Thalia Stompy

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Originally Posted by metronome2charisma

With Top out of the format what changes does everyone expect to see/ make? These are just theories but i think big thalia gets better( is that possible?) because with top gone there won't be a deck playing a bunch of basics. Phyrexian revoker gets a little worse, because top was a BIG reason to have 3 of this guy main deck.. Thoughts?

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I think we'll have to wait and see tbh. There are a handful of decks we'll be happy to see have a resurgence such as S&T, storm, and SFM decks. On the other hand, I think we'll be seeing more lightning bolts being cast - which I've found to be absolutely abominable for this deck. Likewise with elves which should see an increase in play. Grixis delver will definitely be a DTB and I'd put that matchup at about 50/50.

I won't be dropping any revokers because of the ban. I'd wager that revoker will be even better in the new meta.

On another note, I switched from mox diamonds to lotus petals. I started by asking myself every time I drew a diamond if I'd rather have a petal and it was always yes. It's a huge difference, and it's made the deck so much more fluid. I found myself always regretting dropping a land to diamond, only to later miss a crucial land drop and subsequently feeding that damned elf shaman. Just ask yourself next time you draw a diamond - wouldn't you rather have a petal? I know it's a contentious topic, and I used to be on the other side of the fence, but I think playing 3 cities helps mitigate the "loss" of permanent mana diamond sometimes provided.

25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
5 Plains

11 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

24 Creature
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

SIDEBOARD
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Containment Priest
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Rest in Peace
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Blessed Alliance

One thing crossing my mind is now that Counterbalance is dead do we need Cavern of Souls? It's obviously still great versus Delver, but there are going to be a lot more Wastelands running around and this deck is particularly vulnerable to mana denial. If we cut the Caverns we can have 8-9 Plains or start running some number of Wastes (which also shores up Blood Moon).

I personally know that for all the times I've dropped an uncounterable threat vs Delver, I've had other matches where I was just wastelanded out of the game. More basics would also help vs D&T where Cavern basically is just a dual land.

I'm also considering adding Sanctum Prelate back to the mainboard. With no Miracles and less Decay Prelate on 1 should be as back-breaking as ever.

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Originally Posted by Kaono

One thing crossing my mind is now that Counterbalance is dead do we need Cavern of Souls? It's obviously still great versus Delver, but there are going to be a lot more Wastelands running around and this deck is particularly vulnerable to mana denial. If we cut the Caverns we can have 8-9 Plains or start running some number of Wastes (which also shores up Blood Moon).

I personally know that for all the times I've dropped an uncounterable threat vs Delver, I've had other matches where I was just wastelanded out of the game. More basics would also help vs D&T where Cavern basically is just a dual land.

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I like cavern because besides the old Miracles you will see enough other blue decks and you want humans+eldrazi stick, getting something important daze feels bad...

I may be the only one but Pontiff gets really better now (Elves/TNN/more fast Combo: Goblintoken) and Cavern works good to splash it. I currently run 6 Plains and 3 Moxes so even Blood Moon isn't so good vs this deck.

I tinker around with Mindcensor and C.Priest Main - aiming against Elves&Meta Shift :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Kaono

One thing crossing my mind is now that Counterbalance is dead do we need Cavern of Souls?

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I wouldn't interpret the banning of SDT as a decrease in decks with permission. I'd even say we'll be seeing more daze in the days to come. Don't forget that FOW accounts for 4 of the 12 cards that we can all agree define legacy.

Note my suggestion was just as much predicated on an increase in Wasteland as it was a decrease in softlocks like counterbalance.

I'm not saying permission is dead. I'm saying there's going to be more wastelands out there, which I have lost to just as much as counterspells.

Given all the mana acceleration in this deck I have never had aproblem playing around Daze. If my opp. wants to 2-1 themselves with Force I'm also fine with that.

edit: Thraben University/D&T players are also considering cutting Cavern -- to quote:

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I’m not actually sure that Cavern of Souls is good anymore; trading creatures one for one with counterspells is fine, it was just the fear of getting locked out by a Counterbalance that pushed players to try two or three copies of the card. If I were to play mono-white, I’d try other lands in this slot for a little while. Horizon Canopy, Mishra’s Factory,
and Ghost Quarter all seem like reasonable inclusions. Cavern sort of functions as a dual land with upside in the splash builds, so it might still be fine there.

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Originally Posted by Kaono

Note my suggestion was just as much predicated on an increase in Wasteland as it was a decrease in softlocks like counterbalance.

I'm not saying permission is dead. I'm saying there's going to be more wastelands out there, which I have lost to just as much as counterspells.

Given all the mana acceleration in this deck I have never had aproblem playing around Daze. If my opp. wants to 2-1 themselves with Force I'm also fine with that.

edit: Thraben University/D&T players are also considering cutting Cavern -- to quote:

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Cavern is much different in our deck than in DnT. They have vial to combat counters and more threats than we do. Trading '2-1' a la FOW is not a winning proposition for us and while our mana ramp often allows us to play around daze by say - playing a sfm off a tomb and plain as opposed to that 3 drop, it's obviously just much better to power out that 3 drop with a cavern.

I personally don't think there will be more land hate than usual... lots of people will be playing super greedy land bases. Also we have mega game against all the bloodmoon decks (see big red, painter)

If I do make any changes it'll be -1 city +1 wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
5 Plains

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Originally Posted by Kaono

One thing crossing my mind is now that Counterbalance is dead do we need Cavern of Souls? It's obviously still great versus Delver, but there are going to be a lot more Wastelands running around and this deck is particularly vulnerable to mana denial. If we cut the Caverns we can have 8-9 Plains or start running some number of Wastes (which also shores up Blood Moon).

I personally know that for all the times I've dropped an uncounterable threat vs Delver, I've had other matches where I was just wastelanded out of the game. More basics would also help vs D&T where Cavern basically is just a dual land.

I'm also considering adding Sanctum Prelate back to the mainboard. With no Miracles and less Decay Prelate on 1 should be as back-breaking as ever.

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Having more basics doesn't help as much versus Wasteland as you might think. Our "fair game", where we don't cast TKS until turn 4 or whatever, is not even remotely powerful enough for Legacy. That means two things:

1) Any decent player isn't going to blow an early Wasteland on a non-Sol land.
2) We need to run out our Sol lands early almost always, even if it means that we aren't playing around Wasteland.

