Another reason Emrakul is better is because he does not require off color mana which I have seen be relevant on a few occasions.
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Another reason Emrakul is better is because he does not require off color mana which I have seen be relevant on a few occasions.
Quick tourney report.
I played the list I previously posted with the following changes:
-1 Masked Admirers
-1 Fauna Shaman (couldn't get in time)
+1 Sylvan Messenger
+1 Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elf
In testing, Sylvan Messenger was a better card all around, and my most frequent card to tutor for both with Pact and Survival when I am short on cards in hand or to start the combo. Masked Admirers I've found to be useful against removal heavy or blue control decks (you build up your resources by paying a GG tax on every creature cast). However, in normal play, it lacked what is required of it's casting cost: advantage.
Also note, since I was in a rush I left my dual lands at home, and hence played the following land situation:
9 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
This came up to biting me in some matchups where I needed to get both green mana and a Mountain to enable haste. My sideboarding reflected this weakness and I often boarded out Mountain and Anger.
Round 1: Solidarity (2-1)
Game 1: I recognize the build immediately and think I am safe since I have Emrakul. I get greedy and try to cast him, and get decked with 4 extra turns to take.
Game 2: Thorns of Amethyst early while he's stuck on 1 land.
Game 3: Thorns again, backed by beatdown.
Round 2: Aggro Loam (0-2)
Game 1: I apply pressure early, get him down to a low life. DD resets the board. I recover with one Forest, but his Barbarian Ring takes out my one dude per turn. Tarmogoyf finishes up while I'm stuck on 1 land.
Game 2: He makes a Chalice@1 on turn 2, and I draw the Zealot to use. I may have been able to continue applying pressure and not pop the Zealot same turn to cast a 2nd Nettle Sentinel. I lose to DD while he's at 2 life.
Round 3: Affinity (2-0)
Game 1: Viridian Shaman shows up and takes out his team.
Game 2: Emrakul shows up turn 4 and takes out his battlefield.
Round 4: TES (0-2)
Game 1: Glimpse gets Duress'd on his Turn 1. He Silences me on my turn 3 in response to Summoner's Pact (for Sylvan Messenger). He makes 10 Goblin tokens, while I make the Messenger. I get 1 creature, and pass it back. I go down to 2 life from attacks, and he drops the full combo (LED and Infernal Tutor into "shenanigans"). He feels smug from his disgustingly perfect hand.
Game 2: I have a first turn Survival with ESG. He Duress's my Glimpse again. I fail to draw a land and pass. He goes off.
Top of the deck is Thorns of Amethyst, hiding from usefulness.
Round 5: Lands with black (2-0)
Game 1: I make Fyndhorn Elf. He makes Tabernacle. I make Priest of Titania, followed by lots of plays, ending with Emrakul.
Game 2: I make turn 3 Terastodon to take out 3 of his lands, then cast Emrakul next turn.
Round 6: New Horizons (2-0)
Game 1: I bait for his counters with some elves. He makes an attacker or two and gets down to zero cards in hand. I go all in and win with Emrakul. (Wirewood Symbiote was huge here)
Game 2: Repeat of game 1, but I bait his Stifles with Relic of Progenitus. I use the Emrakul trick to bring back a fallen Symbiote and go off.
Ended up 4-2 at 14th place due to very bad tiebreakers.
Follow up notes: Glimpse is still ridiculous in this deck. It is very powerful and it's very easy to chain cast your deck with it. Survival was difficult to use in situations that I lacked land drops. Wood Elves is decent in here, but it's only useful when you've already got 3 mana. A solution that costs 1 or 2 mana might be needed. At 2 mana there is Sylvan Ranger. Is there an option at 1 mana?
There was not one time that I wished I had Masked Admirers instead of Sylvan Messenger.
Top 8 was the following: Aggro Loam, Merfolk, Merfolk, New Horizon, Eva Green Vamps, Zoo, some Jace deck (could have been CBtop), and possibly another New Horizons.
It would be interesting to cut the land count even lower, but at the cost of destroying your mulligans. 13 land with Fetches might work, but I feel more safe with 14. I do not at all advise playing Gaea's Cradle. It strictly is a Win More card.
