[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

Interestingly enough, i see people board out force all the time against canadian, i think it is strictly wrong. The matchup is all about maneuvring yourself into a board state where you can resolve tarmogoyf/tombstalker/liliana. From then on it is usually smooth sailing. The games you loose are the ones where they keep you from playing magic, and force helps greatly here.

I win alot of games where the key play is forcing a daze or force on my goyf to stabilize. Sometimes you also need to protect deathrite shaman, though that is a bit desperate.

I usually board out anything that costs 2 or more mana that don't interact with the board. I.e. sylvan and hymn to board in any cheap removal i have lying around in the sideboard.

I would like to discuss SB strategies in the MUD match up.
I play 2 stalkers/2 lillys/4 Hymns with this SB:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Sylvan Library
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sugrical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

Here is the link to my video from SCG INDY:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDAv-c-_wVs

I boarded in 3 pierce/1 needle/1 null rod for 4 Daze/ 1 Hymn. I also considering bringing in the cage (that is the card that i went back to take out as i figured he could just kill me w/o a creature). Shrout suggests leaving in the Dazes and taking out the Hymns, I'm not sure if this is correct as in g1 i actually had the Daze in my hand when he powered out the forgemaster, and a DRS into waste/hymn on t2 could really set him back.My concern with Daze was just that it was turned off so quickly by Sol lands, etc. An early chalice is bad, but i did leave the decays in to deal with that and trinishpere. Dismember was also a consideration, but again i decided against it which i likely incorrect. I haven't ever played this particular m/u (watch me read every card he plays). I think firing off the waste on t1 of 1 may have been a mistake, but I had played 12 post earlier in the event so i figured he was on that and not MUD. g2 i fired off the end step brainstorm b/c i needed a land to cast the null rod in my hand (i held FOW blue card the whole game to protect it). The commentators were confused b/c i misssed my 2nd land drop (no cheating here). g3 i opened on 6 lands pierce, mulled into no lands, and then had to keep a pretty weak 5. Never saw a 2nd land : ( I'll be running this deck back at the Invi next weekend, so any advice could be appreciated especially with the fringe archetypes. I played against 12 post, loam pox, MUD, and G/w enchantress.

Dismember is great against MUD since it gets around their Chalice + kills almost everything in their deck.

I think Grafdigger's is ok if they're on the Forgemaster build, but I'm not really a fan of it.

I actually like Hymn a lot against the Stompy style decks. Their decks are inherently very inconsistent and our Hymns help to add to that inconsistency. In general, my feeling on matchups against those types of decks is that they have the potential for super explosive openers, but if we can survive that, the better consistency of our deck will take over the game. Sure, sometimes they have the nuts and you get blown out, but I'd say we're advantaged in a 3 game match (especially us BUG decks who get to play Abrupt Decay).

I'm actually torn on Liliana as well. I don't think I actually like her very much since they dump their hand so quickly and have a good number of guys to protect their important ones. Even worse is if they get something like a Wurmcoil Engine on the board...

I considered taking out the lilly as well, but it was the only way to kill a blightsteel. that being said, i did die to blightsteel with lilly in hand because i wasn't able to get to 3 land.

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Originally Posted by grizzlegrizzle

I would like to discuss SB strategies in the MUD match up.
I play 2 stalkers/2 lillys/4 Hymns with this SB:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Sylvan Library
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sugrical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

Here is the link to my video from SCG INDY:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDAv-c-_wVs

I boarded in 3 pierce/1 needle/1 null rod for 4 Daze/ 1 Hymn. I also considering bringing in the cage (that is the card that i went back to take out as i figured he could just kill me w/o a creature). Shrout suggests leaving in the Dazes and taking out the Hymns, I'm not sure if this is correct as in g1 i actually had the Daze in my hand when he powered out the forgemaster, and a DRS into waste/hymn on t2 could really set him back.My concern with Daze was just that it was turned off so quickly by Sol lands, etc. An early chalice is bad, but i did leave the decays in to deal with that and trinishpere. Dismember was also a consideration, but again i decided against it which i likely incorrect. I haven't ever played this particular m/u (watch me read every card he plays). I think firing off the waste on t1 of 1 may have been a mistake, but I had played 12 post earlier in the event so i figured he was on that and not MUD. g2 i fired off the end step brainstorm b/c i needed a land to cast the null rod in my hand (i held FOW blue card the whole game to protect it). The commentators were confused b/c i misssed my 2nd land drop (no cheating here). g3 i opened on 6 lands pierce, mulled into no lands, and then had to keep a pretty weak 5. Never saw a 2nd land : ( I'll be running this deck back at the Invi next weekend, so any advice could be appreciated especially with the fringe archetypes. I played against 12 post, loam pox, MUD, and G/w enchantress.

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I agree with Esper3k. Keep all your hymns in because it's one of your best cards against these type of decks. Your top 3 cards against MUD are, in no particular order: Hymn, Abrupt Decay, Liliana. This matchup is all about grinding their resources down while developing your board. Force of Will's are there mainly to stop them from playing something good early, crippling you with a prison piece, or something so hard to deal with like wurmcoil, although a well placed force of will can really screw them too. Liliana is really good in the matchup since they have very few ways to pressure our planeswalkers as long as you disrupt them some amount in the early game. She helps you grind them out really well, especially if she comes after a hymn or two. With your sb I would change the deck the following way: -2 Daze -2 Tombstalker, +1 Dismember, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle or Grafdigger's Cage. Vendilon Clique is pretty good because taking away a crucial card can really cripple them, but I wouldn't side in the second only because you don't want more than three 3-drops main deck. I'm undecided on pithing needle or grafdigger's cage. They both have a lot of utility against MUD so I'll leave that for you to decide. Also, I don't like Daze and Tombstalker against them because daze becomes dead real quickly and tombstalker is the slowest threat among your main deck threats. I'd advise only keeping two dazes main deck to keep the blue count at a decent number for Force. Not a big fan of spell pierce against MUD only because pretty much all of their threats are creature based so you don't have that many targets. That's why I'd rather keep two Daze main deck. Trust me on all this. I've actually had an unusually high amount of play experience against MUD with this deck. In general, you have a lot game against them with the kind of tools you have as long as they don't do something powerful early without you having the answer for it and you know how play the matchup.

