[Deck] Dredge

...because people are too lazy, and don't read the whole thread (like always) =P


...dudes I have a problem... on the next Tournament I want to try something in Dredge... problem is, I need a bit space, but don't know what to cut =( ...

...do you think DA is essential for the success of the deck, or do you think, I can try to play without them? I mean, DA is a card that never overwhelmed me... IMO It's good in 1 of 10 games, in the other games it's more or less dead, but in that ONE game out of 10, it's really amazing, so I don't know...
What do you think of cutting DA? (you are boarding them out in nearly any game, anyway...)


YawG

Well, cutting Deep Analysis is kind of anti synergistic with the rest of the deck. You are playing Lion's Eye Diamond's and they become much less powerful with the absence of Deep Analysis. It is the inclusion of both of these cards that favor broken T1 wins. I do not know why you want to lose that potential?

I'm just curious what card you are trying to fit in the already tight list?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BackDr0p

Well, cutting Deep Analysis is kind of anti synergistic with the rest of the deck. You are playing Lion's Eye Diamond's and they become much less powerful with the absence of Deep Analysis. It is the inclusion of both of these cards that favor broken T1 wins. I do not know why you want to lose that potential?

I'm just curious what card you are trying to fit in the already tight list?

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I just wanted to say that T1 kill happens really less times that people might think.
You need a hand with : A LAND + Breakthrough + LED + Dredger(s).
Having these four is rare, and you also need to hit another dredger... And sometimes it will still fizzle.

In my testing, 1 Deep analysis was the best option. I never wanted to dredge two of them and I either had a witness for breaktrough or DA if I wanted to dredge better. I don't think I've lost any game because I didn't dredge DA.

Not to mention that DA will be boarded out against a high pourcentage of your match up...

True, however I was just speaking hypothetically. Anyways, why run 1 Deep Analysis at all. It works better in pairs, since you at least have a chance to realistically hit it when dredging. Even then, if you're just running one, might as well cut it completely and replace it with additional discard outlets.

Furthermore, Ichorid has to win G1, so that hate can be assessed G2 or beaten G2. If not, we duke it out G3. We reduce the chance of an explosive G1 win by cutting Deep Analysis, a spell which gives us the necessary speed to win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill

...because people are too lazy, and don't read the whole thread (like always) =P

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Which is why there's a search function at the top of the page. It takes less time to use than it does to type out a post asking a question that has already been answered.

About DA, it's probably the weakest two slots in the deck, but they're important game one and in matchups where you need to win as quickly as possible. If you're going to cut them, you might as well cut LED and run the LED-less version.

...but LED can also go nuts with Breakthrough & Coliseum or do some random-broken stuff with Witness... also, I don't like LEDless even when we are boarding out LED and DA most of the time...

I just try to make space for 2 SH +1 EW in the mainboard, but I think, somehow I fail =P

...list would be something like this:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Bridge From Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return

2 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Eternal Witness

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City Of Brass

////
4 Chain Of Vapor
4 Firestorm
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 City Of Brass

...maybe exchange 1 Unmask with 1 Firestorm Main/Side



YawG

I'm not trying to sound like an ass, but what purposes are you using witness for? without a huge combo finish and witness to tie into FKZ to keep going, then I don't see a reason to have it in there. From what I understood, the reason 2 hypno are in there is so that you can see one without have to fully "go off" and with the zombies you have, you can just rape their hand and then win the game.....

Witness is an allaround card IMO, and can do tons of things...

...and postboard, you can fish for dredged sideboardcards...



YawG

I am having some problems with aggro decks like goblins and zoo or sligh even the first match. They have many ways to remove our bridges. Suggestions?
Btw I was thinking of Leyline of the Void as a sideboard card so they can't remove our bridges. Thoughts?

Just came from a little tournament, i played Ichorid; parchers build only thing different is that i still played 1 FKZ and 1 EW MD instead of hypno's.
Quick reported of matches (might do a report of matches later if someones interested)
Round 1: Goblins 2-0
Round 2: Team America 2-0
Round 3: Death and taxes (3 colors) 0-2 due to insanely bad dredges, had 30+ cards in grave, no ichorids,no bridges, 1 moeba...
Round 4: Domain Zoo 2-0

Top 4:
Quarterfinals: Death and taxes again (same as round 3) 2-0
Finals: Merfolk both tired so we ID.

