-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
You could always set up something like we have at our store. I donate a ton of commons and uncommons because I typically buy a playset of those when a new set comes out so anything I get after that is extra. We put them in this little machine you put in a quarter and get some random assortment of cards out of.
Since it's not worth it to get only commons and uncommons, the store owner puts in stuff like actual duals and some other goodies every so often. That stupid machine is a hit and spreads the good cards among the kids since most experienced players steer clear of that thing. I've seen people use grab bags in a similar fashion.
If you want the kids to get in, you should ask the store owner to try it. It's amazing how much money that little thing makes. It's hard to get the good stuff, but it does happen and it's almost always a kid who gets it. Now if we can just keep the assholes from trading the good stuff off those kids for nothing.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Wohhaa...
I just checked some prices of cards (magickartenmarkt.de), I didnt check for some time and guess what I saw on some cards? nearly 100% increase.
Natural Order VI nm: 24 EUR (33 USD), few months ago (after Progenitus hype has settled already) this was at 12 EUR. What happened here???
Volrath's Stronghold nm: 11 EUR. wtf? I got it for 5 EUR. This is only a 1-off in few decks.
Lion's Eye Diamond: same as NO.
Survival of the Fittest: 14 EUR... got mine for 7 EUR 5 years ago.
Force of Will: 25 EUR... Wasn't this at ~16-17 for ages??
Sinkhole: see FoW
all the others mentioned already increased by ~100%, too (Mox Diamond, Wasteland, ...)
Than I saw this thread and recognized, I am not alone obviously...
Strangeley enough, Exploration or Grim Lavamancer didn't increase. Someone mentioned it already.
@loveisgreen: I also lol'ed at Scroll Rack....
This is just insane...
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nightmare
I don't understand the difference between "I own 8 Seas, and loan 4 out when 'jimmy' needs them" vs "I own 4 seas, and I traded 4 to 'jimmy' who now owns 4 Seas." Both examples result in 2 decks running Underground Sea in a given event. How does one example drive the price of the cards up, and the other does not? In both examples, there are two sets of seas in the environment. In both examples, access is equal to the two sets of Seas for these players. In both examples, the third player, playing Watery Graves, is fucked. How is that Umbowta's fault?
Well this is getting a bit abstract but my point is and always was not about a single person but about the scene/market in general:
The problem with lending opposed to ownership, is that all cards are at one location and people have to be in some form of contact with the guy who loans out decks. Its much more common that we lend stuff to people we know and trust and are often legacy players themselves than lending cards/decks to people who just learn the format. If there are no people with lots of cards in your area the prices are still high. Not sitting on staples would help to distribute cards more evenly.
Also as I said, there are in fact a lot of people who don't loan out cards and decks. If you have U-Seas and Jimmy has U-Seas you could both play. If you have 8 U-Seas and don't lend or trade 4 because you don't want to shift your 4 between decks Jimmy has a problem. If you have 8 U-Seas and you and Jimmy don't know each other, Jimmy also has a problem.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shugyosha
If there are no people with lots of cards in your area the prices are still high. Not sitting on staples would help to distribute cards more evenly.
If you have U-Seas and Jimmy has U-Seas you could both play. If you have 8 U-Seas and don't lend or trade 4 because you don't want to shift your 4 between decks Jimmy has a problem. If you have 8 U-Seas and you and Jimmy don't know each other, Jimmy also has a problem.
On the first point, if someone isn't willing to spend the money for whatever the "market" says the value of seas is, it doesn't matter whether I have 100 or 1000 duals. I'll happily trade my seas - but if we don't live in the same town, or bump into each other at a PTQ, it's not helping you out, and my collection has no effect on the value of cards in your town. There will never be an even distribution, or anything even close to it. For example, America currently has more duals than Europe. It shouldn't be my responsibility to be their supplier. That's what stores are for. I don't know about your town, but the Legacy players in my area are generally pretty free with loaning out staples (for the duration of an event), since it encourages players to play optimized decks. If you need to come up with your fourth Tropical Island, there's usually someone at the Legacy event you can bum one off from for the night - whether they know you or not - which addresses the second point. There's usually a chain of trust that extends beyond "I know you, you know me." Of course, we also just had an incident where an alleged thief got the shit kicked out of him - in the store - during the Worldwake release, so trustworthiness is valued highly in our area - with consequences for those who breach it.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shugyosha
Don't you understand the basic principle of the market? High demand and low supply leads to high prices.