Played against MUD w/ this deck many times also, not very good results all around. I would leave all the counterspells in, Tombstalkers out. Discard is only mediocre because if you don't capitalize off your tempo early game they can top deck into many cards you cannot answer. I would not take out any Dazes on the play or draw. Card is way too important with the conjunction of Wasteland. Sometimes many of their lands enter tapped (cloudpost version). Spell Pierce is only good early, and isn't too good either because they are usually trying to resolve a creature for their kill-con, don't even need Trinisphere / Chalice to win. If they resolve Wurmcoil, we lose, Forgemaster, we lose, etc etc. Since we don't have Swords to Plowshares.

I'm not a huge fan of Vendilion Clique unless you have it ASAP, it doesn't really do combat very well vs their creatures and I do think discard effects is a poor against MUD in general. Once they have their mana, almost any resolved threat in their deck is game since Abrupt Decay is an awkward removal spell at times.

Maybe on the play we can use Daze / Countermagic, and use discard on the draw to catch up / tap out since Daze losses more value in this matchup than any other. Does that logic seem okay?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grizzlegrizzle

I would like to discuss SB strategies in the MUD match up.
I play 2 stalkers/2 lillys/4 Hymns with this SB:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Sylvan Library
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sugrical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

Here is the link to my video from SCG INDY:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDAv-c-_wVs

I boarded in 3 pierce/1 needle/1 null rod for 4 Daze/ 1 Hymn. I also considering bringing in the cage (that is the card that i went back to take out as i figured he could just kill me w/o a creature). Shrout suggests leaving in the Dazes and taking out the Hymns, I'm not sure if this is correct as in g1 i actually had the Daze in my hand when he powered out the forgemaster, and a DRS into waste/hymn on t2 could really set him back.My concern with Daze was just that it was turned off so quickly by Sol lands, etc. An early chalice is bad, but i did leave the decays in to deal with that and trinishpere. Dismember was also a consideration, but again i decided against it which i likely incorrect. I haven't ever played this particular m/u (watch me read every card he plays). I think firing off the waste on t1 of 1 may have been a mistake, but I had played 12 post earlier in the event so i figured he was on that and not MUD. g2 i fired off the end step brainstorm b/c i needed a land to cast the null rod in my hand (i held FOW blue card the whole game to protect it). The commentators were confused b/c i misssed my 2nd land drop (no cheating here). g3 i opened on 6 lands pierce, mulled into no lands, and then had to keep a pretty weak 5. Never saw a 2nd land : ( I'll be running this deck back at the Invi next weekend, so any advice could be appreciated especially with the fringe archetypes. I played against 12 post, loam pox, MUD, and G/w enchantress.

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You'll have have to unfortunately accept the fact that there are many matchups that you cannot beat with this deck, I hope you can accept that fact! I do believe in the invitational meta you'll be seeing many more fair / unfair meta decks than the ones you mentioned, so TA is still a solid choice. You have to play well and play vs the right decks to win. Let's pray that you don't play vs BUG Nic Fit all day.

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Originally Posted by Jessenator

Played against MUD w/ this deck many times also, not very good results all around. I would leave all the counterspells in, Tombstalkers out. Discard is only mediocre because if you don't capitalize off your tempo early game they can top deck into many cards you cannot answer. I would not take out any Dazes on the play or draw. Card is way too important with the conjunction of Wasteland. Sometimes many of their lands enter tapped (cloudpost version). Spell Pierce is only good early, and isn't too good either because they are usually trying to resolve a creature for their kill-con, don't even need Trinisphere / Chalice to win. If they resolve Wurmcoil, we lose, Forgemaster, we lose, etc etc. Since we don't have Swords to Plowshares.

I'm not a huge fan of Vendilion Clique unless you have it ASAP, it doesn't really do combat very well vs their creatures and I do think discard effects is a poor against MUD in general. Once they have their mana, almost any resolved threat in their deck is game since Abrupt Decay is an awkward removal spell at times.

Maybe on the play we can use Daze / Countermagic, and use discard on the draw to catch up / tap out since Daze losses more value in this matchup than any other. Does that logic seem okay?

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Really? I guess you and me have had different experiences. I have had a pretty good win rate against any sort of MUD deck thus far. The way I play the matchup is influenced by my days with Shardless BUG and Jund, decks that have even more game against MUD imo. I've played some pretty good MUD Players and they hate seeing Hymn to Tourach, Abrupt Decay, and Liliana in one deck. I can get behind keeping the dazes in but I disagree on Hymns being mediocre. Card is bonkers good in the matchup and makes Liliana more back breaking. And what creatures does vendilion clique not combat well with besides Steel Hellkite? Typically I've used it just as an evasive beater, not so much to block anything really :P

@grizzlegrizzle: I'm not sure if it's worth testing against fringe decks like MUD. You're better off testing against hard tier matchups like Elves, Death and Taxes, and Miracles or potential invitational meta decks that might see a decent amount of play like imperial painter. I'm pretty sure all of the above decks are going to be played in significantly higher percentages than MUD.

thats true, but i've played plenty of games vs the popular/tier decks in the format. It is just one of those things where nobody around here plays the deck, so I had zero games played in that match up. i would agree that it does seem like one of our worst.

I made top 8 this past weekend in a local SCG IQ. I forget the exact number, but there were between 30-40 players iirc. 6 Rounds of Swiss.

Matches:
2-1 Shardless BUG
0-2 UR Delver (price of Progress ftl)
2-1 MUD
2-0 UWR Delver
2-0 Merfolk
ID

Lost the first round of top 8 1-2 to UG Infect -- game 1 he had a nut draw and killed me on turn 2 (maybe 3, I forget), beat him soundly game 2, game 3 was relatively close but he had enough counterspells and threats to grind me out. Abrupt Decay and Lili do nothing against Inkmoth Nexus, and Vines of Vastwood 'counters' targeted removal. Invigorate also counters -X/-X removal. The deck runs Daze and FoW, so overall I'd say this matchup is somewhat even despite seeming easy. One thing to be aware of is that they run Submerge in the SB, so if you can resolve a DRS consider only fetching Underground Seas to avoid a blowout.

Decks in the top 8: Me (TA); UG Infect; TA (eventual winner); UR Delver; Shardless BUG; UB Tezzeret; the last two I don't recall but I think it was Elves and Dredge?

Decklist was my usual:
20 lands, 4/4/4 delver/DRS/goyf, 4/4 ponder/bstorm, 4/4/4 daze/FoW/hymn, 4/3/1 decay/Lili/sylvan library

SB:
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
3 Shardless Agent
2 Envelop
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Swamp

The maindeck felt solid, I don't miss the 13th or 14th creature slots as I had no trouble closing out games. I also liked the 3rd Liliana because I resolved her in just about every game.

