Chinese fakes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

Illegal and Immoral by whose standard? Your parent's standard? Law by in your town?

People who care about arbitrary values of a piece of paper or commodity are called traders, collectors. We don't describe these people as Players. Players like to design decks, play Magic cards in competition, argue about deck match-ups in theory. Players don't like to spend time on card prices. You need cards for a deck, you acquire them. It's people like you, crying foul and all in pretense, when all you care about is making profit off trading commodity in the secondary market. What do you know about playing this game?

---

Counterfeiting is illegal everywhere that matters. It's illegal in China as well, occasionally there are raids to break up counterfeiting rings. It's illegal by every standard that could possibly matter for the sake of this discussion, yes including the law in your town. By knowingly ordering fake cards you would be breaking US laws (or wherever you live).

Pretty much everyone would agree that counterfeiting is wrong. I mean outside of the people here trying to justify it I don't think I've ever heard someone make a pro-counterfeit argument.

What are you even doing? I mean you are going so far around your ass with this logic I don't even see where you are coming from. No one here is really making money off MTG we don't want this to get out of hand because it will hurt the people who host events and then there will be less events. I'm sorry you don't like paying for cards, I don't like paying for anything, but people don't hold events and host FNMs out of the goodness of their hearts. Read this article it will lay out the general reasons people disagree with counterfeiting. http://www.starcitygames.com/article...eit-Cards.html

More info

from the chinese guy who is sending me the free samples. They should arrive this week, will post a short review when I get my hands on them.

I talked to the man today and tried to get some more information from him. This is what I've got. Wanna see my last post with information regarding the alleged police raid and lost in spam? Click here.

New info:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2rfrpys.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

What are you even doing? I mean you are going so far around your ass with this logic I don't even see where you are coming from. No one here is really making money off MTG we don't want this to get out of hand because it will hurt the people who host events and then there will be less events. I'm sorry you don't like paying for cards, I don't like paying for anything, but people don't hold events and host FNMs out of the goodness of their hearts. Read this article it will lay out the general reasons people disagree with counterfeiting. http://www.starcitygames.com/article...eit-Cards.html

---

You are now just flat out Lying. If no one here is making money off MTG, then there is no business or secondary market, and definitely no motivation to counterfeit Magic cards. There is something called Supply and Demand, there's also something called Economics. Your argument of "hurting" the people simply ignore the common sense of Economics.

I would argue that indistinguishable counterfeit Magic cards simply increase the supply of Magic cards, actually Benefit people who previously would not be able to play Legacy due to entry to barrier and inaccessible cards. Therefore, it's good for the players, bad for traders and collectors.

Your argument has no merit for hosting less events. I predict there would be More events, because there are More Legacy players, using legitimate or illegitimate cards. People counterfeit currency or Magic cards ALL THE TIME. That's not my concern, my concern is to get more people to play Legacy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

Illegal and Immoral by whose standard? Your parent's standard? Law by in your town?

People who care about arbitrary values of a piece of paper or commodity are called traders, collectors. We don't describe these people as Players. Players like to design decks, play Magic cards in competition, argue about deck match-ups in theory. Players don't like to spend time on card prices. You need cards for a deck, you acquire them. It's people like you, crying foul and all in pretense, when all you care about is making profit off trading commodity in the secondary market. What do you know about playing this game?

---

umm... illegal by international and United states Trademark and intellectual property law your just trolling

Here is a secret. Most players are also collectors. I don't have a lot of money but instead of all hailing our new Chinese overlords I participate in magic finance, not to get rich just to make Magic pay for Magic. I actually find the selling part to be tedious but if you buy/sell/trade smart you can offset some or all of the cost

I really want to stand up on the table during a game and take a giant dump Chaos Orb style all over your cards just to see how much you really care about value. Or how bout this, I have a bunch of counterfeit money that I collected working graveyard shift in a ghetto ass gas station most of last year. If you don't care about the value of little pieces of paper trade me some real money for them bro. You don't know me so don't try to paint me out to be something I'm not just so you can continue to justify illegal activity. Its called a strawman argument and it ain't gonna fly brother.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

You are now just flat out Lying. If no one here is making money off MTG, then there is no business or secondary market, and definitely no motivation to counterfeit Magic cards. There is something called Supply and Demand, there's also something called Economics. Your argument of "hurting" the people simply ignore the common sense of Economics.

