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I am not that brave. If I'm playing blue, Brainstorm and Ponder are mandatory attendees to the party.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Edit: but, still rocking Moons in the SB. If you're playing 2 colors in Legacy and one of them is red, You might as well chuck some moons in there.
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/127390Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Nice run man, with some interesting new cards. Can we get a report? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the deck and the meta right now
Yeah man good job on the run! Ugh I wanna build painter so bad but I can't afford the city of traitors. I wonder if I could just run crystal vein temporarily and hate my life...
Thanks guys - always a pleasure Painting it up. I'll try and get a report up, things are just really busy with work and the family. I was in a strong position to make Top 8, then I just hit a stroke of bad luck in successive rounds that was tough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
I'll update you guys ASAP.
OMG I can't wait. Your list is full of so much spice; I love it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Light up the stage is for reals. I'm honestly surprised people haven't been talking more about this card (including myself). I'm really curious what you thought about that card in particular.
I totally agree with the general sentiment... Nice spice!
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
So after 15 rounds of Magic with Imperial Painter at #SCGNY, I wound up in 52nd place - good for Top 64 (out of 656). I can't remember all of my match-ups and their results, but I'll provide some notes based on the list I played and changes I would recommend going forward.
For reference, here is the list I piloted:
//Main
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Painter's Servant
1 Spellskite
3 Goblin Welder
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Manic Vandal
1 Great Furnace
4 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
4 Lotus Petal
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Blood Moon
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Light Up the Stage
//Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Containment Priest
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Blood Moon
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Lava Dart
3 Fiery Confluence
Here were the key takeaways from the event:
Light up the Stage is the Real Deal
Over the course of the entire event, I found myself really always wanting to draw into this card. It's straight-up card advantage, and with so many small creatures that can easily connect for a point here and a point there - combined with reactive fetches and Forces - casting it for its Spectacle cost was rarely an issue. I think there were only two or three times throughout the entire event I hard-cast it empty handed, but when I did cast it no matter what, it was incredible. I do think three is probably right, but I can even see four going forward.
Magus of the Moon Returning to the Main
One of the biggest things I anticipated for this event was hitting a load of Chalice decks like Eldrazi or Dark Depths combo decks like Turbo or Slow Depths. Blood Moon in Shortcake has been an option that has dwindled in value in recent months, but I think this needs to be reconsidered. I was always hoping to slam an early Blood Moon in a majority of my match-ups, and Magus actually was instrumental just like its Enchantment counterpart in winning a few rounds against Eldrazi and U/W Delver-Blade. Magus was also added to bolster combat damage to support Stage, and I think his stock has risen slightly because of this.
Lava Dart...!?
Most of the other sideboard cards are fairly straight-forward. This was a card I was looking hard at for a long time, and read some very interesting feedback on folks deep in other forums, articles and other resources to get their opinions on it. As it turns out after testing it, I was very surprised how good it wound up being. Most fast aggro decks looking to get ahead early had a hard time dealing with the card, because it just iced their hot start. I was able to off multiple T1 Delvers, and made it so that they became even worse in the mid to late game because of its flashback ability. But the real power of the card shone with Light up the Stage. I was able to throw a Mountain into the graveyard later in the game to cash in on the Spectacle cost and win a few games because of that. One great moment was an opponent on Depths casting Crop Rotation with two Hexmage out. I cast Dart in response killing one, and then flashed it back killing the other - a real blowout. It also really helped not needing to waste a Blast on a Delver early and save it for stack interaction or paired with Painter, in addition to being incidentally good when you're grinding yourself with Welder in play looking for another combo piece or that last bit of damage. It's also beyond incredible against Infect, where you just keep getting key value off of its flashback ability. Will I play it going forward? I'm not entirely sure, but so far I'm very impressed by it. It kind of/sort of filled a similar role that cards like Firebolt did in Painter sideboards - except I think this is just better right now.