Another tourney report. 19 people for 4 duals. Bad prize support means 1st/2nd only get prizes.
Playing a radical change in the sideboard to address the combo-heavy metagame.
Maindeck
// Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Priest of Titania
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Elvish Visionary
2 Elvish Archdruid
// Utility
3 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Anger
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Sylvan Messenger/Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eternal Witness
// Engines
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Survival of the Fittest
2 Summoner's Pact
// Lands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
1 Svannah
1 Taiga
// Sideboard
4 Thorns of Amethyst
4 Krosan Grip
2 Silence
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Vexing Shusher
Round 1: Tony A. with UWr Painter Stone (no recruiters) (2-0)
I peek during pre-match that he's got Grindstone.
Game 1: Keep a delicious hand with 2 land, 2 Nettles, Hertiage Druid and Glimpse. Draw into Wirewood. Combo off turn 2. He stops me midway to scoop.
Game 2: He gets turn 2 Servant, turn 3 Grindstone, turn 4 mill. I show him Emrakul and he scoops.
Emrakul win count: 1
Round 2: Aya T. with NO Elves (2-0)
Game 1: She plays elves. I play Priest of Titania. Turn 3 hasty Emrakul.
Game 2: She plays elves. I play Priest of Titania. Turn 3 Emrakul.
Emrakul win count: 3
Round 3: John H. with UGrw CB/Top (0-2)
We're good friends so it's not much of a pressure matchup. More like playtesting.
Game 1: Opening hand: Forest, Forest, Heath, Heath, Savannah, Forest, Foothills. *shrug* Mull to a non-stellar hand and lose to turn 1/2 CB/top.
Game 2: Keep a 2 lander and face turn 1 Grim Lavamancer. This is baddddddd. His SB tech is spot on. I lose a slow game without a chance.
Round 4: Kyle D. with White Stax (1-2)
Game 1: Start with Nettle Sentinel. Apply pressure for about 4 turns. In the meantime he casts Ghostly Prison and Chalice @ 1. I land Survival with 4 lands and grab Elvish Archdruid so I'm not dead to Armageddon. Untap and cast Viridian Shaman, then go off with Glimpse. Finish off with Emrakul attacking.
Game 2: I keep a double Priest of Titania hand. He starts off with Chalice @ 1. I fail to find a Grip in time and only get to cast my five 1cc cards. He casts Trinisphere to slow me down. Finally find a Grip but by now he's got two Chalice @ 1. He plays Armageddon to knock out my lands, then plays Smokestack. I dont' draw Grip in time to stem the bleeding and lose to lack of permanents. Sylvan Messenger whiffs on elves in this game.
Game 3: I keep a one lander with 2 mana elves. I cast Llanowar Elf turn 1. He plays Mox Diamond + Land. I cast Priest of Titania turn 2. He casts Mox Diamond + Land + Linvala. I can't cast anything. He plays Magus of the Tabernacle turn 3 and I scoop it up.
Emrakul win count: 4.
Round 5: Todd with Ally/Soldier WW (2-0)
Game 1: He mulls to 5, then StP's two elves. I attack with Emrakul on turn 4.
Game 2: He plays some Allies and starts to whittle my lifetotal. I cast elves and win with Emrakul.
Emrakul win count: 6.
At this point I'm 3-2 in a field of 17 players. I get 9th place due to tiebreakers.
Thoughts:
Counterbalance is still a pain to beat. Leyline of Lifeforce is getting a serious consideration again. It also prevents Chalice from beating me.
Good matchups are still decks that can't disrupt you resolving Elves.
Even matchups are decks that you require specific cards (Grip, Survival, land) in order to win out.
Bad matchups are decks that can endlessly counter 1cc elves, then follow up with sweepers.
I may take a break from elves to focus on other Survival decks. There might be some new elves in the next set that would help out specific matchups, or improve the strength of the tribe as a whole.