Yes actually I do. Macroeconomics was a required course for my Political Science minor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shugyosha
Now don't you think that a lot of people including you are (among other reasons) responsible for low supply when sitting on staples you really don't need to play in a tournament.
No. I believe that speculators are inducing artificial demand on the market thus causing unfairly and artificially high prices. According to some numbers I saw recently, there are greater than 70,000 playsets of each dual and less than 30,000 registered eternal players. 70,000 divided by 30,000 is approximately 2.3 playsets, or 9 of each dual available per registered eternal player. I am a registered eternal player and an avid casual player. I play the game with cards that were printed by the manufacturer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shugyosha
If some guy next to you would complain that he needs U-Seas but can't find anybody who wants to trade or sell their playset does it feel right to you to complain about high prices?
Yes, it does. Willy Everplay can't get anyone to trade/sell him their stuff because Sammy Speculator is willing to pay more than Willy. So Joe Blow sells his extra stuff to Sammy and poor Willy gets shafted. In the meantime, I'm willing to lend some cards to Willy so he doesn't have to partake in the current price bubble. As a matter of fact, I lent out my entire 4c Abyss Control deck at the tournament I played in 2 weeks ago.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
With the increasing popularity of the format, would Wizards *really* be stupid to reprint Legacy staples in premium sets? People just keep saying that it will be like Chronicles again, with players complaining about the drop in value of their cards etc... But will that really happen? As far as I know, Legacy players buy cards primarily to play with them, not to collect or just to sell them off again. Who here would actually get pissed off if the value of their duals/FoWs would go down $5? $10? (whch was the price of these cards a couple of years ago, anyway).
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kicks_422
With the increasing ppularity of the format, would Wizards *really* be stupid to reprint Legacy staples in premium sets? People just keep saying that it will be like Chronicles again, with players complaining about the drop in value of their cards etc... But will that really happen? Who here would actually get pissed off if the value of their duals/FoWs would go down $5? $10? (whch was the price of these cards a couple of years ago, anyway).
Everyone. Literally. You, me, everyone who owns or bought a playset within the last, say, 5-10 years. If you ask an economist or economics grad student what the worst thing that can happen to a market is, they will answer "deflation." It's what the US Government is scared to hell of right this very second. It's a result of the worst global depression since the 1930s. To understate this as much as possible (seriously), reprinting some things like duals as legal cards would be catastrophic for the secondary market. Even more "untouchable" cards like the P9 would plummet as consumer confidence in Wizards and the guaranteed protection of peoples' investments disappeared. I know some internet economist will almost undoubtedly offer fallacious reasons why I'm wrong and why reprinting FoW would be great for the format, but believe you me that Wizards has more to lose from grossly violating the reserve list than consumers do. And a lot of consumers have a lot to lose.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
So it's not pissed off = 0, pissed off = 1.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not disagreeing with what you said. I'm just innocently asking the people concerned (the people here in the premiere Legacy site), rather than basing everything off of theories and assumptions.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I would be furious if wizards reprinted duals or fow's. That being said the only thing they might reprint is duals. FoW and brainstorm will not be reprinted as those cards take away from the luck factor in magic that attracts tons of noobs who play type 2. Without the battlefield and all this other yugioh nonsense wizards would lose money. Reprinting cards that require skill to use as opposed to cards like bloodbraid elf which require no skill at all would make the game unfun for the people WotC caters to.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Really i have playsets of almost everything in legacy and multiple of some stuff. I would love to see some reprints of the basics of legacy. what would be great would be either a FTV aimed at Legacy or even better something along the lines of the old boxed sets Wizards used to do. Both would be of limited enough distribution to not really affect the price of the cards but would give new players a place to start with.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I have playsets of most legacy staples and wouldn't mind if they reprinted them. It would make more people play the format, and it might even scare the speculators/hoarders away :]
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I'm on board with "not caring about reprinting some staples". I have all the staples currently, and you can ask Sims - I abuse them. Very little interest in whether or not my cards increase in value because they all have a huge crease down the middle. Every one I've ever used.
As far as a reprint goes, a limited premium print of some staples (seriously, a FTV with 10 duals and 5 Onslaught fetches?) would barely make a dent in the market. Some players will want the new foil ones, and sell their old ones off. Some players will hate the new foils, and only want old ones. Either way, it would help with the availability of Dual Lands.