I would argue that indistinguishable counterfeit Magic cards simply increase the supply of Magic cards, actually Benefit people who previously would not be able to play Legacy due to entry to barrier and inaccessible cards. Therefore, it's good for the players, bad for traders and collectors.

Your argument has no merit for hosting less events. I predict there would be More events, because there are More Legacy players, using legitimate or illegitimate cards. People counterfeit currency or Magic cards ALL THE TIME. That's not my concern, my concern is to get more people to play Legacy.

---

Seriously guys, I'm not even going to respond to this one, just read my previous posts and know if you support counterfeits this guy is on your side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

You are now just flat out Lying. If no one here is making money off MTG, then there is no business or secondary market, and definitely no motivation to counterfeit Magic cards. There is something called Supply and Demand, there's also something called Economics. Your argument of "hurting" the people simply ignore the common sense of Economics.

I would argue that indistinguishable counterfeit Magic cards simply increase the supply of Magic cards, actually Benefit people who previously would not be able to play Legacy due to entry to barrier and inaccessible cards. Therefore, it's good for the players, bad for traders and collectors.

Your argument has no merit for hosting less events. I predict there would be More events, because there are More Legacy players, using legitimate or illegitimate cards. People counterfeit currency or Magic cards ALL THE TIME. That's not my concern, my concern is to get more people to play Legacy.

---

People murder rape and steal ALL THE TIME does not make it right. but I guess that's not your concern, your concern is to get cheap goods and to hell with anything that stands in your way.

First True-Name Nemesis, now this!

What's the world come to?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Pretty much everyone would agree that counterfeiting is wrong. I mean outside of the people here trying to justify it I don't think I've ever heard someone make a pro-counterfeit argument.

---

Here or in general?

Because we have to stop and ask ourselves why counterfeiting commercial items is illegal. Note my usage of commercial items; I'm not talking about stuff made by the government like money (that's a different matter), I'm talking about stuff like counterfeiting Magic cards.

The reason it's against the law to counterfeit Magic cards is copyright laws. Wizards of the Coast owns the copyright on the cards, so it's copyright infringement to make a copy of them. Now, there are a cases where copyright infringement is legal thanks to "fair use" (for example, technically just posting a picture of a card is copyright infringement, but Wizards of the Coast sure as heck doesn't care and even if they did they'd get laughed out of court, so it's not illegal copyright infringement), but that's another matter entirely. Counterfeiting does not fall under fair use.

The question then becomes, why does copyright exist and does that reason hold place here? The reason copyright exists is presumably that if someone makes something, they should be able to be the one to make money off of it. If you wrote a book that's popular, you should be the one making money from it, rather than someone else just grabbing it and selling their own copies of it. It lets you put your work out to the public while being secure that someone else can't legally take it without your permission.

Here's where things get sticky. The idea is to make it so that the copyright holder, who actually made the thing, is the one allowed to profit off of it. But in this case, Wizards of the Coast is actively refusing to do so with the Reserved List. Might as well continue with my book publisher: It's like after making a book with a limited run, a lot of people want to buy more copies, but the publisher refuses to do so (or the author somehow refuses to let the publisher do so). In this case, the copyright is not really serving the purpose it was intended for, namely letting the copyright holder to be the one who gets to profit from it. After all, they're not making any profit on it because they refuse to make more copies. This to a certain extent also applies to non-Reserved List cards that they do not reprint.

It's kind of like the situation you might find yourself in if you really want to watch a TV show that's off the air, but the copyright holder has not released it on DVD or put it on any streaming service, or games that are now out of print. Certainly it's copyright infringement to download a copy online, and it's illegal... but at the same time, they're not making any money off of it and are refusing to actually use their copyright. When one considers the reason for copyright in the first place, is making copies (e.g. putting episodes online for download) really against the spirit of the law?

In fact, what is striking about the particular case of Magic is that despite their refusal to sell more copies of certain cards, Wizards of the Coast still requires you to obtain them for sanctioned tournaments.