Adam Ramsay came in 9th at the SCG legacy open in Denver with the following list:
1 Acidic Slime
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Quirion Elves
2 Regal Force
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Wirewood Symbiote
Instants
4 Summoner's Pact
Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Grapeshot
1 Recoup
Basic Lands
11 Forest
Lands
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
Legendary Lands
1 Gaea's Cradle
Sideboard:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Imperious Perfect
1 Joraga Warcaller
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Leyline of Lifeforce
2 Naturalize
2 Gleeful Sabotage
I do like the maindeck, I have always been a fan the versions running lots of elves. I have tried NO+prog versions etc, and I still play those, but I prefer this for some reason. And the survival engine is just too expensive for me, I did not test with that anyway.
Grapeshot + recoup is something that I find very interesting. I always used Eternal Witness, but this seems even better! Quirrion Elves is something I never used, but I can see why its there.
The sideboard is something I strugle with, but there choices are obvious, just the numbers dont seem correct to me.
Thoughts?
~maarten
Why would anyone run less than 4 of any Leyline?
I've been looking into this deck. It seems like it has a lot of strengths. Merfolk seems like a joke. You should be goldfishing faster than Goblins and Zoo despite whatever removal they may have. I guess the issues are Counterbalance and other combo decks?
A strength seems to be that decks packing hate against you are for storm, which is completely different from this deck. Also, the aggro plan seems perfectly strong if they overboard on hate.
Can't be Mindbreak Trapped.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
Emrakul can indeed be exiled using Mindbreak Trap; however the extra turn still resolves normally. Even still, the amount of elves in play should be enough to finish the job.
Has anybody looked at Gaea's Herald? I'm playing Food Chain Elves and running 3x in my board and it's working great for me. Another card I don't really see in the SBs is Steely Resolve. I've found the combonation of both of these to be a real pain for Counterbalance without Firespout to deal with. Counterbalance with Firespout is still a real pain in the ass though.Quote:
2 Leyline of Lifeforce
I especially like Gaea's Herald although. it can be countered right? The problem with Steely Resolve is I don't know how to find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brushwagg
Gaea's Herald can be countered... Compare with Vexing Shusher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
I have once managed to play vexing Shusher and combo off turn 2 before against CBtop. However this is not the normal.
Gaea's Herald is more synergistic, but it's almost never going to resolve whereas vexing Shusher will always.
I think Leyline of Lifeforce would be the best, and just mulligan to get it. At the earliest it will take them until turn 3 to destroy it with Krosan Grip if you're playing Survival. They won't anticipate it if you run straight up Glimpse combo.
Natural Order/Progenitus is still the best way to board against CBtop that doesn't run black.
to ruckus:
Hey, I noticed that on your second last tournament report, you posted this:
Although on your list before that, you never really had Fauna Shaman. I also noticed that on your post after that, Fauna Shaman was not included. Is it because you still do not have access to them?Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Would you still try to utilize Fauna Shaman?
Also, any changes to your list as of now?
I haven't touched my elves deck in a while. I would love to play with them again.
Thanks for the help ruckus!
I tested Fauna shaman a bit as a 1-of. I found that the 4th Survival is always better than it. With the hybrid engines, I still prefer 3 Survivals, since it is the slower card.
So, would you say that this list that you're rocking with would be the most optimal of your lists?Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
I think priests are a bad idea in this build. I used to have them, but the Archdruids lord ability is well worth the extra mana, and having both is overkill. As many one drops as you can manage is what makes this deck work.
I really started to like Gaea's Cradle along with one crop rotation. You don't have it - nothing bad, you have it - good for you. But maybe in the builds without NO it might not be needed, but since I use them, cradle actually gives some serious mana boost.
For those running a white splash, consider Scapegoat. It has 2 main functions: save your team from mass removal, and combo with Glimpse of Nature to ensure a win, provided you have the mana to replay all your dudes and draw more cards. It will also randomly save lords from spot removal and combo with Sylvan Messanger(s). Thoughts?
it's one of those cards that looks good but it just won't simply work..Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
I disagree. Once you start combing off, you rarely need your lands anyway because you have so much mana, with the exception of Gaea's Cradle of course. Mid spell chain Scapegoat allows you to replay all your small dudes, namely Quirion's Rangers that allow you to untap your Priest of Titania and Elvish Archdruid's. It also allows you to draw 4 cards again from Sylvan Messanger. It also saves Shusher's post-board from spot removal. Honestly it has synergy with the entire deck and I doubt it will ever be a dead card, especially if you are trying to avoid mass removal like Deed. Whats the argument against it, because I'm not really sold on 'it simply won't work'. I've played this card in a Kobold Glimpse list and it was phenomenal.
