[Deck] Zoo

I guess a fair way to describe Loxodon's attitude is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". He has had marginal success with his version and at the moment, he is perfectly happy with it.


I have come to understand that Vial is definitely worth testing. Also, has anyone considered Serra Avenger with the addition of Vial? Playing a 2-of Angel could allow for his drawback to be less relevant and one can Vial him in on turn 2. This deck has always needed some kind of evasion and if worst comes to worst, one can sit back with Pridemages and swing in with an exalted Serra. I don't think the WW cost is relevant because a) I generally fetch for Plateau/Savannah before Taiga and b) Vial cheats this cost.

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Originally Posted by Arctic_Slicer

Volt and Pinder arguing against the inclusion of Aether Vial in counterslivers stifled innovation for quite some by preventing the deck from reaching it's full potential. Loxodon Baileyarch has said himself that he hasn't played with vial in this deck but seems certain that it's no good so he dismisses outright instead of actually playing with it. This is an attitude that will only serve to stifle innovation.

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You're not understanding what i'm saying. RGW just doesn't need Vial, it's that simple. RGW's manabase is very very good, and it hasn't shitted on me once. Sure you can flash dudes into play, but that's just cute is all that is. Sure you can make the argument that i can save mana for burn or activated abilities, but i just don't think it's worth it. The deck wins fine on it's own. Against Dragon Stompy, Stax, whatever prison deck.

I completely agree that, hey, Vial seems pretty good in 4c, 5c lists, but it just isn't necessary in straight up RGW.

Okay. This is my first crack at this deck so please alert me to any glaring weaknesses. If there are, I'm sorry. I'm a landstill player.

4 kird ape
4 wild nacatl
2 isamaru, hound of konda
4 tarmogoyf
4 quasali pridemage
3 watchwolf
3 wooly thoctar

4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 lightning helix
4 fireblast

4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
3 taiga
3 savannah
3 plateau
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains

I know the four fireblasts seem poor with the manabase but I figure you want to make sure to see it around turn 4 and with seven mountains and eight fetches I see no reason not to be able to cast two in a game.

It's just that Fireblast isn't necessary at all, especially as a 4-of. Zoo doesn't need a finisher and going balls to the wall isn't Zoo's style. If Fireblast is countered, you are beyond fucked. I'd rather see you play some combination of PtE or StP in that slot.

Ah, okay. That leads me to more questions, which I want to preface with the fact that I've already read the entire thread. :smile:

1. Swords to plowshares screws your tempo, I get that. But doesn't path to exile do the same? Isn't that just one more blue source/top spin with counterbalance active that this deck just doesn't need? How do folks feel about more burn in that slot? Either rift bolt or incinerate I'm guessing, out of which I would prefer incinerate.

2. What's the consensus this week on grim lavamancer? Seems good but does pridemage kind of take his spot as far as the goyf war winner? I still like him and this deck does fill the graveyard quickly, so what's people view on him now? He's also another out to bridge from below if you've no pridemage handy.

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Originally Posted by Arctic_Slicer

The funny thing about Counterslivers is that for a long time champions of the deck on this forum, Volt and Pinder, poo pooed the inclusion of Aether Vial in that deck. They kept this attitude until Pinder actually tested the card in preparation for Grand Prix Columbus and came out and said that "Aether Vial is retardedly good". Since then a new thread has been made but this time the opening post now lists Aether Vial under "automatic maindeck cards" as a 4 of.

Volt and Pinder arguing against the inclusion of Aether Vial in counterslivers stifled innovation for quite some by preventing the deck from reaching it's full potential. Loxodon Baileyarch has said himself that he hasn't played with vial in this deck but seems certain that it's no good so he dismisses outright instead of actually playing with it. This is an attitude that will only serve to stifle innovation.

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One of the reasons that Vial is so good in counterslivers is that all of the dudes cost 2, so there is only one number to st the Vial at. Slivers also have abilities, such as granting shroud, which are more relevent than being big when vialing in a dude.