When we consider the reason why copyright is supposed to exist in the first place, it seems quite arguable that due to Wizards of the Coast's actions, copyright is not actually protecting what it is supposed to protect and thus perhaps violating it in that case should not be illegal. The idea of a "use it or lose it" clause for copyright is interesting, though it would be difficult to implement and would almost certainly never actually be passed as law.

Maro says:

creatingpseudonyms asked: Your thoughts on the counterfeit ring in China? Give us some assurance to calm us down : )

We are very much aware of the issue and are working towards a swift resolution to it. We have a lot of tools at our disposal to help resolve this problem and I can assure you those resources are being used.
January 13, 2014
30 notes



Hear that everyone WotC has top men working on it right now!
Who?
Top men!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

TL;DR

---

I scanned that and decided I'm not gonna read a whole bunch of copyright theory you crafted out of your ass. I'm glad you think copyright laws should be rewritten based on your primetime TV courtroom drama understanding of the law, but you waxing philosophic on what copyright means to you personally actually doesn't mean anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

I would argue that indistinguishable counterfeit Magic cards simply increase the supply of Magic cards, actually Benefit people who previously would not be able to play Legacy due to entry to barrier and inaccessible cards.

---

...an it hurts the people who already got the cards. You know - me, you, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I do not think it is "Nothing to worry about" so much as it is "This time, the Status Quo is intact".

Also thickness would be hard to notice if you both Double Sleeve your card and play cards that the opponent is unlikely to need to touch. I see no reason you need to pick up my Goyf. I play it, you know what it does, lets beat face.

@ ESG, Not sure what Rape has to do with this at all.

---

I have opponents shuffle my decks constantly when in a tournament. I'm not sure about you guys but during competitive play this is pretty common/expected.

Yes, but one card in 60 is hard to pick out. Like, borderline impossible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

I scanned that and decided I'm not gonna read a whole bunch of copyright theory you crafted out of your ass.

---

Then why bother characterizing it if you didn't even read the thing?

Quote:

---

I'm glad you think copyright laws should be rewritten

---

I'm glad you didn't actually read my post and thus came to that faulty conclusion.

Quote:

---

based on your primetime TV courtroom drama understanding of the law,

---

In what way do I have "primetime TV courtroom drama understanding of the law"? You can't just claim something like that without at least giving a real explanation. I've read a decent amount about copyright law, so if my understanding is somehow faulty, I would actually like to be informed of how. Is your issue that I didn't bring up the related non-copyright issues, e.g. trademarks?

Quote:

---

but you waxing philosophic on what copyright means to you personally actually doesn't mean anything.

---

And neither does your post because you just admitted you didn't read it. Maybe if you actually read it rather than "scanned" it you wouldn't be arguing against a strawman.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barook

What about Bazaar of Moxen? I don't think it's impossible to do more and regular events as long as

a) people who run the event plan accordingly in advance and
b) have good price support to draw enough people.

While it isn't easy and requires quite a bit of resources, I don't think it's undoable.

---

Bazar of Moxen is actually organized by one of the largest French retailers, Magic Bazar. It's definitely not a players-run event.

@Lord Seth

Just because Wizards has chosen to uphold the reserve list doesn't mean that they are not using their copyright. Not really sure what your point is but your post was long winded and much ado about nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Yes, but one card in 60 is hard to pick out. Like, borderline impossible.

---

I can't speak for all events, but the judges at SCG possibly during midround deck check and 100% for sure during pre-top8 inspection would notice if any of your cards were different. I've had them notice a very small defect in 4 of my 60 sleeves during like round 5 of an event that I hadn't noticed. I've also watched them several times perform the pre-top8 deck check. Let's just say it's very thorough. If you plan on taking fake cards to an SCG good luck.

If this fake cards crisis causes WotC to cut costs, downsize, and fire that useless waste of carbon Mark Rosewater, this will have been worth all the other fallout it caused.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barook

So Maro acknowledged the issue today, even while just giving a run-of-the-mill answer:

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...-give-us#notes

About the SCG article: What exactly does this article try to accomplish? Fear mongering?

Hilarious side note: If you don't want people to buy fakes, then DON'T POST PICTURES WITH THE UNCENSORED LINK IN THE ARTICLE!

