[Deck] U/R Delver

I don't think Temporal Mastery will get the Ban-Hammer in Legacy, as I honestly don't see it running away with the show. Control will simply stop it from happening, as Stifle is still in action (to mention one card) and other decks like Maverick will still give you a 4 turn clock to get it done or die.

It's a cool card; and it might prove me wrong, but I don't think the miracle cast will be that awesome.

Player draws Temporal Mastery, you cast Vendilion Clique and remove it from his hand... I just see a lot of ways around it where things like Time Walk can simply be useful right from T1 forward.

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Originally Posted by SupREME-10

I don't think Temporal Mastery will get the Ban-Hammer in Legacy, as I honestly don't see it running away with the show. Control will simply stop it from happening, as Stifle is still in action (to mention one card) and other decks like Maverick will still give you a 4 turn clock to get it done or die.

It's a cool card; and it might prove me wrong, but I don't think the miracle cast will be that awesome.

Player draws Temporal Mastery, you cast Vendilion Clique and remove it from his hand... I just see a lot of ways around it where things like Time Walk can simply be useful right from T1 forward.

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I don't think that Vendilion Clique will be able to stop a card played via Miracle, as the card would already have been cast, and would no longer be in that player's hand (this is simply based on my understanding of the wording). Of course, I could be wrong.

As for the future of Temporal Mastery, we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Kind Regards,
jares

Your understanding is incorrect. Player draws card (the thing they just used a Brainstorm or Jace or some other mechanism to set to the top of their library); Vendilion Clique is then played, the ability triggers as Miracle is not at instant speed, and the Temporal Mastery is set to the bottom of their library and they get to draw another card. Seriously, Control players have been using Vendilion for a long time now, and coupled with things like Karakas they can do some fate-sealing quite often.

You are correct about time being the true test if Temporal Mastery is any good though.

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Originally Posted by SupREME-10

Your understanding is incorrect. Player draws card (the thing they just used a Brainstorm or Jace or some other mechanism to set to the top of their library); Vendilion Clique is then played, the ability triggers as Miracle is not at instant speed, and the Temporal Mastery is set to the bottom of their library and they get to draw another card. Seriously, Control players have been using Vendilion for a long time now, and coupled with things like Karakas they can do some fate-sealing quite often.

You are correct about time being the true test if Temporal Mastery is any good though.

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I was under the impression miracle is triggered at instant speed and/or can be done in response to vendilion clique.

Given it's on their draw step, you should never get priority to cast vendilion clique before they can cast Temporal Mastery, or am I mistaken about this?

Draw step, active player has priority, active player draws his card, upon drawing card (according to the ruling of miracle) he is required to immediately play the card for it's miracle cost if he intends to do so, and then the priority is passed to the opponent to either respond to or play spells at the end of the draw step.

For clarity on my understanding of it:

"You may cast this card for it's Miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn."

To me this implies that despite it being a sorcery you are capable of playing it at instant speed as you are using an ability of the card that states that you can. Essentially giving a sorcery card conditional flash. This would also imply that, were you to use a SDT and flip it EOT to cast temporal mastery, you'd get a lot more out of your two turns as you'd get 2 untap steps.

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"You may cast this card for it's Miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn."

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Is this not a triggered ability? Don't triggers need to resolve before their effects can take place? To me it looks like Clique can be used with the Miracle trigger on the stack.

I still read the card as a Sorcery

From the mothership:

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Miracle is a new keyword that allows you to cast some instants and sorceries for very little mana when you draw them.

As you draw an instant or sorcery with miracle, if it's the first card you've drawn this turn, you can immediately reveal it. When you do so, you may cast it for its miracle cost. It doesn't matter whether it's an instant or sorcery; if you choose to cast it, you do so right away, even if it's at a time (such as your draw step) when you couldn't normally cast it. You're not required to reveal a miracle card, even if you could pay for it. You can always choose to just draw it as normal.