Pretty satisfied with the deck, especially after mulling to 2 against TA and then win with 1 hp left :laugh:

~Maarten

Isnt Ichorid a DTB?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1maarten1

,especially after mulling to 2 against TA and then win with 1 hp left :laugh:

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:eek: wtf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yesmilord

:eek: wtf

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Yup that was me. It was nice topdeck all my Sinkholes, Wastelands and THoughtseizes instead of creatures that round.

Benie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yesmilord

:eek: wtf

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Yep was lucky, he drawed bad, i hit some nice dredges at the end, still funny tho :smile:

Today I played a list like parchers at a 50 player tournament here in germany. Changes were -2 Hypnotists, -3 Unmask // + Zaelot, Primus, Sphinx, 2 Tribe
The deck performed perfect but I had a lack of luck....so I went only 3-2 drop. Adan performed with Parchers list better and placed 3rd.

Rd1 vs Mono Black Rats (?)
g1 primus wasted his manabase so his crypt rats can`t stop zombies
g2 I cound handle 2 relicts..then the 3rd came..gg
g3 same as the first game;) 1-0

Rd2 vs YinYang
g1 quick game - won
g2 he boarded 4 leyline (found non of them), 3plague, 4 extirpate
short game thanks to my first turn tribe, followed by a second turn breakthr. with 4 trolls....in resp he extirpated my ichorids....but with my remaining moebas I cast my primus again destroyed his manabase and won by the way 2-0


Rd3 vs BGW Rock
g1 horrible game I had only bad dredges and found no early bridge and additional dredger... than he found jitte and the game was over -

g2 I didn`t board...amazing hand with led, analysis, dredgers, breakth., land, result a second turn kill (first turn I stripped his hand with 3 therapys)

g3 again the jitte and bad dredges lead to my loss 2-1

Rd4 vs Red Thresh (found no notes about the game..but again primus was a house)
g1 DDD plan won

g2 unexpected crypt killed me

g3 won the game without a bridge.... icho beatdown was enough 3-1

Rd 5 vs Dragon Stompy

g1/g2 first turn trinisphere and fast keldons, rakdos, magus finished me off.... no chance at all in both games

Props:
The deck was amazing - primus worked fantastic
adans performance .... and nice pairings for him

bad things:
Dragon Stompy matchup - here I wished the first time to have the unmasks in the deck ....
jitte....I hate this shit..even with 4 SB grudges....

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [OD] Careful Study

list like that made top8 in 100 man tournament

I also won a tournament (26ppl) with Parcher's 75 yesterday.

Faced Goblins (2-0), Solidarity (2-1), CounterTop (2-0), Landstill (2-0), and Enchantress (ID, though he beat the crap out of me in our fun matches).
While the deck performed admirably and I didn't not have to mulligan much, I was wondering if you guys would advice to get Ray of Revelation back into the sideboard. I was thinking, although Enchantress is a seldom seen matchup, the Chain of Vapors mostly answer Leyline and Jailer, one of which Ray also answers. Both a seldom seen as well, anyway.
So maybe one could go -1 (or 2?) Chain, + Ray of Revelation if expecting Enchantress?
Or are there uses of Chain I am missing?

I am building Ichorid atm, I read all the thread but I'm still unsatisfied of the sideboard.
What is the most currently used sideboard now?
Btw do any of you play Careful Study? I tried it, but took it away really soon because I find it's the worst slot in the deck. Quite useless really, maybe it could be useful postboard, but both the main and the side boards look really tight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serbitar

I also won a tournament (26ppl) with Parcher's 75 yesterday.

Faced Goblins (2-0), Solidarity (2-1), CounterTop (2-0), Landstill (2-0), and Enchantress (ID, though he beat the crap out of me in our fun matches).
While the deck performed admirably and I didn't not have to mulligan much, I was wondering if you guys would advice to get Ray of Revelation back into the sideboard. I was thinking, although Enchantress is a seldom seen matchup, the Chain of Vapors mostly answer Leyline and Jailer, one of which Ray also answers. Both a seldom seen as well, anyway.
So maybe one could go -1 (or 2?) Chain, + Ray of Revelation if expecting Enchantress?
Or are there uses of Chain I am missing?

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During the last few tournaments I pretty much found out that Chain is important against Aggroloam. I didn't board them at September's Hassloch tourney and got my face bashed in by a gigantic Terravore. Against Aggroloam they are important to buy time as well as Unmasks which can also dispose one of their fatties or Seismic Assaults. Chain+Unmasks/Therapies are the nuts obv.

I guess it's the versatility that counts. If the Enchatress Player performs double Sterling Grove, you're fucked anyway

Won my first tournament for 1 year with parcherdredge(haven´t played it for that time) and it felt kinda nice.
Won against Bant(2-0), Crap-Elves(2-0), ITF cause he concede(went for some food) and Goblins. What I have problems with so far is the postboard game against ITF. In testing I lost most of the games due to the total unfairness of 3rd turn Intuition->Ruins-lock :(
I boarded:
1 City
2 Tribe
3 Grudge
-4 LED
-2 DA

I know that it´s not very relevant, but as we only have ~16 players and he´s one of the best I have to play him often...What would you consider the best strategie? Just don´t board and hope to defeat him fast enough he can´t get a Crypt?
The games were usually like that I raped his hand and he found Crypt with BS and/or Top.
Without A.Ruins Lock the MU would be sooo easy despite Crypts and all the other stuff but the lock just sets a clock at us :S
What to do?

Apart from that: Parcher, You Rock :D

is the list in the 1st post or the list from the 5k in which parcher top16ed (the one with hypnotists) the parcher list that everyone's using?

The list that everyone is using is this one (the list from the 5K):


4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge From Below

4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Unmask
3 Dread Return
2 Sadistic Hypnotist
2 Deep Analysis

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City Of Brass

////


4 Chain Of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Unmask
1 City Of Brass


It seems to be highly optimized, until new cards/techs come out =P


YawG

Question:

The lone City in the sideboard...could you elaborate on its function/when it is used and for what?

...you board it in against Decks that have mandenial, and mostly you board it in, when you are boarding Tribes / Grudges to have 1 more source that produces rainbowmana...

The boarding techs against most of the decks are also listened in this thread, all orginally written by Parcher:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=325
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=341


YawG

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johanessen

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [OD] Careful Study

list like that made top8 in 100 man tournament

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This list belongs in the LED Less List none the less it is kind of cool, but seems a little slow to actually combat the current meta game.

So I just want to go on and say damn you parcher for making a damn good primer so that every smuck on these forums can pick of this deck and be some what competent at this deck which has made it much more popular. Making the already good players job a little harder cuz now everyone is preparing for this damn deck....grrrrr:tongue:

Uhh............thanks? Ummm...I'm sorry....I guess?

Yeah everyone is preparing for this deck because without GY hate, the matchup is very hard for the opponent to win unless you are combo or white stax. People have always known this deck is here and if they haven't then they will eventually unless they're purely local legacy players.

2 Sadistic hypnotist in the list Yawgmoth's Will posted seems odd to me. I would play 1 hypno and 1 e. witness, cephalid sage, or FKZ depending on what I expected. The situations where you don't dredge a DR target into the yard if it's a 1-of are few and inbetween; you can always just reanimate a GGT and if they don't answer that your opponent will lose. But DR is not just to return a creature card it's also the best sack outlet the deck has and the only one apart from cabal therapy and everyone knows ichorid sacks itself without relying on anything else.

As for scrubs lurking this forum and knowing exactly how to pilot the deck no you can't simply pick this deck up for the first time and win a big tournament with it because when it comes to boarding you shall be at a loss and as to what hands to keep it isn't exactly intuitive to every ichorid pilot out there.