It's like a guide for the masses to buy fakes. Good fucking job, dude! :rolleyes:

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JBlaze

@Lord Seth

Just because Wizards has chosen to uphold the reserve list doesn't mean that they are not using their copyright.

---

It kind of does. After all, if you're not making those cards, then you're not actually using their copyrights on those cards. Obviously they're still using their copyrights they have on the game in general and any new cards or reprints, but on those they aren't, unless you count their usage online (e.g. Magic Online, Gatherer images, etc.)

Quote:

---

Not really sure what your point is but your post was long winded and much ado about nothing.

---

Enh, this is more fair. I was mostly just trying to ponder a bit about a possible argument, and I guess I kinda lost whatever point I had by the end.

I am very much against counterfeits. If I need a proxy I have a color laser printer, I own most of the staples but I would love a large enough print run of legit catds to drop the price back to 05-06 levels even most duals were right in the sweet spot around 25 and only a few nitch cards were $100 range

Sent from 15 min in the future via Tapatalk Timewarp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twndomn

You are now just flat out Lying. If no one here is making money off MTG, then there is no business or secondary market, and definitely no motivation to counterfeit Magic cards. There is something called Supply and Demand, there's also something called Economics. Your argument of "hurting" the people simply ignore the common sense of Economics.

I would argue that indistinguishable counterfeit Magic cards simply increase the supply of Magic cards, actually Benefit people who previously would not be able to play Legacy due to entry to barrier and inaccessible cards. Therefore, it's good for the players, bad for traders and collectors.

Your argument has no merit for hosting less events. I predict there would be More events, because there are More Legacy players, using legitimate or illegitimate cards. People counterfeit currency or Magic cards ALL THE TIME. That's not my concern, my concern is to get more people to play Legacy.

---

I want to play Golf, but cannot afford it. I think I think the only way is to start counterfeit money. But this could cost me a lot resource and knowledge so it's just better to become criminal and go to the local bank post...

This is the only way I can get in to a Golf club, so I can enjoy the game, it's just a game after all. And I want more peoples to start plating Golf.

Btw, I want to have Rolls-Royce Corniche so I can go to the Golf club without looking stupid with my small and cheap car. It's just a car after all, everyone should have Rolls-Royce!

You can go to North Korea or China and try to build the Communism there! One way ticket!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prateta

More info

from the chinese guy who is sending me the free samples. They should arrive this week, will post a short review when I get my hands on them.

I talked to the man today and tried to get some more information from him. This is what I've got. Wanna see my last post with information regarding the alleged police raid and lost in spam? Click here.

New info:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2rfrpys.jpg

---

Did you guys just ignore him AGAIN? I'll requote him cause this is the kind of information this thread should be really about - not what user A thinks about Topic B and how more aswesome user B is than user C.

Greetings

This thread turns TheSource into the 4 Chan of M:TG :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

This thread turns TheSource into the 4 Chan of M:TG :/

---

The corresponding threads on Salvation and Reddit are even worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lordofthepit

The corresponding threads on Salvation and Reddit are even worse.

---

I've been checking in this thread every now and then and this is the first time I've seen it actually discussing fake cards instead of hoarding or copyright theory or some such horse shit.


All I can say is, I'm afraid of a market crash, and I've never been afraid of the Magic bubble bursting before. Fortunately, I mostly have (sweet) foreign copies of expensive cards, so presumably there's not very much incentive to counterfeit them. Or at least I keep telling myself that...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by phazonmutant

All I can say is, I'm afraid of a market crash, and I've never been afraid of the Magic bubble bursting before. Fortunately, I mostly have (sweet) foreign copies of expensive cards, so presumably there's not very much incentive to counterfeit them. Or at least I keep telling myself that...

---

I agree that this is troubling. More so for the perception of a market crash than the likelihood that the market will actually be noticeably flooded. Even several thousand more duals will not likely cause noticeable inflation; however, just the idea alone that people other than WotC have the power to do so may cause massive instability in the market.