I'm in this format solely to play and have fun, and I want more people to play with.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
The people suffering the most of chronicles-style reprints are usually the sellers that buy, let's say, one hundred duals, and they take a noticeable hit in their profit margins when the price goes down. Imagine the face of the owner of Starcitygames (currently buying Tabernacles at 200$) if Tabernacle were reprinted in the next from the vault set. That's not entirely dramatical because they buy at reduced price to begin with, so even if the prices go down 25% they still get profits (obviously, not as much as currently). The safest route is not reprinting cards that are too expensive. Wizards is not going to reprint Black lotus if the sellers that support the game (by selling singles to tournament players) are going to lose 900$ for each one they bought.
I support increasing the supplies of legacy staples, however, because the format needs them to grow and attract new players, otherwise we are going to end like the broken toy that is vintage. There's still time.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Magic Fanatic
Really i have playsets of almost everything in legacy and multiple of some stuff. I would love to see some reprints of the basics of legacy. what would be great would be either a FTV aimed at Legacy or even better something along the lines of the old boxed sets Wizards used to do. Both would be of limited enough distribution to not really affect the price of the cards but would give new players a place to start with.
This would probably end up like FTV:Exiled though where the set is MSRP'd at $35 or w/e and being sold for $100++ depending on what's reprinted in it. If it was done in limited quanities, by and large, it would not end up benefitting new players directly, it may help indirectly by deflating the market value of some of the cards due to more being available.
I don't have any viable ideas for a solution to the prices increasing on stuff. Wizards seems to sort of being addressing it with power creep, by obsoleting some old cards with new ones, but I don't really see them printing an LED that produces 4 mana, or something better than FoW, OG Duals, Sinkhole, etc at their respective jobs.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrew77
FoW and brainstorm will not be reprinted as those cards take away from the luck factor in magic that attracts tons of noobs who play type 2.
Do you even play T2 so you have some basis for this type of comment? They won't reprint them in a T2-legal set because 1). FoW is too good and not needed in Standard and hopefully never will be, and 2). Brainstorm is too good, and has had a perfectly acceptable replacement printed in Ponder. Neither card fills a hole within T2 right now that is necessary, or even desirable, to fill.
Current T2 isn't really more or less luck based than any other format, although I can't comment much on T1, as I don't play it. Every format has its share of luck; if they didn't, there wouldn't be decks that could conceivably kill before your opponent gets a turn (various T1 stuff/Charbelcher in Legacy, although it's rare for that to happen turn 1 on the play; or, if not "rare", fairly uncommon).
As far as prices, it's pretty awful. For all the people who say "oh, it's easy to budget X amount a month for Magic", that's not necessarily accurate. In addition, there will always people who don't want to have to spend X to remain competitive as metagames change/new sets come in/whatever. I have, for all intents and purposes, been priced out of playing anything other than Merfolk in Legacy at this point in time, largely because I am uncomfortable with buying cards at such high prices without the express intent of reselling them immediately. The only times I've ever spent large amounts of money on individual cards were at conventions when I was dealing and such; as a player, I have always traded for or managed to buy what I needed for decent/good prices. That, plus the fact that the cost has pretty much destroyed the local Legacy scene, has prevented me from playing the format very much over the last 2 years or so.
I'm not saying "ZOMG reprint duals NOW" or anything, but I do think that some form of action needs to be taken at some point before things get out of hand and the market collapses under its own weight.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I would be delighted to see a From the Vault: Bayou and Co.
I own several sets of RV duals (all of the blue ones, Taigas and some other random ones, and no more than 4-each) and would be thrilled to see them reprinted in some form to allow more people to enter the format. Access and long-term growth is limited by the cost of lands -- which have reached outrageous levels in the last couple of months.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
So early on, from the players' view (not the economists'), reprinting Legacy staples will be welcomed. Intriguing. Maybe we should have a poll for this?
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I personally enjoy the fact that legacy is perceived as an expensive format. Have you ever played competitive type 2? Most t2 players are not nice people. If you go to a competitive legacy tournament the crowd is much more mature and it makes for a much more relaxed and fun environment. In my mind if you are going to dish out $500 or $1000 for a legacy deck when legacy is a format that has no real support from wizards in terms of ptq's and such it means you probably enjoy the format and want to have fun playing.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmare
he thing is, all those little kids who play their stompy decks get beat a bunch, which does nothing but increase prize support at the events you play in. That is unless, of course, they beat you with their stompy decks, in which case your opinion is irrelevant since you're basically a low-skilled whiner, who thinks he should be able to buy his wins, rather than play for them. There is literally zero drawback to having every little kid in the world play in an event you win (or even make top 8 in), since it effects your own tournament by none, unless it's round 1 or 2.