Shardless Agent is the real deal and its performance this tournament justified my previous testing experience. It was great in every matchup I brought it in. Unlike Shardless BUG, TA seems to have a fair game 1 against the entire field, and doesn't punt as many games to combo. Devoting just 3 slots to this card in the SB gets you close to the power level of Shardless BUG without having to run the clunky maindeck/sideboard shell around it.

The basic Swamp was a meta decision, and something I would probably drop in a bigger tournament. As good as Shardless was, I'd consider maybe dropping down to 2 copies in a bigger tournament -- they paid off in this one since there seemed to be a decent amount of midrange/control.

The other singleton slots all justified their inclusion and got sided in at least once over the course of the tournament. Grafdigger's Cage shuts down multiple strategies, so it seems to be the most versatile graveyard hate spell and worth at least 1 slot.

Envelop could probably just be Spell Pierce, but it's really quite great against UWr Miracles and Show and Tell. Maybe a future sideboard would be a 2/1 or 1/1 split of the two.

Due to the prevalence of X/1 creatures, I think Darkblast might come back to the SB. Being able to cast it turn 1 and also recur it makes it often better than Golgari Charm.

Congrats on your success wcm8. I was wondering how your configuration has been when you've played against Elves? I'm a little worried about that matchup since there are a good amount Elves players in the Columbus area so that deck should be well represented at the Columbus Open this weekend. It's the only reason I'm even considering playing Canadian over Team.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Congrats on your success wcm8. I was wondering how your configuration has been when you've played against Elves? I'm a little worried about that matchup since there are a good amount Elves players in the Columbus area so that deck should be well represented at the Columbus Open this weekend. It's the only reason I'm even considering playing Canadian over Team.

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If I were faced against Elves with the exact configuration I posted, I would sideboard thusly:

+3 Agent
+3 Disfigure
+2 Charm
+1 Cage
+2 Envelop
+1 Clique

-4 Daze
-4 Hymn
-1 Bayou
-3 Goyf

Goyf gets stalled too frequently; Daze is ineffectual most of the time, they don't pressure your mana base so Bayou can be dropped, and Hymn is not that amazing in my experience since these games often get grindy.

Envelop counters their relevant spells, as does Cage. Clique is a relevant threat, and Shardless can give you some needed card advantage. The removal speaks for itself. Maybe bring in Maelstrom Pulse and cut a Liliana as well.

The elves matchup can go either way. If you expect to see a lot of it, you really ought to play more sideboard cards for it: Darkblast, the 3rd Golgari Charm, Night of Souls' Betrayal, the 2nd Cage, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wcm8

If I were faced against Elves with the exact configuration I posted, I would sideboard thusly:

+3 Agent
+3 Disfigure
+2 Charm
+1 Cage
+2 Envelop
+1 Clique

-4 Daze
-4 Hymn
-1 Bayou
-3 Goyf

Goyf gets stalled too frequently; Daze is ineffectual most of the time, they don't pressure your mana base so Bayou can be dropped, and Hymn is not that amazing in my experience since these games often get grindy.

Envelop counters their relevant spells, as does Cage. Clique is a relevant threat, and Shardless can give you some needed card advantage. The removal speaks for itself. Maybe bring in Maelstrom Pulse and cut a Liliana as well.

The elves matchup can go either way. If you expect to see a lot of it, you really ought to play more sideboard cards for it: Darkblast, the 3rd Golgari Charm, Night of Souls' Betrayal, the 2nd Cage, etc.

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The other day I played against Elves for the first time ever in competitive play. So I wasn't too sure what I should do, I'm sure you can imagine. I tried -4 Wasteland -4 Daze to make space for what I wanted to board in. My thoughts were that if they get to use Cradle once, it's probably enough to do the crazy shit Elves do, so being able to Waste it afterwards seemed pointless. It worked very well for me. Has anyone else tried this?

Elves just have so many ways to make mana, Wasting them out of the game seems nearly impossible, and like I said, Wasting Cradle is nice, but they always get to use it at least once, which should be enough.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

The other day I played against Elves for the first time ever in competitive play. So I wasn't too sure what I should do, I'm sure you can imagine. I tried -4 Wasteland -4 Daze to make space for what I wanted to board in. My thoughts were that if they get to use Cradle once, it's probably enough to do the crazy shit Elves do, so being able to Waste it afterwards seemed pointless. It worked very well for me. Has anyone else tried this?

Elves just have so many ways to make mana, Wasting them out of the game seems nearly impossible, and like I said, Wasting Cradle is nice, but they always get to use it at least once, which should be enough.

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That's a fair approach. Occasionally they can get stranded with a Bayou or early Cradle with no mana-producers (or that you destroy), where wasteland can be helpful. But I can definitely see the merit of cutting some number of Waste -- by no means is it an auto-4x in this matchup.

I think if you want to include Wasteland, it's as part of a mana denial gameplan, so going after Heritage Druids and the like with aggressive Charm use and such. Doesn't sound that good to me because small boards like Quirion, Arbor, Forest = Progenitus/Worldspine. I think a good approach is to just overload on removal, because even though Elves can go bigger-than-you in basically any direction thinkable - draw, creature numbers, creature size, board control even - the setup phase usually has a lynchpin card or two and Elves loses a tremendous amount of tempo if they get killed. Clamping down hard on any one angle is unlikely to work against a savvy pilot - he'll just pick a different angle of attack and crush you from there.

Public Enemies: Wirewood Symbiote, Quirion Ranger. People often try to kill Heritage Druids but that's just free value for Elves, Heritage is a bit of a win more card, not a win card. Quirion is a win card. Symbiote I think everyone understands. Natural Order and GSZ are the key cards, Glimpse is just random value, it's way less of a surefire kill than it used to be. If they're casting a second, counter ASAP. Elves with two Glimpses resolved means you should be taking measurements for your coffin.

I'd agree with wcm8, Waste is never an auto-4x in combo matchups for me. For me personally, this is how I would SB for elves (decklist in sig):

IN:
2x Disfigure
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Sylvan Library
2x Vendilion Clique

OUT:
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Bayou
1x Daze

On another note, I find myself cutting Lili quite a bit in combo matchups (except reanimator/S&S), does everyone else do the same?