I actually think that, rather than helping, posting and telling everyone how to spot fakes is likely to do nothing more than tell the counterfeiters how to correct their mistakes. All the white knights out there that are buying fakes for the purpose of telling everyone how to identify them will probably only result in better fakes. If you have bought counterfeit cards, whatever your motives, I'd urge you not to reveal too publicly how to identify them. For everyone else, just make sure that you are getting your cards from a credible source until WotC figures out how to fix this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Einherjer

Did you guys just ignore him AGAIN? I'll requote him cause this is the kind of information this thread should be really about - not what user A thinks about Topic B and how more aswesome user B is than user C.

Greetings

---

Lets just hope they won't ever be able to copy/reproduce the foil cards process.

This is getting serious!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Einherjer

Did you guys just ignore him AGAIN? I'll requote him cause this is the kind of information this thread should be really about - not what user A thinks about Topic B and how more aswesome user B is than user C.

---

Not too suprising. I'm following the 4chan threads to get an indication of what's actually going on when you have a bunch of people who don't give a shit. The requests for further money staples are already there, including all fetches/duals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by warai

Lets just hope they won't ever be able to copy/reproduce the foil cards process.

This is getting serious!

---

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-Foil-Jace...item2c7a97a6cb

allready done

I don't think it's possible to stop the counterfeiters. The best Chinese fake Ids are incredibly good, they pass UV tests and everything. Clearly these counterfeiters aren't the best, but some one out there will eventually be able to make exact replicas. A little hologram isn't going to stop anything. Getting the best fake id shop closed down required years of work and cooperation from diplomats and ambassadors. There's no way those officials will give a fuck about fake Magic cards. As soon as the best id shop was closed down, there was a new one to take it's place. I think right now eBay needs to do the responsible thing and stop these fakes from being sold. I don't know what the long term solution will be. We might be fucked. I don't see how anybody can possibly be pro counterfeits. Even the unsanctioned vintage tournaments I've participated in were held in card shops that have a lot to lose if these counterfeits don't get stopped.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by phazonmutant

I've been checking in this thread every now and then and this is the first time I've seen it actually discussing fake cards instead of hoarding or copyright theory or some such horse shit.


All I can say is, I'm afraid of a market crash, and I've never been afraid of the Magic bubble bursting before. Fortunately, I mostly have (sweet) foreign copies of expensive cards, so presumably there's not very much incentive to counterfeit them. Or at least I keep telling myself that...

---

I hear ya.

Very worried that if the fakes are of high enough quality that the game could crash. One thing I really don`t understand are people willing to buy these proxies to fill out their cubes or for testing etc. Not only are you helping the game possibly become extinct but can't you just either use a sharpie or use your own printer? Your own printer obviously isn't carbon copy but it suits the purpose.

I would like cards to be cheaper like anyone else, but not at the possible consquence of Magic the Gathering no longer existing. Or only becoming online.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clavio

I don't think it's possible to stop the counterfeiters. The best Chinese fake Ids are incredibly good, they pass UV tests and everything. Clearly these counterfeiters aren't the best, but some one out there will eventually be able to make exact replicas. A little hologram isn't going to stop anything. Getting the best fake id shop closed down required years of work and cooperation from diplomats and ambassadors. There's no way those officials will give a fuck about fake Magic cards. As soon as the best id shop was closed down, there was a new one to take it's place. I think right now eBay needs to do the responsible thing and stop these fakes from being sold. I don't know what the long term solution will be. We might be fucked. I don't see how anybody can possibly be pro counterfeits. Even the unsanctioned vintage tournaments I've participated in were held in card shops that have a lot to lose if these counterfeits don't get stopped.

---

Ebay doesn't care if sellers are selling fakes. Sellers are responsible for selling legal goods. If you have a problem with a seller contact the seller. And in an extreme case, contact the authorities. As long as eBay is taking money off the top of transactions, they could care less if its legal or counterfeit goods. EBay essentially washes their hands of legal obligations, unless their are obligated to take a side from a legal perspective. For $500-5 MTG listings, I think they have much bigger fish to fry.

It would take WotC, a huge response from the eBay community, or US authorities to shut down counterfeit MTG listings on eBay. I don't see it happening in the short term.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lordofthepit

The corresponding threads on Salvation and Reddit are even worse.

