Rock is often GBW in Legacy, Dark Horizons is the standard GBW disruptive midrange deck running undercosted fat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
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Rock is often GBW in Legacy, Dark Horizons is the standard GBW disruptive midrange deck running undercosted fat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
Because if two top players play a game without making a single mistake, then the games ends in a draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by HAVE HEART
:rolleyes:
Has someone heard about something on Aaron Foresythe Twitter about infinite tutors?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alderon666
Aaron's Random Card Comment of the Day #29, 11/4/10Quote:
Originally Posted by mtgaaron, via Twitter
Quote:
The structure of this card is based on that of the oft-reprinted original card advantage machine Jayemdae Tome. Replace the 4’s with 6’s and change “draw” to “tutor” and there you have it.
As I designer, I like this card about a tenth as much as I like Jayemdae Tome. As designers, we strive to make sure the game has the right amount of variance in it; variance leads to replayability and it keeps the outcomes of individual games in doubt longer. Players, at least those whose primary goal is winning, strive to reduce the variance in the game as much as possible. Things like tutors, scry, and card drawing are used to make sure the same spells come up in essentially the same order--or at the very least at close to the right time--game after game. If a deck can consistently assemble a game-winning combo on turn two, players will do that over and over and over. Games like that get really boring really fast, so we need to fight back against that. The mystery of the draw is a vital part of the game.
Tutoring every single turn has the potential to remove all the variance from at least one player’s part of the game. Once Planar Portal is up and running, assuming its controller isn’t under significant pressure, the outcome of the game is a foregone conclusion.
Not only does Planar Portal eliminate variance, it adds shuffling, which is another way to make a game consistently less fun.
The only thing that makes the card printable are the high costs associated with using it; you have to spend 12 mana to get the first benefit out of it. The mere act of surviving long enough to activate it is a feat in itself. It’s okay for us to print cards like this that do powerful-but-bad things at high costs once in a while, but personally I’d rather focus our efforts on powerful-and-fun.
... and every top player plays blue, which means that if someone lost, then there was definitely a line of play that should have gone differently in order to change the outcome of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by alderon666
GW survivine would like a word with the top players. The deck lacks blue except it sometimes 'splashes' blue for just wonder in the form of one tropical island. It is also noted that it has been putting up a ton of results lately notably in the SCG 5k's.
I have had games where I make absolutely zero mistakes and still lost. Mana flooded without a brainstorm + fetch? Good job, you just lost most likely if you're playing any type of typical blue aggro control deck.
How can you say this? Unless you had your game reviewed by multiple professionals, then it is hard to believe your self-review. You could have built your deck incorrectly, mulliganed incorrectly, sideboarded incorrectly or mismanaged your role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
Um, strategic superiority? Play any Storm Combo deck perfectly against any Aggro deck perfectly and the Combo deck will win the lion's share of the games. You know, because the Aggro deck can't interact in any meaningful way.Quote:
Originally Posted by HAVE HEART
Seven more Top 16's at SCG Boston, including the top 2 spots: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...eckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-11-07&end_date=2010-11-07&event_type=SCLO
Survival once again swept Boston, claiming 1-2 finish and basically half of the top 16.
Ninja'd :tongue:
What's up with all the noobs at Starcity, all they need to do is adapt and run some needles and spell snare for the win....... :rolleyes:
Looking at the sideboards of the decks it seems people are starting to hate survival more then the past few tournaments.
Dread still deck had 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Tormod's Crypt, 3 Hibernation, maybe 1 Firespout to fight them. Though the reason for no jace 2.0 seems strange.
Dark Horizons was using 4 Aven Mindcensor, 3 Extirpate for the match up i would think.
Goblins already have a good match up against survival as far as i am aware.
Sneak attack/show and Tell deck packed 1 Pithing Needle, 3 Meddling Mage, 3 Extirpate, and maybe 2 Perish possibly against the GW ones.
BWG coutnertop was using 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Relic of Progenitus, 3 Peacekeeper,3 Krosan Grip, 3 Path to Exile and probably went into a jace win mode.
Storm has a good match up.
So the sideboards are still general hate cards but some things seem a bit more focused such as the extirpates to take out vengvines or survivals if one is destroyed. Hibernation just stops survival normally. Peacekeeper has already begun to make a impact and is on the rise still with all these aggressive decks around. And more people are playing Spell Snare MD.
