Awesome to have you back, Norman! I still remember your great report and hope we will get to read another one after Legacy Champs. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm
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Awesome to have you back, Norman! I still remember your great report and hope we will get to read another one after Legacy Champs. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm
Thanks, JPA!Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA
I always have fun playing this deck so I'll be sure to take notes and follow up with you guys afterward.
By the way, you did an awesome job with this primer. Thanks for the great contribution!
dig through time is not what this deck wants to do in my opinion.
Sneak Show is designed to put a dude on the field as fast as possible (!)
In my testing games against team america i lost more than half of the games because i got raced even after i executed the combo because i played to "controlish"- seriously,this is the worst kind of loosing.
What the deck needs is additional speed and demonic tutors so gitaxian probe and intuition have their home here.
Dtt is a great tool to recover later in the game but i would rather build a deck which has such a strong early game that there won't be a lategame most of te time.
Not to distract from the purpose of this thread, but please use the current "goings-on" in the Magic world as a reminder to play legit, and hold your opponents to the same standard that you are engaging in. Protect yourself, and always call over a judge for any suspect play. It saddens me to see what's transpired over the last several days in the game that I love.
Intuition = Demonic Tutor (for 3 mana + the occasional shuffle graveyard/library)
Why would DTT be more powerful?
Maybe supplementary, but IMO Sneakshow probably shouldn't open itself up to more hatebears (Teeg) than it needs to. What makes the deck powerful aside from being compact combo + myriad counters is that it's resilient. I could have a board of
You're at 5-HP (somehow), 5 lands
I have DRS, Teeg, Thalia, Canonist, Wasteland, Karakas, Bayou
and you can still just Land, S&T->Sneak->Emmy with me being essentially ~100% chance to lose. While the above board is exaggerated (and thalia makes it a lot of lands to double-sneak), the exaggeration shows why diluting the deck too much with weird cards will probably weaken it. Teeg probably comes in for something against you just to make your line more convoluted, and at a time when Miracles is being targeted by Teegs everywhere and Cruise + DTT is being meta'd against; I feel like opening yourself up needlessly in a deck as reliable and powerful as this one isn't worth it.
Think about how confident that board state looks while being a ~100% to lose. Can't cast sneak. Can't dig + do stuff. Can't pay for things easily. Can't show in fat and have it work. He's probably sandbagging Decay for a Moon, maybe sitting on Lily and didn't want to tap out due to said Moon. Then Boom. Lose.
Hello people. My mate said I should try out this deck because it sounds like my playstyle. I've got the cards for and played 12 post and Reanimator. I told him how this deck is a combination of the two, but without a toolbox option and he said I should give it a go. So I'm gonna proxy the deck up for Monday and see how it plays. Any advice on the deck?
P.S. As for decks I play now, I mostly play Elves, some Goblins, some Merfolk, and trying U/R Delver at the moment. Would this deck be a great inclusion for my Gauntlet? I'll take apart U/R Delver if it becomes a deck I play.
There is plenty of advice in the primer!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brentane
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brentane
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA
yes, read the primer. this is one of the best primers i have seen on the site.
how have Jace the Mind sculptor and vendillion clique been in the maindeck for you guys?
Both cards were pretty good against Miracle Control and having more "threats" felt always good so far.
Other people say that jace is just a 4-Mana Brainstorm because we have no way to protect it from opposing creatures.
Just got back from Eternal Weekend. Was 4-0, then 4-2 and had to leave Rd 7 my girl friend got sick at work and I had to pick her up :frown:
I will have a tournament report tomorrow. But quickly, DTT got countered the 2 times I cast it... I kind of miss Jace... and My 2 losses were Deathblade and Jund (triple thoughtseized g1 & g2 against Jund.) I do feel like I want Leyline of Sanctity back in the SB. Lemme know your thoughts and I'll have the report for tomorrow!
Hey guys, here is the list I played at Eternal Weekend on 10/25/14. I started off 4-0, then fell to 4-2 and had to leave rd 7 as my girl friend got sick and I had to drive an hour to pick her up at work. But I did want to write a small tournament report and share my thoughts. I've been playing the deck for about 5 months and I do feel like I make misplays from here and there, but I do feel I have confidence and a tight grasp on what my game plan is each game and how to utilize each cantrip correctly.