Dealing with Turbo Depths
This is a very important issue with Painter going forward. I understand Shortcake cuts back on the Moon effects and emphasizes the use of Enlightened Tutor, but this is something to reevaluate. I'm aware of the rule change with Moon and Depths, but the truth is it screws with their mana base early enough where you can hold them off to find other utility or the win. Enlightened Tutor for all its power is a liability post-board where Surgical Extraction is a real threat. I just think to beat Depths and stomp it out, I can see options in the main and sideboard including cards like Pithing Needle, singleton Ghost Quarter (which finds you Plains if you run it before casting a Moon effect), singleton Karakas, Surgical Extraction and at least three Welders to protect Ensnaring Bridge in the wake of Decay/Trophy effects.
Speaking of protection...
Hanna's Custody
This is a card I've looked really hard in recent weeks, and was so close to running it at SCGNY. Boy, I wish I had. This card - while innocuous - is arguably one of the best cards I can see Painter using in the future. Once this card lands against control decks, it becomes incredibly difficult for them to interact with you, and shuts off so many draws they rely on to stop Painter from winning unimpeded. I know for a fact had I had this card deeper into Day 2 - I would have easily rode to the Top 8. It's a must-counter, otherwise you just do whatever you want. I do think that Custody - in conjunction with fast, early hate like Needle and Moon effects - shut the door on Depths for a long time, in addition shutting down interaction from other decks that would try to shut down the combo during the game. Goblin Welder (and to a lesser extent Spellskite) fills the role of this at times, but casting one card that immediately and always blanks answers to your cards and offers optimal protection is something to seriously consider - especially against control decks packing loads of removal. I just wish I had this in those match-ups where the wins were on the table.
Zuran Orb
Zuran Orb never really saw play much throughout the event, and will almost certainly be replaced with something that offers better protection and is more difficult to deal with. I've entertained cards like Circle of Protection: Red to help with the Burn match-up, notably because it's an enchantment that can't be Smashed (to Smithereens). Burn players can surely play around the card, and there might be better options for that match-up. Blessed Alliance may be something to look at, as it also helps in the Depths MU.
Crew up the Copter
I wasn't a big fan of Smuggler's Copter at all during the event. It felt like it was cool to crew it up and use it when I could and grab some filter, but there were times where it just sat there and did nothing - which was awful. The card filter can probably be mitigated by the superiority of Light of the Stage - but I'm not sure. They can certainly coexist in the deck, the issue is that I really didn't like just having it play sitting there which happened a few times during the event.
Fiery Confluence
This card was good throughout the event and played a nice sideboard control element when it popped up. It made the deck feel a little more like Mono Red Stompy, which uses this to full effect. The ability to cancel out troublesome artifacts like Needle and Chalice, while offering pretty good board wipe utility was really comforting. There were a couple of times it was a blowout, but I just don't know if its better than other instant-speed answers. I chose Vandal in the main over Heretic because you don't have to wait a turn to activate it, and it at least reactivates cards in your hand. I'm still trying to figure out if Vandal is optimal main and if these are optimal in the board. They also enable Stage's Spectacle cost, at a minimum.
Revoker vs. Needle
After fifteen rounds of Magic and playing against Storm and Depths multiple times, I think the Canonists main (and perhaps one in the board) with two Needles are probably better than the Revokers. The problem with Revoker is that it doesn't hit Stage like Needle would and is a bit more fragile. I think its ability to hit LED is nice, but I mean, if we're running multiple Canonists between the main and side, is that really necessary? Needle would have been so good - I wish I had it in the deck this past weekend.
Grim Lavamancer
This was great in the main, and I will probably run another out of the board for utility. Being able to connect early is great with Stage and puts Delver and fast aggro on the backpedal in a hurry, which I like. It also hunts down Safekeeper in the Depths MU and ices Bobs along with it. This card, along with Lava Dart and Goblin Welder, make it so that the perfunctory Grindstone activation for value can be used on yourself to enable these shenanigans, but one must also be leery of Surgical Extraction. Regardless, he was - as usual - great in most scenarios.
I think I need to sleep on a new deck list until I saturate the changes after the long drive home. No matter what, I had a great time playing and the deck felt pretty good overall.
Thank you for this write up! Lots to think about. You've inspired me to get back on the painter horse. Questions about the list:
Are the 2x macabre's & crypt enough graveyard hate? Do you think it makes sense to swap the Spellskite for Hanna's Custody?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire
My assumption is that you'd need to do some tricksy-footwork:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire
shuffle trigger on the stack, weld in another grindstone, grind to the next emrakul, then macabre the two, let the shuffle trigger resolve.
then go off again.. possibly (this is the solidarity player in me coming out, i think).
or maybe recruiter into containment priest against sneak and snow, show and tell.