You're allowed to cast the first card you draw each turn if it has miracle, so if you find ways to draw cards during your opponent's turn, you get another chance for a game-breaking, miraculous moment.

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Now that I look at it, Miracle may be a static effect that grants castability when it's the first card drawn for the turn.

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Originally Posted by SupREME-10

Your understanding is incorrect. Player draws card (the thing they just used a Brainstorm or Jace or some other mechanism to set to the top of their library); Vendilion Clique is then played, the ability triggers as Miracle is not at instant speed, and the Temporal Mastery is set to the bottom of their library and they get to draw another card. Seriously, Control players have been using Vendilion for a long time now, and coupled with things like Karakas they can do some fate-sealing quite often.

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I'm afraid that your understanding is incorrect. I just based my understanding on what I got to read from the card (and the mechanic), but don't take my word for it - the comment provided by whienot is probably the most reliable reference.

Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by whienot

From the mothership:




Now that I look at it, Miracle may be a static effect that grants castability when it's the first card drawn for the turn.

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I'm not sure, though, if Miracle can be Stifled. It seems like it can, because it says "...when...", which makes it a triggered ability.

Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Regards,
jares

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702.91. Miracle

702.91a Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability (see rule 603.10). "Miracle [cost]" means "You may reveal this card from your hand as you draw it if it's the first card you've drawn this turn. When you reveal this card this way, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."

702.91b If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her hand, that ability resolves, or that ability otherwise leaves the stack.

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There it is. Miracle can be Stifled and otherwise responded to.

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Originally Posted by whienot

There it is. Miracle can be Stifled and otherwise responded to.

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Right, and it essentially gives it instant speed, meaning you can't clique it out of their hand, it's already being cast. It is a sorcery, but it's a sorcery card with conditional flash. The miracle trigger explicitly states that you play it when you reveal it.

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Originally Posted by whienot

There it is. Miracle can be Stifled and otherwise responded to.

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That clears things up. Thanks.

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by Kich867

Right, and it essentially gives it instant speed, meaning you can't clique it out of their hand, it's already being cast. It is a sorcery, but it's a sorcery card with conditional flash. The miracle trigger explicitly states that you play it when you reveal it.

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Being a sorcery has nothing to do with resolving the miracle ability, but the miracle trigger has to resolve before you can pay costs and place the spell on the stack.

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Miracle [cost]" means "You may reveal this card from your hand as you draw it if it's the first card you've drawn this turn. When you reveal this card this way, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."

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When you reveal this card this way , you must pass priority.

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Originally Posted by whienot

Being a sorcery has nothing to do with resolving the miracle ability, but the miracle trigger has to resolve before you can pay costs and place the spell on the stack.



When you reveal this card this way , you must pass priority.

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If that's the case, then you can indeed respond to it using Vendilion Clique.

Cheers,
jares

Stifle just got better by another margin.

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Originally Posted by Blitzbold

Stifle just got better by another margin.

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Yup. I asked this in the spoiler thread. Glad it's cleared up.

So you can respond when they reveal and pass priority, etc... and you can use things such as Stifle on it as well.

Maybe the card is a little more broken than I initially thought (as I did see it as a Sorcery); but I still see a lot of things that work around it, control it, etc... and the Miracle is not going to happen that often without manipulation so it will take time and effort to execute well. Which gives our deck time to respond better in turn.

Thanks for clearing that up guys

Vexing Devil :r:
Creature - Devil Rare
When Vexing Devil enters the battlefield, any opponent may have it deal 4 damage to him or her. If a player does, sacrifice Vexing Devil.
4/3

0.0

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Originally Posted by GranataGoblin

Vexing Devil :r:
Creature - Devil Rare
When Vexing Devil enters the battlefield, any opponent may have it deal 4 damage to him or her. If a player does, sacrifice Vexing Devil.
4/3

0.0

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Looks like burn just got better.

That card does sound good for Sligh/Burn... might even work in this deck (maybe).

forget about temporal mastery...

vexing devil is the card this deck needs.