Wow. I copped a scathing hit from Nightmare... but my 'elitist' and feelings of entitlement are those of growing-up and doing some hard work. Everyone is guaranteed a bit of that, especially the little Timmies playing T2 now. Ofc, then, it will become a matter of opportunity cost. Also, while it does affect round 1 and 2, I am sure we want good games with good opponents from round ONE, rather than waiting an hour or more before some real legacy match-ups start. If little Timmy comes to a tournament running Stompy round 1 and gets UTTERLY smashed for 4 rounds, I highly doubt he will want to come back for round 5, let along the next event. Thus, I believe that the price barrier will ensure that when he is ready, mature Timmy will come in with his not-quite-mint cards and storm the local Legacy event! :laugh: [see above post by Andrew77]
While Nightmare clearly disagree with my 'elitist' anti-reprint feelings, I do agree that we should promote legacy by helping out. And I do. Really! I bought up doubles of a few staples because little Timmy (a trustworthy good-opponent friend) from my area wanted to play and so do I! Now, I can lend out some decks to anyone who wants a go at the local Legacy event. Am I promoting legacy here? Yes, I can lend out about 2 decks to Timmies wanting a go at the local legacy event! When he grows up and buys his own cards, my decks can be piloted by the next kid who shows up at the events thinking that he just came in today to be a spectator.:smile: TBH, I would not mind leaving a box of staples at the local store to support the scene, but I would need someone to be responsible for their use.
Also, hoarding staples should theoretically drive up prices, because one person has more than his share. However, as long as MOST (if not all) my duals are providing (competitive) mana, and my forces hitting that crucial first turn Vial, legacy stay alive as the necessary cards remain in the hands of players, not horders or speculators. So, there was 1200+ people at the last GP? As long as they never sold out, there will still be 1200+ people at the next (pending the location ofc :laugh:) and the next. 1200+ mature and skillful players? Would anyone want to leave this format?
That being said, any plausible lower-the-barrier reprints will cause these cards to tank and [see my previous post and Andrew77's]. FTV: Legacy is NOT plausible. It will open the market for more opportunists to horde and price gouge, while not helping the format in any way. Also, who is going to have the cash to cough up for FOUR BOXES of this FTV?? Us, even though we already have our ones! Not the Timmy-who-is-not-yet-ready.
Also, any chance someone can do up a poll for opinions on potential reprints?
EDIT: By "plausible lower-the-barrier reprints", I meant Legacy-based Booster packs like Chronicles or ME. These are massive print runs of our staples. That will lower the barrier due to a MASSIVE influx of cards into the hands of players, rich and not-so-rich alike. FTV: Legacy OTOH are VERY limited and will not lower the barrier-of-entry. Another 1000 duals (that is merely 250 playsets, even at 2500 playsets, it s a 3% increase) will not cause the current pool of 70000 playsets to drop in value (significantly*). Instead, these 250 playsets of NEO-duals will be even MORE expensive than the current 70000 ones.
*An FTV:Legacy will cause a price drop as WOTC will have violated their reprint policy and that may well ruin the players' and stores' confidence in the future of the game and the value of the cards.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
That being said, any plausible lower-the-barrier reprints will cause these cards to tank and [see my previous post and Andrew77's]. FTV: Legacy is NOT plausible.
Quote:
Also, who is going to have the cash to cough up for FOUR BOXES of this FTV?? Us, even though we already have our ones! Not the Timmy-who-is-not-yet-ready.
Wait, so you just said that the price would plummet, but then you said that people looking to join the format couldn't afford the cards?
I hope that Wizards does a FTV: Legacy or something. The people who stand to lose any significant amount of money due to the price drop on the reprinted cards are the same people who stand to make a great deal of money from FTV: Legacy.
And then it will be a high publicity release for Legacy and spark new interest, even if it doesn't move the price much.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrew77
I personally enjoy the fact that legacy is perceived as an expensive format. Have you ever played competitive type 2? Most t2 players are not nice people. If you go to a competitive legacy tournament the crowd is much more mature and it makes for a much more relaxed and fun environment.