On a similar note, I do like the idea of Crop Rotation. It allows you to chain your Gaea's Cradle's together, sacrificing one to find another. Does anyone play it?
I also fail to see Scapegoat's usefulness in the deck. Against mass removal Wrap in Vigor does the job (Perish, WoG, aside) in protecting the horde - but noone plays that card either. I don't see the added benefit of replaying all your elves as it becomes overkill. Two ways to go with this deck are such:
1. Storm via Grapeshot/Tendrils/etc
2. Elf-ball into Emrakul
Bouncing all your guys as a defensive measure seems good on paper, until you realize that reset the board state won't always help you recover in time, and essentially not against Counterbalance. On the offensive, its just plain Win More.
You mentioned that with Kobolds it's a great card. I agree for this purpose. Elves aren't as explosive as Kobolds with retriggers on Glimpse, even when Elves effectively cost 0 or negative mana, and much more interaction based than simply casting a Kobold. (tap 3 elves, untap X Nettle Sentinels, draw a card for each elf cast - this can get tedious after several rounds)
Wirewood Symbiote works well enough in bouncing Quirion Rangers. At that point, you should have more than enough mana and Glimpse triggers to sustain the combo through the end. Symbiote also is a lightning rod that protects against spot removal (both in countering the removal, and by eating the removal himself).
RE: Crop Rotation and Gaea's Cradle
This has been mentioned over and over. It's a preference call, but it appears most of the people in this thread prefer a rock solid mana base (basic Forests, fetchland) to the chance of opening up a must-mulligan hand contaning 1 or more Gaea's Cradle. The risks outweigh the benefits of the extra mana boost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
This list is indeed very solid. I'm very satisfied with it, with the only exception being the pre-existing bad matchups. Those can be solved using any number of various sideboard packages:Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
3-4 Natural Order/Progenitus
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
0-8 Combo hate cards
0-3 extra utility dorks (Magus of the Moon, Gaddock Teeg, Faerie Macabre, Terastodon, Caller of the Claw, Nullmage Shepherd, etc)
2-4 Krosan Grip
0-4 Graveyard hate
Hey all,
Placed 5th in a 32 person tourney at Die Hard Games in Pawtucket yesterday. Here is the list I ran:
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
6 Forest
4 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wirewood Symbiote
SB:
1 Elvish Champion
3 Fecundity
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Tormod's Crypt
Tournament Report:
Round 1: Zoo build that edged towards burn
Game 1- I summon an Archdruid turn two and he burns enough guys away that I can't pay for the pact.
Game 2- on turn four I don't have anything I can do except summon, and I realize I made the same mistake the previous game, but if he had burn spells I was going to lose whether or not I summoned, so I figured I'd just go for it. He burns, I scoop.
(0-1)
Round 2: Dredge
Game 1: I combo into Emrakul the turn before he is going to Dread Return.
Game 2: I have a crypt out and he tries to Dread Return so I crack the crypt and it fizzles (not sure what he was thinking would happen), I combo next turn.
(1-1)
Round 3: Some weird control burn hybrid
Game 1: He messed up his decklist and started with a loss
Game 2: I combo through his control into Emrakul
(2-1)
Round 4: Bant Surival
Game 1: He gets some decent guys out and swings me down to 8, then I bounce a warcaller back to my hand with symbiote and recast him giving all my guys +4/+4, as well as +2/+2 from 2 Archdruids on the field. I out aggro him.
Game 2: Turn 2 combo into Emrakul
(3-1)
Round 5: NO Bant
Game 1: He gets Prog out turn 3. I was at 22 life cause he swordsed a Nettle. He swings me to 12. I get a shitload of guys out. He swings me to two, I bounce a warcaller and give them all +8/+8. Swing for the win.
Game 2: I mulligan to 5 and have no lands, but I keep the hand out of fear of having no lands at 4. I don't see a land till turn 3. He gets a goyf and a clique out. He swings at me each turn, and by turn 6 I have a fair amount of guys out. On his turn he swings me to 4 life, and then on mine with some untapping shenanigans I hardcast Emrakul for the win.