Cutting Caverns for basics therefore doesn't really improve your resiliency against Wasteland while making you softer to things like Daze and increasing how often you get mana screwed since Cavern often needs to tap for both W and C.

Thalia Stompy has more game against mana denial compared to Colorless Eldrazi because it has more impactful things like the two Thalias that it can cast off of 1-2 lands + possibly a Mox. If you are truly afraid of Wasteland, I think you ought to play a lower curve filled with easy to cast, cheap Humans or cheap colorless cards like Copter, not really-hard-to-cast cards like Prelate.

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Originally Posted by iostream

Having more basics doesn't help as much versus Wasteland as you might think. Our "fair game", where we don't cast TKS until turn 4 or whatever, is not even remotely powerful enough for Legacy. That means two things:

1) Any decent player isn't going to blow an early Wasteland on a non-Sol land.
2) We need to run out our Sol lands early almost always, even if it means that we aren't playing around Wasteland.

Cutting Caverns for basics therefore doesn't really improve your resiliency against Wasteland while making you softer to things like Daze and increasing how often you get mana screwed since Cavern often needs to tap for both W and C.

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I've opened multiple hands with cavern, sol land and 3 drop where my opponent has wasted the sol land or cavern as their opening play leaving me mana screwed off of either a color or fast mana. Leading basic plains into sol land has been a very common play of mine.

Maybe it's just my playstyle, but I heavily prefer going basic, basic, small threat, sol land, big threat -- using mox diamond to speed up that line when possible. Maybe it's just my luck, but when I run out a sol land t1 my opponent wastelands it and my large threats get stranded.

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Thalia Stompy has more game against mana denial compared to Colorless Eldrazi because it has more impactful things like the two Thalias that it can cast off of 1-2 lands + possibly a Mox. If you are truly afraid of Wasteland, I think you ought to play a lower curve filled with easy to cast, cheap Humans or cheap colorless cards like Copter, not really-hard-to-cast cards like Prelate.

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I play all the above, and prelate is really not that hard to cast. Regardless, getting stuck on 2-3 lands while TKS and Smasher sit in your hand is not fun.

Anyway, seems you all disagree with me so I won't belabor the point further. I'll test it out and let you know how it goes.

@Kaono
I think playing more plains could be a great idea. I'd say something like the base below could work and would even support a few council's judgements out the side.

25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
2 City of Traitors
8 Snow-Covered Plains

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Originally Posted by contra

@Kaono
I think playing more plains could be a great idea. I'd say something like the base below could work and would even support a few council's judgements out the side.

25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
2 City of Traitors
8 Snow-Covered Plains

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I could get behind something like this


4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
2 City of Traitors
2 cavern of souls
7 plains

cavern is just too good.

Just getting back into legacy again. Had this deck put aside. Why did Palace Jailers drop off lists? Wouldn't he be better now with the suggested heavier basic land count?

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Originally Posted by darkgh0st

Just getting back into legacy again. Had this deck put aside. Why did Palace Jailers drop off lists? Wouldn't he be better now with the suggested heavier basic land count?

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Jailer is good, but there are too many true names romping around these days. We're also not increasing the number of white sources for white human creatures by changing caverns for plains.

With the new meta (or for the moment "chaos") we might see a lot of new decks crawling around and fight for the empty throne. Elves, Show&Tell, ANT&Co, Blade Decks, Delver, Lands mixed with the current stuff of DnT and all the BUG decks.

Good news? More Combo is nice for us, but more Lands and Blade (TNN!) isn't so hot and we'll see a lot of random stuff and fair midrange/creature decks (which can be hard for stompy because you can't lock them out easily).

I currently play without SfM (while it is okay vs fair decks its super slow etc.) and brewed around a lot. I currently really like Containment Priest at Main (S&S, Elves, Vial, GW-Zenith etc.) and Mindcensor (Elves, ANT, Manadenial, SfM) and "Flash" is very good because we have now only Sorcery speed Sweepers.

I am unsure with one or two slots at main/side for the current "chaos meta". I want to discuss them or at least a new spot light after SDT-Ban.

Palace Jailer - i loved him at the past, but overall he isn't hot against swarm creature decks, grixis delver or TNN. Some of you already dismissed him and i am sadly unsure about him at main/side. 2WW can also sometimes be bad. Drawing cards is nice but you can fall behind if used wrong (see decks above).

Phyrexian Metamorph - Can copy all the spicy stuff from our Smasher/TKS over targets from Opponent range from BSkull, to Gofy, Big Cheat Fatties till TNN - but is dead on an empty field or if you only can copy thalia. CC"3" colorless is also a nice deal - and can be blinked with Displacer for other targets.

Smuggler's Copter - some like him, but we will see more Artifact Removal (Blade Decks), more Delver/Bolt (only 1:1 trades) and its a bad topdeck in most cases. What is good is that it survives sorcery sweepers and is cc2 colorless so you can nearly cast it every time.

Crucible of Worlds - lines up well with Wastelands, City, Mox, Tax&Manadenial with our Thalia(s) and every Opponent that tries to trow Wastelands at you (rise of delver/land decks?). But can't beat your opponent and might be a useless card in hand or is cc4 under thalia 1.0.

and finally a freak card like Selfless Squire: More or less usless alone (see other cards above) but a real killer if you are behind. Works well against any Swarm (more Empty-Combo-Token around without Terminus), any alpha-Strike, any big beater till (UR)Burn and is a perma-Fog with Displacer. As a 3W-Human is also really perfect manawise and nobody will have it on his radar and as i said above flash is huge too.

Feel free to discuss it :)

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Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

With the new meta (or for the moment "chaos") we might see a lot of new decks crawling around and fight for the empty throne. Elves, Show&Tell, ANT&Co, Blade Decks, Delver, Lands mixed with the current stuff of DnT and all the BUG decks.

Good news? More Combo is nice for us, but more Lands and Blade (TNN!) isn't so hot and we'll see a lot of random stuff and fair midrange/creature decks (which can be hard for stompy because you can't lock them out easily).

I currently play without SfM (while it is okay vs fair decks its super slow etc.) and brewed around a lot. I currently really like Containment Priest at Main (S&S, Elves, Vial, GW-Zenith etc.) and Mindcensor (Elves, ANT, Manadenial, SfM) and "Flash" is very good because we have now only Sorcery speed Sweepers.