I can guarantee you that I have met just as many douche nozzles at Legacy tournaments as I have at T2 tournaments. The whole "Legacy is the nicest community" meme is mythical, because we're all Magic players; one section of the player base preferring Format X to everything else has zero effect on their likability, etc. I think the majority of people who feel this way have limited experience with non-Legacy events; it's something that is based on personal experience and is colored by perception, so it shouldn't be accepted as fact. We all play the same game; just because you play Legacy (primarily, if not only) doesn't make you a better or nicer person than Shorty Shitstain the PTQ player.
Making sweeping generalizations like that hurts not just yourself, but the community, and, by extension, the format. It's not a special club with a super secret handshake designed to keep membership to a minimum; at least, it shouldn't be. You want to community and the format to grow, because more players = more tournaments, and so on. Growth is a positive thing.
But if you prefer to drink the "Legacy is Made Up of Mature/Nice People" Kool-Aid, that is your prerogative.
As far as the reprint conundrum, I think it should be somewhere in the middle between FTV style and just an all-out reprint set. They definitely should NOT be done in foil; honestly, I feel the duals should be white-bordered and done with the old art/frame, but maybe that's just me.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Is card availability really that much of a problem?
Everywhere i go traders have stocks of duals, and its the same for sites like SCG. Granted, they aren't cheap; but if you aren't willing to spend like 35 $ on a dual land; I feel that legacy isn't the format for you. And this isn't about me being an elitist prick, for me a higher cost is just part of the format, plain and simple.
More then likely there will be alot of players attending the next 2 Legacy GP's, so it seems to me that Legacy is already big enough. Sure, it would be nice if Legacy could continue to grow; but would it be worth it? Somehow I seriously doubt it.
The story is different for more obscure cards like Imperial Recruiter or Tabernacle, but last time I checked those werent staples anyway.
Anyway I am strongly against reprinting, no matter whether you call it FTV: legacy or Chronicles 2 or whatever. The value of the original cards would literally plummet. Now i am not gonna lose my sleep over it, but needless to say I would lose alot of money I invested through the years.
But for me the biggest concern would be Wotc's credibility. I mean, if they start printing duals; where will it end? Soon people will start crying about how they will want to play vintage too, and then voilą there you have it; foil moxen.
Every card that gets reprinted is a stab through not only the heart of players who have been playing older formats for years, but also through the heart of the format itself.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
As a Legacy Player for close to 12 years here, I'm going to have to say that reprinting the format (Chronicles 2) would probably be the most interesting thing that Wizards could actually do to improve the format as a whole. Personally I would prefere Wizards to actually reprinting of the old booster boxes to bring them to current print runs (I know, it's impossible to think about this).
I have had most of my Duals since Extended banned them. I picked up Goyfs, Dark Confidants and Mox Diamonds for 'dirt cheap' early since I knew it was a playable card in Legacy. If Wizards decided to nuke the secondary market, I WOULD WELCOME IT. This is a hobby, not a lifestyle like some people consider it.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watcher487
Personally I would prefere Wizards to actually reprinting of the old booster boxes to bring them to current print runs (I know, it's impossible to think about this).
That would literally destroy the value of everything. I'm serious. If its not mythic it'll be worthless. Current print runs are absolutely huge and if the cards aren't reprinted to be legal in newer formats legacy decks would be cheaper than block decks.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrew77
That would literally destroy the value of everything. I'm serious. If its not mythic it'll be worthless. Current print runs are absolutely huge and if the cards aren't reprinted to be legal in newer formats legacy decks would be cheaper than block decks.
I understand that the comparison was off, my apologies. But the thought is still there, maybe not to current standards but somewhere comparable. For the record, I don't care about the secondary market. I pick up cards as they come out and don't go out of my way to either pimp or go to excesses. Yes, I do trade and buy cards, but more as a casual player and not some cracked out type 2 players (some that I know have gone out of thier way to do all of those things spending that $2,000 for that deck).
And Andrew like I said before, I don't care of Wizards Nukes the Secondary Market, I would welcome it.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Watcher487
I don't care of Wizards Nukes the Secondary Market, I would welcome it.