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Originally Posted by TheHeff

I'd agree with wcm8, Waste is never an auto-4x in combo matchups for me. For me personally, this is how I would SB for elves (decklist in sig):

IN:
2x Disfigure
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Sylvan Library
2x Vendilion Clique

OUT:
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Bayou
1x Daze

On another note, I find myself cutting Lili quite a bit in combo matchups (except reanimator/S&S), does everyone else do the same?

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Well it depends on the matchup and what I can bring in from the SB. I always side her out against elves because she does almost nothing in most situations. Against regular spell-based combo decks I usually keep at least two in since she helps provide repetitive disruption, but you don't want to flood on her since she's a three drop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheHeff

I'd agree with wcm8, Waste is never an auto-4x in combo matchups for me. For me personally, this is how I would SB for elves (decklist in sig):

IN:
2x Disfigure
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Sylvan Library
2x Vendilion Clique

OUT:
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Bayou
1x Daze

On another note, I find myself cutting Lili quite a bit in combo matchups (except reanimator/S&S), does everyone else do the same?

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I rarely do, but mostly because I need to remove 4 decay for 2 pierce, a FoW and a Clique (currently on 3 hymn, 3 FoW, 2 thoughtseize) and basically nothing else (unless it's Elves).

I still like her vs Elves as a way to keep slowing them after that initial Hymn; she's still active under a Leyline and sometimes kills an Inkwell Leviathan or Elesh Norn.

Only against Storm would I cut her quickly, and even then only for Null Rod/Cage

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

Hey all. Long-time reader and fairly long-time player of the deck (about 6 months of consistent play in competitive REL, including a few SCGS).
This weekend I came in 27th at SCG Providence, going 6-0 and losing 2 win-and-ins back to back (with my breakers, 7-1-1 was a likely lock, and 7-0-2 was a guaranteed lock). I intentionally drew in my final round to lock top 32 instead of fighting for a top 16 decklist publication (I made the mistake of fighting for the fame in Detroit and lost to Deadguy aficionado Wilkin Chau). It’s a good thing too, since my opponent was playing 12-post and I am not overly confident in that matchup.
I ran the following list:

Lands – 19:
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island

Creatures – 14:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
1x Tombstalker
1x Vendilion Clique

Other – 27:

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Thoughtseize
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Disfigure

1x Sylvan Library
1x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard:

3x Golgari Charm
2x Disfigure
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Spell Pierce
1x Envelop
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Some notes on card choices:

-The Thoughtseize vs. Hymn debate has been very lively in this forum. When played against me in a mirror match, hymns were fairly good. Nevertheless, though I was never dogmatically committed to my preference for thoughtseize, I am fairly certain I played the right card for this event. 4 thoughtseize is likely too many, however. I was happy alleviating the number of maindeck BB costs I had to work with in a field which I anticipated (correctly) would be rife with delver mirrors. Being able to discard turn 1 when on the draw was huge in a variety of situations. Additionally, hitting the best target in hand felt on-par power wise to my prior experiences with hymn. Costing less was no joke, either, especially when on a 19-land (maindeck) list with only 3 seas.

-My only losses were mirror matches. In one match, my opponent played 3 lilianas (see the 11th place list) maindeck. In the other, eventual top 8 player Jerry Mee played 0 in his 75 (echoing Greg Muller’s continually successful stifle-heavy build, with some fairly significant modifications mostly designed for combating the mirror, it seems). Stifles felt very good against me (at least as the matches turned out...though stifle is always dependent on your opponent’s draw) while liliana was more or less fine but not backbreaking. My intuitions on how many 3cc walkers to run has not stabilized. There is good reason to run more than 1 maindeck and good reason to run fewer. I do not think BUG delver has reached an equilibrium on this yet.

-The maindeck library was great. I advise people treat this as more potent than just a sideboard card to be brought in only for attrition matchups, if they are not already running it main. Arguments for a second in the board are perfectly reasonable as well but, alas, space is finite.

-The maelstrom pulse in the board was strong: like others here, I had feared that its cost and sorcery speed would be a liability, but trusted my gut and kept it in on account of its generic power level and its capacity for hitting problem permanents like entreat tokens, jaces, opposing goyfs, batterskull, lingering souls tokens, etcetera. Nevertheless, being a 3cc sorcery intrinsically counts against its inclusion, so I am not dogmatic here either. It was very good in the matches I played, but the sample size is small (granted, I’ve played it in my board for several other tournaments and it has also shined).

-The 1-of maindeck disfigure may not be as objectively powerful as an additional liliana but I was hedging for a lot of delver matchups and was rewarded handsomely whenever I drew it (where liliana would be too slow, too vulnerable, or uncastable).

-My sentiments on the exclusion of confidant and TNN are the same as Bob Huang’s. They make golgari charm less powerful and, for those who run multiples, it should be clear how crucial the card is to sideboarding in many matchups. In any case, my opponents were unable to bring theirs in during the mirror matches whereas I was able to (my BUG mirror opponents ran 3 TNN and 2 confidant, respectively). Unfortunately I never drew the 2 that I boarded in for both mirror matches: had I drawn them, I would have smoothly beat Jerry Mee in game 3 where his only threat was a TNN to close the game. On a similar note, Tombstalker is unstoppable in the mirror unless a liliana gets the better of it. This was relevant in both games where I managed to win versus my mirror opponents.

Matchups:
Round 1 – UW Miracles (2-1):
I lose game 1 by forcing a sensei’s top instead of baiting his force with a threat, and get punished when he resolves Jace shortly thereafter.
Game 2 I run him over with the incredible power of needle, and clique with a miracle trigger on the stack. In game 3, envelop is very good as I draw it to counter a terminus. He wastes a force and a flusterstorm on it in order to resolve the terminus. After the fact, I run him over with a delver and clique still in hand.

Round 2 – UR Delver (2-1):
My opponent goes on about his inexperience in the format, and it does show somewhat. He counters the wrong cards and despite two mulligans to five, I close the match in 3.

Round 3 – RUG Delver (2-0):
My opponent is on a true-name build. Game 1 we trade removal and I get the better of him with more threats. Game 2 I draw both surgicals too late to extract his red or green sources, so I eat all of his bolts and mongooses. Eating the bolts with surgical turns out to be game winning, as he never draws answers for my 2x deathrite shaman. His submerges prove to be mediocre as I am too far ahead.