I wouldn't swap out spellskite for hanna's custody. the target magnet seems good, and is recruitable. And speaking of which, hannas custody gives all artefacts shroud (basically). shuts off our welders too. Might be worth running a one-of daretti scrap savant as a non-targeting welder. Or it might be worth looking at leonin abunas. it costs 3w (one more), and doesn't shut off welders. it's also 2/4, so its recruitable and bolt-proof.
Leonin Abunas is 2/5 even, and it interacts much more favourably with Goblin Welder than Hanna's Custody. It's rather hard to tell which one to try, but I do feel intrigued by both options!Quote:
Originally Posted by schweinefettmann
@Michael Keller:
Can you comment on choosing Manic Vandal over Goblin Cratermaker? Because I count got many items in favor of Cratermaker and only 1 in favor of Vandal.
Did you miss Engineered Explosives?
I don't like Cratermaker because it has anti-synergy with Painter in play. Chalice becomes a colored permanent, and cannot be targeted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
Not a whole lot. I actually think Ratchet Bomb is probably better because you can get it above two counters (because you're only playing three colors - if you don't count Lotus Petal which is a stretch), and the initial investment to hit a Chalice is the same: two mana. It may also be better in theory because a Chalice on zero (for whatever reason) could potentially lock you out from hitting it with an EE.Quote:
Did you miss Engineered Explosives?
Hannah's Custody is tutorable, too; you're playing Enlightened Tutor. Shutting off Welder is the least of your worries at the expense of never having to worry about cards like Terminus taking over the game, and once a Painter resolves all your worries go away. With no additional investment (i.e. loss of life from Spellskite, activating Welder after waiting a turn, etc.), it just shuts off cards that give Painter trouble. It's absolutely not win-more; there are good and bad match-ups for the deck and the purpose of the card is to shore up those MUs without needing to worry about crap like Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Kolaghan's Command, Abrupt Decay and Assassin's Trophy.Quote:
Originally Posted by schweinefettmann
Keep in mind you'd still play Welder if you have Custody in play - it forces an opponent to deal with one first and then the other, and the damage is relevant to enable Light up the Stage. There's also a very good chance you won't have Welder and Custody in play at the same time, because Welder does - in most instances - die to removal before it goes active or takes over a game. Custody is much, much harder to deal with.
@ Michael Keller:
What's the plan against Miracles and Grixis Control? LutS, Blood Moon, Revoker/Pithing Needle all help to varying degrees but none are slam dunks (well, a Blood Moon effect against Grixis will steal a single game but rarely a second game). Without having Planeswalkers in your 75 to provide card advantage (and an alternate wincon), how do you beat control decks?
Miracles is what it is and what it always has been, but this is where I think playing Hanna's Custody is good. Terminus and Swords-Snap-Swords is annoying. Painter plays a myriad of Blasts, sure, the idea is to shut down that removal and force the opponent to use Terminus as the only answer to a resolved Painter - or - destroy Custody and then worry about Painter and friends. Miracles has always been kind of a stagnant match-up, because you can play the control role in a bunch of different ways - right down to naturally Grinding an opponent out for the win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
I think the match-up is intrinsically difficult no matter what (G.C.). But if you run a card that - for lack of a better term - stops their shit from breaking yours, then you'll be fine. All of these decks rely on Snapcaster for repeated value. If you shut down their main avenue of attack by nullifying hate with Welder or Custody, I think you'll be fine.Quote:
and Grixis Control? LutS, Blood Moon, Revoker/Pithing Needle all help to varying degrees but none are slam dunks (well, a Blood Moon effect against Grixis will steal a single game but rarely a second game). Without having Planeswalkers in your 75 to provide card advantage (and an alternate wincon), how do you beat control decks?
I played against Grixis Control in Round 12 of the Open. My opponent and I got into a top-deck war, and he wound up getting there. I just know that, at some point had I resolved something he couldn't deal with like H.C., he would have almost certainly lost. Grixis Control only really has a handful of counterspells - balanced with removal and discard. If you nullify the removal, it makes it so that it becomes extremely difficult for the G.C. player to interact with you.
