which is best? Destroying all islands för 3G or just letting them be tapped by Choke for 2G, which is easier to play around. I dunno... Some help here would be appriciated.
Tranquility? Is it really needed? I don't know, I still hate losing to random decks with enchantments, but that's why we run krosan grip right? I would rather run a Instant speed enchantment removal for those matchups since my major concerns are enchantments like humility, Leyline (helm combo) etc. since it's often game when they go into their turn. But passing a turn with mana up indicates that somethings going on.
I've had the combo matchup up for discussion before, is it even worth devoting slots to it in the sideboard? I feel that TEES, even with boarded hate against combo, has the biggest uphill battle here.
Loaming Shaman is there to reset the yard, knocking down goyfs (since I don't play them myself) or just have a sideboard card against dredge. Is it worth it or should I just opt for other matchups? Adding a 4th grip? I've seen ppl boarding Relic of Progenitus and such, but since we run SotF, I want creatures. Is it worth considering Woodfall Primus as a tutor target with NO? Should he make the cut? I can't think of other creatures worth NO:ing for besides Prog and Empyrial Archangel.
Jitte's are self explanatory... It's just a great card in a creature deck!
How's your experience with Wickerbough Elder? Is he the new house even though I run the Messenger route?
If I were to change the Vanquisher's MD, should it be for goyf? It still lowers the elf count and makes Messenger a lot worse... I've been playing games when I've been way behind and I need to refule with messenger and hit jank... That's so frustrating.
I appriciate all the input I can recieve, positive and negative...
I'm back from Legacy champs where I was 5-1 going into round 7 where I lost to Ben Weinberg. So I have a short report.
Round, Deck, Pilot, Game record (Some names didn't make it into my notes. I'll fill the rest in later)
1 Tempo Thresh, Dan Pische (1-2)
2 Some janky zoo deck (2-0)
3 NLU (2-0)
4 Zoo, Derek (2-0)
5 Dredge, James King (2-1)
6 Burn, Josiah (2-0)
7 Tempo Thresh, Ben Weinberg (0-2)
8 Zoo, Mark (1-2)
My list:
Maindeck
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Priest of Titania
3 Elvish Archdruid
3 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Natural Order
1 Elvish Piper
1 Progenitus
1 Empyrial Archangel
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Masticore
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Mirror Entity
2 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Tarmogoyf
Sideboard
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Absolute Law
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Choke
Both my losses were to Tempo Thresh while I was in contention. I lost when they drew multiple Fire//Ices in one game, and once when I mulliganed into oblivion. I also only lost 1 game 2 all tournament, it was the mull to oblivion (Cradle, forest, Goyf, Absolute Law got kept). It might be my lower land count, but when testing a higher land count for two weeks I found myself flooded with no business almost constantly.
And I'm sure I have to explain some card choices.
Empyrial Archangel was golden. There was an instance in which I had to NO Archangel because Prog was in my hand. Also, I didn't lose a single game in which the Archangel hit play. And I did get in play Absolute Law with Empyrial Archangel in game 2 of my burn match, and it always made for a solid Natural Order target if Progenitus was unavailable or if I was about to lose.
Elvish Piper was a lot more productive than you would think. There were multiple times in which I was able to play it with Anger in the yard, and attack with Progenitus that turn thanks to Survival. It's been living up to it's slot so far for me.
Symbiote was doubled up because I wanted to have Mirror Entity combo be a major out for me when I needed it, and it was throughout the day. I still want Mirror Entity to be a 2-of because it it is effectively just a lord you have to pump mana into, but in my fluctuating list over the past few weeks it ended up a 1-of. I'm just not quite sure what should get cut right now.
Goyf is a pretty good wall while I set up some combo/lords/progenitus. I'm sure everyone has figured that out by now.
Genesis got added mainly so I can recur Viridan Zealot. Sometimes it also returns something else like Teeg, Goyf, and Perfect.
One thing I'm sure I got lucky on was round 3 game 1 my opponent punted by setting EE at 0 instead of 2 when my board was 5 Land, Elf Warrior token, and Survival and didn't pop it. I resolved Natural Order next turn.