Round 4 – Shardless BUG Brew (2-1):
His build is unorthodox. I thoughtseize him seeing a tundra in hand game 1, along with agent and some other cards. He beats me game 1 by outvaluing me. I am confused about his build as I never see any white cards, and I know that shardless lists running meddling mages usually confine their white source to the board.
Game 2 I simply play a typical game where I daze his relevant spells and run him down with unanswered goyfs.
Game 3 comes down to the wire, where he steals my goyf with a sower of temptation and I manage to flip two delvers to fly over him. He declines trading his sower for a delver until he is in range of deathrite activations for the kill.

Round 5 – Esperblade (2-1):
Game 1 I get punished when I stabilize and decline to -2 my liliana (which has 3 loyalty) to kill his snapcaster, holding a disfigure in hand to kill it instead. I try to preserve its loyalty in case he finds a true-name nemesis. Perhaps I had tunnel-vision here and should have been more conservative with my disfigure. Anyway, he end-steps a maindeck clique (which isn’t all that unorthodox so I should have considered it) and I am forced to disfigure it. Unfortunately, snapcaster now attacks my lili to 1 and I am never able to deal with it once he resolves jitte to equip.
Game 2 my maelstrom pulse, needle, and golgari charm keep his lingering tokens and jace at bay and after he misplays an engineered explosives on 0 without the mana to activate it that same turn (hoping to kill my delver) I abrupt decay it. He never comes back.
Game 3 we resort to topdeck mode and my creeping tar pit gets their unanswered.

Round 6 – UWR (Patriot) Delver (2-1):
I lose game 1 (see a theme here?) to his generically superior draw. I don’t recall any distinct misplays but the game went very, very late. His batterskull was the win.
Game 2 is a blur, but I win somehow. Game 3 I manage to kill off 2x rest in peace, growing a goyf to a 4/5 the same turn I charm the 2nd rest in peace away. All of his stoneforges get disfigured, and my liliana wins on an otherwise empty board. Creeping tar pit is once again invaluable in the wasteland mirror. This card is not just for fighting the jace decks.

Round 7 – BUG Delver (1-2):
I lose in 3 to eventual top 8 competitor Jerry Mee. Game 1 he stifles and wastelands me into oblivion (he is also on the play and resolves the turn 1 deathrite shaman). Obviously stifle is great on the play and helps you win by leaps and bounds whenever your opponent’s draw is fetch-heavy. No doubt I am not supposed to win a game like that.
Game 2 I stick the first deathrite, and with the help of a sylvan library I draw into 3 wastelands consecutively. I use the library very aggressively to stay ahead (taking 12 total off of it).
Game 3 is a tight boardstate where I never draw a charm for his true name and he gets there when my goyf is stone-walled by another goyf. He is the first to draw even a single abrupt decay in the game, and it means my goyf cannot stone wall his.

Round 8 – BUG Delver (1-2):
This match is where I make my most egregious misplay. No doubt I felt pressured although in recent months I have made leaps and bounds in avoiding tilt during win-and-ins. I am rather angry at myself after I lose game 3 and berate myself pretty heavily. My opponent declines to chat much after the match, for good reason (if you are reading, Amin, I apologise for being a child about it – congrats on your finish!).

Anyway, I do not have all that much to say about this match. I lose a game, and win with a tar-pit unanswered in game 2 (he nearly bluffs me well enough to prevent me from attacking for lethal on the critical turn, but I decline to be cautious since I cannot afford to be).

Game 3 is where the boardstate becomes fairly convoluted. I have 2 deathrites to his 1 deathrite, and he has a deathrite and an unflipped delver to my goyf, 2x deathrite and no delver. But I am at 1 life and he is at 7. I do some bad math with deathrites and somehow, when he wastelands my open bayou, I activate one of my deathrites in response (without another green source up). He is able to exploit my deathrite activation by using his own, and I lose. In hindsight, this was a complete brain-fart. All I needed to do was decline to activate deathrites: if he went for the kill, I could eat a land from his yard with 1 of my deathrites and eat whatever he targets with my other deathrite. I have no idea how I managed to perform so poorly on this turn but, alas, I did it and I was pretty mad at myself for the rest of the tournament.

If I had not activated my deathrites, he would have been forced to pass. My goyf could attack him to 3, and if he did not flip his delver one more time he would be forced to block with either his delver or his deathrite. Granted, I only win if he doesn’t flip it, but he had not set up a brainstorm or a ponder to do so. He also would have needed to not draw an answer for the goyf. Still, I put myself in a losing position for no reason. Never again.

I hope this was a useful rundown of my experience in Providence!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grizzlegrizzle

I would like to discuss SB strategies in the MUD match up.
I play 2 stalkers/2 lillys/4 Hymns with this SB:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Sylvan Library
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sugrical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

Here is the link to my video from SCG INDY:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDAv-c-_wVs

I boarded in 3 pierce/1 needle/1 null rod for 4 Daze/ 1 Hymn. I also considering bringing in the cage (that is the card that i went back to take out as i figured he could just kill me w/o a creature). Shrout suggests leaving in the Dazes and taking out the Hymns, I'm not sure if this is correct as in g1 i actually had the Daze in my hand when he powered out the forgemaster, and a DRS into waste/hymn on t2 could really set him back.My concern with Daze was just that it was turned off so quickly by Sol lands, etc. An early chalice is bad, but i did leave the decays in to deal with that and trinishpere. Dismember was also a consideration, but again i decided against it which i likely incorrect. I haven't ever played this particular m/u (watch me read every card he plays). I think firing off the waste on t1 of 1 may have been a mistake, but I had played 12 post earlier in the event so i figured he was on that and not MUD. g2 i fired off the end step brainstorm b/c i needed a land to cast the null rod in my hand (i held FOW blue card the whole game to protect it). The commentators were confused b/c i misssed my 2nd land drop (no cheating here). g3 i opened on 6 lands pierce, mulled into no lands, and then had to keep a pretty weak 5. Never saw a 2nd land : ( I'll be running this deck back at the Invi next weekend, so any advice could be appreciated especially with the fringe archetypes. I played against 12 post, loam pox, MUD, and G/w enchantress.

---

I can see you being very unlucky in this round. Game two was the best game by you and even there your draws were under medicore. This just happens sometimes in magic that your deck refuses to play with you and doesn't give you anything you want.

@carnifex: Thanks for the tourney write-up! I'm a newer TA player myself so it's always nice to get the perspective of someone that's taken the deck to the tournament level. Sorry about your two win-and-ins, but congrats on your success overall!