That being said, here is something similar that I would test going forward:
//Main
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Manic Vandal
4 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Great Furnace
4 Grindstone
4 Lotus Petal
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Moon
1 Hanna's Custody
4 Pyroblast
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Light Up the Stage
//Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Lava Dart
2 Fiery Confluence
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Containment Priest
1 Blood Moon
1 Hanna's Custody
Hollywood- Congrats. I know I hardly play anymore, but doesn't Terminus still nuke the board with Custody out, as it doesn't target?
Seth
Hey Seth,
Thanks...I was just using in the context of protection. When an opponent casts Terminus, the card that you would typically use to protect Painter with would be Welder - but that would go away, too. If Custody resolves and sticks, you don't have to worry about needing a second card in play to protect it.
I suppose it's kind of a bad analogy because Terminus isn't spot-removal - but mass-removal - but the intent of the comment was to iterate that Hanna's Custody doesn't leave play with Painter and when it sticks it basically blanks all spot removal in an opponent's deck and stays in play in the wake of Terminus.
@ sroncor1:
That's why we play 6x Blast in the main and more in the sideboard. Instead of wasting them all trying to handle StP, Custody allows us to reserve them for the big plays like Terminus.
@ Michael Keller:
Whoa, no Smuggler's Copters at all!? I'm surprised to see you remove all copies of our only flyer when you're trying to turn on LutS.
Without Copter's filtering, wouldn't a 4th LutS be worth testing ASAP?
Regarding the Revoker in the maindeck: is this just standard utility (Jaces, Lilianas, Jittes, Vials, etc) or do you have specific cards in mind?
I'm still trying to figure it out. Copter just didn't impress me at all, regardless of its flying ability. Like I said - most of the time it sat there idle and did nothing. Sometimes it was good and useful, but it just seems underwhelming from my experiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
You can still play EE @ 0 with CoTv @ 0 on the board by paying 2 colorless (for example) with Ancient tomb when casting EEQuote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
What is it about the smuggler's copter that doesn't impress? it gives you a guy that flies, does minimal damage and draws cards. and it usually only gets removed on the turn it becomes a creature. Isn't that kinda ok at least? Maybe compared to LutS it doesn't do enough.
with all the talk about the copter being bad, i thought about thopter foundry and sword of the meek. If we're worried about fliers, the combo basically gives us enough blockers to stone most attackers, and given a couple of turns, you'd probably be able to get yourself a small squadron of fliers. And its somewhat terminus and swords to plowshares-'proof'.
I suspect it's too colour intensive to get into play though. mine is built on 2 mox diamond and 4 lotus petal (i don't have the budget for 3 city if traitors). My brief testing (3 foundry/2 sword) has been tricky to get into play, but when i land a foundry, it gives us a pretty good clock/resiliency against a lot of problems (namely, that the opponent is still alive).
I had one question about opposing abrupt decays. we're just going to have to live with it, right?
Last question/suggestion: thoughts on Duergar Hedge-Mage? it's like manic vandal, isn't a human, but it has the potential to also nab an opposing sylvan library, leyline of sanctity, or whatevers as a minor bonus. Not sure if its restriction of 2 or more mountains makes it unplayable or not.
Smuggler's Copter doesn't make the cut for me because it depends on another creature to do _anything_. And that's for a 2-mana artifact that itself eats creature removal if it's doing work, costs 3 under Thalia, and doesn't even actively support your usual primary win condition.
I've been using Thopter/Sword in a Transmute Artifact-heavy Grixis list to some success. It's evolved into my preferred wincon in a number of matchups (UR Delver, Show and Tell). I think it's a very potent solution to a number of the archetype's inherent problems.
You solve Abrupt Decay by means of Misdirection, Divert, or (in Shortcake, probably preferably) Apostle's Blessing.
Duergar Hedge-Mage is a strong card, but I'd be wary of its conditional nature. Its flexibility might trump that, but if your opponent can potentially use their spare Wasteland to deny you your artifact removal trigger, that's just gotta get to hurt you at times, I'm afraid.
