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The W6 ultimate requires more setup for retracing, though. This + Trade Routes allows repeatable recursion at a minimal opportunity cost. There's a good reason why cards like Snapcaster, Arcanist, Baby Jace, etc. exile the cards to prevent such cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
We'll see how those kind of decks are going to turn out, but with stuff like on-demand Terminus, I have a very bad feeling about this.
Terminus decks aren't renowned for playing Daze/recurring lands to hand. There's also a significant issue with getting to 3 Island on board while moving away from Tundra and still trying to cast :w::w: spells. If you're recurring Terminus like this, it could be any wrath card at all (5 lands on board: 3 Island, 1 Plains, 1 Sanctuary). While it's cool that it's tutorable, this trick has existed since before Terminus existed (Noxious, which can also rebuy PWs and has offensive uses).Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Why you moving away from tundra?
Best way to lose a game as UW: playing Tundra into “just got Waste’d out of the game,” doubly bad if your opening hand is forced Tundra play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
The other card is Vista, which is just free win % for UW (uninteractive basic openers cut down drastically on avoidable losses to unstable mana). There are fewer Fetches for the new Mystic Sanctuary, and it gets even worse if you make the play of Fetch Tundra vindicating yourself away from the ability to tutor the new land.
A 2-color deck can now run 8 fetches that each get either basic (e.g. 4 Flooded Strand + 4 Prismatic Vista for Island or Plains), which was not at all possible pre-Vista and allows consistent color-fixing without the usual blue fetch into duals. Arcum's Astrolabe smooths out the basic manabase even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
The drawback is the manabase now has fewer "Island" fetches, making it harder to get both Tundras and Mystic Sanctuary in play (i.e. with a Vista manabase you are not going to have 2 Tundra + Island when you drop Sanctuary as your 4th land), making this card pretty bad even as a 1-of. The decks most likely to stick to blue fetches + duals are decks like RUG Delver and 4c, but they're also less likely to want an ETB tapped monocolored land that's only good as the 4th-5th land drop.
Daze can abuse the ability, but decks that run Daze aren't playing for the lategame. (Edit: Maybe Stasis.dec wants this)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Ah thanks for the explanations!Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
So from the above I gather the proper home for this deck is a Uxx+ Control Deck? Something like Team America? But then you're also right that in such a deck the issue would become managing your islands . . .
The new land is less of a slam dunk than I initially thought - but I still fee like it has a home somewhere.
Actually, lol - what about monoblue control?
Prismatic Omen decks like these new lands a lot.
It's a neat set, personally I'm looking forward to playing a bunch of Abzan Giants/Adventure on Arena. Probably not the best deck, but fun, and good enough to be competitive, and at this point, that's pretty much all I care about.
I think it's still very interesting as a singleton in spiral tide.
So just to verify, there are no foil theme cards right?
Yeah my guess is the most natural homes are monoblue decks that want to hit 4+ lands (High Tide) and Uxx control decks that still tilt towards blue duals over basics and expect to play many lands (RUG Waterfalls?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
Spiral Tide could run 8-10 fetches + 1-2 Mystic Sanctuary + 8-9 Snow-Covered Island and use it to recycle combo pieces. I see no reason for them not to run it actually. Worst case scenario you're forced to play it early and have 1 less mana to cantrip turns 1-3 before going off. That's a minor drawback compared.
Ghostly Flicker is a fun interaction there.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I think the issue there is that you'd playing Ghostly Flicker, a 3 mana do-nothing, for a land that puts a spell atop your deck should you happen to have 4 lands on the table. At those costs, you have two cards competing directly with being 2x JTMS. They could also just be Snapcasters.Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
The easiest way to unlock Mystic Sanctuary is Daze. The issue is what deck plays at least 3 basic Island, Daze (Wasteland is implicit here), and actively pursues play patterns of multiple Island Fetching openers. You're looking at the pseudo-Delver family of decks: UBx Reanimator, UB[x] Shadow, UG[x] Infect, and Ux Dreadnought. The issue with the first three is the inability to stick to heavy blue openers [they also lack 3x basic Island, increasing variance. their land counts also run too low], but none of these four has CA stapled to instants or sorcs. The same is true of budget Delver (UR) - they aren't great at the mono-U openers, and they jump through hoops just to put a cantrip or Bolt back atop their deck???