I have a quick write-up from my weekly legacy Tuesday, overall it wasn't a great showing but I hit some tough matchups (and lost the die roll in all 3 matches), and am always looking to tweak my deck (see sig). As always, I'd love comments on my sideboarding choices since I'm fairly new to the legacy format in general, not just TA. Thanks in advance!

Round 1: Sneak and Show (0-2)
I hit this same player last week and went 2-0 so while it's not a favorable MU, I know it's winnable against this pilot (just seems very draw dependant). Game 1 I kept a balanced hand with a good mix of lands, threats, and disruption. I cast hymn T2 (on the draw) and it gets spell pierced instantly, so I knew he was likely holding all the pieces he needed to go off next turn. I had a FoW and daze in hand, so I was dead if he had countermagic, which he did and S&T'd an Emrakul into play. Basically Liliana or bust at that point. Draw wasn't her, so on to SB games:

IN: Flusterstorm, 3x Spell Pierce, 1x Sylvan Library, 2x V-Clique
OUT: 2x Abrupt Decay, 4x Tarmogoyf, 1x Bayou

In hindsight, I needed the Golgari Charms for Blood Moon and Sneak Attack, so I probably should've cut the other 2 decays for those 2 charms. Game 2 I resolved an early thoughtseize to take his S&T and a hymn for further disruption, he drew into another S&T but I had 2 FoWs and 2 Dazes in hand, so it didn't resolve (although he did have the pierce to force the second FoW). The pivotal turn was when I tapped my green source to play DRS and he dropped Blood Moon next turn even though I had the Decay in hand. I really needed to get something on board to pressure him, I was just a little unlucky. I managed to exile a land to cast a second DRS with hopes of generating the mana I needed for Decay, but he dropped a second Moon that turn. Died quickly after to a Griselbrand and Emrakul with Sneak Attack.

Round 2: TA Mirror (2-1)
My opponent isn't a very frequent attender of the Tues events so it's actually the first time I've played the mirror. G1 I was OTD but managed to have a DRS, goyf, and 2 delvers on board around T5 and he just scooped, on to SB games:

IN: 2x Disfigure, 1x Sylvan Library, 2x V-Clique, 3x Spell Pierce
OUT: 4x FoW, 4x Daze

Not sure if this configuration is right, but I went with it. G2 was a super grindfest compared to G1 with both of us decaying and Liliana'ing like crazy. I eventually brick a couple of turns while he has Confidant out, I manage to clear his board (with mine clear too) and he drops a goyf. I draw Liliana for the turn but he Cliques and buries it, then hits me for the win next turn. G3 was also grindy but I had the Library and was able to pull out the win. Overall, really fun games- lots of interaction, very swingy, 10/10 would be excited to play this MU again :).

Round 3: The Gate (0-2)
I knew what this guy was playing, as he's a frequent player on Tues. For those of you not familiar with the deck, it's a mono-black control deck with Lilianas, Hymns, Thoughtseizes, Cabal Therapies, Vampire Nighthawk, Phyrexian Obliterator, Gatekeeper of Malakir, that sort of thing. G1 he resolved an early top (a 1-of, I found out) that allowed him to eventually pull out the win, even though he dropped 3 Bitterblossoms (all of which got decayed) but was eventually beat down by 2 Faerie tokens and a Confidant not being able to keep a creature on the table.

IN: 2x Golgari Charm, Null Rod, 3x Spell Pierce, 1x Sylvan Library, 2x V-Clique
OUT: 3x Hymn, 2x Thoughtseize, 4x FoW

I'm not sure if it's correct but I figure his deck is built around discard with a full set of Lilis and sac effects, so he'll be more resistant to this type strategy. Overall I'd need to playtest this MU a bit more, but I wanted to eliminate my discard and FoW (since I don't really want to be 2-for-1'ing). Still, it doesn't seem like a great matchup for us...he had 8 maindeck edict effects so keeping creatures on the table was extremely difficult.


A few deckbuilding questions:
I see a lot more people running the 19 land version, do you find you really miss that final land against Wasteland decks? My meta is mostly combo so it might be right to cut a fetch, but there are also two consistent RUG players there and it's a scary concept. The maindeck Sylvan Library was insane, it's definitely staying it- I'm still trying to find the happy medium between drawing too many cards and too few cards (sometimes you just have to take 8 to clear the top of your deck), but the power of the card is insane. A second in the SB might be overkill, however. I'm thinking I might include a Pithing Needle as a good catch-all answer to bad matchups. Clique was a great card for me and since I'm playing the 12 creature version, I'm considering bringing one Clique MD and maybe trading one Liliana. She's a great card (and would take the SB place of the Clique) but it's either trim 1 of her, trim 1 land, or go to 4 hymn instead of 3 hymn/2 thoughtseize, but I've really been liking TS as a card. 1 CMC (which is big for this deck) plus hand information for 2 life, not a bad deal. Plus if you T1 land -> DRS, T2 land, you can TS then hymn to take their best card and increase your chances for hitting their land. It's a super broken turn. I'm really liking the 3/2 split so far (plus more spells = better chance at delver flip, which is always a little shaky with this deck).

Any comments/thoughts on my list? Again see my sig below for the full list!

I would recommend the following changes to your sideboard:

-1 spell pierce
-1 maelstrom pulse
-1 vendilion clique

+1 maelstrom pulse
+1 envelop
+1 disfigure or some other removal spell

This is what I'm working on right now, designed to prey on the diverse, but leaning towards the fair side, metagame that I play regularly in. Small local coming up on monday.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dismember
1 Liliana of the Veil


SB:
3 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hiski

I can see you being very unlucky in this round. Game two was the best game by you and even there your draws were under medicore. This just happens sometimes in magic that your deck refuses to play with you and doesn't give you anything you want.

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Yea the draw in g3 was abysmal, but it happens. I was actually really happy with my opener in g2. I had DRS, Null rod, FOW + Blue card, and ponder so i would snap keep it in this m/u every time.