Use capitalization please. Thanks. -zilla

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Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow

forget about temporal mastery...

vexing devil is the card this deck needs.

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Quoted for truth; but I think that I will actually try to use 4x Vexing Devil.

Vexing Devil is probably better in this deck than Burn actually, because you can protect it with a counterspell when the opponent figures "Oh, I'll let it resolve and then bolt/stp/whatever it."

For now i am uncertain if you really want the Devil in U/R.
I would neither cut Delver nor Goblin Guide.
And Snapcaster / Lavamancer are out of the question.

Lavamancer is so great vs Maverick. And Snapcaster is what gives us card advantage.
So in what spot shall the Devil fit ?
Less Brainstorming? This Deck is all about Card quality so.. it doesnt fit for this

Less Burn? // LB / CL ? I would never trade a 3dmg spell on creature or player to a situational card like Devil

Less Counters? I really like the amount of counters i have so why should i give them up.
I cant see him fit in this deck at all.

It could be possible to build an U/R Zoo with the Devil on the purpose of more quality creatures but that would be a different Deck in my opinion.

regards

Keep in mind that you always want to run a really high amount of instants and sorceries (26+) for blind flipping delver so cutting any non creature spells for more creatures is out of question. The only substitutable card seems to be the Guide in the current builds. I will give it a try for sure because the Guides' drawback gets worse along with the level of play skill of your opponents which was always kind of unsatisfying for me.

I am pretty unsure about the miracle cards. The blue one seems to be hyped crap to me while I could easily see the red one fit as a 2 off here.
Regarding the blue one - time walk is good in vintage because so much more happens during every turn because of the the much higher power level of the individual cards. Yet I can see no legacy deck profiting from the blue miracle card in the same way as a vintage deck running power, will, recall, ...

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Originally Posted by Dmnd

For now i am uncertain if you really want the Devil in U/R.
I would neither cut Delver nor Goblin Guide.
And Snapcaster / Lavamancer are out of the question.

Lavamancer is so great vs Maverick. And Snapcaster is what gives us card advantage.
So in what spot shall the Devil fit ?
Less Brainstorming? This Deck is all about Card quality so.. it doesnt fit for this

Less Burn? // LB / CL ? I would never trade a 3dmg spell on creature or player to a situational card like Devil

Less Counters? I really like the amount of counters i have so why should i give them up.
I cant see him fit in this deck at all.

It could be possible to build an U/R Zoo with the Devil on the purpose of more quality creatures but that would be a different Deck in my opinion.

regards

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I illustrated earlier in the thread that the current model of running 7-10 counters and snapcaster mages aren't good for the deck.

It is not a different deck to build this as a sligh deck, which it very much should be. Notice the what, 1 month period this deck was a DTB? Because people weren't prepared for it at all and for a quick minute people were wrecking with it.

Except people then began trying to add more counter-magic to it, and cards that intend to go into the late game.

Put flatly, snapcaster mage in this deck is terrible. 3 mana burns or brainstorms aren't good, they're bad, and there's no actual reason to run him. He's done cool things for me, but ironically, it's because he was flashing back bolts.

Zilla probably has the best concept of the deck: all burn goes to their face, swing with your creatures until they're dead, only brainstorm/ponder for gas. And that's it. Daze is questionable at best and only really worth it around turn 2 or 3 when you already have sufficient lands down to keep playing things through it, but T1 daze'ing is awful for this deck.

This is the list I would / probably will be playing for UR Delver:

//Creatures: 12
4x Goblin Guide
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Vexing Devil

//Instants: 13
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Thunderous Wrath

//Sorceries: 17
4x Rift Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
2x Lava Spike
2x Price of Progress
2x Fireblast
3x Ponder

//Lands: 18

I'd be inclined to drop ponder for lava spikes in some number, but the card filtering will help set up turn 3 Thunderous Wrath bombs and I'm a pretty big fan of it in general.