I wouldn't. I have spend quite some cash on my cards, so I'm happy they rise in value. That makes it a reasonable investment. If they were to drop in value, I'll be losing alot of money, that's when I would start to worry. As long as cards rise in value, you can safely buy them, knowing they'll be worth more in the future so you can sell them again without having any loss.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I personally was appalled when they kept printing versions of Monopoly. I mean it's a game about investing and capital. It should be a safe investment, right? Who would have known that people actually played games for fun instead of just speculating on them like normal folks?
I'm glad Wizards of the Coast still gets it though. Nobody wants to play with their cards; we just want to make money from them.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
majikal
I personally was appalled when they kept printing versions of Monopoly. I mean it's a game about investing and capital. It should be a safe investment, right? Who would have known that people actually played games for fun instead of just speculating on them like normal folks?
This may be the worst attempt at an analogy presented in the topic thus far, which is no small feat.
Also, for the people saying that the differences in player-bases between formats are a myth: The next time you go to a Vintage or Legacy tournament, count up and figure out the percentage of the field made up of young kids. Then do the same at the next T2 tournament you attend. Compare the results
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
majikal
Who would have known that people actually played games for fun instead of just speculating on them like normal folks?
I'm glad Wizards of the Coast still gets it though. Nobody wants to play with their cards; we just want to make money from them.
Thank you for posting this. It seems to me that plenty of Magic players believe that anyone who spends $40 a piece on 40 Loyal Retainers has earned a divine right to make a killing. Speculation involves chance, why does Magic have to be different?
Also, for advocates of the "so what card X costs Y, suck it up" argument, what happens when Trops go from $45 to $95 a piece? How many people are going to be able to continuously suck it up? Not all of us have ridiculous jobs that pay ridiculous money so we can drive the ridiculous cars like the ones talked about in the car thread in mish-mash. Legacy should NOT be for only the elitest "I spend $200+ on Magic a month" portion of the player base.
Also, and this is a biggie, please stop it with the whole "Legacy players are more mature" nonsense. I have run into so many cry-manbabies who whined that I trounced them with dredge, that a blew up their last land, countered their spell, or in plenty of places, people I've played Tarmogoyf against. In my experience, Magic players are by and large immature, regardless of what format they play. The amount of petty bickering and trolling that goes on in this very website is testament to this.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrew77
I would be furious if wizards reprinted duals or fow's. That being said the only thing they might reprint is duals. FoW and brainstorm will not be reprinted as those cards take away from the luck factor in magic that attracts tons of noobs who play type 2. Without the battlefield and all this other yugioh nonsense wizards would lose money. Reprinting cards that require skill to use as opposed to cards like bloodbraid elf which require no skill at all would make the game unfun for the people WotC caters to.
You really think Force of Will would even get played in today's standard? I play Legacy; I know how good it can be in the meta, but in a slower standard, a 5 mana counter or a 2-card counter aren't what the format can use.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BenBleiweiss
Hey guys, just created an account here.
I'll be talking about the recent fluctuation in Legacy (and honestly, Standard and Extended) in my SCG article next week (not this Thursday, but the Thursday afterwards) and the week after that, in free-side articles. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts once I've put up those two articles.
This coming Thursday, I will be talking a bunch about Scroll Rack, but that article will be premium.
- Ben
This should be coming out today right?
If only limited reprints are printed to attract new players, those new players may add fuel to the speculation of the other non-reprinted cards. The new players cant play on just one set of staples, (ie duals) they'd need the goyfs too. That would mean even more of a rise in goyf prices.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doomsday
Also, for the people saying that the differences in player-bases between formats are a myth: The next time you go to a Vintage or Legacy tournament, count up and figure out the percentage of the field made up of young kids. Then do the same at the next T2 tournament you attend. Compare the results
For someone so critical of other people's posts, this one sure is a failure. Nobody ever said all of the formats attracted the same age demographic. The level of maturity is roughly the same; while Standard has its actual, spoiled children, Legacy has spoiled man-children. You get people with high-paying jobs and tons of cash to blow (or extreme fiscal irresponsibility), with all the emotional development of a twelve-year-old.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
majikal
For someone so critical of other people's posts, this one sure is a failure. Nobody ever said all of the formats attracted the same age demographic. The level of maturity is roughly the same; while Standard has its actual, spoiled children, Legacy has spoiled man-children. You get people with high-paying jobs and tons of cash to blow (or extreme fiscal irresponsibility), with all the emotional development of a twelve-year-old.