For the Invitational this weekend I'm splitting 1/1 Clique/Stalker main so that i can play the 3rd golgari charm in the SB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Purgatory

This is what I'm working on right now, designed to prey on the diverse, but leaning towards the fair side, metagame that I play regularly in. Small local coming up on monday.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dismember
1 Liliana of the Veil


SB:
3 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod

---

drop a FoW to the board for another maindeck Lilly. I also prefer Sylvan in the main.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

Anyone got any advice for sideboarding against Shardless BUG with the following list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
9 Fetches
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Disfigure
3 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge

My current sideboard plan is:
On the play ==> -4 Force of Will, +3 Disfigure, 1+ Spell Pierce
On the draw ==> -2 Daze, -2 Force of Will, +3 Disfigure, 1+ Spell Pierce

The Disfigures are for their Deathrite Shamans or to break a Tarmogoyf stalemate. The Spell Pierce is to counter either planeswalkers or expensive removal spells (e.g., Maelstrom Pulse or Toxic Deluge).

I am not set on this sideboard plan as it has not worked out too well. Any advice with respect to this or the matchup in general would be greatly appreciated.

Hi all (and Dragonslayer, its Chris from Jersey)

Sorry boogle, I don't have much experience playing against Shardless BUG but can comment generally on what I think the matchup is like. In this case, you sort of want to be the aggro-ish deck since if the game goes long, your cards such as delver and spell pierce will only get worse while their incremental card advantage will only grow. Bringing cards in like disfigure is not the greatest as that will only allow you to conditionally 1-for-1 with an opponent that is trying to 2-for-1 you at every opportunity. Therefore, the more cards you can board in to make that aggressive plan more successful that can also potentially 2-for-1 your opponent or at least get rid of a powerful permanent, the better.

+1 vendilion cliques to flash in to get rid of planeswalkers
+1 needle against planeswalkers
+1or2 golgari charm to get rid of baleful strix and also potentially re-gen your tarmo's/delver in response to a Decay (not sure of the value here, again haven't played the matchup too often). It would seem that given your build, your best option is to go through the air with your Tombstalker/Delver rather than trying to get through on the ground and clearing the air along with re-gen seems good.

Others who have played that matchup more can possibly chime in here.

As far as what I'm looking at, the more I play the Death & Taxes Matchup, the more that I don't like it... I could use some commentary.

At the moment, I've got 2 disfigure main

Here's the sideboard tech that I bring in against it:
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Massacre
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
2 Goglari Charm

Generally side out all my Force/Daze but I feel like it just devolves into a top-deck war and whoever gets the better cards just wins. I'm something like 0-5 against the deck recently in the last few months and at this point am starting to think maybe it's me... Should I be siding out discard/liliana here instead of Counters to avoid wilt-lief liege (the cause of one or two of the losses). Should I also be bringing in Engineered Plague on Human (another card in my SB) or what other things can I do to make this matchup better? There's a lot of it in my current local meta (in addition to maverick, which plays similarly)

The good news is that I'm not as afraid of the Imperial Painter or Miracles matchup after playing those... I'm something like 3-2 vs Painter and 3-1 against miracles so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shadowhunter007

Hi all (and Dragonslayer, its Chris from Jersey)

The more I play the Death & Taxes Matchup, the more that I don't like it...

At the moment, I've got 2 disfigure main

Here's the sideboard tech that I bring in against it:
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Massacre
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
2 Goglari Charm

Generally side out all my Force/Daze but I feel like it just devolves into a top-deck war and whoever gets the better cards just wins. I'm something like 0-5 against the deck recently in the last few months and at this point am starting to think maybe it's me... Should I be siding out discard/liliana here instead of Counters to avoid wilt-lief liege (the cause of one or two of the losses). Should I also be bringing in Engineered Plague on Human (another card in my SB) or what other things can I do to make this matchup better? There's a lot of it in my current local meta (in addition to maverick, which plays similarly)

The good news is that I'm not as afraid of the Imperial Painter or Miracles matchup after playing those... I'm something like 3-2 vs Painter and 3-1 against miracles so far.

---

Hey Chris,

Hope all is well with you and your bro! I would like to see the rest of your list to see what you're working with. Are you playing the similar threat heavy one you ran at Somerset? Thalia decks in general can be rough and swingy for this deck. It is really is play/draw dependent, though I'd say it's still only 55-45 in their favor if you've played Team America for a while. In playing Team the strategy I've gotten used to in facing those decks is playing removal the gathering essentially. I've also gotten into a habit of having to Force of Wills on the draw. This may not be correct with your list since you seem to have so much removal in your 75, but my list does not have as much hate for those decks as yours. Thus, I like having the option to counter devastating Turn One plays like Aether Vial or Mother of Runes when on the draw.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by o_boogie

Anyone got any advice for sideboarding against Shardless BUG

---

Putting In:
+3 Disfigure (kill early DRS)
+1 Pithing Needle (naming Jace, or Liliana/Creeping Tarpit in a desperate board state. Yes I am aware of them running Abrupt Decay, but it's easier to cast needle whenever than it is to properly time your singleton Spell Pierce)
+1 Vendilion Clique (to deal with Jace and Liliana, as well as just being a good attacker)
+1 Liliana of the Veil (more removal is always welcome)
and MAYBE +1/2 Golgari Charm (counters abrupt decay, destroys Sylvan Library, if they run Baleful Strix this will clear the board of them)

Taking Out:
-4 FoW (you don't want to fight them on the stack)
-2-4 Daze or maybe Hymn (see above. Although Hymn is also iffy on the draw sometimes.)

This matchup is tough, but with some luck you can get there.

Just picked up BUG Delver this week. I understand this deck can be built in many ways, so I'm finding it difficult to come up with an decent list by myself.

I haven't played with Hymn to Tourach much, but I feel more comfortable with Thoughtseize instead because I have control over what card it takes. Without Hymn, the mana base can be a bit more stable as well. Can this deck perform fine against a large field without Hymn? Is it a mistake to not play it?

Here is what I'm working with at the moment, I'd really appreciate some feedback on it.

[ 14 creatures ]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

[ 19 instants ]
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will

[ 8 sorceries ]
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

[ 19 lands ]
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

[ 15 sideboard ]
2 Duress
2 Envelop
3 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Null Rod
3 Surgical Extraction

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CronoSabre

Just picked up BUG Delver this week. I understand this deck can be built in many ways, so I'm finding it difficult to come up with an decent list by myself.

I haven't played with Hymn to Tourach much, but I feel more comfortable with Thoughtseize instead because I have control over what card it takes. Without Hymn, the mana base can be a bit more stable as well. Can this deck perform fine against a large field without Hymn? Is it a mistake to not play it?

Here is what I'm working with at the moment, I'd really appreciate some feedback on it.