I am unsure with one or two slots at main/side for the current "chaos meta". I want to discuss them or at least a new spot light after SDT-Ban.

Palace Jailer - i loved him at the past, but overall he isn't hot against swarm creature decks, grixis delver or TNN. Some of you already dismissed him and i am sadly unsure about him at main/side. 2WW can also sometimes be bad. Drawing cards is nice but you can fall behind if used wrong (see decks above).

Phyrexian Metamorph - Can copy all the spicy stuff from our Smasher/TKS over targets from Opponent range from BSkull, to Gofy, Big Cheat Fatties till TNN - but is dead on an empty field or if you only can copy thalia. CC"3" colorless is also a nice deal - and can be blinked with Displacer for other targets.

Smuggler's Copter - some like him, but we will see more Artifact Removal (Blade Decks), more Delver/Bolt (only 1:1 trades) and its a bad topdeck in most cases. What is good is that it survives sorcery sweepers and is cc2 colorless so you can nearly cast it every time.

Crucible of Worlds - lines up well with Wastelands, City, Mox, Tax&Manadenial with our Thalia(s) and every Opponent that tries to trow Wastelands at you (rise of delver/land decks?). But can't beat your opponent and might be a useless card in hand or is cc4 under thalia 1.0.

and finally a freak card like Selfless Squire: More or less usless alone (see other cards above) but a real killer if you are behind. Works well against any Swarm (more Empty-Combo-Token around without Terminus), any alpha-Strike, any big beater till (UR)Burn and is a perma-Fog with Displacer. As a 3W-Human is also really perfect manawise and nobody will have it on his radar and as i said above flash is huge too.

Feel free to discuss it :)

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I have always felt pretty confident against lands .Ive found the matchup pretty easy between Displacer, Thalia 2.0,Karakas and chalice they almost always get the job done. Am i wrong or am i doing something differently?

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Originally Posted by metronome2charisma

I have always felt pretty confident against lands .Ive found the matchup pretty easy between Displacer, Thalia 2.0,Karakas and chalice they almost always get the job done. Am i wrong or am i doing something differently?

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I not talked only about the land matchup and overall you are right we have solid solutions against any land.deck and my score against various land decks are positive - but still be carefull lands can also have very broken starts that will crush us (and in this case, neither solution discussed above will really help).

I wished for some brainstorm/feedback for the cards i mentioned - some are discussed here (long ago) but the deck a) changed a lot of stuff (in the early days we had lodestone golem) and b) the miracle/topless meta game is a wild new place and i try to find the last piece of the puzzle (as i mentioned, i currently have C.Priest and Mindcensor MD for various rising decks).

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Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

With the new meta (or for the moment "chaos") we might see a lot of new decks crawling around and fight for the empty throne. Elves, Show&Tell, ANT&Co, Blade Decks, Delver, Lands mixed with the current stuff of DnT and all the BUG decks.

Good news? More Combo is nice for us, but more Lands and Blade (TNN!) isn't so hot and we'll see a lot of random stuff and fair midrange/creature decks (which can be hard for stompy because you can't lock them out easily).

I currently play without SfM (while it is okay vs fair decks its super slow etc.) and brewed around a lot. I currently really like Containment Priest at Main (S&S, Elves, Vial, GW-Zenith etc.) and Mindcensor (Elves, ANT, Manadenial, SfM) and "Flash" is very good because we have now only Sorcery speed Sweepers.

I am unsure with one or two slots at main/side for the current "chaos meta". I want to discuss them or at least a new spot light after SDT-Ban.

Palace Jailer - i loved him at the past, but overall he isn't hot against swarm creature decks, grixis delver or TNN. Some of you already dismissed him and i am sadly unsure about him at main/side. 2WW can also sometimes be bad. Drawing cards is nice but you can fall behind if used wrong (see decks above).

Phyrexian Metamorph - Can copy all the spicy stuff from our Smasher/TKS over targets from Opponent range from BSkull, to Gofy, Big Cheat Fatties till TNN - but is dead on an empty field or if you only can copy thalia. CC"3" colorless is also a nice deal - and can be blinked with Displacer for other targets.

Smuggler's Copter - some like him, but we will see more Artifact Removal (Blade Decks), more Delver/Bolt (only 1:1 trades) and its a bad topdeck in most cases. What is good is that it survives sorcery sweepers and is cc2 colorless so you can nearly cast it every time.

Crucible of Worlds - lines up well with Wastelands, City, Mox, Tax&Manadenial with our Thalia(s) and every Opponent that tries to trow Wastelands at you (rise of delver/land decks?). But can't beat your opponent and might be a useless card in hand or is cc4 under thalia 1.0.

and finally a freak card like Selfless Squire: More or less usless alone (see other cards above) but a real killer if you are behind. Works well against any Swarm (more Empty-Combo-Token around without Terminus), any alpha-Strike, any big beater till (UR)Burn and is a perma-Fog with Displacer. As a 3W-Human is also really perfect manawise and nobody will have it on his radar and as i said above flash is huge too.

Feel free to discuss it :)

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All those cards are good and i would play them all in certain builds as far as copter goes the card has been great. Not a fan of jailer with the rise in bug decks that will probably be going around,i'm currently playing mind censor as a 1 of and liking it. Crucible of worlds is a great card but i think with an expected meta shift towards more creature centric beatdown/ tempo decks and combo its not the place i wanna be right now as it isn't really impactful right away. I think if delver , bug and elves get more popular something like 3 holy light out of the side board may be the move .

On another note i think blood moon gets WAY better and will start to see a lot more sb action. (As if we don't see the card all the time anyway.)

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Originally Posted by Kaono

edit: Thraben University/D&T players are also considering cutting Cavern

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That was something that was said, yes. No, we are not dropping Cavern. UWx Stoneforge lists are popping up, Delver is everywhere, and various SnS lists also. Cavern isn't going anywhere as far as DnT goes.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

So why are the lists I'm seeing not running any Ballistas? I've seen several people ask on the thread, but I've never seen an answer.

It's good enough for the Vintage variant, so why wouldn't it be good enough for Legacy?

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Originally Posted by Barook

So why are the lists I'm seeing not running any Ballistas? I've seen several people ask on the thread, but I've never seen an answer.

