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Agree with this. Conversely, becoming known as 'the storm player' can leave you with people mulliganing aggressively against you. I believe that storm is better in larger tournaments where people don't know you (guess that can be said of most decks).Quote:
Originally Posted by anomie-p
So trueQuote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
Then again Bryant Cook recently top 8'd a large tournament a weekend ago so tight play can also get you where you need to be (;Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
Well yes, obviously :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JPoJohnson
I'm just saying, it's not a non-factor.
On the other side of the coin, sometimes I'll announce storm count when I have no intention of comboing them. Land, Petal, "Storm is one", cantrip, "Storm is 2", etc. Some people like to counter your cantrips, and even though that's normally incorrect, it's annoying as hell. You can also bait some players into countering something irrelevant by putting dat tendrilz fear in 'em so you can resolve a Xantid Swarm or a Therapy to help clear a path.Quote:
Originally Posted by mishima_kazuya
I've also found that it's hard to keep it under wraps that you're storming people out. In the US, at least, people tend to crowd around combo players in-game, or complain at length when they lose to combo. Doing things like opening Misty Rainforest into Volcanic to play a turn 1 Ponder might make a lot of people think you're a RUG player with a slow hand, but in the end we all really just need to learn how to beat the hate. Tight play > mind games, every time.
Plan B: Build up a local reputation in the region as the guy who is 50% on Maverick(or any other midrange strategy) and 50% on AnT.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregtron
Therefore you are 50% to have your opponent keeping a bad hand in the dark. :tongue:
Until R1 is over and everyone knows :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by mishima_kazuya
I think preordain is the dead give away someone is on storm. I am only running two (not for that reason). Vault and Mox Diamond have replaced them. I have found it is fairly easy to throw your opponent off by pretending you are considering casting a Force of Will every time they want to cast a spell. This is one great way to get them to tap out, especially in the current meta because of all the Spell Pierces. This meta game seems to cause me to want to cast the vault, or a quick Ad Nauseum, and that is why I am playing with Diamond which is working really well.
I am not saying to cut Preordains just to have information advantage. I am not counting on winning a tournament because my opponents kept bad hands in the dark.Quote:
Originally Posted by jtos84
I dislike Mox Diamond in this deck, since lands are generally are a premium here. AnT is flexible enough to run the long game, so making land drops is somewhat important. If I really want to cut Preordain for another mana source, I would rather just play a 5 color land or even a Crystal Vein/City of Traitors.
I was already playing with two Preordains. I have been for quite a while. Normally I really do not like Mox Diamond, but the metagame is making it work out well for me. If the meta goes back to less storm hate, I would rather play Grim Tutor in the main, get rid of Mox Diamond, and play with three Preordains.Quote:
Originally Posted by mishima_kazuya
My buddy and i were trolling around yesterday about mindtricking the opponent and he suggested an old and antique cantrip:
Portent.
Well,i's like Ponder#5 which draws the cards not immediately but in the next upkeep so it's supposed to be a cantrip to set up a hand and load the gun rather than a card in the actual combo turn.
So What does portent tell our opponent?
Actually,...that you are a budget storm player whatever.
Don't take this suggestion to seriously guys :D
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
That's kind of the sweet thing about the island/misty/misty I had on the board at the time. I knew he had wasteland in the deck, and I knew he didn't have stifles. I wasn't even attempting to trick him, I was just letting my fetches sit because I had no reason to use them yet, neither get black without getting a dual, grabbing a dual opens me up to wasteland, I already have blue, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregtron
(and, well, I guess it being misty instead of say scalding tarn ... but I'd have to take apart my UWR delver to put tarns in my ant, which is why my ant runs misty - I get to let my 11 year old kick my behind w/ meddling mages and try to play through them ... I am 1-2 in practice matches against that kid, he seems to *always* get the meddling mages :D )
... Also tried this before ;) the reason is you can rearrange opps library... The card is good, fun, has great art but unfortunate nombo with PiF disqualifies itQuote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
I tested 2-3 lightning bolt in my deck the last 2 days instead of 1 cantrip,1 lotus petal and 1 thoughtseize.
Bolting a shaman makes a lot of sense if your primary route to victory is only past in flames (and tutor chain as always).