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Originally Posted by Kich867

I illustrated earlier in the thread that the current model of running 7-10 counters and snapcaster mages aren't good for the deck.

It is not a different deck to build this as a sligh deck, which it very much should be. Notice the what, 1 month period this deck was a DTB? Because people weren't prepared for it at all and for a quick minute people were wrecking with it.

Except people then began trying to add more counter-magic to it, and cards that intend to go into the late game.

Put flatly, snapcaster mage in this deck is terrible. 3 mana burns or brainstorms aren't good, they're bad, and there's no actual reason to run him. He's done cool things for me, but ironically, it's because he was flashing back bolts.

Zilla probably has the best concept of the deck: all burn goes to their face, swing with your creatures until they're dead, only brainstorm/ponder for gas. And that's it. Daze is questionable at best and only really worth it around turn 2 or 3 when you already have sufficient lands down to keep playing things through it, but T1 daze'ing is awful for this deck.

This is the list I would / probably will be playing for UR Delver:

//Creatures: 12
4x Goblin Guide
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Vexing Devil

//Instants: 13
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Thunderous Wrath

//Sorceries: 17
4x Rift Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
2x Price of Progress
2x Fireblast
3x Ponder

//Lands: 18

I'd be inclined to drop ponder for lava spikes in some number, but the card filtering will help set up turn 3 Thunderous Wrath bombs and I'm a pretty big fan of it in general.

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I guess that this essentially means that you'll be swapping Vexing Devil for the slots of Snapcaster Mage.

I also really like Thunderous Wrath for this deck, as I even believe that no other deck (among the established ones at least) would be able to utilize that card better.

Kind Regards,
jares

I agree that Thunderous Wrath may have a place in this deck. I am running a couple Fireblast and a couple Fire//Ice so I think that the F&I might be on the way out; oh and now I have almost the exact list listed above.... man that is a lot like Canadian Thresh without the Green for Goyf, but maybe we can get back to being a DTB.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...9&d=1333846379

Bryant Cook suggested in his new article that for UR burn players that want to run Thunder Wrath should consider taking out Fireblasts as:

A- Deals more damage.

B- Has a less severe drawkback if countered.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...vacyn-Restored

Vexing Devil is crap in this deck. It's that much worse than chain lightning because it doesn't hit creatures. And banking on your opponents making the "wrong" choice and then having the counter for their removal doesn't sound good.

What about the new UR land? 1UR + tap is steep and the colorless is almost useless for us. But being able to cycle lands, dead miracles in hand and even feeding snapcaster/lavamancer could be good. Maybe 1-of or 2-of?

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Vexing Devil is crap in this deck. It's that much worse than chain lightning because it doesn't hit creatures. And banking on your opponents making the "wrong" choice and then having the counter for their removal doesn't sound good.

What about the new UR land? 1UR + tap is steep and the colorless is almost useless for us. But being able to cycle lands, dead miracles in hand and even feeding snapcaster/lavamancer could be good. Maybe 1-of or 2-of?

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This deck shouldn't be letting people live long enough for us to hit 4 lands. There's no reason to.

Running a bunch of counters in a deck where our "bomb" is delver of secrets, that doesn't get there.

It works for Canadian Thresh because tarmogoyfs can be huge blockers, they run jace, they run way more counters than we do, they run more land, it's a control deck. UR Delver isn't, and shouldn't ever be.

The deck runs 18 lands, when do you even hit 4 lands and/or why aren't you getting rid of them for business with brainstorm to kill them? The deck can't afford colorless lands, which is why we don't run wasteland (because we don't care if they have land).

Vexing Devil hitting the opponent for 4 damage is the most astronomically awesomest shit ever. There exists no other spell that hits someone for 4 damage for 1 mana outside of thunderous wrath, which -requires- setup, this doesn't.

I illustrated some of these points in the burn thread, and probably here already, but really, what does your opponent actually do when you drop multiples of these? What do they do when they sword your flipping turn 1 delver and turn 2 you drop back to back devils. They likely don't have removal, if they take the 8 they're -surely- dead. If they don't take the 8 -they're probably dead- next turn.

I'm blown away that people aren't recognizing how face-smashingly broken that card is for it's casting cost. Arguments that late-game it'll never be the burn you want it to be don't matter, you're not hitting the late-game with this deck, it only matters what it is for the first 3 turns and it doesn't even matter what they pick--I don't even care--because whatever it is is a huge step forward toward killing them.

The argument that they'll just kill it is silly too. Why even bother playing Delver of Secrets then, or Goblin Guide? Or Grim Lavamancer? They'll just die anyways right? This deck should never point burn at a creature unless it's stoneforge mystic and they just tutored batterskull or it's a creature being equipped by jitte. That's pretty much it. Those are all the things. Unfortunately we can't only play burns in this deck, we have to run creatures, and this thing's power is too strong not to.

I've made enough power plays of Delver > Guide > Guide, and sometimes that gets there, but sometimes they drop a mishra's factory and sword my delver. If that was Delver > Devil > Devil, that's a pretty scary position for someone to be in, if they take 8 or not.

I really hate all of the HILARIOUSLY BAD anti-Devil arguments that have been used between the various threads on The Source.

"It can be blocked!"

"I can remove it and not take 4!"

"It's just a Lava Spike!"

"They'll pick the least harmful effect!"

Yeah, not having the choice of a 4/3 or 4 damage for 1 is SO HORRIBLE OH GOD IT'S BROWBEAT ALL OVER AGAIN BADBADBADBADBADBADBADBADBAD!

Holy shit.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I really hate all of the HILARIOUSLY BAD anti-Devil arguments that have been used between the various threads on The Source.

"It can be blocked!"

"I can remove it and not take 4!"

"It's just a Lava Spike!"

"They'll pick the least harmful effect!"

Yeah, not having the choice of a 4/3 or 4 damage for 1 is SO HORRIBLE OH GOD IT'S BROWBEAT ALL OVER AGAIN BADBADBADBADBADBADBADBADBAD!

Holy shit.

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Wait until you topdeck this creature when the opponent is at 3 life with a Maze of Ith/Mother of Runes/Knight of the Reliquary. You are going to wish this was a Chain Lightning. I'm not even saying it's a bad card for itself, I'm just saying that the possiblity of being a dead draw might not be enough to justify the extra point of damage.

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Wait until you topdeck this creature when the opponent is at 3 life with a Maze of Ith/Mother of Runes/Knight of the Reliquary. You are going to wish this was a Chain Lightning. I'm not even saying it's a bad card for itself, I'm just saying that the possiblity of being a dead draw might not be enough to justify the extra point of damage.

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Well you can say the same for Goblin Guide, Delver, etc.. in that postion. Hell name any creature there and it's a dead draw other then Grimmy. I'm not playing this exact deck but I'm playing fairly close to it and when Devil and Wrath are printed my list is going to be really close to one that Kich867 put out there.

I can see Devil being really good and if you want to bring up worse case scenarios then you could put pretty much any creature there and still get the same result.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Wait until you topdeck this creature when the opponent is at 3 life with a Maze of Ith/Mother of Runes/Knight of the Reliquary. You are going to wish this was a Chain Lightning. I'm not even saying it's a bad card for itself, I'm just saying that the possiblity of being a dead draw might not be enough to justify the extra point of damage.

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That's an invalid comparison though. Think hard, logically, how is that even a possibility. It is virtually impossible to draw this card over a chain lightning in that scenario. You take two identical lists, you replace say, Grim Lavamancer, with this guy.

On the turn you're describing, you would have drawn Grim Lavamancer.

So then you ask yourself--in what situation would I rather see Grim Lavamancer than Vexing Devil.

This can't possibly be that hard for this many people to get. You aren't replacing burn. So when you see him instead of a burn, you would have lost anyways. I can give you hypotheticals for days where Black Lotus is the worst possible top-deck it doesn't make it a bad card nor does it warrant exclusion in a list.