(4-1)
I go into top 8 with the top seed.
I play the 8th seed.
Matchup: the Rock
Game 1: He goes first and triple hymns me, there's nothing I can do
Game 2: He boards in Plagues and gets 3 on the field. That was that.
End the tourney with a 5th place finish and a grim monolith, dci meggling made, sundering titan, and 3 boosters. I'll take it. Changes that I think I will make is replacing one fecundity in the board with a 4th grip. The rest of the board is fucking awesome.
Oh another thing to note, I was top seed going into top 8 before I got triple hymned/triple plagued. The tournament size was 32 players.
The new Genesis Wave card that just came out looks broken good in elves @.@ Check it out
Just in case anyone don't know it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass
Genesis Wave XGGG
Sorcery
Reveal the top X cards of your library. You may put any number of permanent cards with converted mana cost X or less from among them onto the battlefield. Then put all cards revealed this way that weren't put onto the battlefield into your graveyard.
Nah. It's way too mana intensive to be anything but win-more.
Regal force is better. Period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grollub
Regal force is definitely better. In the tournament I reported above I summoned Regal a bunch of times for the win. The fact that you can summon for him is a huge advantage, on top of the fact that he will probably yield more cards than genesis anyway, and he's a 5/5 incase you need it.
I know regal force is a great card, but I did find this one card that might be good. Distant Melody. The problem with it is that it is not a creature and it is not green. It does cost less than regal force though. I think regal force better, what do you guys think?
Yep! Regal force is definately better :)! I can only imagine playing this in a version that runs Burning wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
Distant Melody shouldn't be played in Elves. Regal Force is used when going off. At this point you would already have a lot of mana, so why would you run a card that costs less (not really relevant) but screws up your entire mana base?
Regal Force is much better because it can be fetched by pact. Genesis Wave and Distant Melody can't. Regal Foce also allows you keep hands like t1 llanowar, t2 archdruid, t3 untapper,pact-> regal force, win.
Okay here's another card: Copperhorn Scout. My thoughts are that he won't be that good in the deck. although if he is played turn 2, you could do a pre-combo turn 3 attack with this guy and then combo off. Any thoughts?
Probably too slow for most decks. He is a one-drop elf, so not all that terrible in Glimpse builds. My instinct is that it's win more. (he doesn't tap for mana just like Quirion Ranger, who is terrible as a first turn play unless you're packing Taiga and expecting Wasteland)
P.S.: I may not be sober, so the analysis may be off.
Quirion is a phenominal first turn play in hands with only one land. Ex:Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Turn 1: Forest, quirion
Turn 2: birchlore, tap quirion and birchlore for nettle, bounce forest to untap birchlore, play forest again, tap forest for glimpse and use burchlore and nettle to start comboing
That's a turn two combo and I do this all the time. If you look a few posts back you can see the list I run, I have tested literally every possible build with this deck and this one smokes every other build (including the survival build).
Don't like storm-based wincons?Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Is Emrakul better than NO-Prog?
My list (minus Skullclamp to be Legacy-legal):
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Regal Force
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Land Grant
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Skullclamp
11 Forest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caspid
I do like storm based win kills but there is pretty much never an instance where you can storm but not cast emrakul since you get the mana increase as you build your storm count. The biggest advantage to Emrakul over storm is that if you are not mid combo, you can usually finagle a way to cast him for the win if you have an archdruid/priest and untapper out. Basically, there is no disadvantage to Emrakul over storm, and hardcasting Emrakul wins me games fairly frequently (put me top seed going into top 8 last month at a 32 person tourney last month), so since I obviously want to win as many games as possible, this was the obvious choice. I used to run tendrils for a while but will never go back.
Yo, rukcus! Whatchu rockin' now?
I haven't touched Elves since going 1-3 vs.
Boros (2-1)
CB Bant (1-2)
RDW (1-2)
CB Top (0-2)
I even had the Leyline to help the CB matchup, but failed to draw sufficient land to do anything with my uncounterable 1 drops.
I don't think LA is a friendly place for Elves with all the CB top we have around.