[ 14 creatures ]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

[ 19 instants ]
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will

[ 8 sorceries ]
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

[ 19 lands ]
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

[ 15 sideboard ]
2 Duress
2 Envelop
3 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Null Rod
3 Surgical Extraction

---

I'm a fan of Hymn. It's a way for us to gain card advantage (something Delver decks tend to lack) while disrupting our opponents a the same time. That being said, if your meta is chock full of SFM and combo, the Thoughtseizes can be better.

I also think you have too much yard hate in your board, but again, a meta call.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

drop a FoW to the board for another maindeck Lilly. I also prefer Sylvan in the main.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

---

I also like Library in the main, and I think I'll swap it and Dismember for the time being. Having extra removal in the board isn't bad in my metagame, where we do have our fair share of Deathrite Shamans, Delvers, Stoneforge Mystics, Bobs, Moms etc. etc.

I was pondering cutting a Force, but I'm not convinced. I play my fair share of unfair decks in any given tournament here. If I was to cut one, it'd probably be to add another Thoughtseize before going to two Lillys though.

Here's my current build:

MAIN DECK
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Ponder
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Daze
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
3 Force of Will
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library

1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacomb
3 Misty Rainforest

SIDEBOARD
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Golgari Charm
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Force of Will
1 Massacre
1 Engineered Plague
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

Looking for some commentary on sideboarding (both cards i may be missing and how to) and play against Death & Taxes (and secondarily Maverick). General commentary on sideboard for a general meta and how to tweak would also be appreciated. Recent changes to the main include adding the Sylvan Library and cutting a Tarmogoyf, cut a 3rd Bob and 2nd TNN for 2 Disfigures in the main to assist in the Fair Matchups and lower my curve slightly.

Against D&T, I generally side as follows:
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Clique
+1 Grip
+1 Massacre
+1 Deluge
+1 Null Rod
+1 Needle
-3 Force
-4 Daze
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Hymn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Purgatory

I also like Library in the main, and I think I'll swap it and Dismember for the time being. Having extra removal in the board isn't bad in my metagame, where we do have our fair share of Deathrite Shamans, Delvers, Stoneforge Mystics, Bobs, Moms etc. etc.

I was pondering cutting a Force, but I'm not convinced. I play my fair share of unfair decks in any given tournament here. If I was to cut one, it'd probably be to add another Thoughtseize before going to two Lillys though.

---

Lilly has only been fantastic in my experience. I'd run 3 if I wasn't so crazy about Tombstalker.

She's slow, yes, and by all means not a Tempo card, but I like the mid/late game advantage she gives us. Just the other day I used Hymn (my last card in hand) and her +1 to wipe out my Deathblade opponent's hand, effectively ending the game for him by turn 4.

Thoughtseize, I will admit, probably has more practical uses, but the bombiness of Lilly (coupled with the powerhouse of DRS and the synergy of Daze/Waste) is why I play the deck. She's also great vs Miracles.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

@wcm8, tried your build tonight(- envelop, swamp + fluster pierce). Felt really good, Found proper outs on time. Shardless was a house.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie

@wcm8, tried your build tonight(- envelop, swamp + fluster pierce). Felt really good, Found proper outs on time. Shardless was a house.

---

Yeah, it's nice being able to cut 12 cards and bring in 12 more, making the deck play like a really good midrange deck.

Example of sideboarding, against DnT or Goblins:
-4 Hymn
-4 Daze
-4 FoW

+3 Shardless
+3 Disfigure
+3 Golgari Charm (right now I am playing the 3rd Charm, although this could instead be a Darkblast or whatever)
+1 Clique
+1 Null Rod (for equipment and Aether Vial, Goblins often sides in Relic of Progenitus)
+1 Maelstrom Pulse

I find that since a lot of games tend to get grindy, you want to cut all of the cards that can potentially be dead top decks, i.e. Daze and Hymn, and against most aggressive decks FoW is fairly bad -- especially if they run Aether Vial or Cavern of Souls. Occasionally I'll leave some number of Hymn in the deck, but it depends on the matchup. For example, against Merfolk, Golgari Charm often isn't enough to kill their threats so you may want to try out-attritioning them by casting Hymn.

I went 6-2 with my list at the invi. Losses were to sneak and show and rug, and I managed to only play one bad matchup (elves). I was 2-1 vs sneak and show and 1-1 vs rug on the weekend.

Also, Hymn is gas vs. the Aether Vial decks. It might be right to take them out on the draw vs. Merfolk, but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by akatsuki

I went 6-2 with my list at the invi. Losses were to sneak and show and rug, and I managed to only play one bad matchup (elves). I was 2-1 vs sneak and show and 1-1 vs rug on the weekend.

Also, Hymn is gas vs. the Aether Vial decks. It might be right to take them out on the draw vs. Merfolk, but that's about it.

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What did your list end up looking like?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by akatsuki

Also, Hymn is gas vs. the Aether Vial decks. It might be right to take them out on the draw vs. Merfolk, but that's about it.

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Hymn is definitely powerful, but how many you keep in against Vial decks depends on what your sideboard looks like. I think you'd agree that it's the third card under consideration to cut after Force and Daze. It's amazingly powerful in the first couple turns, but beyond that a lot of Vial decks seem able to empty their hand so quickly that it becomes a dead draw. If you don't have more relevant cards to bring in instead, then I see the logic in leaving it in.

A Pittsburgh local, "powerful wizard" Rich Shay has been running the deck lately and has had a lot of success in both local and bigger tournaments. His build is similar to mine (12 creatures, 3 planeswalkers), but he opts for a Jace TMS over the third Liliana and has cut the 4th Ponder for various singletons: Piracy Charm, and more recently, Dimir Charm has made an appearance. Since these lists have been published, I don't see the harm in sharing his 'secret tech'.

Jace is a powerhouse in a format where you expect to face a lot of BUG decks: dodges Abrupt Decay, and generally just means you win the game if you untap with him. So I think running one as a consideration for the current BUG-heavy metagame is a great idea.

I'm not so sure about cutting the 4th Ponder, but consider: you don't want to cantrip into even more cantrips, and perhaps 7 is the correct number to give you consistency without as much potential for getting flooded with them. Also, Sylvan Library fulfills a similar function -- in a way you are running 8. So perhaps running a cheap, versatile Blue spell in the 4th Ponder's spot makes sense. I wonder if there is something better out there though...

EDIT: Ignore, I can't read.