It's good enough for the Vintage variant, so why wouldn't it be good enough for Legacy?

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Hey Barook! nice to see you in this thread! I think the main reason we haven't seen a lot of Ballista running around in this deck is because the list is VERY tight as is. I can't really speak for anyone else's list but my list in particular (which i've done VERY well with ) doesn't really need them. In the new meta where top isn't a thing anymore and creatures are a bigger deal maybe the revokers come out for ballistas but before the banning there just wasn't a good reason to run it.

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Originally Posted by metronome2charisma

Hey Barook! nice to see you in this thread! I think the main reason we haven't seen a lot of Ballista running around in this deck is because the list is VERY tight as is. I can't really speak for anyone else's list but my list in particular (which i've done VERY well with ) doesn't really need them. In the new meta where top isn't a thing anymore and creatures are a bigger deal maybe the revokers come out for ballistas but before the banning there just wasn't a good reason to run it.

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With Miracles gone, I definitely want to go back to play Legacy, but I can't decide what deck to use. I'm leaning towards a Stompy list with white for Karakas/Displacer (which should be good in the new meta), so it's between White Eldrazi and Thalia Stomply. The inability of White Eldrazi to deal with TNN worries me, though.

Ballista is definitely a card I want to try out since it gives you crowd control and reach. Since the deck runs SFM, I could easily see a Basilisk Collar slipping into the 75 for the creature instagib combo (bonus points for SFM getting around Chalice @1).

With Elves and TNN getting more relevance, shouldn't Holy Light be considered in the SB? This is probably the deck that could get the most mileage out of it due to fast mana.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Ballista is definitely a cardI want to try out since it gives you crowd control and reach. Since the deck runs SFM, I could easily see a Basilisk Collar slipping into the 75 for the creature instagib combo (bonus points for SFM getting around Chalice @1).

With Elves and TNN getting more relevance, shouldn't Holy Light be considered in the SB? This is probably the deck that could get the most mileage out of it due to fast mana.

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i could see running Ballista for sure.I don't run Stoneforge in my 75 but Basilisk Collar does seem good if you're running both SFM and Ballista .I had mentioned trying Holy Light in the board a page back. it seems great.
I think if i ran Ballistas i would probably cut the Copters and try it as a 2 of.
One last thing . Being a former Eldrazi player that consistently did well i can say that this deck is better right now (in paper .in the NE of the us)

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Originally Posted by metronome2charisma

i could see running Ballista for sure.I don't run Stoneforge in my 75 but Basilisk Collar does seem good if you're running both SFM and Ballista .I had mentioned trying Holy Light in the board a page back. it seems great.
I think if i ran Ballistas i would probably cut the Copters and try it as a 2 of.
One last thing . Being a former Eldrazi player that consistently did well i can say that this deck is better right now (in paper .in the NE of the us)

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Been goldfishing a bit and screwing around with the numbers. Ballista seems at least very good on paper. Collar would also enable lifegain much earlier than Batterskull, which could be a dealbreaker vs aggressive decks.

Edit: First strike and trample are also some bitching combinations with Collar's deathtouch. Either you instagib them in combat or you get super-trample where 1 point of damage is enough to finish off a creature. Alongside "instagib mode" Ballista, I do like the idea of Collar more and more. There's some serious potential there (as SFM target).

@played the following list at mkm frankfurt with a nice amount of 437 players and 10 rounds + top 8. I ended up disappointed at 85 place so not a very detailed report. My list was trimmed to catch most of the expected metagame that finally entered top 8 (ant, elves, sneak&show, br redanimator, stoneblade, grixis delver, food chain, aggro loam) - i clearly was prepared for combo and the top tables showed a lot of ant, elves and show&tell.

// 60 Maindeck

// 10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Smuggler's Copter

// 25 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Containment Priest
2 Aven Mindcensor

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
6 Plains
3 Wasteland

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 Palace Jailer
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance
SB: 2 Disenchant

I faced the following matchups:

R1 vs UR Delver 2:0 (G1 key was Chalice and overrun TNN-Wall)
R2 vs Loam/Rock Brew 1:2 (slightly missplay G3 but also very unlucky to find no karakas/plains/mox in 2 rounds and die to marit with blessed alliance in hand..)
R3 vs RG Lands 0:2 (G1 i made a missplay which cost me the game and G2 he locked me out of the game fast enough)
R4 vs Elves 2:0 (G1 Chalice, C.Priest, Thalia HC all the good stuff, G2 was harder but i finally hit the nail with Pontiff and enough lockpieces around)
R5 vs Burn 2:1 (not an easy matchup because they can also be blazing fast but overall if you are able to get enough hate on the field it works)
R6 vs RG Lands 2:1 (beatable but very annoying matchup, mindcensor, thalia HC etc worked well, also Revoker against Mox if they have multiple "useless" lands like maze/tabernacle)
R7 vs Bgr Loam Pox 2:0 (G1 first time copter was really good because he survives every sorcery sweeper and allowed constant pressure)
R8 vs Burn 2:1 (as i mentioned before - not so easy and important to find the right mix of lockpieces and creatures)
R9 vs Grixis Delver 0:2 (wasn't aggressiv enough against him G1 which finally result into loss.. G2 mulligan 5 and unable to cast pontiff)
R10 vs ANT 1:2 (finally combo but he not only was experienced with this matchup thanks to his teammate he also managed to get 2x Turn 1 kills which i can't beat without mindbreak trap stuff...)

Notes:
-Overall i was not happy with my matchups and the fact that every slightly mistake immediately result into a painful defeat
-Core cards overall worked fine, i was happy with Thalia HC (super strong against lands/elves etc.) and also the 4 flash creatures worked fine
-still not sold about copter and 1 copy simply wasn't enough for a test but i had at least one great game with the little vehicle
-after one year of games with pontiff i finally found a game which i was unable to cast him (Grixis) to swing the game into my favour
-i think i will go back to 2 copies of stoneforge and 1 batterskull at my 75 cards, because even if you are build a list against the meta you will face a lot of random (fair) matchups and sometimes need a backup plan or some more cards with impact.
-if you look at top8 decks, only food chain is really hard, stoneblade is okay if you have enough stuff against TNN (flying/evasion/removal)

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@Walking Ballista: i don't like it, because as metronome2charisma mentioned deck space is very tight - it basically comes down to: do you want stoneforge, copters, c.priest, jailer etc. main to get the 2-3 slots. I don't like Ballista because it will only be good at 2+ counters and it not improves the matchups against any combo deck or roadblocks like TNN. It can shine against Elves and DnT but my score against both decks are still good enough. I also dislike that it can't combo with Displacer (C.Priest/Jailer) and artifact hate is live against us and ballista also get catched from E.Explosives (clear the field of chalice/mox already).