I guess if this requires further explanation, the next step would be developing a way to test maturity, and performing the test on young children and then on adults with jobs, and comparing the results. (SPOILER: The test isn't actually required, adults on average are more mature than children and no one will dispute this).
To not be completely off-topic, I was just echoing others' sentiments that the cost of entry goes a long way toward keeping kids out. It seemed like they were crucified for saying this, but what they said was true and I can't honestly hold it against an adult when they say that they don't want to interact with children in their spare time. For instance I'd much rather play in my 12-team softball league (where we're all adults and can drink while playing, have adult discussions, etc), than to make it into a 24-team league by allowing 13 year olds.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IsThisACatInAHat?
Everyone. Literally. You, me, everyone who owns or bought a playset within the last, say, 5-10 years.
That is complete bullshit. Every expensive card I own, I've acquired in the last 10 years, and 90% of them in the last five, and I would love it to death to see all of them reprinted, in such quantities that anyone who wants them can have them (I'm talking $10 Underground Seas). I derive no pleasure from beating an opponent because they couldn't afford to buy a better deck. That's as unsatisfying a win as cheating at Candyland.
But maybe you didn't know. Maybe you've managed to go through 20+ pages of this thread without figuring out that even people who own lots of valuable cards want them reprinted. Ignorance is not a sin, but be advised that what you are saying is a complete falsehood.
When I buy a card, what I'm paying for is the ability to use that card in games of Magic (or for certain collectible cards like miscuts, because they're cool to look at/show off). I'm NOT paying for the chance to resell it at a profit, even if I get that option automatically. If the market price of a Bayou jumps to $100 or falls to $5, it doesn't affect me one bit, because I never intended to sell them anyway. I bought the cards because I want to play with them, and as long as I can do that, I'm getting my money's worth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plus_ten
the Timmy-who-is-not-yet-ready.
Uh, did you miss the fact that a 14-year-old won the Standard portion, and all but won the Legacy portion of the SCG Dallas 5k? You need to check your prejudices at the door, buddy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheAardvark
I can guarantee you that I have met just as many douche nozzles at Legacy tournaments as I have at T2 tournaments. The whole "Legacy is the nicest community" meme is mythical, because we're all Magic players; one section of the player base preferring Format X to everything else has zero effect on their likability, etc.
Right the fuck on. In fact the nicest players I know are almost exclusively draft players, or players who play any and every format (standard, extended, legacy, vintage, draft, EDH, Type Four, cube, casual, Stacks, everything). As a percentage, Legacy has about the same amount of assholery as Standard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drizztjah
Now i am not gonna lose my sleep over it, but needless to say I would lose alot of money I invested through the years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
I wouldn't. I have spend quite some cash on my cards, so I'm happy they rise in value. That makes it a reasonable investment. If they were to drop in value, I'll be losing alot of money, that's when I would start to worry. As long as cards rise in value, you can safely buy them, knowing they'll be worth more in the future so you can sell them again without having any loss.
What exactly do you think an investment is? If you're investing, you implicitly accept the risk of losing money. Anyone who buys cards with the intention of making a profit has ZERO standing to complain if they lose money on that investment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrew77
That would literally destroy the value of everything. I'm serious. If its not mythic it'll be worthless. Current print runs are absolutely huge and if the cards aren't reprinted to be legal in newer formats legacy decks would be cheaper than block decks.
No. Wrong. Cards would be worthless to RESELL, but they would still be worthwhile to PLAY WITH. It's hard to take your opinions seriously if you can't distinguish between market price and utility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Doomsday
For instance I'd much rather play in my 12-team softball league (where we're all adults and can drink while playing, have adult discussions, etc), than to make it into a 24-team league by allowing 13 year olds.
That's a bad analogy, because 13-year-olds can't actually compete with grown adults in sporting competitions. Even the most emotionally mature kids (and I have known plenty of younger people who are/were more mature at 14 than most 22-year-olds) gets whomped by the bigger, stronger, dumber asshole college grad.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I own somewhere around 65 dual lands, about half of which are blue. If Underground Seas and the rest were to suddenly drop to $10 each because Wizards decided to reverse their policy and reprint them, I would certainly be very annoyed.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Volt
I own somewhere around 65 dual lands, about half of which are blue. If Underground Seas and the rest were to suddenly drop to $10 each because Wizards decided to reverse their policy and reprint them, I would certainly be very annoyed.