I'm just providing insight as to my experiences. I'd say the sample size was small only because it was one event, but fifteen rounds was pretty indicative of what the format - for me at least - is comprised of and what kind of cards caused problems both internally and externally for the deck from an architectural and interactive dynamic. Smuggler's Copter is a good card, but I don't like and didn't like the way it did nothing many times and became another dead draw when I needed something better or more useful. That negative became a liability in a majority of cases for me, which is why I don't like it going forward. The card filter for me isn't as good as Light up the Stage with other options. (But as I said, playing both is still perfectly viable.)
One thing I'm reconsidering in the main is Viashino Heretic - if only because the damage it can do from its activated ability enables Stage (potentially). The three toughness can become relevant like its Painter counterpart to stop Snapcasters and Dark Confidants from attacking - I'm just pondering if the wait-a-turn thing is more important than the ability of the card in general.
I think many cards that are incidentally good against Depths (and good against it in general) are key going forward. I think it will represent a healthy portion of the meta - larger events especially - because it isn't expensive to build and is very competitive. Blood Moon in that regard becomes scary to play against it as I mentioned because of the rule change a while back.
Miracles is Miracles like I said; you just have to grind that match-up out early and stockpile Blasts for Jaces and Snapcasters (or Swords early enough if you have Painter). And there are just times where naturally Grindstoning an opponent can win you games, if for nothing else it messes up their Counterbalance triggers or Portent-based Terminus.
I feel like I'm the only one who has drawn dead 5 turns in a row and spent the whole time pining for a Smuggler's Copter.
Based on Michael Kellerman's results I went to 2 Ethersworn, 3 Copter, and 2 LutS and I like it. I'm open to 2 Copter, 3 LutS, but repeat filtering plus non-negligible clock (with evasion) has high appeal for me.
What's the rules change with Blood Moon and Depths?Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Exactly my feeling on the card. When you have Copter and beasties, all is great, but when there are no beasties around, Copter really makes me very sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
I really love heretic! Been playing him for a long time and I love having him over Vandal or Hedge-Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
I was thinking on switching to Blood Sun just for Depths (as it is a large portion of the current meta) but I'm doubting wether it should be in the board (as backup for moon) or just plain replace Moon in the main. Both have their uses in very different cases. Hard decisions to take!Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Keep in mind that Jack has also had a lot of success with Copter, so this may be more opinionated at this point. It just didn't work well for me during the course of the event, with effectively the same number of creatures.
Doesbt blood sun also remove cones into play triggers (ie comes into play with 10 ice counters on dark depths)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Correct, I missed that part!! So Sun is maybe not the best replacement, but then again, what is?Quote:
Originally Posted by schweinefettmann
Pithing Needle has been suggested. It should probably do the job of shutting off Stage, given Hanna's Custody and the usual Painter's Servant + Blasts.
@ Mirrislegend- HAHA. I know why we run blast, I did write the primer and all...
I just wanted to make it clear that the card doesn't directly address Terminus, but the STP, Snapcaster, STP sequence, which is very valuable. I will say that year ago the card never really panned out but it is likely the meta has changed in a manner to make it favorable.
The idea of a different draw engine than Copter is intriguing to say the least. Copter does a lot, but I think it is sort of a 4, 1, or 0 play. You either always want it as a focal point of the way you play and sequence the deck or its a tutorable option for the right situation(although I will be honest that I am not sure what that situation is).
I will always be fan of a streamlined and consistent deck, and so my preference will always be for more 4 of in the deck.
That being said I am speaking totally hypothetically as I have played the deck probably 4 times in the last 6 months, and probably less than ten events since we did the reworking of the deck back in the spring last year. I have found myself focusing more on Old School these days, but I still lurk with my pet deck.
Hollywood- I really like the ideas you are testing. I do think Walking Ballista should always be in the deck as it is just so strong in so many match ups. But other than that I have little to add. While Cratermaker seems fantastic, I will be honest, I have yet to pick any up, so I have never tested it.
I have spoken with and thought of testing with Jack some if work lets up. In the mean time keep painting. And free Ned Leeds...