@Basilisk Collar: this is a card i like more, especially with Stoneforge and as barook mentioned its nice with a lot of first strike + trample beaters and will help to race against aggressive decks. Search/Play/Equip/Attack is also faster compared to Batterskull.

@Selfless Squire: had a lot of discussion before the tournament about this card, but finally i had not the balls to smash the card into my pile of cards but i still think it is clearly underrated and can swing games around in our favour.

@Meta-Game: Even if i missed a good tournament run i think the deck should be strong enough for the upcoming meta game (even stronger at "combo"MTGO)

To comment on Ballista, this is something I've been testing myself, but I haven't gone to any big tournaments yet, so I've been reluctant to say too much. But since we're all talking about it...

From my testing, it seems to play really well and makes many creature-based matchups much easier. Being able to pick off x/1's, most notably Baleful Strix, Young Pyromancer, and Wirewood Symbiote, is really useful - this is what we dreamed Warping Wail could do, but now our removal spell can crack back! It also is a way to randomly win if your opponent manages to stabilize at low life, which can happen with these sorts of decks. Finally, it also makes the builds featuring 3 City of Traitors look better, since it's another good thing to do with your mana - i.e. flood insurance.

Addressing concerns about Ballista:

1) Deck space is not tight at all; I really don't understand this point. I agree with Tragos's assessment in this interview that there's really only maybe 47 core cards, so there's plenty of space to mess around.
2) I understand it's not good versus combo decks, but by and large, we already destroy most combo decks. When I've brought this to tournaments, I've always had the hardest time against fairer matchups, specifically the ones where either Chalice or 2-drop Thalia isn't very powerful (so D+T, controlling BUG decks of most varieties, and so on).
3) Artifact hate: as a Chalice deck, Disenchants will always be live against us, and I'd rather they Disenchant my Ballista than my Chalice. Engineered Explosives is horrible against us; if my opponent wants to spend a turn doing that instead of dealing with Reality Smasher or TKS or whatever, they can be my guest. Also, 2-drop Thalia usually turns off EE for 0.

Playing with Ballista makes me wonder whether or not we should just stop running all the filler tax bears, get back to our Stompy roots, and aggro out. I'm tired of Revoker and Containment Priest looking sad in front of some measly 2/1's or whatever.

An analogy: When OGW first came out and people were trying to figure out how Colorless Eldrazi ought to be built, there was a lot of stuff like Thorn of Amethyst and Phyrexian Revoker in maindecks that eventually ended up being cut or relegated to the sideboard since their utility was not worth the loss in aggressive potential. People figured out there were more percentage points to be gained in trying to just kill your opponent instead of trying to disrupt them even further. In this context, the real reasons to play white are the two Thalias and Displacer, specifically because they are unique disruptive effects which are also excellent in combat in the sense that they beat the most common creatures one-on-one. Every other white creature we are playing does not have this property. It's possible that those other creatures are just distractions - perhaps good sideboard material (e.g. Containment Priest), but bad maindeck material since they're so unlikely to make you kill your opponent any faster.

This line of reasoning suggests that we should reconsider some of the cards that have traditionally only seen play in Colorless Eldrazi - in particular, Endless One. Besides being a great beater that eats removal and provides further flood insurance, it's getting better positioned since the Fatal Push hype isn't as huge as it once was. It's true that we can't easily make it a 10/10 like Colorless can, or play multiples out through Eye of Ugin, but maybe it's still good enough as a 5/5 or a 6/6.

4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Endless One
3 Reality Smasher
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Walking Ballista

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
5 Plains
3 Wasteland

Sideboard

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant (or maybe Forsake the Worldly?)
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thorn of Amethyst

I don't know if playing the deck like this is just making it a "worse Colorless Eldrazi", but I want to find out since I think Displacer and both Thalias, by and large, are really good and fix a lot of the weaknesses that Colorless suffers from.

I just noticed @Rmosto last week quietly updated the sample decklist on the first page of the thread with the notable absence of displacer (see below)

I like the switch from lodestone to smasher, and I feel like if you're running with 3 cities maxing out on smasher makes sense.

@iostream
I've been having pretty abysmal results in the new meta where the premier deck we'd previously preyed on is gone and I do think Thalia stompy will need to adapt. However, I don't think endless one and ballista fit the bill.

Holy Light is a card I had previously wrote off because I <3 revoker, but revoker is the first thing to come out against BUG decks running TNN and also grixis where holy light really... shines. It's also a trump against elves. I think I'm going to try 2 holy lights and 1 blessed alliance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rmosto

Sample Decklist

Lands: 26

6 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland

Spells: 10

3 Mox Diamond
1 Warping Wail
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void

Creatures: 24

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

SB: 15

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Rest in Peace
3 Dismember
2 Warping Wail
2 Winter Orb


Rmosto

---

here's a concoction I threw together that I'll be testing:

// 60 Maindeck
// 10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mox Diamond

// 23 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Aven Mindcensor

// 2 Instant
2 Warping Wail

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
5 Plains


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst

// 5 Creature
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Selfless Squire
SB: 2 Sanctum Prelate

// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Rest in Peace

// 4 Instant
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Holy Light
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance

// 2 Land
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls

I was playing this deck before putting it away for a year and a half and just getting back into it now.

Peter Tragon's 27 core cards makes a lot of sense, but as the meta sped up with Miracles out, we also need to adapt.

- Going up to 4 Mox Diamond - From my testing, 3 was the right number pre-miracles. But as decks are now faster with miracles out of the picture, we also want to play faster. That 1st turn Thalia or Chalice followed by a Reality Smasher or Thought-Knot Seer advances our game so much.

- Going up to 4 Reality Smasher - because it closes out the game very fast

Creature (25)
2x Containment Priest
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x flex slots

Artifact (10)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Karakas
3x Plains
4x flex land slots


Other notes:

- 3 Thalia, Heretic Cathars - I'm reluctant on having the 4th one, unless it gets proven that 4 is the right number.

- Containment Priests - It is sad to have a 2cc 2/2 beater in non-relevant matchups, is live with Displacer (though slow). He is there for Elves, and maybe SnS and Reanimator.

- 2 Karakas - I'm looking to up these to 3 as the legendary rule doesn't seem to affect these much with the Mox Diamonds.

- No Stoneforge Mystics main - I considered these cards to be slow for what the deck wants to achieve. SFM - Batterskull is 2 turns before you can swing for (only) 4, with the lifegain being currently irrelevant. SFM - Jitte/Sword is likewise. It is possible that they should be slotted in the SB for grindy matchups.

- Phyrexian Revokers - I think they really should be in the sideboard, but can be slotted in the flex slots if meta calls for it.

- 4 flex slots, 4 flex land slots - These can be meta dependent and where you would consider if you want to splash another color, go deeper white, or have more utility lands (Wasteland, Mishra's Factory). I currently have Eldrazi Obligator and Battlefield Forge in test as another fast closer (but irrelevant on swarm decks. Trading this vs a Strix is an okay move as it makes way for TKS and Smasher, but feels bad anyways). These can also be Palace Jailers (which should be counted as removal, and I still prefer this even in a meta with TNNs), with more basic lands allowing you to gain access to more white cards. These can also be Lodestone Golems to shore up the Food Chain matchup, but clashes with Smasher.

- 2 Umezawa's Jitte - these feel extremely slow as it costs 4 (to 5) mana before you can use them and is easily negated by removal (to creature or Jitte). Maybe switching Walking Ballistas over these.

- What I like most about this deck is that it can win with two lands (one being a sol land).


Testing vs decks:

- I've tested a lot vs Grixis Delver, Elves, and Lands before putting this deck aside. The inclusion of Palace Jailer has helped me a lot vs Grixis Delver compared to not having it before. We're able to beat Elves and Lands comfortably with this deck.

- I've tested vs the MKM top 8 Food Chain list. Being disruptive and aggressive wins you a lot of games vs it. I prioritize being aggressive over Chalice @ 1 in this matchup since both Thalias can do quite the damage early game. But sometimes, they just win out of nowhere.

- I've also tested vs the Czech Pile and feel quite comfortable with that matchup. They don't have Daze, so you can comfortably name Eldrazi with the Cavern and leave the Thalias to be countered. Strix itself is fine and can be blinked to get damage through. Post-board can get harder as they have access to the Waste-Loam lock.

- Those are about what my meta consist of and I haven't tested against anything else.


The Sideboard is currently being tweaked.

I've been testing Ballista as a 3-of and have liked it so far.

Now that Miracles is gone, the premier card I played Warping Wail for (Terminus) is no more. It still snags the occasional Painful Truths/Hymn/Infernal Tutor, but I think our MU is fine vs those decks anyway so it's become a mediocre removal spell that occasionally makes a 1/1.

Ballista can be used as removal like WW (I've cast it for 2 to immediately snipe a YP multiple times already) but this deck hits 4 mana so easily and has problems with flooding that Ballista quickly takes over games.

I've also realized that Jitte might not necessarily be required in the deck anymore if we're running Ballista, and have trimmed my stoneforge package to only Basilisk Collar and Batterskull as an experiment. Jitte had problems getting stonewalled by Wirewood Symbiote or random stuff like Cavern Harpy which Ballista mows down with no problem.

I'm still testing Containment Priest mainboard too, so it's kind of redundant to have two mana sink creature kill combos in Priest/Displacer and Ballista/Collar but all the cards are useful on their own so I think there's some argument to having both.

Played at redcaps corner on wednesday went 3-0-1 and played at stomping grounds tonight 4-0 .
Played against
burn 2-1
burn 2-0
show and tell 2-1
i.d.
show and tell 2-1
lands 2-0
enchantress 2-1
u/r delver 2-1
Tried out walking ballista as a 1 of ,took out a revoker. It seemed good but i'm not sure if its something i think the deck needs or not but its certainly powerfull and could possibly make the cut for the main board and DEFINITELY in the board .
As far a replacing jitte with Ballista goes i don't think thats the direction i'll be taking simply because the Jitte life gain ability is very relevant ESPECIALLY in a deck playing ancient tombs . i can definitely see your logic but jitte is just so strong.
Tried out 2 holy light in the board tonight over 1 ratchet bomb and 1 blessed alliance. didn't cast them so i can't speak on the effectiveness.
As far as changing MY list goes i don't really see any major changes happening anytime soon . "If it aint broke don't fix it"

Edit: whoops

A friend of mine asked how important i thought Copter was to the deck and if he could replace it with Walking Ballista.
Copter is in the deck to help you get cards, as the deck doesn't have any real card advantage/ filter. (obviously) but the main advantages of copter(most of the time) was blocking a delver and avoiding sorcery speed removal .
Walking ballista serves an entirely different role but does it so well its hard to ignore. The reach he provides is great as well as the potential removal.I think as a 2 of its a fine card to play if you don't like copter. It does give you even more ways to deal with creature matches , such as delver,elves, eldrazi and DnT. IF i was to cut the copters for ballistas (which might be the right call for the new meta) i would go back up to 3 Revoker mb. (because i'm playing a Walking Ballista in place of 1 of them )

After some thought I think I'm gunna try a couple things out . Heres what i'm gunna test out when the last Walking Ballista comes in the mail.

10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 lotus petal
2 Umezawa's Jitte

26 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 containment priest
2 Walking Ballista
1 aven mindcensor

24 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
6 Plains
3 Wasteland

15 Sideboard

2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Faerie Macabre
2 rest in peace
2 Disenchant
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 blessed alliance
2 holy light
1 containment priest

Haven't been able to make it to redcaps lately - just been playing the following list online. It's a hybrid of white eldrazi and thalia stompy with eye of ugins and mimics. I've had more success with it than the standard list because it's more aggressive. Mimic facilitates broken eldrazi lines like mimic - tks - smasher. It's also an additional turn-1 play that can be cast off of the majority of the lands. The eye of ugins support 25% of the deck and can just be thrown to a diamond in some cases.

Copter is an auto-include at this point. Same with the full playset of smashers and 3 cities. Palace jailer has been the shit - 2 feels like the right number.