I've shelled out for some expensive cards, like FBB Duals as well as revised ones, Mana Drains, multiple playsets of FoW, etc. Why? Because I want to play with them. But, I would be thrilled to death if every single one of those cards were reprinted so I'd have more opponents to play with. The higher the prices climb, the more people sell out in certain areas, and the less people en masse will play the game, until you're left with small pockets of six here, four there, that only ever make it out to 5k events, assuming they don't box up the collection completely or keep it at the kitchen table.
There will come a point in the future where no matter how much some collectibles expert tells you your cards are probably worth, you will have trouble finding a buyer, let alone anyone to play against.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
majikal
I've shelled out for some expensive cards, like FBB Duals as well as revised ones, Mana Drains, multiple playsets of FoW, etc. Why? Because I want to play with them. But, I would be thrilled to death if every single one of those cards were reprinted so I'd have more opponents to play with. The higher the prices climb, the more people sell out in certain areas, and the less people en masse play the game, until you're left with small pockets of six here, four there, that only ever make it out to 5k events, assuming they don't box up the collection completely or keep it at the kitchen table.
There will come a point in the future where no matter how much some collectibles expert tells you your cards are probably worth, you will have trouble finding a buyer, let alone anyone to play against.
Yeah, but $10 underground seas? That's more than I'm willing to eat for the good of the format. I guess I'm a selfish dick.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Volt
Yeah, but $10 underground seas? That's more than I'm willing to eat for the good of the format. I guess I'm a selfish dick.
Why does it matter how low they go honestly? The whole purpose is to play with them. Just look at Pithing Needle. It used to be a $20 card and was/is a staple in Sideboards of every format. But they reprinted it twice. It's $3 now, and nobody is complaining, because it's still a good card to play with.
I guess the point is that it's better for the format as a whole for the cards that could be considered "staples" to keep being printed, while fringe powerhouses like Tabernacle or The Abyss or whatever retain the rarity and collectibility. This is exactly the reason why the new duals in Standard weren't printed at Mythic. It would price far too many people out of the format.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattH
But maybe you didn't know. Maybe you've managed to go through 20+ pages of this thread without figuring out that even people who own lots of valuable cards want them reprinted. Ignorance is not a sin, but be advised that what you are saying is a complete falsehood.
When I buy a card, what I'm paying for is the ability to use that card in games of Magic (or for certain collectible cards like miscuts, because they're cool to look at/show off). I'm NOT paying for the chance to resell it at a profit, even if I get that option automatically. If the market price of a Bayou jumps to $100 or falls to $5, it doesn't affect me one bit, because I never intended to sell them anyway. I bought the cards because I want to play with them, and as long as I can do that, I'm getting my money's worth.
Let me start by apologizing for speaking in absolutes. I thought it was obvious that "Everyone. Literally." was intended as hyperbole, since there are always going to be some people who believe little green men live in their television sets and some who falsely believe that reprinting duals would be a good decision by Wizards. I guess all I can say to that is, you would almost definitely be singing a different tune if they did reprint them and if you didn't, you would be in a very small (but on The Source, clearly very vocal) minority.
I'm not basing my conjecture on a handful of anecdotes from a small fansite that represents a miniscule percentage of the people who buy MtG, as you are. It doesn't sound like any amount of suggestions for articles, books or Wikipedia pages will change your mind, but the truth is that whether or not 99% of people are paying to play, collect or sell, if they buy a card for $50 today and it drops to $5 tomorrow, there will be problems. Deflationary spirals have been linked to most major economic recessions throughout history, including the Great Depression of the 1930s and the one we're coming out of right now. What makes MtG cards so special that fundamental economic principles don't apply to them? I know it sounds like most people on the Source want reprints and to hell with the price, but even in Magic's short history, we have a shining example of what happens when the value of cards drops because of reprints: Chronicles. From what I understand, more people left the game in disgust after Chronicles than at any other point in its history. I know it must sound ridiculous that historical fact and scientific theory conflict with your idea that duals for everyone would solve the problem of price hikes, but I personally find it difficult to argue with the patently obvious.
-
Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Pithing Needle was never on the Reserved List, and I didn't buy 65 of them.
It's easy to say "the whole point is to play with them," if you live in Happy Land. For me, it's nice to know that I can turn around and sell some or all of my duals for as much or more than I paid for them, in a pinch. I've had to do it before.
But, like I said, maybe I'm just a selfish dick.