Seth
Which card never panned out? Hanna's Custody? You've already tested it?Quote:
Originally Posted by sroncor1
Yes Hanna's Custody was tested years ago, I mean the card is nearly 2 decades at this point. It may be better suited in the current meta, but for me the card was never impactful enough when cast. I can see it as a sideboard option to fight the STP, Snap, STP engine or the Kolghan's Command sequencing. But for 3 mana you really need a lot, and I am not sure losing Welder and an inability to interact with your opponents hate artifacts is worth it. I will admit testing should be done, but in the past the card didn't do enough and it isn't like the format as slowed down or reduced consistency amongst decks since then.
You might be able to read about some of that testing in the older threads. I think the front page has links to the older threads that are archived.
Seth
Well, seeing as I most want it for StP, Snap, StP and KCommand, Snap, KCommand, I think its definitely primo sideboard material for the hard control matchups. Miracles occasionally has a Engineered Explosives in the SB. Grixis Control has more relevant stuff; usually 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Nihil Spellbomb. I'm guessing its worth the risk, but I won't know until I try. That'll be the first time I want Engineered Explosives vs Grixis Control.Quote:
Originally Posted by sroncor1
Thanks, Seth.
I think Custody as a singleton (or pair with an additional option out of the sideboard) is a bit more viable at this point in time. I do not, however, assume it is optimal - what I suggest is that based on my experiences, I noticed there were so many times where opponents would have succumbed to the combination of Painter's Servant and Grindstone with this in play. I tried it out a few weeks before the event and I liked what I saw.
The Welder interaction can be awkward, but it also depends on the scenario and when you're bringing it in. Assuming you play H.C. and it sticks, your combo is - for all intents and purposes - fail-safe, in addition to ensuring that Blasts are never dead in hand when a Painter resolves naming "blue." For as good as Welder always can be, there are times and match-ups where the investment of a single option like H.C. completely nullifies opposition as opposed to Welder - which dies much easier.
Death and Taxes is another example, where it would blank Swords to Plowshares, enable Blasts, stop Flickerwisp on an artifact of yours, protects Bridge and protects the combo. Dealing with Welder is much easier because it has an activated ability and can be killed by most removal. H.C. is extremely difficult to deal with, and I just think as a game gets drawn out it shores up a lot of situations where an opponent might be comfortably sitting on removal or answers.
This card shuts that all down completely and opens the door for a clean win upon resolution of the combo. Few other cards in Legacy fit that bill in a deck like Painter - the only other two being Spellskite and Welder (both good cards, but not so good later in the game where H.C. off the top is much, much better).
Great run and nice report, Michael! Unlucky to miss out on Top 8 in the last couple of rounds, but definitely confirms that the deck has legs in the hands of a seasoned painter.
Interesting to see new options being considered like Light Up the Stage. I have to say, not having played with it, the card does not seem good, particularly when in order to fit it in, one of the prime ways the deck has of getting in for damage (copter) is being cut to accommodate it (but more on our favourite chopper in a bit). The failcase is a worse divination, which is not a card I think any deck in legacy has any business playing to begin with. It's a tempo-negative play that doesn't dig particularly deep—it's less likely to find a combo piece than even just a cantrip, so I think if that's the play pattern we're looking for there are better options. Even if we're reliably triggering spectacle, that doesn't change the fact that it only lets you see two extra cards, and doesn't even play nicely with Welder or provide cards in hand to loot away.
Of course, take this with a pinch of salt as I haven't tested the card, but I'm curious as to what the main motivation is for looking at it as an option. These builds of Painter have always been more-or-less pedal-to-the-metal decks, about flinging your hand out there with some lock/disruptive elements (canonist/moon) and hoping for the best in terms of that being enough to hamper your opponent long enough to combo, with a secondary grindy/dorks plan facilitated by onboard CA engines like Recruiter.
When you don't have ways to catch up onboard, playing a relatively expensive spell for card advantage (that doesn't stick around, meaning that it plays poorly with reactive spells like blast) seems suboptimal to me. Decks that can afford to play straight-up card advantage spells, like Accumulated Knowledge out of Miracles, have things that restore parity (terminus) or answer spells without needing to access mana (force) or utilise the flexibility of instants to be able to leave up answers and then cast AK if the answer isn't necessary at that time (counterspell, snapcaster).