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
5 Plains
2 Eye of Ugin

// 25 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Eldrazi Mimic
2 Palace Jailer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

// 10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter

// 15 Sideboard
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Selfless Squire

@contra: While i like the idea of beeing more aggressiv and mimic itself can be good (played with different eldrazi shells lately and Eye Mimic into TKS/Smasher starts are still bonkers) i don't get it why you only include 3 Mimics - the card is only good at the start and a bad topdeck (one of the issues the deck already has with copters/mox/lands/copies of thalia/chalice etc.) so if Mimic than the Playset to get max. value of droping it Turn 1-2 and follow up with bigger Eldrazi. Playset Smasher seems right with Mimic and Eyes - its still a superior beater in many cases.

Sadly without Wastelands both Thalias will suffer a bit because you can't full abuse the manadenial idea and your opponent will be able to get out of the softlock more often. Last note on Copter - i get it that it can be good, but i think Jitte is still the beater deal. Both are cc2, both are useless alone, Jitte needs 2 mana for equip, copter needs a creature (that can't attack/block). Copter might be good if you can filter cards and fly over TNN but Jitte with First Strikers or Trample Creatures are still superior and each mode is needed - it is also removal, displacer and jailer are okay but 2 more cards that can interact with the field of your opponent are also good. Turn 1 drop into Turn 2 Jitte and Attack is also a huge step in the right direction against creature decks. Copter itself feels "okay" in most cases but i think it never feels "broken" enough.

I would run contras build with:

-1 Mox (3 seems solid enough even with a faster meta)
+1 Mimic
-2 Copter (as explained above - with 2 Jailers you also have cardadvantage)
+2 Jitte

Playset Mimic will be more aggressiv, Jitte is a backup card.

I like that you test the 1off Squire at Side - any stories about it?

@Walking Ballista: I currently try it at colorless eldrazi decks and i really like it over spot removal - but in a white shell with Swords/Displacer/Jailer/B.Alliance you simply have a very good removal suite (something colorless Eldrazi lacks) so it is hard to find slots for it - Maybe without the Mimic Idea the build above from Contra can run some Ballistas - but overall Ballista is more of a control card and less aggressiv and i like the idea to push this deck into a more aggressiv direction. Conclusion: I think Ballistas will perfom better in Colorless Eldrazi Shells because they will be better than removal stuff like Spatial Contortion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

I like that you test the 1off Squire at Side - any stories about it?

---

Squire is a fun-of for me. I've casted it twice - once into an attacking merit lage with lethal next turn. The other time was against DnT where they were attacking for lethal vs my empty board. It went farming for a single life and I died the next turn.

I'll prob run a revoker or maybe jitte in that slot since I won't be dropping copter. I mean jitte is 4, sometimes 5 mana to play/attach and even then doesn't do anything until you connect. Copter is cheaper, provides evasive damage, and on top of that card filtering. It's usually eating the decay/swords/bolt instead of the mimic which is just dandy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by contra

Haven't been able to make it to redcaps lately - just been playing the following list online. It's a hybrid of white eldrazi and thalia stompy with eye of ugins and mimics. I've had more success with it than the standard list because it's more aggressive. Mimic facilitates broken eldrazi lines like mimic - tks - smasher. It's also an additional turn-1 play that can be cast off of the majority of the lands. The eye of ugins support 25% of the deck and can just be thrown to a diamond in some cases.

Copter is an auto-include at this point. Same with the full playset of smashers and 3 cities. Palace jailer has been the shit - 2 feels like the right number.

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
5 Plains
2 Eye of Ugin

// 25 Creature
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Eldrazi Mimic
2 Palace Jailer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

// 10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter

// 15 Sideboard
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Selfless Squire

---

i tried something really similar back when i was on white eldrazi . i personally hated it but if you're having better luck with it than the standard build you should probably play the mimic version, although i do agree that the mimics should probably be a 4 instead of 3 if you're gunna go that route,maybe cut the 4th heretic cathar because with the addition of the eye of ugins it gets harder to cast and harder to turn 1. I think it really comes down to play style ..like i said before for the first 2 months of playing this deck i had awful results then since the beginning of march i'm 68-17 with 2 i.d. It took me forever to transition from eldrazi to this but once it clicked it clicked. My list isn't changing from the last time i posted it until i stop winning . Try to make it out to redcaps on Wednesday, we get about 15-20 every week.
3-1 last night . 71-18

I was able to take Thalia Stompy to my LGS FNM. I noticed that the locals playing Sneak and Show and Reanimator have switched out of them. There were 2 ANTs, 1 Belcher, 2 Burn, 1 Grixis Delver, 1 Lands, 1 Elves, and other fair decks. I switched in the Containment Priests from main to side with the Palace Jailers (2 for 2), and slotted in 3 Revokers and 1 Ballista for my flex slots. I am still working on my SB but brought this:

2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ratchet Bomb (I don't have Holy Lights - which costed me a game)
2 Disenchant
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Containment Priest
3 Faerie Macabre

R1 was vs Grixis Delver
I took G1 swiftly opening with a T1 Chalice into Thalia 2, Thalia 1.
I sided out the Moxes and brought in removal.
I lost G2 to a 2nd turn Null Rod into double Delver and TNN. I was stuck with a Jitte and Ratchet Bomb which should have been a Holy Light. The Holy Light would have been key here. I'll be making sure that I pick those up.
I lost G3 as I ran out of gas late game and drew consecutive lands, while he takes me quickly down from 14 with an Angler + Jitte.
0-1 (1-2)

R2 was vs ANT
I won the die roll and opened up with Thalia 1.0. He plays a Petal and I Revoke it next turn and beat him to death.
He didn't have the T1 on G1 so I unloaded Chalice at 0 and Thalia 1.0 T1 and TKS T2
1-1 (3-2)

R3 was vs Lands
He had the Manabond nuts G1 and that was it.
G2 was the textbook win of Thalia 1.0 into Thalia 2.0.
He took G3 late game while he was down to 1. I had both Thalias in play and drew 5 conscutive lands, while he slowly combos through.
1-2 (4-4)

R4 was some Jank combo deck, which we are mostly favored against and I won in two.
2-2 (6-4)


My Notes:
- The obvious Holy Lights to buy
- The 3rd Karakas is still a possibility, which might have helped vs Lands G1
- Try lowering Mox back to 3 as my meta becomes more fair decks
- Try out 2 to 3 Smuggler's Copter for filtering to better card selection late game, but card slots are tight...
- Try out a 4th Thalia 2.0 with the Copters in, again, slots are tight...
- I didn't see Ballista so I can't say how good it is

Brought my proposed list with some sideboard tweaks to a small 10-person tournament today. I went 4-0-1 and we split the top 4. I beat Bant Deathblade, RUG Delver, 4c Loam, and Mono-R Sneak Attack. I ID'd versus Grixis Delver, but we played a match for fun, which I lost. For reference:

4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Endless One
3 Reality Smasher
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Walking Ballista

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
5 Plains
3 Wasteland

Sideboard

1 Key to the City
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Rest in Peace

The general plan of just playing the best disruptive creatures and maximizing aggression was good. Flying without any Needle effects seemed a little scary at first, but I never ended up missing them.