It is fundamentally impossible for you to topdeck this over any other card except for, in my case, Grim Lavamancer. If you want to drop burn for him, be my guest, that's a poor decision. But as a veteran of this deck I'm telling you that Grim Lavamancer is not that great, rarely impressive at all.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Vexing Devil is crap in this deck. It's that much worse than chain lightning because it doesn't hit creatures.

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The funny thing about Vexing Devil is that it's a creature masquerading as a burn spell, which is why people would sometimes treat it as such. It's a creature, folks, and it would be helpful for us to take note of this fact amidst all our other considerations for this card.

Regards,
jares

I am with Kich on this one too.

//Creatures: 12
4x Goblin Guide
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Vexing Devil

//Instants: 13
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Thunderous Wrath

//Sorceries: 17
4x Rift Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
2x Price of Progress
2x Fireblast
3x Ponder

//Lands: 18

Looks like a pretty friggen good start, we can tweak it as we test it. I might add 2x Grim Lavamancer by removing 2x Ponder or 2x PoP (as some meta's don't use greedy mana bases); but his idea is solid to start with. I am running 14 creatures right now anyway, so it is pretty easy for me to sub in 4 devils for my 4 snapcasters.

I dissagree about the need of Wasteland though, and I will retain 3 in my deck and tweak it later if I need to. I hate facing Maze of Ith, etc.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I really hate all of the HILARIOUSLY BAD anti-Devil arguments that have been used between the various threads on The Source.

"It can be blocked!"

"I can remove it and not take 4!"

"It's just a Lava Spike!"

"They'll pick the least harmful effect!"

Yeah, not having the choice of a 4/3 or 4 damage for 1 is SO HORRIBLE OH GOD IT'S BROWBEAT ALL OVER AGAIN BADBADBADBADBADBADBADBADBAD!

Holy shit.

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We should probably make a collection of these hilarious comments just for kicks. You can add "It's that much worse than chain lightning because it doesn't hit creatures" to the list. I'm sure that we can gather more from the Burn thread. :laugh:

This is probably my favorite so far:

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Originally Posted by Marke

Yes R for 4 to the dome is ALWAYS good (but not spectactular) in this type of deck. R for a 4/3 is however NOT

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I'm glad that the day of when a vanilla 4/3 Creature for :r: would no longer spectacular hasn't arrived yet. Last I checked, that Creature for :1::g: that starts with a "T" and ends with an "armogoyf" is still regarded very highly (as a 4/5, more often than not).

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by SupREME-10

I might add 2x Grim Lavamancer by removing 2x Ponder or 2x PoP (as some meta's don't use greedy mana bases)...

I dissagree about the need of Wasteland though, and I will retain 3 in my deck and tweak it later if I need to. I hate facing Maze of Ith, etc.

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I think that, if non-basic lands are really a concern, then Price of Progress would surely be able to help with that, not to mention that it'll also be able to support the "Burn" game plan better than Wasteland.

I find that Grim Lavamancer is an excellent card to have in the current meta, though, so I would surely try to make some space for it if possible.

Regards,
jares

I am finding that Wastland works to remove the problem land
Maze of Ith means that I can not get my beater through repeatedly.
Mishra's Factory means that my attack route is cleared for the beater.
Karakas means that I don't see Vendilion on a stick, etc.

So yes Price of Progress might do more damage occasionally in one shot at my opponents lands, Wasteland often gets my beaters more successful hits into the red zone or prevents stabilizing Shenanigans. I think that it is a matter of 6 of those or half dozen of these... If your using PoP then Wasteland is not so good, and vice-a-versa. but I also only run 3x Volcanic Island as I find basic lands can actually win most games for you anyway... I also mix up my fetchlands to avoid things like Surigal Extraction putting me into a mana screw situation. I am weird like that but that is how I roll.

PS, I also run 19 lands to be honest though, as I run a 61 card deck (I know, that is just oh so wrong for so many people; but it works for me).