Notice that a deck like Grixis Control, which also plays a bunch of 2-for-1s, has to play ones that affect the board directly, like Baleful Strix and Kolaghan's Command. This is because playing those cards (answers that generate CA) allow you to take the time to outgrind your opponent and prevent you from falling behind incrementally to the point where simply having access to more resources means you win the game.
How this applies to Shortcake is that Smuggler's Copter lets you advance your secondary gameplan (killing your opponent with random dorks) while also providing card selection. Top (oh how we miss thee) also provided selection, and while it didn't affect the board in as direct a way, being an artifact played much better with the rest of the deck, and it also let you see so many more cards than something like Light Up the Stage.
To anticipate a response regarding Copter: colo rightly points out that Smuggler's Copter does nothing on its own, but I think the fact that it does something (and quite a lot, at that) in combination with almost a third of the other cards you play (17+ creatures, with recruiters even finding you a backup) mean that you should generally have something to crew it with. There are certainly times when you have two Copters and no creatures, but statistically that shouldn't happen very often. A question for those who have found it to be lacklustre—do you generally find it's poor because your creatures have all been removed or because you don't draw enough of them?
As far as Hanna's Custody goes, despite having played with it only a handful of times, I found its clunkiness in combination with Welder and lack of impact on the board to be problematic. If you're only playing it as a 1-of, you can't rely on it being present early enough to allow you to play it before playing the things that it protects. This, in turn, means that you're going to keep trying to play your game, and if your threats get removed before it comes down, chances are you're going to not have much left that it actually protects.
Additionally, the decks that we are talking about bringing it in against mostly have answers. Miracles can remove Custody with Disenchant or Council's Judgement, for example, and can also counter it in a pinch, and playing a card that does stone-cold nothing at first if it does resolve seems antithetical to a gameplan that involves trimming the fat as much as possible (removing petals) and trying to make it difficult for them to remove all our threats by surgicalling their swords. Sure, Grixis doesn't have good answers beyond Force to Hanna's Custody, and forcing the Force (as it were) might be worthwhile in that matchup. But the same goes for Leonin Abunas, which is another option in that slot that, while being one mana more expensive, at least vaguely impacts the board and is easier to tutor for than Custody.
(Yes, Custody can be Enlightened Tutored for, but it's rare that you can afford to burn a 'slow' tutor on a non-combo piece if it's not winning you the game outright (cf. Blood Moon) because of how tempo-negative the card is and the extent to which that affects finding further gas.)
As far as Goblin Cratermaker vs Manic Vandal, I definitely hear you that it's awkward when you can't kill a Chalice because there's a Painter in play. That said, it's usually going to be clear when that is going to be a relevant concern, and can be mitigated by tight play and consciousness of the issue. What Cratermaker brings in spades is flexibility, not least being good enough all round to justify a slot in the maindeck, which gives you a lot of game against a variety of things pre-sideboard. I don't think the format is slow enough for a card like Viashino Heretic to shine. I've lost a number of games that I would otherwise have won due to the fact that it can't activate when you play it, and I think it's really tough to justify playing a card in the maindeck that is a vanilla 1/3 for 3 in a fair few matchups. My experience has been that Cratermaker has been the real deal for the deck.
I never thought of Surgical Extraction as a card relevant to control matchups. However, I suppose it makes sense when you consider control decks to be threat-light and answer-dependent. Surgicalling StP vs Miracles or KCommand vs Grixis Control would go a long way towards swinging those matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper
Any other non-graveyard decks where you'd recommend boarding in Surgicals? Despite StP and Snapcaster, I'm torn if Surgical is correct vs UW Delver.
Well, gut reaction says that against control, the clock isn’t as important, so surgical works fine. Against wu stoneblade, they have a relevant clock, and negative tempo of a surgical puts us too far behind when we need to be pushing things forwards. I might be wrong tho.
Maybe if it’s possible to surgical a critical threat? But it’s no guarantee it’d be possible to hit.
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It’s going down tomorrow.
I love it. I can't wait to hear how it goes. Won't you need a bunch of extra mana sources to cast that 5 drop? 4th City and maybe some SSGs? SSG and Doll are awkward with Light Up the Stage. Whatever, I'm sure it will be a blast.
Not a Shortcake player but I've been waiting for a lifetime to see this combo in Legacy! Let us know how it went.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller