What I mean to say is cards like Grim Monolith and Land Tax should be thoroughly tested to see if they could really break the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
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What I mean to say is cards like Grim Monolith and Land Tax should be thoroughly tested to see if they could really break the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
They just gave us the largest Magic tournament in the history of Magic tournaments, and you think they hate Legacy?:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Legacy had enough shake up when they unban Entomb, Dream Halls and Metalworker.
There is just not enough time passed to shake it again, so I agree with No Changes this time.
I don't know that I'd go so far as "hate for the format", but I am a bit surprised that after the successful unbanning of Entomb, Metalworker and Dream Halls that they didn't go for another round of unbanning cards. Does anyone really think having added two more competitive decks (Reanimator and Dream Halls) to Legacy has been bad for the format? Now, I wouldn't go so far as to point to a this no change announcement as an indication of hatred for the format, but I do think that they could exercise a little more of their "we want people to be able to play with their cards" creed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Well, I kinda agree with them not unbanning anything. Entomb just had it's big showing and the format should find out whether Reanimator really is that unbeatable behemoth (which I believe it isn't) and how to hate against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MMogg
Next 1-2 updates, the format will have settled down and Reanimator will be integrated, so then we are ready for another unbanning.
I call it, the next changes will happen on the September announcements
Most people seem to think that Top is the card that should be banned, but honestly Top is a fun card to play with, it just isn't fun in conjunction with counterbalance. With Dark Confidant or in Reanimator or Tendrils it is fine. So why not just ban counterbalance in that case? The problem is that combo would be to good. I have thought of another solution of solving the problem, namely to ban Ad Nauseaum which is what makes the combo deck a little to fast. It would be more interesting with combo decks solidarity or fetchland tendrils, or even better, Dream Halls or Aluren. If AD Nauseaum would be banned, Counterbalance would become worse, and hence see less play. People can handle countertop in other fashions, like Engineered Explosives, Humility, Spell Snare or whatever. What are your comments?
Sensei's Divining Top can stall games to a point where it's easy to abuse. I believe that's the reason why it got banned in Extended, why is this not the case for Legacy?
Because Legacy didn't see Dark Confidant, Top, and Counterbalance printed in back-to-back-to-back sets without the rest of the legacy card-pool to balance it out. Essentially, Ext had become CB.dec and would probably be for years to come (At least until after next season when Top will finally rotate out of Ext). In fact, you could include Goyf to make the four core cards of the deck being printed in four consecutive sets... the same core of Legacy and occasionally Vintage decks was Ext legal, and it was too much. The high power level (everyone will play this deck!) combined with the fact that it was a slow deck a lot of the time made it die. In Legacy, top.dec slowing down a tourney is not as common (although it can still occur of course) due to the larger amount of viable decks and decks that can beat itQuote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
You mean to say blocks, not sets. Other than that, pretty spot-on.Quote:
Originally Posted by walkerdog
Because we don't have as many assholes and the general speed of the format is faster?
In all seriousness, banning SDT would have dire ramifications for the format. In addition to Countertop being a lynchpin of the format, SDT makes a whole host of Tier 2 midrange decks viable. I think that Legacy is a well balanced format and that unless that changes, there is no reason to monkey with a format that isn't fully developed or unbalanced unless you can definitively show that the change would be an improvement.
If you ban Ad Nauseaum, unban Mind's Desire. I mean, it's 4UU which costs more than Ad Nauseaum, isn't in the primary ritual colors, and doesn't dig as deep. It's a perfect way to make combo slower (cause they need more time to get more mana cause it costs more). Right?Quote:
Originally Posted by takfort
The one extra colorless mana won't slow combo down that much. The fact that Mind's Desire costs double blue instead of black will pose a bit of a problem I suppose.
I was more making a parody of the quoted post (arguing that banning AdN will make CB/Top see less play) by using, while true, very poor reasoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey
SDT isn't bannable, as is one of the few things that keep control alive, at least the "purest" form of it. I've already voiced it, but if we want to see less blue and less combo there's only one way: ban brainstorm. Or else, island.
i don't see your parody as very strong reasoning either. ANT is a little bit to strong right now, and banning AdN would make sense. Many decks can handle Countertop, but not many decks can handle the storm deck going off. Even if there are many combo decks right now there is little reason to play another one than ANT. If you don't agree, please post your arguments instead of posting a parody. I thought the Minds desire idea was quite interesting, but maybe that card is to strong too. I don't play extended so don't know how strong it is.
Because your reasoning is that if combo is weakened, CB/Top will see less play. That won't be the case. In the 'Attacking is Miserable' thread, it's been argued back and forth why AdN/ANT is strong, but doesn't perform well. It's not the huge concern that some people are making it out to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by takfort
So adapt. Change your lineup. Kill/disrupt before they can go off. If a storm deck is going off, yeah, it's hard to handle...because that's when, more often than not, they're winning. You go for the throat before they reach that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by takfort
My MBC deck can't handle CB/Top very well, so we should ban that card.
There is, because ANT can be hard to pilot. Ichorid is in the DTBF.Quote:
Originally Posted by takfort
Or you could read the thread I mentioned, where many more concise, knowledgeable posts have been made.Quote:
Originally Posted by takfort
Ok this was better. Of course countertop would see a little less play if Tendrils would be a little bit worse, which is ok. I don't want countertop to dissappear completely. But countertop has problem with many decks, like Dredge, Goblins, Landstill and merfolk so it will not be the obvious choice for a tournament, but a good one although. This is not the main argument for banning AdN though.