Merfolk is another deck which uses vial. Like slivers the dudes have relevant abilities, like pump abilities from lords. Goblins gets similar utility out of vial.

Now I have not tested vial in zoo, but it would seem to me that zoo really wants to play a dude on turn 1 so that it can attack on turn 2, before the opponent can play a big dude like Goyf. The dudes in zoo follow a curve, so you would have to make choices about how many counters to leave on vial. Also, other than Pridemage RGW Zoo does not play any utility dudes or lords which would benefit your team by being played at instant speed.

1) I haven't found Path to Exile's citp tapped land to be that big of a tempo fuck. Vs. Goyfs, Tombstalkers, and Terravores and the like, I'd prefer they get a tapped Island/Forest, than 5+ life. I'm running 3.

2) Comparing my list to yours, I'm running Lavamancer in Isamaru's spot. I guess it probably means a few times when I'm going to be swinging for 1 less turn 2, but it also comes up a lot that I'd have an Ape or Nacatl I'd rather play turn 1 anyway. I'd rather have too many ways to win Goyf wars than not enough. It also sometimes just randomly gets there for the last 4ish pts, when ground is stalled, ala Cursed Scroll. I'm running 3 of him as well.

I've used STP since i picked the deck up, and i just changed to PTE recently since it cost me like 5 games in one night. It's just so much better. You hardly ever use it unless it's your turn and you wanna attack. And if it's a kill shot, then it worked even better.

@ 3duece: Yeah the only thing i would suggest cutting from your list is Fireblast. It's really not necessary at all. I like Incinerate actually. If Chain start fucking with me too bad, i might add Incinerate. It's instant speed and gets rid of Spectral Lynx, which is being boarded in against me alot lately.

@ from Cairo: Yeah Isamaru is probably the next thing to be cut from the deck, i just can't bring myself to run Lavamancer though. I might actually add another Jitte. It's just that damned good. I could go -2 Isamaru, +1 Jitte, +1 Watchwolf, or something of the like.

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Originally Posted by 3duece

1. Swords to plowshares screws your tempo, I get that. But doesn't path to exile do the same? Isn't that just one more blue source/top spin with counterbalance active that this deck just doesn't need? How do folks feel about more burn in that slot? Either rift bolt or incinerate I'm guessing, out of which I would prefer incinerate..

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The main thing is that you just need answers to larger creatures that burn can't beat. You should know how many goyfs/tombstalkers/dreadnaughts are around. The life is not a drawback as much when you wouldn't be able to swing your creatures through an opponent's creature to begin with.

That said, I would recommend path over exile for many of the reasons stated. It helps their mana, but largely it doesn't matter; you'll probably kill them a full turn faster without them getting life. I also am a fan of running a combination of both to have a total greater than 4 sword effects, though I know people really like burn a lot.

@Loxodon: I think that the issue people are having is that you seem to be completely unopen to ideas or even discussion for zoo. To me at least it seems as if you were here at the start of the thread and as such have assumed ownership of the thread. That is, almost everything you think about zoo is right. (Although most the time I feel that your posts have little actual argumentation in them besides you staying your opinion.) I don't want to turn this thread into flames, I apologize if I'm being a little blunt, and I don't question that you've played the deck. However, this is the impression that I've gotten from you thus far and I think many other people expressing frustration probably feel the same way.

@ Valtrix: I don't own this thread, i just post in it alot. I make valid points every step of the way. Sure i may be a dick at times, but i make points. Just because someone else is better with words doesn't mean their right, and i feel like that's most of what this whole website is. People just bicker back and forth and then they start using big words trying to make themselves look good to the e-vironment instead of going straight to the issue. You people say i put little thought into my posts, it's just because i get straight to the point. It something seems bad, i'm gonna say it. I always get the argument over whether or not it's tested. I don't have time to sit around all day just to test Aether Vial in RGW Zoo. Sure it might help me out in a few situations, but at the end of the day, i know 100% that the deck is better without it. You all make fine points, but hey, i agree, Aether Vial is a good card. I don't doubt what it does or what it has done for you, i just don't understand how you anyone could think it's better for the RGW lists. And i could care less if people get frustrated. This deck has been assembled with the best cards it could be assembled by. The deck has a collective card pool, and dipping outside of it doesn't make sense to me.

Oh, also another question. Mogg Fanatic? I really like him and I often find him a pain in the ass to play against. How come more people don't run him around here?

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Originally Posted by 3duece

Oh, also another question. Mogg Fanatic? I really like him and I often find him a pain in the ass to play against. How come more people don't run him around here?

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He doesn't deal enough damage over the long run is the reason why i don't run him. Everything in my build is 2/2 or bigger. Mogg Fanatic is good against Dredge, and i could see him being ran in a more burn heavy list to squeeze out the unblockable little points of your opponent's life. He reminds me of like a Bee Sting creature lol.

This thread is extremely vague. It is important to remember that it's only a DTB because of this; the statistics that give 'Zoo' its winning percentages are not from one person's narrow list. Different types of Zoo are certainly viable, and we should all remember this when discussing what 'works' and what 'doesn't work'. That's just my 5 cents.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

This thread is extremely vague. It is important to remember that it's only a DTB because of this; the statistics that give 'Zoo' its winning percentages are not from one person's narrow list. Different types of Zoo are certainly viable, and we should all remember this when discussing what 'works' and what 'doesn't work'. That's just my 5 cents.

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The opening post is also RGW too. I would assume people would read the opening thread before hopping into discussions. If they wanted to make this an, every color of Zoo thread, i think they would have. They did it with Tempo Thresh and Countertop.

Ok, so the current list I'm testing with much success is on post #396. I've been getting land flooded too often, so to start out with, I'm dropping a Savannah. That leaves me with the hard decision of what single spell to add. Here's what I've been torn over:

- 4th Pridemage. I'm not sure this is necessary with Trygon around.

- Doran. Semi-prohibitive cost, but nothing 10 fetches and 4 Vials can't handle. As a bonus he also makes Ape, Goyf, and Trygon hit harder.

- Krosan Grip. Not much explanation necessary here. Again, might not be necessary with Pridemage and Trygon.

- Jund Charm. Or any of the Charms for that matter, though I feel Jund would have the most to offer. 2 damage to my own Bob/Sculler isn't too hot, though.

- Planeswalker. In particular Sarkhan, either Ajani, Elspeth, or Garruk. Could be interesting.

- Figure of Destiny/Isamaru. Eh.

- StP/PtE. Eh.

- Teeg/Grunt. Eh.

- Anything else. I'm open to suggestions.

I'm leaning more towards Doran or Sarkhan (his + ability seems to be most relevant to Zoo's general gameplan, and his - and ultimate aren't too shabby either).

Be advised, I'm not asking whether you like/approve of/would play my current list. I'm just asking for any suggestions on this single card choice. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Berzerked

Be advised, I'm not asking whether you like/approve of/would play my current list. I'm just asking for any suggestions on this single card choice. Thanks!

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Be more open seriously! Total joke btw.

And que deletion of post for not being relevant!

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

The opening post is also RGW too. I would assume people would read the opening thread before hopping into discussions. If they wanted to make this an, every color of Zoo thread, i think they would have. They did it with Tempo Thresh and Countertop.

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They changed the thread title for a reason...

Seriously, Zoo has been successful with a number of good versions. Your list shouldn't be set in stone and you should turn down every card that isn't in your list because you "don't like it".

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

Be more open seriously! Total joke btw.

And que deletion of post for not being relevant!

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So no suggestions?

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Originally Posted by Jak.

They changed the thread title for a reason...

Seriously, Zoo has been successful with a number of good versions. Your list shouldn't be set in stone and you should turn down every card that isn't in your list because you "don't like it".

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If you'll look back a few pages, you'll notice i just changed my list a week ago. I also admitted a few pages back, that Aether Vial seemed like a fine choice for versions of this deck. I don't turn down every card that isn't in my list, and when i do i make points as to why i do. So seriously, it's ok.

@ berserked: I don't really know 5c lists as well as i do RGW. I wouldn't run a combination of Trygon and Pridemage though. Teeg is awesome maindeck or Sideboard whichever. I ran him main for a while. PTE, and you already know why. Planeswalkers cost 4 mana or more and you can't Vial them, and you might not hit 4 land every game, so no to them lol.

About Trygon + Pridemage, people tell me not to do it all the time, but I consistently love the combo (second favorite only to Goyf + Confidant :tongue: , so you see, I'm stuck playing 5c) and I'm almost always happy to see either one or both. Plus I like the fact that Trygon has evasion.

You know I didn't even consider that fact that you can't Vial Plansewalkers. I obviously know this, but I guess it slipped my mind with all my current testing with Noble Hierarch and Elspeth in NQGw. Vial =/= mana :rolleyes:

Well, since you tried, I might as well post my RGW so you can get some action.

2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Watchwolf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Woolly Thoctar
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

56 cards. I'm going to test Vial just so I can prove to myself, at least, that it isn't worth it in 3c.
Other than that, what would you suggest I test in those slots? 2/2 Jitte/Scroll? Are you still backing Scroll?
I'll try PtE, though I'm going to maintain the mentality that I won't like it. We'll see.
I agree that Isamaru is weak, and he'd be long gone if I thought there was anything better to replace him with. I have tested Lavamancer, and have not liked him at all.

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Originally Posted by Berzerked

About Trygon + Pridemage, people tell me not to do it all the time, but I consistently love the combo (second favorite only to Goyf + Confidant :tongue: , so you see, I'm stuck playing 5c) and I'm almost always happy to see either one or both. Plus I like the fact that Trygon has evasion.

You know I didn't even consider that fact that you can't Vial Plansewalkers. I obviously know this, but I guess it slipped my mind with all my current testing with Noble Hierarch and Elspeth in NQGw. Vial =/= mana :rolleyes:

Well, since you tried, I might as well post my RGW so you can get some action.

2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Watchwolf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Woolly Thoctar
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

56 cards. I'm going to test Vial just so I can prove to myself, at least, that it isn't worth it in 3c.
Other than that, what would you suggest I test in those slots? 2/2 Jitte/Scroll? Are you still backing Scroll?
I'll try PtE, though I'm going to maintain the mentality that I won't like it. We'll see.
I agree that Isamaru is weak, and he'd be long gone if I thought there was anything better to replace him with. I have tested Lavamancer, and have not liked him at all.

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You're list is similar to the one i solemnly swear by, mine.

Yeah i've searched the Gatherer for a replacement for Isamaru and there just isn't one at the moment. I am backing Scroll, despite the fact that i don't use it anymore. I wanted to change it up a little, so i did. It's won me alot of games, and just squeezes in the little amounts of damage the deck needs when it's in hopeless late-game mode. It makes it more consistent.

Jitte is a must run in my opinion. It's like Bob, everytime i land it and it's unanswered it wins me the game. Hands down. I ramped it up to 12 last week!!!

PTE was just an answer to my prayers in terms of the replacement for STP. I've advocated STP, then slowly started moving towards PTE. It makes the deck fast in the sense that, hey they don't gain 5 life, bc STP is essentially a time walk because you have to have 2 attack steps to make up for the life.

Have you guys thought about Skyshroud Elite in the Isamaru slot? More conditional than Isamaru but at least Kird Ape size.

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Originally Posted by Berzerked

Be advised, I'm not asking whether you like/approve of/would play my current list. I'm just asking for any suggestions on this single card choice. Thanks!

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I really like that list, and I noticed you mentioned trying Magma Jet if you get manaflooded, did that not work out for you?

Thanks. Magma Jet is one of those cards I want to play a full set of, so I'm going to test -1 land for Doran, then if I keep getting flooded, I'll probably drop a Mire, the Doran (unless it turns out to be good enough to warrant dropping something else, though as a singleton, I doubt it), a Vindicate and a Sculler for the set of Jets.

Edit: Oh, and about Skyshroud, I just don't like his conditionality, especially with more and more decks able to fetch basics in an attempt to fight Wasteland and Moons. I feel like Isamaru is just better, and I would need to go up to 3 copies of him before adding Skyshroud (which is completely unecessary now that we have Nacatl).
That being said, one of the reasons I like Ape so much is his ass of 3, so I might as well test Skyshroud while I'm at it anyway.

@Berzerked: What are your thoughts of taking your original list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=396) and changing it as so:

-2 Windswept Heath
-1 Savannah

+2 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Bayou

Swapping out the Savannah for the Bayou because black is slightly more dominant (and important, imo) than white in your list (4 Confidant vs. 3 Pridemage) and dropping the fetchlands for Jitte. I realize that it's already on top of so much other removal, but Jitte does several important other things:
1. Speeds up your clock considerably.
2. Helps offset Bob damage (in case there's a ground stall for whatever reason)
3. Kills enemy Jittes.

Seems good to me, but I haven't been able to test your list yet. Have you tried it yet?

Just to give sme perspective in the color build discussion, in the goblin thread, we have no dificulties discussing MonoRed, Rb, Rg, Rbg and Rw, all in the same thread, because the deck focus doesen't change. Guss taht in here is kind of the same situation.
If someone posted a Food-Chain Goblins deck, it would belong to a diferent thread, becouse it has a diferent focus.
So I guess you have to stay open to every color.

For those trying the 4c-5c, have you considered Putrid Leech?

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Originally Posted by Dessyreqt

@Berzerked: Seems good to me, but I haven't been able to test your list yet. Have you tried it yet?

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I have not tested Jitte in 4-5c yet, and I'm currently in the process of testing it in 3c, so we'll see how I like it there.

Here's the color breakdown for that list:
W: 10 (4)
U: 2
B: 11
R: 12 (4)
G: 13 (4)

In parentheses are requirements for Ape and Nacatl.
As you can see, G is my most needed color, closely followed by R. That explains the 2 Taiga.
Superficially, B seems to be the next most needed, but if you count Nacatl's requirements, W is more needed. This was my logic when turning my manabase. Now, it may be that realistically B is more needed, but I haven't run into that problem yet.
As far as dropping 2 Heaths, no, they fetch everything except Badlands and Volcanic Island. Mire doesn't fetch Tropical and Savannah. If I were to drop a Savannah (which I would if reducing landcount), I can't drop a fetch that grabs it. So, I'd have to drop 1 Mire and 1 Savannah if I were to drop to 18 land. Both Heath and Mire fetch Bayou if I were to replace Savannah with Bayou, so I'd rather have Heath.

I do like the idea of Jitte, though, and will definitely try that out if I go to 18.

I have a question about the five color lists...It seems like the only thing that people use blue for is tribal flames, and trygon predator. I was just wondering if those two cards are really worth adding blue to the mix. It seems that pridemage nearly obsoletes predator, and that it seems like too much effort to try and set up a 5-damage tribal flames.

Exactly Valtrix, it's not worth it to open yourself to land hate/inconsistencies for such little reward.

i agree it does seem to wreck the mana base for just that 1 card.why not just run price of progress?it will do more damage to your opp. than you most of the time.

and what is the verdict on wasteland?
is it worth squeezing in?

I agree with you on PoP. I'm personally testing it but don't bring it up again. It's been discussed numerous times and we have some impatient folks on this here Zoo thread. Its just personal preference.

As for Wasteland, it seems poor. I haven't tested it but I feel as if all the lnads should produce colored mana for Ape and Nacatl. I wouldn't want to cut fetches and I definitely won't wanna cut threats.

Well, I think that it might be useful to narrow the debate down, if possible. It seems that there is a large argument of 3c vs. 4-5c. People are lumping 5c and 4c together, but I think that the two are way different, in terms of consistency (and somewhat cards). In that respect I would agree that 3c is better than 5c for sure, but I think it becomes a lot less clear when you're not splashing for much at all (ie, just confidant). I know the debate has been hashed out quite a bit, but I'd just like to point out that I think there needs to be a distinction between the two, because 4c is not nearly the same as 5c, and 4c is (usually) hardly different than 3c at all.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

I have a question about the five color lists...It seems like the only thing that people use blue for is tribal flames, and trygon predator. I was just wondering if those two cards are really worth adding blue to the mix. It seems that pridemage nearly obsoletes predator, and that it seems like too much effort to try and set up a 5-damage tribal flames.

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I play a singleton Tropical Island to boost Tribal Flames, Gaea's Might and Might of Alara. The domain pump spells cost 1 mana but can deal 5 damage so long as you have a creature to benefit from it. Also it means you have a way to kill fatties such as Tarmogoyf without having to resort to things like Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile. The pump spells are also really good with double strikers such as Viashino Slaughtermaster and Boros Swiftblade. Jitte is great here as well as the double strikers deal combat damage twice resulting in twice the number of counters put on Umezawa's Jitte.

I'm not really trying 4c right now, but yeah, putrid leech seems like it wouldn't be bad against a lot of the good decks right now. When you're the aggressor, it is a 4/4 body, and if a blue deck takes it, that's fine since they'll have to pay life to make it useful, which is exactly what you want them to do.

I've been playing with vial a bit, and I'm really starting to like it. EOT creatures is pretty great, and it's been helping a lot against blue.

So, I have a question for vial supporters: How many do you think is the right number? I've been discussing with one of my friends a bit, and he thinks that 3 seems better than 4. The reasoning is that we really don't need vial, even if it helps us. We can still have incredible starts without it, so it's not a necessity that we have to have it right away. By not running that 4th, we don't have to worry so much about drawing a second one and having it be a dead draw. (Because vial is really dead to us in multiples, unless you're facing heavy land-hate and need one at 1 and 2 for some reason.)

I guess I'm not exactly sure what I think about that. I guess I see the reasoning, but I feel like if we're running vial that we probably want the maximum of it, so that we can use it more often, but at the same time we're not able to abuse it quite as much, so it seems less vital to have the max. Also, I almost feel that 3 vials could swap out straight for lands if you're running 20 or 21 lands (maybe not quite 20...), which would mean we wouldn't even have to find something else to cut.

Will keep testing...

I run the allowed 4 of. Turn one Aether Vial is one of the strongest plays you can make in legacy and can often win you the game against certain decks. What you cut for the vial is up to you but most likely it will be something like 1-2 lands and 2-3 non-creature spells. Aether Vial works kind of like a mana accelerator so you can cut maybe one land for every two vials you put into your deck so you'll be running 18-19 lands instead of the usual 20-21. To make room for the other 2-3 vials you don't want to cut creatures as the vial only works on creatures so you cut 2-3 copies of your weakest other spells.

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Originally Posted by Guevera59

Exactly Valtrix, it's not worth it to open yourself to land hate/inconsistencies for such little reward.

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Amen.

@ joey223: Wasteland seems terrible. I know, here i go again dismissing cards. But in a deck where you need land types to make your dudes good, it doesn't seem good at all. I'm surprised that Brian Six guy did well with 3 random Wastelands just chilling. I guess bc his build was more Goyf Sligh-ish burn..

@ Guevera59: If i ever ran black in my build, i would run the hell out of Putrid Leech. He seems amazing. I haven't tested him, but 4/4s for 2 are good right?

I think Putrid Leech + Fetchlands + Dark Confidant is a lot of lifeloss. If I had to cut one, Putrid Leech would be the first to go. Look at the power of the other two drops in this deck. Putrid Leech isn't in the same league imho.




peace,
4eak

But then again, i don't like Dark Confidant.