In a few more weeks survival may no longer be as dominate as it is and maybe still be one of the best decks but not the deck to only play.
Haha, but at the same time my favorite thing ever happened. They decktech'd obviously shitty decks that then went on to finish super bottom tier. I love it when SCG does that. The best was when they did it with that guy playing Legacy Jund in Minneapolis and he went on to finish dead last place.Quote:
Originally Posted by death
Anyways, yeah obviously a good showing for Survival yet again. Once again though we need to see full stats before we go jumping to conclusions. Also once again we can see the format evolving. 2 Reanimators and 3 Dark Horizons in the top 16. Not decks we are used to seeing in top 16s and it just goes to show that the format is still in motion. Just remember Vine Survival bandwagon is in full swing, it likely made up the largest % of the metagame, not likely 43% but still enough to explain it being that % of the top 8.
I feel sad that a banning is most probably going to happen now though it isn't necessary. It will most probably be survival but I pray it doesn't happen. Maybe wizards likes creatures (goblins pre tarmogoyf) and will be pleased with the variety and innovation survival provides. One can be hopeful lol.
There was 1 Reanimator in there, the other was a Sneak Attack deck. You don't check? This is just another in a long shitty line of naming screwups. Last SCG they messed up, calling Junk Junk and Dark Horizons in the same top 16.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
As a side note, anyone else amused at SCG trying to push their own lexicon?
If by pushing, you mean showing how ignorant they are, then yes :P. Their lexicon and naming scheme is just about as bad as their coverage(if you exclude the ggslive chat box).Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Rach
No surprise here, anything they can do to push a deck or its parts, they'll do. Decktechs were even worse than the ones I remember seeing before this time. Anyone know the reason for the outage, btw?Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Rach
Having just recovered from the Boston 5k, I can give you guys a little info on the meta.
Lots o' Survival
Lots o' Rock
Some TES/ANT variants.
I brought a tempo deck, which was a REAAAllly bad idea.
The meta is shifting boys and girls, buckle up and enjoy the ride.
Why won't these people metagame on a higher level than this?
I talk about this extensively in other place, but the answers are obvious and no one seems to want to accept that they may need to make shifts in the main deck to more competently combat Survival strategies. The wining deck played an Aven Mindscensor in the sideboard and the rock deck played four... That's a start. How about Spell snare now, guys?
Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus are just not answers for these decks and its frustrating that no one realizes it. I'll just put this out there for everyone:
Ooze Combo can still win under Crypt, Relic, Planar Void, Nihil Spellbomb, Withered Wretch and Phyrexian Furnace at the same time. Part of the reason for this is the fact that after sideboarding, decks tend to be way slower.
Dredge and most other graveyard strategies are just moot points now, it's time to really play cards that hurt survival, not cards that you can get the most mileage out of.
Concerning the idea of banning Survival, I'm against it, I ant to give it at least three more months. Perhaps in an additional three months people will realize that playing Affinity still doesn't beat anything and will start looking at how you combat the three blends of Survival decks.
However, I feel that Wizards is going to run the same experiment they did to see if Mystical Tutor was too good, if this happens then one of the format's trademark card is gone forever and we can all go back to watching people try to figure out how to optimize Affinity, they've been doing it this whole time, and that is why this problem has happened.
The Star City series is such a poor example of the Legacy metagame, it's frustrating to think that it may be the only source of tournament data that Wizard's pays attention to.
This. This man speaks so much truth it hurts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
+10.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
+11
I actually think I would prefer that WotC make their decision based on Tom LaPille's testing in the MODO practice room rather than the SCG 5K results.
I absolutely love how half of you people are basically the reincarnations of the "Flash isn't overpowered" people.
Look, if you don't get it by now, Vengevine Survival fights through any normal amount of hate. Yes, you can beat the deck, if you metagame like 12-20 hate cards between maindeck and sideboard. But it took a lot less to beat Reanimator.
Vengevine is sweeping the format. Constantly. You can keep screaming your "People refuse to adapt" line forever, but you're ridiculous. The results continue to back me up. The deck just wins.
Take the following card.
Turn Two Win
:2:
Artifact
You can't play Turn Two Win on your first turn.