Lands [19]
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
Creatures [8]
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells [33]
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Lotus Petal
3 Spell Pierce
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Dig Through Time
1 Misdirection
Sideboard [15]
3 Pyroclasm
2 Through the Breach
2 Echoing Truth
2 Defense Grid
2 Swan Song
2 Blood Moon
2 Grafdiggers Cage
Rd1. Opponent was a no show :eyebrow:
After waking up at 6am, and getting there by 8am... and they player meeting was scheduled for 9am, we didnt start until 11am. It did affect me a little since I was aggravated over the long wait and didnt even get to play rd1... but I'll take the win.
Rd2. vs Lands
G1, he was on the play and went Mox diamond, land pass. I had Island into Ponder... I found SnT which was exactly what I needed for my Hand of Petal, Emrakul, City of Traitors and win easily. G2 I board in the Blood Moons and he has a slow start and isnt doing much, I find a Blood Moon on my brainstorm and lock him out until I find Griselbrand.
Rd3. vs Elves
G1, he was on the play with Land DRS. I had a slow start but had a FOW for a quick Glimpse or Natural Order if he had one. The game went long and i countered his first Natural Order and went SnT into Emrakul. He then bounced his Visionary with Wirewood to find another Natural Order for Craterhoof but it wasnt enough damage and I had Emrakul to block.
G2, I had to Mull to 6, but I found a Cage for T1. That was able to slow him down as he was just attacking with his guys, I landed a Sneak Attack into Griselbrand, Drew 7 which put me to 2 life but I found an Emrakul for the win.
Rd4. vs RW Painter
G1 was quick, he had Ancient Tomb, Simian Spirit guide, into Recruiter... I had FOW for it. I went on to find Emrakul for my SnT to win.
G2, We both had to mull to 6. We both went land pass for 3 turns, on t4 he decided to go for recruiter and i let it resolve as i had Sneak Sttack into Emrakul next turn with FOW back up for his Pyroblast for the win.
Rd5. vs Jund
G1, not even close. I had to mull to 5 with an opener of Tarn, Tomb, SnT, Brainstorm, Spell Pierce. He had T1 Thoughtseize and took my Brainstorm. T3 he has double Thoughtseize which was 3 in his first 2 turns... you can figure out that it was over after that.
G2, I had to mull to 5 again but Had Tomb, Volcanic, Blood Moon, FOW, Sneak Attack. I had land pass. He started with T1 DRS, I had T2 Blood Moon. We went back and forth for a while as he just kept attacking with DRS. He drew a thoughtseize followed by a second one after that. I saw 2 ponders which I had to shuffle twice. He finally drew a swamp to use DRS to Abrupt Decay my Blood Moon, Landed a BBE into Bolt and DRS for the win.
Rd5. vs Esper Deathblade
G1, I was on the draw and had to mull to 5 once again... Opener was no land, 6 hand was Griselbrand, Spell Pierce, 4 land (which seemed unkeepable) He had t1 Thoughtseize and took my Ponder and just stumbled to his Stoneforge and TNN.
G2, I had a solid start, I had turn 1 Defense Grid and won from there.
G3, Had to mull to 5 and kept Volcanic, Delta, Pyroclasm, Ponder, Sneak Attack (pyroclasm for Meddling Mage) I was able to draw well, but he had to much pressue, Stoneforge into Liliana, into Jace and fateseal me out.
All in all it went well. But from the tournament and the last, I lost games to Jund and Esper Deathblade due to Thoughtseize. I do miss having Leyline of Sanctity and think I will add it and cut the blood moons. I also think Defense Grid needs to be in the list... and I want to cut Swan Song for Flusterstorm. I also only cast DTT twice and they were both countered. I kind of missed Jace in the Jund/Deathblade matchups. I also was disapointed I didnt face any UR Delver lists since during testing, Sneak and Show was destroying it. What do you guys think of the changes? Let me know, thanks and let's keep this deck going!
Hi people. Proxied up Sneak and Show and I love how it is just so powerful. Was playing with my friends with casual games with it, and I felt so guilt. I don't know if it was because they were proxied and not real or because the deck was powerful. But I had the biggest grin every time I saw an Emrakyl off a ponder or brainstorm. Usually I am disappointed when I see one in 12 Post, so this was a nice change. Feels so awkward dropping an Emrakyl casually on turn 2. In the primer I did not notice anything on why someone should not play this deck. Can anyone give me any reasons which might want to not build this deck?
you probably won't find any really good reasons here. not everyone likes playing combo, or has a ton of money to invest in cards that only see play in few decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brentane
the deck does have issues with consistency occasionally but otherwise it is very solid and has very few weak matchups
How good is Gitaxian Probe in this deck? Information it provides is always useful, but often I wish it was a Spell Pierce, or more business. Storm combo has a better shot with Gitaxian Probe because they can combo with Cabal Therapy for full value.
This is my list:
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
3 Intuition
3 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection
2 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Through the Breach
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Echoing Truth (this slot is really bad, only really useful against Enchantress and Chalice of the Void decks)
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
Echoing Truth is a necessary evil? Should I find place for Leyline of Sanctity, since I'm playing without DTT?
I don't run Gitaxian Probe in Sneak and Show and I agree with your sentiment. I know that the free information is fantastic, but I do always wish that the card was a Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Intuition, Dig Through Time, or even a Preordain. Storm does make better use of it not just because of Cabal Therapy, but because it adds to the Storm count and to Threshold for Cabal Ritual (although I will say that Dig Through Time does make Gitaxian Probe in Sneak and Show sound more appealing).
Echoing Truth - It might just be me, but I'd never leave without at least two copies of bounce in my 75. Sneak and Show may not be the format's boogeyman at the moment, but I hate knowing that I can't deal with a "must-answer" permanent like Ensnaring Bridge or Humility.
As for Leyline of Sanctity - IMO it's not a good sideboard card to be running right now. My other Legacy deck is Team America/BUG Delver and over on that thread there seems to be some consensus that targeted discard just isn't cutting it in the new Treasure Cruise world and Liliana of the Veil matches up horribly against Monastery Swiftspears and UR Delver. People there seem to be dropping discard in favour of cards like Stifle and that makes it seem like the Leyline of Sanctity SB slots are better used elsewhere.
I think Gitaxian Probe shines best against matchups where Show & Tell is sometimes a liability, and also against Tempo decks that play soft counters. In both cases, it's value shines well above Spell Pierce or other taxing counters. In matchups where you know you're favored, you simply board them out (Elves for instance).
I've been doing a lot of testing against the latest flavor of the month, UR Delver. Seeing as the meta is swamped with it, I decided to test a theory last night.
Rather than running Pyroclasm in my board, I ran Volcanic Fallout. The additional mana for instant speed and uncounterability seemed to be well worth it. The 2 damage to both players could be considered a boon or a bane, depending on your game position. Either way, I faced UR Delver several times and Fallout was a wrecking ball. I didn't need to worry about their Daze, Force or boarded Flusterstorms. It also allowed me to sit back while my Elves opponent was comboing off, and I swept his board when he went for his Behemoth. The only time I regretted it was when I brought it in against UWR Delver, and had to give them a target for their Wastelands after it was cast.
That being said, does anyone else think that this could be worth looking into more?
Even thought Fallout has positive points for it against counter-magic, I feel that we're playing the "deal 2 damage to everything" effect because it's a convenient mana cost of 2 mana. This is particularly important against D&T matches, where Thalia would make it cost :2::r:.
I'm less concerned with Pyroclasm against UR Delver, as we should just be jamming Defense Grid, checking their hand with Gitaxian Probe, and resolving S&T as soon as possible under the Grid. Pyroclasm may be too slow for this matchup post-board. Therein lies the danger of over-boarding against a mostly even matchup.
True, but that is another matchup where the instant speed could shine as well. I haven't tested that one yet. Perhaps I'll seek one out tonight and see how it plays out. As for Defense Grid, I'm not a fan of it at all in the S&S sideboard. I think that this was discussed many pages back as a sideboard card that has lost it's efficacy over recent time.
I love Defense Grid, it's the best card in the Tempo matchup in my opinion.
I would always board Pyroclasm against UR Delver, slowing them down is pretty valuable. I found the games against them to be a race pretty often, since they don't have as much disruption as the other Delver decks.
Hence my boarding plan against them:
-3 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Force of Will
-2 Dig Through Time
+3 Pyroclasm
+2 Defense Grid
+2 Echoing Truth
This is a bit of an understatement, but I feel like it is a good summary why I love Probes in this deck. Knowing that you have a few turns to assemble a more resilient combo is worth just as much as finding out that the coast is clear right now. While you might not be able to eke out extra value on a Therapy, having complete information about a given turn is invaluable.If you are encountering situations where you wish the Probe was something else, odds are you could (and should) have cycled the Probe already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I think that in this case, boarding in Echoing Truth is the over-boarding. I would also keep the Forces in, as countering an early Delver is a good way to buy a ton of time. DTT is rubbish for this matchup tho, so that's an easy board out.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA
Echoing Truth can also buy a ton of time as well as getting rid of random permanent hate like Needle (which I encountered online a lot).Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I don't feel 4 FoWs are necessary when we have Defense Grid post-board. 3 Pyroclasm are enough to get rid of Delvers, no need to FoW them.
Truth is definitely the right call in the Delver matchup. But as for Defense Grid, I really just prefer Boseiju in that slot, especially since Defense Grid has no effect on Counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA
JPA - Thoughts on Fallout?
I just prefer Defense Grid in a Tempo-heavy metagame. Boseiju is obviously awesome against Miracles and in the mirror, where Defense Grid is useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unassigned
@Fallout: I don't really like it. Boseiju+Pyroclasm does the same job against UR Delver and Pyroclasm's upside (:1: less) outweighs the instant-speed and uncounterability of Fallout in my opinion.
It's awesome against Merfolk, though - a super annoying matchup!
With the booming popularity of Delver, I'm not sure that I want to rely on a 2 card combo that still doesn't do 2 damage to my opponent (still 2 to me due to Boseiju) and no longer instant speed to wipe a board. I'm still in the very early stages of testing this, and with work, Halloween and my anniversary with my wife coming up on Sunday, I haven't had time to test this much at all since the initial night. I think I'll run it during my local Tuesday night Legacy and go from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA
That horrible noise you hear from the next room is the sound of all the Death & Taxes players cackling manically.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaximumC
The fact they need to cast this (with mana) is a point against it from the D&T perspective. That means it can be countered.
I'm mistaken. It might still be bad for Sneak & Show. They can Vial in Containment Priest, even though it stops future Vial cheats.
The sudden silence you hear from the other room is the sound of all the Death & Taxes players realizing yet again that they still don't play blue.
they can cavern it, human is a good tribe for them, they even get thalia, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Are you sure? Doesn't the fact that it's a static effect mean that it exiles itself upon entering the battlefield?Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Yeah, but most lists afaik only run a singleton Cavern. In a list with no draw whatsoever, that sounds like an out, not a strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
-ABC
It doesn't counter it, it just RFG's it instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
This card should only show up in DnT. Plus we have Pyroclasm for it already for that matchup for EOT Echoing Truth... we shouldnt be to worried.
Yes, check out Comp Rules 614.12:Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Quote:
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent's characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.
Example: Voice of All says "As Voice of All enters the battlefield, choose a color" and "Voice of All has protection from the chosen color." An effect creates a token that's a copy of Voice of All. As that token is put onto the battlefield, its controller chooses a color for it.
Example: Yixlid Jailer says "Cards in graveyards lose all abilities." Scarwood Treefolk says "Scarwood Treefolk enters the battlefield tapped." A Scarwood Treefolk that's put onto the battlefield from a graveyard enters the battlefield tapped.
Example: Orb of Dreams is an artifact that says "Permanents enter the battlefield tapped." It won't affect itself, so Orb of Dreams enters the battlefield untapped.
614.12a. If a replacement effect that modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield requires a choice, that choice is made before the permanent enters the battlefield.
I was really into getting this deck, but now I am scared of Containment Priest. It's just so good for D&T. Want to kill the Elves matchup? CP. Want to kill Reanimator? CP. Want to kill Sneak & Show? CP.
This could be depressing if this card destorys 3 decks... but for Sneak and Show we do have SnT and Pyroclasm out of the board. So I think we should be fine. Reanimator and Elves have an issue.
One more reason why I'm liking the instant speed of Volcanic Fallout more and more over Pyroclasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
I was playing around with some weirder lists this weekend in mtgo dailies:
Tried playing 2 Cruises and 2 Digs instead of Spell Pierce with some success. I just wanted to try to find something that continues to be good on it's own later in a game. Still, it not much to go on as I had a few bad keeps and an epic punt from being a bit rusty in Legacy since the scene recently died at my LGS. There seems to be a tiny advantage where I have to sac or discard Emrakul after I have already delved--get rid of the lands, etc. Plus, DTT and the Cruises also ate up counters to open the doors a couple times.
I'm still playing 2 Fire/Ice instead of two Jace. One main deck TTB for 9th enabler is the other one.
On that white card, I was mad at first, but it really is just another bad card in a bad match-up. Not sure if it is any worse than Clique taking an enabler.
Just working on tweaking the SB for Jersey; my first Legacy GP. I am down to
1) Deciding on trying 2 Daze main like the two recent top 20 finishes at SCG Opens did. Fire/Ice would probably be what I take out.
2) Switching out 2 Swan Songs for Defense Grids on SB
Anyone else try anything above recently?
I wouldn't replace one with the other, since they are boarded in completely different matchups (Song against Combo/Miracles, Defense Grid against Tempo).Quote:
Originally Posted by Polishguy00