High Tide has an issue with its payoff cards shuffling their top of deck, but maybe it's okay in the board vs discard-centric strategies. Adding it to SnT seems pretty dubious as they kinda die to creatures around 4th land drop anyways (and they don't draw necro'd SnT until turn 5). Worse versions of SnT without SnT [i.e. Splinter Twin which is a worse version of As Foretold, both run Chalice] aren't competitive, but I mean one of them could re-up a Balance or Ancestral...so I guess it's an automatic 1x in As Foretold. As we follow the path of increasingly unplayable we'll note that UR good stuff (basically the same deck as Blue Moon) runs back into the problem of no instants/sorcs to justify a Sanctuary. Theoretical decks using artifacts are drowned in card draw (PO, Thoughtcast, Reverse Engineer, TFK, to name a few) to the point that Sanctuary isn't needed.
While Mystic Sanctuary seems sweet, there's pretty high burdens to playability. Even if you get to the point of having a reason to play it, you've got a harder battle as you're destabilizing a mana base (for the tutor aspect) versus Noxious which is free, offensive & defensive, is seen by Snapcaster, and manabase-stabilizing (necros lost lands). I think Mystic Sanctuary probably belongs to Landstill with Daze [which is exactly Dreadstill], but not sure what there is to get back that we care about other than wanting to re-buy FoN to exile recursive spells. The next best candidate is buying back [???] Veil of Summer, but pure UG lacks removal (dead by that turn 5) and if you're adding colors to UG you're on Wrenn, so just play a Sandbar.
In High Tide decks it effectivey untaps 2 lands while simultaneously putting another tide on top of the library. That is interesting, if not necessarily optimal.
High Tide can fetch it during the combo turn just before casting a cantrip. Mystic has land type Island, which is very significant for the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
e.g. T4 Fetchland. Tap 1st Island. High Tide. Tap 2nd Island for UU. Crack fetch for untapped Mystic, putting High Tide on top of library. Brainstorm/Ponder. High Tide. Tap 3rd Island and Mystic for UUUUUU. Spiral/Turnabout/whatever.
Recycling either a High Tide or Turnabout at a strategic time could be the difference between going off and fizzling. Yes Spiral shuffles, but the deck has a lot of other ways to access the top card. Even USZ lets you draw first before shuffling.
Against discard the card becomes even more useful, allowing you to EOT fetch Mystic to put a discarded card on top, draw it, and go off. Mystic also lets you counter a game-ending Surgical Extraction on High Tide if you just play an extra land (4 Islands + 1 fetch) and save the fetch for protection.
RUG Waterfalls may be the best As Foretold deck. That deck is grindy enough that a 1x to recycle Crashing Footfalls or Ancestral Vision or removal could be good.Quote:
I mean one of them could re-up a Balance or Ancestral...so I guess it's an automatic 1x in As Foretold.
Dreadstill could happily buy back FoW/FoN under a Standstill lock or even Stifle/Brainstorm/removal outside of the lock, not terrible for a 1x.Quote:
I think Mystic Sanctuary probably belongs to Landstill with Daze [which is exactly Dreadstill], but not sure what there is to get back that we care about other than wanting to re-buy FoN to exile recursive spells.
Intuition is still the best with this land.
Entomb is like mystical tutor with this card.
While true, there is little difference between Noxious and Vamp. Tutor in decks that go long. Also, Personal Tutor does most of what you're describing without needing a second card.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
The other issues with Entomb so that you can put a spell on top of deck with a second card are:
-losing 2 slots
-why aren't you making a Grisel
-wouldn't you just play Entomb + JVP (+Grisel)
-how exactly are you going long in a deck with Entomb
The 2nd card requires no slot, as long as you're okay with a fetchable non basic that sometimes can't tap. I'd be happy with an end step turn 2 entomb + fetch.
So unless I'm misreading Mystic Sanctuary, it only does the thing if it ETB'd untapped. (turn 4 play, card drawn on turn 5)Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
I should read the card. Thanks!
No deck I know plays Foil, but this could interact well with foil in like a mono blue control. Discard to Foil - Counter Spell - then your turn cast COW - play it from your GY, get foil or another spell on yop of your library. So a base like the following to work with.
4 Mystic Sanctuary
4 Waste Land
8 Fetch
8 Island
4 COW
4 FOW
4 Foil
4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
12 Open?
@Cire: immediately -3 Mystic Sanctuary, add 3 Daze, then make room for a 4th Daze. Question with Foil becomes what you're pitching that advances gameplan by virtue of being in the yard (or madness-enabled). Secondary to that, you're playing a lot of blue and you're going to have to answer a lot of questions with your remaining slots. You have to be able to either not care about or stop C. Priest, RiP, Choke, Narset - and this is just the short list.
You have ~12 slots left, and you need an instant/sorcery-based CA engine. You need a way to win the game. That way to win the game has to be reliable against things like Depths and Vial. Your deck has to reliably survive until turn 4 (but really, turn 5) and prefer playing long games.
UB Mill is probably a better launching point, but even this deck has Islands on board issues as they will play more aggressive land counts with GQ/Field of Ruin. They do at least have this idea of Archive Trap turning on Visions of Beyond, and Sanctuary picking up either piece of this synergistic combo with value stapled on.
one really janky combo would be with trade routes and temporal mastery.
The thing that I mis-read was that it's top-deck rather than to hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
That said, there are decks that cheat on land count. This could be pretty good in egg decks if Second Sunrise gets a fetchland back and a free draw into play, and then sanctuary puts Second Sunrise back on top. Of course eggs is pretty awful in legacy. (Maybe they're trying to support that kind of deck with sanctuary and Brought Back.)
Temporal Mastery Exiles itself. Any other Time Walk effect works, provided you can actually win.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Man I'm on a roll for not reading cards today!Quote:
Originally Posted by whienot
I think the biggest Legacy sleeper of the set is going to be Vantress Gargoyle.
A 5/4 flyer for 1U is stupid beyond belief, and it's pretty much always going to be able to attack vs. any kind of Xerox deck, and vs. pretty much anything except stax if the decks running it just put in Thought Scour as one of their cantrips.
The fact that it positively trades with Delver even without being able to attack is pretty key I think.
Yeah the Gargoyle is pretty solid in a format where graveyards fill up very quickly and he dodges bolt as well and pitches to Force.
It dodges Bolt, but becomes attackable via artifact removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smuggo
I'll withhold final judgement about it until I've seen it action. It could be a more aggressive flying Goyf, who knows. Stuff like Burning Inquiry should enable it pretty quickly, too.
If it goes anywhere, expect more Abrades and Kolaghan’s CommandsQuote:
Originally Posted by Barook
You're Tin Fins going for the Plan C non-Grisel Tendrils kill because there's a Needle on Grisel and Abrupt Decays are for chumps not trying to turn 1 people, but you forgot that you need 4 Islands in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
OR
You're a 27+ land deck who decided not to get Life from the Loam to troll Surgical Extraction for days.Quote:
how exactly are you going long in a deck with Entomb
These are the only 2 cases I can think of....
The "winning" part is challenging given that your combo costs 6 mana per turn (Time Warp is the next cheapest one), and building up more mana is challenging since you spend each land drop replaying Mystic. So you can get infinite turns with 0 land drops and -6 mana, but what do you do with them?Quote:
Any other Time Walk effect works, provided you can actually win.
Then there's the matter of surviving until you hit 6 lands and assemble a 2-card combo (Trade Routes + Time Warp). If the rest of your deck is capable of keeping you alive until that, why not win right away with RiP+Helm or Exarch+Twin or other 2-card combos...
Gargoyle looks amazing. The drawback is cards like Gurmag Angler and Dreadhorde Arcanist actively sabotage your efforts to fill their yard. It needs the right home to support it.
I'm not so high on this cardQuote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
It does look cool on the surface but in a lot of ways I think it's a 2-mana Pteramander
(Not dying to Wrenn is a thing I guess but still)
It's a Ptermander with better game against RUG (dodges Bolt & Wrenn, blocks turn 1 Delver, flies to kill Wrenn).Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
But it's awful against Swamp. Hymn to Tourach and friends stop you from blocking, Gurmag Angler and friends stop you from attacking.
Unfortunately red can just use Abrade and Cindervines to deal with it, so it's only a temporary metagame solution.
If the Mystic Sanctuary / Time Warp thing has any traction, it will be in modern where taking turns is already borderline viable.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I'm also stuck wondering about interactions with Gush and (newly unrestricted) Fastbond in vintage.
The requirement to have three other islands in play is pretty significant. It's a card that you don't want to draw. I imagine that mystic sanctuary will see some testing as a 1-of to be used with fetchlands in games that run long in miracles, and possibly other grindy brainstorm decks.
I don't understand. Neither Gush nor Fastbond display an iceberg.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
the iceberg is Mystic Sanctuary
Gush evaporates it
Time Warp will not have any traction in a world where the topdeck plays 3 Pyroblast, 4 Wasteland 4 Daze 3 Spierce 4 FoW 2 FoN
It's a good thing almost all those cards are banned in ModernQuote:
Originally Posted by Poron
in order to have a combo you need a way to retrieve Sanctuary every turn. How do you do it in modern?
I'm not saying it's good enough, but Trade Routes was printed in both 8th and 9th Editions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
then we have a combo, ok. 4 Teferi Time Reveler will do the restQuote:
Originally Posted by H