Sacrifice Turn Two Win: You win the game.
I mean, clearly this card's not all that good. It's antisynergistic with mana acceleration, for crying out loud. If anyone wins a game with it, it's the metagame's fault for not adapting. Goblins should have been packing maindeck Pithing Needle and Artifact Blast, or splashing Blue for Stifle, Annul, Spell Snare, and Commandeer like all the other blue decks. It's completely vulnerable to Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Duress, AND Cabal Therapy. Green has Rust, if you can afford to shell out $45 apiece for them since they're the answer to this card in Standard as well (They HAD to reprint it, after all.) And for all the people complaining that people cast this with Daze backup when you only have one land draw? You should have been packing Spirit Guides, Moxes, Petals, and more importantly, you should have been winning the die roll. Learn to roll better, you burden on society you.
OR, we can realize that after a point, things can actually be broken. We can realize that when something continues to dominate tournament after tournament and flies in the face of the unsubstantiated playtesting data of a few individuals with skewed opinions to begin with, that Vengevine >> Legacy. This is coming from the guy who originally posted that A: Vengevine was utter crap and unplayable in Legacy, and B: That it wasn't "That" scary and wasn't going to overpower the format. Learn to admit you're wrong like me.
PS: Good performance from Jacestill at Starcity, guys.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Yeah, I've totally seen a bunch of Jacestill decks preying on Survival. Too bad they made nowhere near the top16.
Or play combo, which is faster than Veggies. Or the new Jacestills, which prey on Veggies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
All you have is anedoctal evidence. It's a self-fulling prophecy in which Survival decks are going to be "dominating" the format since a lot of people are playing it. It was the same way with CounterTop, Zoo and Merfolk. I also love how you make even the most sublte comparison between this deck and Flash Hulk. Just because Veggies are good against the current meta doesn't mean that Legacy is entering Flash Hulk 2.0.
I hear Enchantress decks are good against Veggies. Maybe try new decks instead of concluding that a ban is needed?
What doesn't help the deck right now is the sheer number of players using it, which is in part why it shows so many great results. I'd be sad if Survival were axed, as it's very fun to play with and against.
Q: When is the next date for the DCI bans? Dec 2010 or March 2011?
The next DCI updates would be on Dec 2010.
I think you make a good point when it comes to the popularity of Survival Decks.
Players by the boatload are playing Survival Decks, then you have players playing their petdecks that just got outdated with the current meta shift.
I think Tempo decks had their time, so are CounterTop.
December is the next scheduled update.
Look, I was crying for Flash to be banned the moment the lists were hitting the internet. I know vengevine is a busted card, free things normally are, and I hope that if they do ban anything that it's the Vine and not Survival. Though as i said before I have little faith in the DCI making that desicion competently.
However, in my, albeit personal and anecdotal, experience.... The deck is beatable. Combo generally beats it, i've not had much trouble with it with dragon stompy in testing, i've beaten it with LED-less dredge (i know i already mentioned combo)... The deck isn't God. It's very strong, but it's not infallable, and I think if the meta shifts enough the deck will start to fall.
If it doesn't, which is entirely possible for a variety of reasons: Playskill, metagaming, peoples refusal to adapt, people sayign "fuck it, if you can't beat it join it," etc.... Then I think they should ban Vengevine and leave survival. I'd rather be playing GW Survival with retainer/iona and Ooze combo than Vines, but as I said, i doubt that's going to happen.
I think there was more than a reasonable amount of hate for Survival decks in the last Starcity tournament:
4x Aven Mindcesor, 3x Extirpate and tons of discard; 4x Spell Snare MD with 3x Spell Pierce, 2x Pithing Needle, and 3x Hibernation SB; MB Pithing Needle with Peacekeeper and Spell Pierce in the SB; etc.
Survival still took the top two spots and dominated the top 16. People are adapting to the deck, and its still performing better than a reasonable deck should.
+100Quote:
Re: Survival of the Fittest
+10.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
The Star City series is such a poor example of the Legacy metagame, it's frustrating to think that it may be the only source of tournament data that Wizard's pays attention to.