---

Actually Reddit turned a corner after that SCG article. Now comments that are pro-counterfeit are quickly downvoted. Salvation is banning or suspending people who ask for information on ordering the cards or admit to ordering the cards. This thread is currently the low water mark on the internet for discussing these fakes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Actually Reddit turned a corner after that SCG article. Now comments that are pro-counterfeit are quickly downvoted. Salvation is banning or suspending people who ask for information on ordering the cards or admit to ordering the cards. This thread is currently the low water mark on the internet for discussing these fakes.

---

I'm sure if we had downvotes on the source you would see a similar pattern.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Counterfeiting is illegal everywhere that matters. It's illegal in China as well, occasionally there are raids to break up counterfeiting rings. It's illegal by every standard that could possibly matter for the sake of this discussion, yes including the law in your town. By knowingly ordering fake cards you would be breaking US laws (or wherever you live).

Pretty much everyone would agree that counterfeiting is wrong. I mean outside of the people here trying to justify it I don't think I've ever heard someone make a pro-counterfeit argument.

---

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that, given an acceptable level of quality in the counterfeit, that it mostly benefits the consumer.

It's like the pharmaceutical industry. There are name brand medicines that Big Pharma companies charge exorbitant amounts for. Then there are small pill manufacturers that simply reproduce their process at lower cost and sell these knock-off pills for far less money. Most of these "counterfeit" pills are of similar quality and save consumers millions of dollars on a product that is inordinately priced by the company that originally produced it.

Most counterfeit laws are in place only to protect the vast profits of the originator of a product. Do you give props to the originator for coming up with the idea? Sure, but at a certain point, demand will need to be placated by facsimiles unless the originator lowers his prices and/or increases the supply.

Quote:

---

What are you even doing? I mean you are going so far around your ass with this logic I don't even see where you are coming from. No one here is really making money off MTG we don't want this to get out of hand because it will hurt the people who host events and then there will be less events. I'm sorry you don't like paying for cards, I don't like paying for anything, but people don't hold events and host FNMs out of the goodness of their hearts. Read this article it will lay out the general reasons people disagree with counterfeiting. http://www.starcitygames.com/article...eit-Cards.html

---

The guy who wrote that article is simply a Magic speculator who makes all of or part of his living buying and selling Magic cards. I.e. not someone playing the game for the enjoyment of the game.

Again, the only way that players themselves should be concerned about counterfeiting is with regard to its ability to affect the bottom line of Wizards, the producer of the cards, and the ability to affect the bottom line of tournament organizers like Starcitygames.

And the link between event organization and increased supply of fake cards isn't completely proven either. Will Wizards withdraw funding from Legacy events if their product is widely copied? Maybe. They haven't exactly been ambassadors of the format to being with. What does Legacy get now, a Grand Prix a year?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Voncaster

Ebay doesn't care if sellers are selling fakes. Sellers are responsible for selling legal goods. If you have a problem with a seller contact the seller. And in an extreme case, contact the authorities. As long as eBay is taking money off the top of transactions, they could care less if its legal or counterfeit goods. EBay essentially washes their hands of legal obligations, unless their are obligated to take a side from a legal perspective. For $500-5 MTG listings, I think they have much bigger fish to fry.

It would take WotC, a huge response from the eBay community, or US authorities to shut down counterfeit MTG listings on eBay. I don't see it happening in the short term.

---

EBay has copyright holders and general users police the listings. Copyright holders have special privileges and can end listings with the click of a button. They also have some automatic features which prevent certain keywords in titles. WotC/Hasbro can grab the reigns and KO the listings as they see fit. Or one can go on a crusade and report the listings as counterfeit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Honorik

I want to play Golf, but cannot afford it. I think I think the only way is to start counterfeit money. But this could cost me a lot resource and knowledge so it's just better to become criminal and go to the local bank post...

This is the only way I can get in to a Golf club, so I can enjoy the game, it's just a game after all. And I want more peoples to start plating Golf.

Btw, I want to have Rolls-Royce Corniche so I can go to the Golf club without looking stupid with my small and cheap car. It's just a car after all, everyone should have Rolls-Royce!

You can go to North Korea or China and try to build the Communism there! One way ticket!