I'm playing this deck from a short period of time, but as the current list seems (Parcher's 75) it's much lesser combo than the one I play.
I won't cut FKZ because I just love him and also I won't cut a Sage/Witness/Whatever because I want to continue dredging to win instead of waiting a few turns!
Btw I never tried SH because I still don't have them available. Ripping the opponent's hand seems good, but I think Iona could deserve a spot. Name a color, stop playing it! If she is dread returned against some MUs she's just game breaking!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pippo84

I'm playing this deck from a short period of time, but as the current list seems (Parcher's 75) it's much lesser combo than the one I play.
I won't cut FKZ because I just love him and also I won't cut a Sage/Witness/Whatever because I want to continue dredging to win instead of waiting a few turns!
Btw I never tried SH because I still don't have them available. Ripping the opponent's hand seems good, but I think Iona could deserve a spot. Name a color, stop playing it! If she is dread returned against some MUs she's just game breaking!

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2x Hypno's main deck is the tits. Basically, it makes FKZ irrelevant because it isn't difficult to Return him with 2, 3 or more tokens with which to sac on turn 2. You empty their hand, and it is basically game over. They're in topdeck mode, and you can carefully dredge your way into a win. Worst case scenario he ends up in your opening hand, best case he's out in turn one or two crushing your opponent's hand, in the middle he's Ichorid food. Really, give it a shot. She is game breaking verses all matchups when properly put into play. No hand = GG, i don't care what deck you are playing unless it is a dredge mirror. Leave FKZ maindeck for a same turn dredgeabunch win, but do make room for two Hypno's.

In Legacy, Hypnotist is the best way to win on the earlier turns. It happened so many times that I found myself dredging enough Moebas, but not enough Bridges (i.e. just 1) to win with FKZ. But 1 single Bridge is already enough to win since you can take all your opponent's resources with Hypnotist where FKZ would do nothing.

The same is true for situations where the opponent might remove a few Bridges with a Mogg Fanatic or a Burnspell on their own creature. You won't be able to go the FKZ-route with just 1 Bridge remaining in your Library, but that were the moments where the Hypnotist still stole the wins for me.

For Legacy, I'd advocate for Hypnotist anytime, but not in Vintage (but that's a different story).

Ok, I'll try hypnotist as soon as they will arrive (none available at le local stores!!).
Another question that may seem stupid. I can't understand why play unmask in the main deck. I think it's a great card, but a sideboard one.
What worries you of the first match? Force of Will? You have cabal therapy!
With my current list I almost always win the first match at the second turn, sometimes the first and rarely the third..
With this clock I can't understand the use of unmask main..
If some one can please explain me better..

If you never have to mull and never face cards like Humility, EE, Deed etc. AND always have Therapy to handle FOW...then...sure...cut Unmasks :)

I still have the same question about itf: How to SB correctly? I won 9-0 preboard and then lost ~2-10 postboard but not only because BS+Top hiding Crypts is mean but also because I always mulled into oblivion(i.e. 3-4cards) because I never had land+discardoutlet.
The boarding looks like this:
-4 LED
-2 DA
-1 Hypno
+1 Unmask
+3 Grudge
+2 Tribes
+1 City

Is it just bad luck or does the deck get fewer lands if you add one...? I´m a little bit confused since I really want to win this Matchup.

Thoughts on this,

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Deep Analysis
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
1 Eternal Witness
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 City of Brass

SB

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Unmask
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation


Basic idea, replace Putrid Imp with Bloodghast, choose to draw and concentrate on going off ASAP with LED + Coliseum and LED + Breakthrough/Careful Study into Deep Analysis , or concentrate on DDD with 4 more recurring creatures. Game 2, transformational SB into LEDless Dredge and play around Relic/Crypt. Haven't tested IRL, but I played a similar deck with Nether Shadow a long time ago and it managed to be marginally successful. I really like the concept, because you're straddling the line between slow rolling aggro-control and blowing your load vs aggro game 1. And game 2, you're cutting LED/Breakthrough and just using Pimp/Tribe to grind your way thru' hate with more gas in the tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Thoughts on this,