Is there another source they should be paying attention to? Which ones?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
Survival of the Fittest was such a cool, fun card back in the day. It's Wizards own fault that it is so broken now, though. When you had to discard a creature to search for another creature, the card was fair. It wasn't until Wizards began printing cards that made it beneficial to discard creatures into the GY (see Vengevine, Necrotic Ooze). Even if Vengevine is banned, people will find other ways to abuse Survival (possibly using the Loyal Retainers/Iona/Emrakul or Necrotic Ooze combos) or Wizards will screw up again and just continue to print more creatures that allow Survival to go bonkers. I love the card, but I think that Survival itself is the card that needs to be banned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Yup, survival was one of my favorite decks back in 1998 and I've always liked the card, but I completely agree with what Tacosnape has been saying over and over, that after people have prepared and SB for vengevine survival that it still crushes tournaments. Wizards has stated numerous times that they'd ban the enabler than anything else so there isn't any limitations of future prints.Quote:
Originally Posted by TossUsToLions
On the other side of the ocean, the last couple of LCL tournaments (100+ players) were clearly dominated by Survival too. The metagame here in Barcelona is quite similar to what's been seen in Boston/Charlotte SCG $5K's.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
They have also already printed a shitty replacement in form of Fauna Shaman that gets them money.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanderAlexander
I completely support this statement. Results speak for themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
This doesn't necessarily mean that Survival will get banned. Both cards are needed for the combo to work, and survival has been OK in legacy for a long time, so we can assume that banning Vengevine will make Survival safe again. Vengevine is a "free spell", with the help of Survival it gets boosted, but we have no data to prove that without Survival it will be safe either (although I reckon it will be way less strong).Quote:
Originally Posted by PanderAlexander
Not only tutors get banned. Afaik, the most powerful spell I know is a :0: accelerator.
That's not the point, read what I said, or better yet you dont' have to and just look at what they have banned before. Just like when they banned mystical tutor for their own reason of future instants and sorcery prints, "if" they were to ban a card it would be Survival because that card "would put restrictions" on what creature cards they print in the future, they may make a mistake and print a too powerful creature that has synergery with Survival. Once again who knows if they will ban a card this coming December, it maybe 50/50, but if they were to ban one the obvious one is Survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
I'm ok with you point PanderAlexander but they been making horredouns creatures like, eldrazis and progenitus and at the same time they designed very carefullly to not be cheated into play with reanimator spells or come into play abilities.
I think that magic involve creatures and survival involve beating the oponent with creatures. Is what they like.
Though I might be wrong (I wasn't there), I've never heard that. Considering top 8 data:Quote:
Originally Posted by piZZero
LCL September (105 players)
Top8
1. TES
2. GWu Madness Survival
3. Merfolk
4. Big Zoo
5. Pox
6. Welder Survival - no veggies
7. Ichorid
8. TES
Metagame breakdown
LCL October (100 players)
Top 8
1. Bant Countertop
2. ProBant Countertop
3. Welder Survival - no veggies
4. Merfolks
5. Rebels (lol)
6. R/G Goblins
7. Gw Survival
8. Ooze Survival
No betagame breakdown available at the moment.
And look at those Countertop Bant with MD Pithing Needle and SB Aven Mindcensor... All sarcasm aside, I wasn't there and, again, I might be wrong, but as far as Top 8 data goes and considering what other catalan players say, I don't have the impression that Survival is clearly dominating that metagame.
And maybe we europeans are dumb (not denying it) but I see plenty of top 8 results that differ from what we see in the SCG Open series. For example:
Landfall 2 (Italy) - 10/03/10 - 121 players - 2 Vengevine decks out of 8
Eternal Weekend (Spain) - 10/10/10 - 293 players - 2 out of 8 - Metagame breakdown available - Spring Tide sucks.
Open Last Chance CDF Legacy (France) - 16/10/10 - 178 players - 0 out of 8 (1 out of 16) - Anyways, not decklists as far as I know and Berserk Stompy sucks too.
The SCG results have always been different, less diverse than every other tournament, I don't know why, maybe the people playing in the SCG Opens are the best Legacy players in the world, probably, but I haven't feel that dominance in other metagames.
This post doesn't try to uphold the idea that VV is not that powerful, I can't tell, I just say that I don't feel that dominace we currently see in the SCG Open series happens everywhere. If we had had SCG Opens back in 2009, everybody in the top 16 would have played Nassif Countertop and maindecked Grips so that Top should have been banned or something.