In my area people are starting to become so good at legacy that piloting a ANT-deck is not a huge problem. If the stormdeck was just a little bit worse, it would bring really good balance to the format. Since legacy doesn't rotate the number of viable decks needs to be really high to remain popular. Right now for the first time in a long time, a few decks have really stood out as the best decks, and some decks are cute and funny but not really competitive for a large tournament. This is not good for the format. It can be ok in Standard where it always is temporary.
I don't consider dredge as a combo deck. It belongs to its own category, but this doesn't really matter. Sure dredge is a good deck I could bring to a tournament. This deck is much much easier to hate out than ANT though, and is also more inconsistent, which keeps it in check.
To ban a card like SDT is very risky since it is so widely played and could have huge negative impact on the format, but banning a less influential card like AdN is more cautious, and makes it easier to predict the consequences.
Even merfolk has trouble stopping ANT which is quite sick as it is an monoblue aggro-control deck that should theoretically beat it consistently. You usually need some kind of permanent to stop ANT (chalice, counterbalance) because it is difficult to stop it with daze and fow. But you all think it is completely stupid to ban AdN and that it doesn't make any sense? If that's the case, so be it. It was just a thought anyway.
Entomb is not the problem, Iona is!
She is just soooo powerful against mono colored removal that it really breaks the intention of the format. It punishes people for playing fewer colors and give quick random wins against them reducing deck diversity.
Have you guys heard that the sky is falling?
What are you talking about?
It is? Oh shit! When?
Tinker isn't the problem, Inkwell Leviathan is, because it's so much better at having shroud and Islandwalk.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoCk0nd0pe
She also costs nine mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoCk0nd0pe
Was the intention of the format to play monocolored decks that can't do anything until turn 9?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoCk0nd0pe
A nine mana creature doesn't punish anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoCk0nd0pe
Turn nine, really? That's not quick at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoCk0nd0pe
Yea, with the printing of fall, the sky is obviously too powerful, and will likely be banned in the next announcement. It is twisting the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Tartell
Lately, I've been thinking of how strong unbanned gush would be in the format. I'm sure we can safely say that most of Gush's power in vintage came from it's absurd interaction with Yawgmoth's Will and Fastbond. Say that if Gush was unbanned, correct me if I'm wrong, that some sort of Gush Tendrils deck wouldn't be viable due to the lack of aforementioned cards. I'm guessing that would leave Gro-a-Tog as the de facto best Gush deck. What would that do to the metagame, I wonder? You can reasonably assume the death of other Aggro-Control decks because GAT just does it better and faster. Also having a real draw engine is pretty nice as well. GAT also creates a very good check for Combo-ish decks.
Does anyone think that Gush would be overcentralizing? I think there are checks to Gush decks but is it enough? I'm not sure, but certainly an interesting thought exercise!
Stasis would be running wild!
Thankfully they printed stuff like Krosan Grip and Pyroblast, REB. In fact with an unbanned Gush I think REB and the like gain quite a bit.
Gush would certainly enable some Doomsday combo. I'm not sure if it would be degenerate, but it would probably be stronger than existing builds.
I highly doubt an unbanned Gush would bring anything healthy to the format. Things would warp even more toward Blue, likely Ur for the aforementioned blasts. After the madness of unrestricting/re-restricting it in Vintage, I don't see Gush ever getting unbanned.
We don't have Fastbond to abuse it with, although I do agree that it would enable Doomsday like crazy.
At one point in time I actually forgot that Gush wasn't legal in this format, and I threw together a UGw thresh list with Gush in it. It is, in fact, the nut high. This was pre-warmonk so I was running something like 4 Q-dryad, 4 Goyf and 2 mongoose as my creature base, and the card advantage the deck got was so impossibly good that I ended up running misdirection because I had no problems with 6+ pitch spells. The gush-thresh deck is absolutely nutsy, and if gush was unbanned it would easily warp the format. I only got as far as testing it against a combo deck and a few elgin-ish control decks before myself and my friend realized gush was banned, but in all the games we played I might have lost two. I was actually really excited to see gush play against wastelands as well, but I figured out my mistake before we started testing against tempo decks.
Tee hee. I forgot about the use of Doomsday. Gush would be nutty as heck in that deck.
This. The card basically says "Add U/G/B/R/W to your mana pool : Draw two cards."Quote:
Originally Posted by whienot
Anybody who thinks that's a reasonable card in Legacy is a nutjob.
Hold on a second: is anyone seriously considering G-U-S-H?
Gush?
Gush!?
No, just leave it be. Gush would be so degenerate in any blue deck... it was unrestricted in Vintage for a short while, which resulted in idiotic Gro-A-Tog aggro nonsense decks to rampaging the meta, curb stomping the shit out of anything that pissed in it's cheerios that morning. Making Gush legal in this format would be like making Flash legal in this format.
No, just no.
Unban Grim Monolith, Mind Twist, stuff like that. Those cards deserve to be unbanned.
Leave Gush the hell alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Mmm, Psychatog. And Mongrel. I wouldn't mind some of that action, although I guess we'd have to go way back for it. I certainly agree that Gush is most likely unsafe to unban.
It's just a "what if" secenario, I obviously wasn't making a case for unbanning it. I mean we can talk about unbanning Land Tax all day long but, honestly, that's not even a discussion. It's just boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meekrab
This reminds me, I stopped by a local store a couple days ago and they were selling a Grim Monolith for $30. What a deal!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stewart
Think they'll buy them for 20 then? I got 9 collecting dust.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrsthethird
Seriously, how dangerous is Grim Monolith? Combo has gotten much faster since the days of Power Artifact, and Stax looks like the only deck that could even use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrsthethird
Grim Monolith is pretty benign. It's decent accel for Stax based decks but doesn't solve any problems that plague the deck.