However i tested the bolts in my 2 Ad Nauseam List and they weren't really necessary because i don't care about creatures in g1 (except hatebears g1,a rare thing)
I then tested chain if vapour in the bolt slots,which is also an removal spell that bounces all annoying permanents or just delays a shaman by 1 turn.
(Well and you can bounce your own led in the comboturn to get more storm counts,...)
Finally i wasn't sure about these 3,let's say "removal" slots.
Are they worth it? Isn't it just better to fill them with the cantrips and discard spells again.
To be honest i'm not sure.
(To have both cantrip and removal,i also thought about repeal but that's another story)
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
Did you ever use bolt to facilitate a kill? There have been times when I was a 3 points or so away from a clean Tendrils kill, so by extension, there have been games when I was one Lightning Bolt away from a kill. The manabase is stretched thin already, though, with having to cast Past in Flames, Dark Ritual, and Abrupt Decay while fetching basic lands to avoid the Wasteland blowout. It would be nice to Bolt, combo, flashback Bolt to generate two extra storm while adding three storm worth of damage, but shit, RRR is pretty hard to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
If I would have made it in time ... job issues
Mana is adjusted to the Wishes. That basically enables me to switch to "Grinding Station" on the fly and to have mainboard outs to crap
I like your idea! Interested in your list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Nice that Ant has maindeck outs to diff kinds of hate this way!
What did you cut for the Wishes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
One AdN obviously. Also Preordains? Do you still play Top then?
I was experimenting with Clutch of the Undercity since lately. It's nice that it can be transmuted into Tendrils and PiF and also is not entirely irrelevant on it's own. Also it can only be stifled.
Of cause I cut AdN and added another PiF and Tendrils to the deck.
Postboard it can also fetch up Massacre.
Any thoughts on Clutch?
Never played top. Never played Preordain. Cutted Ad Nauseam to only run the 5 "engine/kill-cards" in the picture. Wishing for Telemin in combo matchups is boarderline costwise. Wanted to give the idea a spin as Julian Knab was in town yesterday for an afterwork tourney, but didn't make it out of the office in time. 45min drive at 19pm to be already too late and hungry wasn't appealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoizeMe
Clutch can at least dig up Massacre in postboard games. Not sure if the cost/effect is worth it considering the fact that it Acts as a budget Grim Tutor. The lack of the later card was also my reason to toy around with the DW
I'm wondering about our sideboard,is there a reason why there aren't 2-3 copies of defense grid?
Very similar to xantid Swarm,but you can cast it and then just continue comboing.
Many players leave some removal spells in their deck because they fear swarm so it would be great to make those cards dead.
Usually they don't board in decay.
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
I can imagine a lot. Don't expect too much from a list I threw together yesterday morning before heading to work. There was no testing and stuff; just brainstorming over 3 basic lands between door and street :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
I have seen some lists that play it, Eric Rill used it on his last top 4 at a SCG event.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
I only side Xantid against Sneak and Show and Merfolk, and it is so goooooooood in those matchups, but i agree that Defense Grid might be worth testing.
Defense Grid is good against taxing counters, but doesn't do a thing against the worst offender - hard counters. Xantid Swarm and silence effects break them both, Carpet of Flowers/rituals kill off taxing counters. I'm not too happy about having another SB option against taxing counters when they're already so weak because our deck is already "full of mana".
While it is probably technically not wrong to play defense grid I can see some problems with it. You run the risk of not being able to cast infernal tutor in certain situations if it still in your hand. You might have to use a ritual or a petal to play it. It could actually keep you from protecting your hand with brainstorm on your opponents turn. That is a definite drawback.
I think it all comes down to your experience with the deck. S/bing can be a mess while learning to play the deck really well. In this meta I think Xantid swarm of some number is the right call. Of course this is a difficult meta for storm, so you might as well try out whatever you think can work.
I've always disliked playing a fourth color in my storm deck, so I've been playing with defense grids from the beginning. The second Grid you draw isn't bad either. It might cost you the turn to cast it, but there is no way anyone in legacy can muster up 6 mana to pay for a counter the turn after.
Another advantage is that it also is counterable by spellsnare, taking one more hard counter away from Infernal tutors. It's fun dropping it off show and tell as well.
I guess the current advantage I have with the grid is that next to no one expects it, I have no idea how counter magic based decks adapt once it becomes a more popular choice amongst decks.
This is a disadvantage. Chant effects make Spell Snares blanks. Grid does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Disciple of Skulls
I don't really like Defense Grid in a storm deck without Silence effects, since discard + grid does not beat multiple counters like chant + grid would.
4-0'd a local event last Sunday, with practically the same MD as BoM, played a third Decay and Top in the board because I expected a fair amount of Miracles. I beat Deathblade (2-0), UW Miracle Blade (2-1), U Omnishow (2-1) and UB Tezzeret Control (2-1). Had a pretty sweet play versus Tezz, when he cast Transmute Artifact with a Chalice@0 & Baleful Strix in play with 1 open mana (planning to get 3sphere from Strix). I decayed the Strix in response, which forced him to sac the Chalice@1 for a Chalice@0, after which I was able to set up a win.
Thank you all for your feedback to defense grid.
Next,i wanna know from you how you beat these 3 decks in particular because i have the most trouble with them:
- UW Miracle
- Reanimator
- Team America
Do we need specific sideboard cards against them? (my buddy suggested pithin needle -> senseis devining top)
Please give me some feedback on that, i just need some input concerning these 3 matchups.
Thank you !
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
you just listed our 3 worst matchups, it is pretty normal that you won't win a lot of those but I will try to give you a short guide anyway
Miracles:
Game 1 I think you are favoured because they do not have that much disruption, prevent them from setting up balance+ top and you should be fine. After sideboard I board in confidants, carpet of flowers and abrupt decay. Abrupt decay should be pretty self explanatory, dark confidant makes it really easy for you to natural tendrils them when they are at 16 our lower and the added card advantage makes it easier for you to overload their counters. The added cabal therapy flashback is also really good vs this matchup, even more so then others. Carpet of flowers is also good if the plan is to overload their counters. It generally makes enough mana to allow you to cast past in flames twice in 1 turn, and that should be enough.
Reanimator is a combo mirror, and these matchups are usually a coinflip. Because of their combination of both discard and countermagic the coin is slightly weighted in their favor. Game 1 is a pure race wich you are likely to lose if they untap after reanimating Griselbrand. Post sideboard I bring in 3 xantid swarms because it lets you ignore griselbrand's draw when you are ready to go off. I also happen to have 1 karakas in my deck wich is really good vs them.
As for Team America, I just give up on this matchup because I can not find a way to get a win percentage over something like 30 or 40%.
For reference, my list:
4 misty
4 delta
2 sea
1 volcanic
1 tropical
1 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
4 dark rit, cabal rit, petal, LED,tutor,cabal therapy,brainstorm,ponder,gitaxian probe
3 duress
2 preordain
1 PiF, tendrils, ad nauseam, sensei's divining top
SIDEBOARD
3 xantid swarm
3 abrupt decay
2 chain of vapor
2 dark confidant
2 carpet of flowers
1 karakas
1 empty the warrens
1 massacre
Thank you for the input.
Today i tested a lot against miracle with the following sideboarding:
-4 infernal tutor
-4 lions eye diamond
+3 tendrils of agony
+2 empty the warrens
+3 abrupt decay
After sideboarding the games went like this:
We both grind a lot until i have 2 stormspells in hand (2 tendrils or tendrils+empty)3-4 rituals and a decay to deal with counterbalance or canonist .8 spells into tendrils is also fine.
At end of his turn i decay the hate permanent and then play either double tendrils through countermagic or tendrils - empty
Well it worked,the mu felt like at least 50:50 postboard,maybe even better.
The strategy is also called grinding station which is invented by my buddy jona.
(Sidenote: i'm not a big fan of empties,should be dark confidants to fill the hand as quickly as possible)
G1 against miracle still feels horrible,if they resolve top the game is almost in their favour because they can now hide a counterspell on top of library,that really sucks.
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
I'm assuming no Ad Nauseam in the mainboard in this instance?Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
Miracle after side is a really good match-up.
Side-in Decay, all your Empty ( I love having 2 copies of it in my sb), more tendrils, Bobs, xantids and even an extra nauseam as an EOT lure. They won't be able to cope with all our threats.
I was thinking defense grid cost three mana, but it is only two. Against miracles it is probably good, but I think the storm hate is a little over the top anymore. I played in a tournament and went 3-1-2. I lost to Esperblade game one because my tendrils was removed by a shaman; won game two because they mulled into leyline of sanctity with only a karakas for many turns, then lost game three to two deathrite shamans, leyline of sanctity, and meddling mage. Against miracles I lost to a karakas clique repeat effect (which is not that bad) after I stripped three or four counters and a counterbalance out of their hand. Game two I lost to double ethersworn canonist. I could have gotten it, but my chain of vapor was spell pierced. Its fairly difficult to play storm in the first place, but when you know that is what you face all day no matter where you play it is not to awesome.
Nothing to do with the latest posts but I came up with Notion Thief as a x2 sideboard tech. Has anyone been really testing it so far?
Slosh. PM him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azdraël
Pardon? Force of Will for :3: and a card to pitch is brutal. More so is Force for :6::u::u:Quote:
Originally Posted by Machahiko
I don't know what other hard counters are played (except for a singleton Counterspell here and there), but Grid is good against any of them.
2x in my sideboard since it's release, until the tech gets spread and expected I do not feel a need for changeQuote:
Originally Posted by Azdraël
why? - Ant is the only deck which can reasonably catch T2 BS ~oops I win, I play it instead of Dark Confidant it's better vs. combo, mirrors especially (usually there are multiple Ant players in your LGS), faster, more impact, has synergy with my list, I do not play Ad Nauseam so CC is not a problem, is absolutely unexpected, is a fun card to play
application
- Miracles, hard control - prevents SDT counters, slows down opps development, Jace, 2-attacks make in Hand ToA reasonable strategy, sometimes catches lategame BS, unfortunately gets weaker with REBs
- U based combo - gives you strong edge through entire game
I do not usually use it vs. blue based "midrange" - not enough targets, not enough impact
...actually I had a really long post ready yesterday until blue death stifled my computer... maybe I'll find some time next week
I'd indeed appreciate if you could develop it more, thx!
For those that might be interested, I think this is the correct s/b for the meta game.
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Karakas
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dread of Night
1 Massacre
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Grim Tutor
2 Ignorant Bliss
Ignorant bliss comes in for TA, or anything running heavy discard. Grim Tutor is for matches like reanimator, esperdeathblade, or anything not running a bunch of spell pierces. Xantid swarm is for heavy counter obv. Massacre is for pretty much anything blue anymore since hatebears are all over. Dread of Night is for death of taxes, only if you are running Vault in the main in my opinion. Abrupt decay x4 for chalice decks, and miracles. Karakas for reanimator, death and taxes, and show and tell (If you feel like it). Chain of Vapor x2 in nearly every game 2 and 3 against any deck except the mirror.
As good as dark confidant is, I cannot really justify using it in this meta. The matches where it was good were already in our favor, so knowing the ins and outs of the deck is more important than using Bob right now I would say.
Ignorant Bliss seems like old SB tech for discard heavy decks. Holding up 2 mana to Bliss instead of casting your 'trips doesn't seem like what we want to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by jtos84
which metagame? for example my Thursday had - 3x ANT (Including me), Canadian Threshold, BURG America, Team America, 4c Deathblade, UWR tempo, Mono W hatebears, Death and Taxes, Merfolk, BWg Deadguy, GWr Enchantress, Goblins, Burn, Mono R Sneak Attack, UGr Cloudpost, Eva Green (bold are top 5 performers)Quote:
Originally Posted by jtos84
If I had a Grim tutor I'd MD it, Ignorant Bliss doesn't make much sense for me same as Vault-DoN argument - I like LDV as a general setup spell not a singleton tutor (I rarely went for more than 1 spin), G splash is heavy I would not play that without 2 G lands, actually Dark Confidant could be interesting here instead of 2 bliss+tutor and trim 1 AD in favor of a storm spell...
It's all about personal preference+playstyle after all
@Azdraël - look up