---

You are a classic example of slippery slope, do you live your life hysterically by stretching every single conversation?

I have typed this sentences like 3x already: People around the world counterfeit Currency and Magic card ALL THE TIME and it's Not on the news. For you to harp about your morale superiority on a Magic forum doesn't change a thing. You can do a kickstarter or submit articles to TIMES or whatever, people still do it anyway. That's called economics.

Therefore, the attention is to analyze the impact of Legacy tournament events and attendance. My personal belief is that the number of tournaments will remain about the same, but the attendance will go up, due to influx of supply.

Personally, I think this is one of the most interesting and compelling topics related to MtG in the last ten years, and even it's entire history.

Do I support counterfeit cards? Absolutely not. Certainly appropriate authorities must do what they can to extinguish the fire ASAP. But that said, this is a forum, and it should promote free discussion. This is in important topic to the game and the community. As such I feel strongly that calling this thread a low water mark is completely inappropriate.

I personally feel that the SCG article was not pro-counterfeit and, to me, felt like propaganda from Wizards.

I do think that Wizards has some accountability for their economic model. They sell cardboard. They do wonderful things with it, but they do make alot of money. Magic is not a game like others. Put simply, you must have thousands of dollars invested in the game to be able to truly compete in any given format and must be ready to continually invest those kinds of sums.

Magic is a business. It exists to make money. And it has been plain to me that Magic has gotten greedy. They are not interested in making a great game, but in profit margins. I quit the game some time ago for these reasons. I still find Magic interesting, but I no longer am willing to pay for their product.

I think that counterfeit cards will be a continuing problem for Magic. Obviously, it will need to be addressed aggressively and quickly. And I really think Wizards will need to be transparent about this issue, rather than pretending it doesn't exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MGB

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that, given an acceptable level of quality in the counterfeit, that it mostly benefits the consumer.

It's like the pharmaceutical industry. There are name brand medicines that Big Pharma companies charge exorbitant amounts for. Then there are small pill manufacturers that simply reproduce their process at lower cost and sell these knock-off pills for far less money. Most of these "counterfeit" pills are of similar quality and save consumers millions of dollars on a product that is inordinately priced by the company that originally produced it.

Most counterfeit laws are in place only to protect the vast profits of the originator of a product. Do you give props to the originator for coming up with the idea? Sure, but at a certain point, demand will need to be placated by facsimiles unless the originator lowers his prices and/or increases the supply.

The guy who wrote that article is simply a Magic speculator who makes all of or part of his living buying and selling Magic cards. I.e. not someone playing the game for the enjoyment of the game.

Again, the only way that players themselves should be concerned about counterfeiting is with regard to its ability to affect the bottom line of Wizards, the producer of the cards, and the ability to affect the bottom line of tournament organizers like Starcitygames.

And the link between event organization and increased supply of fake cards isn't completely proven either. Will Wizards withdraw funding from Legacy events if their product is widely copied? Maybe. They haven't exactly been ambassadors of the format to being with. What does Legacy get now, a Grand Prix a year?

---

I hope you can see the difference between medicines and a trading card game.

Somebody before me already addressed this: you can play with proxies in not sanctioned events right now if you want!

If you believe that a proxy-based tournament scene would prosper in the hands of players why don't you start a "proxy league"? I'll tell you why: because you want to play sanctioned events. Guess what, organizers are the hands of WotC when they organize sanctioned tournaments, it is their rules, their game, their tournament.

If you want to play under your rules you are free to do it, but don't ask WotC to sanction an event outside of their rules.

Please, before you address me as a "speculator/hoarder", I'm not. I own a playset of all the cards I use to play Legacy at LGSs around my area and the occasional big event. For the record, I too believe that the RL is a total idiocy and should be abolished.

There is a lot of hypocrisy in the arguments that support the production and distribution of counterfeited cards and it is a shame that those being hypocritical can't see the damage that will be done to the game if fake Magic cards start to be prevalent.

Comparing these fakes to a legitimate product for use in sanctioned events is just ridiculous.

This isn't comparable to using a generic pharmaceutical or pirating music. This is counterfeiting casino chips from Bellagio and heading down to the Texas Hold 'Em table. After all, it's just a game, why should you be excluded?