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Deep Analysis
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
1 Eternal Witness
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 City of Brass

SB

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Unmask
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation


Basic idea, replace Putrid Imp with Bloodghast, choose to draw and concentrate on going off ASAP with LED + Coliseum and LED + Breakthrough/Careful Study into Deep Analysis , or concentrate on DDD with 4 more recurring creatures. Game 2, transformational SB into LEDless Dredge and play around Relic/Crypt. Haven't tested IRL, but I played a similar deck with Nether Shadow a long time ago and it managed to be marginally successful. I really like the concept, because you're straddling the line between slow rolling aggro-control and blowing your load vs aggro game 1. And game 2, you're cutting LED/Breakthrough and just using Pimp/Tribe to grind your way thru' hate with more gas in the tank.

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I'm pretty sure you've found a way to neuter the deck. Main deck Unmasks, as well as Pimps are all but necessary to insure you have two of the four D's necessary to pwn face. Honestly, Parcher's 75 is the best route plus or minus 2-5 cards. Bloodghast is mroe Extended than Legacy for dredge.

So, this is Parcher's 75. Let's say I want 1 space for FKZ because I just like it. What should I cut?
Btw I run 1 less Coloseum for another rainbow land because often I wanted to cast PImp and found myself stuck with the wrong color land..



4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge From Below

4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Unmask
3 Dread Return
2 Sadistic Hypnotist
2 Deep Analysis

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City Of Brass

////


4 Chain Of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Unmask
1 City Of Brass

Btw is that City of Brass really needed in the SB? Not sure of it, but at first glance it seems quite random to me..

I asked the same question a page or two back. It is in there for the board, to help cast Tribes, Firestorm, and Pimps easier. Another possible sideboard card is Iona.

If you look at the boarding guides and whatnot, you'll see that it comes in game 2(most of the time) when you board in more discard outlets(tireless tribe) to play around (insert name of hate here). The extra land helps you cast those discard outlets and some of your anti-hate in game 2.

EDIT: what jandax said... i'm dumb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NQN

If you never have to mull and never face cards like Humility, EE, Deed etc. AND always have Therapy to handle FOW...then...sure...cut Unmasks :)

I still have the same question about itf: How to SB correctly? I won 9-0 preboard and then lost ~2-10 postboard but not only because BS+Top hiding Crypts is mean but also because I always mulled into oblivion(i.e. 3-4cards) because I never had land+discardoutlet.
The boarding looks like this:
-4 LED
-2 DA
-1 Hypno
+1 Unmask
+3 Grudge
+2 Tribes
+1 City

Is it just bad luck or does the deck get fewer lands if you add one...? I´m a little bit confused since I really want to win this Matchup.

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That's just due to the variance of the probability distribution. It just happens sometimes. I played Parcher's 75 3 times in a row, 4-1-1, 5-0 and then 2-2 drop.
Ichorid is a inconsistent deck but in exchange offers you ridiculous power. And well, sometimes the inconsistency may resurface and that's what you should just call a bad day. :wink:

But ITF should be okay, even postboard. It basically has got the same amount of relevant cards like Threshold plus 3 Deeds. Make sure to Therapy Intuitions! Otherwise he will do the Crypt-Ruins-Loam pile and you then you're doomed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jandax

I'm pretty sure you've found a way to neuter the deck. Main deck Unmasks, as well as Pimps are all but necessary to insure you have two of the four D's necessary to pwn face. Honestly, Parcher's 75 is the best route plus or minus 2-5 cards. Bloodghast is mroe Extended than Legacy for dredge.

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I'm sorry, what? MD Unmask is inefficient, IMO, because there's no counter you can't DDD around and there's no card that removes the yard game 1. Are you guys not auto-drawing for Threshold and DDD anymore? Also, whether or not Pimp is necessary is kind of debatable, it's necessary if you're playing non-LED Dredge style where you want to go first to play outlet, play draw card and beat down. If cutting Pimp for another creature improves DDD to the point where you don't really need Pimp game 1, it seems a lot better.

That said, anybody who plays the deck seriously have thoughts?

:stink-eye:

- Bardo