Comments on random cards I was testing:

- Endless One was great all day. It is a way more impactful early play than a random Containment Priest in non-GY matchups or a Revoker without a particularly good name (DRS doesn't count!), and it ends up just being bigger than everything by the midgame. It turns out a random 4/4 or 5/5 on turn 2 or 3 just wins games for the same reason Goyf does. It was key in my match against mono-R Sneak Attack since you can deploy it under a Blood Moon for a reasonably high value of X to apply pressure while they're looking for a way to close out the game. Why did we ever cut this when we moved away from Colorless? 3 felt right since you can't really spit out multiples under Eye of Ugin like Colorless can, but you're always happy to see the first.

- Walking Ballista was really good at x=2 or bigger, but x=1 is not a very strong play a lot of the time. Killing Delver with an x=1 Ballista feels great, playing it blindly on x=1 does not, especially if your opponent responds with a DRS, since typically you want to something else with your mana on turn 2 rather than pump and kill. For these reasons, I think 4 is too many since seeing multiples in your opener kind of commits you to casting one for earlier than you'd like, but this is one of your absolute best late game topdecks. I think I will shave one of the four, but I don't know for what yet. I wonder if people's lack of enthusiasm for it is because it doesn't look impressive to get a 3/3 for 6 mana or whatever, but if you get to untap with it, you get to either (a) attack, pump, and fireball for 8+ damage on an empty board, or (b) use the pings to enable your first strikers to eat much larger creatures / force unfavorable trades with your little creatures. It also is a maindeckable way to wipe YP + tokens if you have to. The card is very strong!

- Smuggler's Copter is still great. I think people somewhat overestimate the looting ability and underestimate the inherent value of having an evasive beater. Obviously looting is nice, but being able to fly over a complicated board just helps your clock out so much. (There's also some utility in giving your creatures a weird sort of haste, but you obviously only get to enjoy that benefit when your draw is already coming together well.) For this reason, I've wondered if Heart of Kiran is better in this deck. Almost everything we play can crew it, 4 power eats Delver and Clique instead of just trading, and vigilance means you can both attack and block with it.

- I never drew Key, Forsake, or Canonist. But I want to point out Canonist specifically because if Elves and Storm are supposed to be the combo decks of choice nowadays, Canonist seems better than Thorn, especially given that we already have access to a maindeck Thorn effect in Thalia, Guardian of Thraben already.

- Blessed Alliance is really narrow and I kind of feel like it's a waste of space. Key is abstractly the more proactive way of dealing with TNN, but I have no idea if it's actually good yet. Holy Light seems so horrible. The problem is not TNN by itself, but TNN+equipment, especially Sword of Fire and Ice. The deck can go much wider than a 3/1!

I've been building off of Tragos' list. I prefer the Palace Jailer in general over Containment Priest. Both have huge synergy with Eldrazi Displacer.
Palace Jailer provides card advantage over time and is a great closer.

I like Blessed Alliance a lot. I don't think it's narrow at all. Essentially it's a white Diabolic Edict with more options.
It works against single big creatures like Griselbrand, TNN, Emrakul, Marit Lage, etc.
It's good against Burn, and it's good for creature combat tricks.

Armageddon is hilarious by the way. It always shows up when you side it in. Always ends the game if it's not countered.

What do you guys think?


// 60 Maindeck
// 11 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mox Diamond
2 Smuggler's Copter

// 24 Creature
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Palace Jailer

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
3 Wasteland
4 Plains
1 Eiganjo Castle

// 15 Sideboard
// 5 Creature
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Containment Priest

// 3 Enchantment
SB: 3 Rest in Peace

// 6 Instant
SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 3 Blessed Alliance

// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Armageddon

@TTX: Main looks okay but i would trim the lands for at least one more plains - you will still be able to win enough vs all the moon-stuff around. I would also never cut Cavern with 2 relevant creature types (one with W and WW) and with more and more delver around. At a stompy shell your threats must be able to pass counterwalls. Its fine to get Chalice countered because while Chalice is nice it will not beat your opponent to dead.

I dislike the Sideboard - no Swords to Plowshares (most creature decks, bg decks etc.), no thorn (burn, adds up nicely with thalia and important castable turn 1 even on the draw). Armageddon and Blessed Alliance etc. is okay.

@iostream: gz, solid run - i am more and more in love with walking ballista at big eldrazi/colorless eldrazi still had no time to test it here. I feel this deck has more than enough other relevant plays and can use its mana in other directions (displacer/wastelands etc.). But yeah this little dude is not bad against creature decks and can be a great topdeck if you have enough mana around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TTX

I like Blessed Alliance a lot. I don't think it's narrow at all. Essentially it's a white Diabolic Edict with more options.
It works against single big creatures like Griselbrand, TNN, Emrakul, Marit Lage, etc.
It's good against Burn, and it's good for creature combat tricks.

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I agree it's great versus TNN and Marit Lage, but this does nothing versus Griselbrand or Emrakul. If Griselbrand is in play, you've already lost. Even if they don't get a hit in, the 7-14 cards they get will end the game. As for Emrakul, you can only remove it after the annihilator trigger is put on the stack, which once again means you've lost. Burn is an extremely rare matchup. As for the third mode, I don't know what matchup would possibly make me want to side a card in just to make surprise blocks. I think if you add this all up, it's pretty fair to say that this is a narrow card. It is literally only good for dealing with two specific creatures.