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Well you guessed 1 of my pieces, I actually got 2 during the Hulk Flash era and ran 1 in the sb at Columbus. I was also testing morning tide for Ichorid/Breakfast/Graveyard decks but I think Returns can serve the same purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost
Morning Tide stalls for you, Returns involves more of an investment, but you should be winning anyways... of course, if you have the resources to play it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
Personally, I think Morning Tide isnt a bad idea. How has Morning Tide been doing for you anyways?
Yeah, I was all about that card during Flash seasonQuote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
Also, Angel's Grace, but it doesn't stop your hand being raped by Therapy.
EDIT- Grace doesn't do enough, it's cute because of SS, but Extract is definately infy times better.
Also, thanks for the love guys. :cool:
Would you guys recommend playing TES at legacy champs? I'm pretty sure i will go to gencon so i need to decide on a deck and well TES is what i have been playing for months, but i feel that the metagame has changed a lot and something like aluren might be better. I won't play aluren though as it's too slow. I actually don't think i could play anything other than TES except maybe SI, which is just too inconsistant. What do you guys think the best list for gencon would be?
I believe you answered your own question.
I won't be playing it, but not because I believe it is bad or worse than anything, I just want to play what I am more comfortable with. Play within your comfort zone.
Actually, with the current meta, TES is quite viable. The only real change I can see is that breakfast is going to be the pick of the combo decks, and hate against breakfast would not affect TES drastically. TES can still play through aggro-control, and a singleton sb extract/extirpate to wish for can take care of the breakfast matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
If I was to play TES at gencon this is what I'd play...Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [TE] Meditate
2 [IA] Pyroblast
1 [MI] Infernal Contract
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [OD] Extract
SB: 1 [US] Duress
This was my unreleased list that I've been testing and loving. There's alot of changes to the deckthat may take getting used to, but I like this list alot.
Does this mean you wouldn't be playing TES if you went to gencon?Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
Or are you just not going?
The new list is interesting, it's sort of funny how TES and SI are moving toward each other. Draw4s are easily. some of the best setup spells in the game.
I will not be attending Gencon. If I was I'd pilot that list of TES to a top 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost
TES is Megatron, plain and simple. It can take any good quality from a deck and add it to it's self. Tinderwalls, Draw 4's, Ill-Gotten Gains, ect... Which gives the deck lasting power.
Megatron can't do that. You're thinking of the Borg from Star Trek:TNG. Get your geek references straight, youngin. ~ Nightmare
TES is actually only Tutors and broken mana acclerants, there is nothing else, everyone else just puts in the best draw spells, and storm +'s they can, which all happen to be about the same...
I personally don't like meditate main deck, i play the Contracts as turn before set up cards, so playing a meditate the turn before just seems bad...
In a vaccuum I guess, but then again wouldn't Goblins just be a bunch of creatures? There's much more than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon_demon1
Meditate is easier to cast than Contract/Bargain without a 4 of in the deck, which is why it was included. Meditate's skip a turn is also irrelevant vs. Control which is important.
So wait.... so is Grim Long just broken mana accel, bombs, tutors, and 4 Duresses? I think there's more to that as well, if you think about the decision tree.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon_demon1
Well I tested that list for a few hours and I liked it although I would probably want to make the following changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
-2 pyroblast
-1 meditate
-1simian spirit guide
+ 2 xantid swarm
+ 2 tinder wall
I have to say i'm likeing 4 chants more than ever. I was very resistant to playing them until recently as they seemed very clunky, but they are working out well.
I am not liking simian spirit guide that much though as i seem to be seeing hands that contain a mix of ETW, SSG, and 2 other dead cards whether they be 2 lands or another copy of ssg/etw or even a chrome mox. He isn't good at helping me cast a t1 draw4 either. SSG is also used less since it is no longer used to feed a t1 plunge. I think 4 is way too many to run atm although i'm not sure on what the correct number to run would be. I think id replace them with tinder wall.
Pyroblast vs xantid is just a preferance. They are very similar, but xantid is really just a preferance. Blast has also been a dead card so often in the testing i've done. Xantid would've been dead too so I would actually consider testing 2 duresses in this slot. They are still good against control and are infinately better than either xantid or pyroblast against combo. The big problem with duress is that it is pretty horrible when used with iggy or d-returns.
I also cut a shattering spree from the board to make room for a second pyroblast giving me access to 2 of those and 2 reb psotboard. I'm also considering dropping goblin warstrike in favor of something like nights whisper. Its something you would bring in against thos black control decks and is a different cc so you can get it with wish if you dont have the mana for cruel bargain or iggy/dreturns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
DO NOT cut war strike. You'll reget it if you do, especially for a card like Night's Whisper. You already have a Bargain sideboard. War Strike wins soo many games and especially before hate comes down such as EE and Deed.
Yeh, ive' gone gobs for 9 warstrike, SO many times, leaving them at 1-0 life depending on fetches...
It's So fun, i did warstrike for 18 one time, he has a EE out, but 1 land and a fetch, and couldn't Blow to EE to stop me, cause the fetch would have killed him.
Warstrike is AMAZING, don't cut them.
Also, i'm disliking the Tutor meditate package, they are worse than Plunge was, since i can never cast them before comboing (Meditate i don't want to) and in combo, i find better uses for 3 mana, (like finding 1 more mana, and drawing 3 more cards? or 1 less black, and looping...)
I'm still loving the tinder walls, but i'm not running them as of yet.
I'm also working on a HUGE (4 pages of card discussion as of right now) artical on TES, thati'm going to submit to SCG (anyone that has written for them, please let me know who to talk to in a PM). I'll be posting a few bits, here for proof reading/seeing if i'm totally off the wall.
you can respond to the goblin war strike with fetching a land and blowing up all the goblins, so you don't have goblins equal zero and no damage is done.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon_demon1
I too dislike the cruel bargain package, but i think a one of main is ok. It is great when you go dark rit, bargain or when you are able to tutor and pop an led into one but its not really a card you want to see often. I think its better than plunge, but still nowhere near as good as dreturns or iggy.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon_demon1
Anyway here's what my gencon list looks like atm
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
2 undiscovered paradise
3 simian spirit guide
2 tinder wall
2 xantid swarm
1 diminishing returns
1 ill gotten gains
1 cruel bargain
1 tendrils of agony
4 LED
4 dark ritual
4 burning wish
4 infernal tutor
4 rite of flame
4 chrome mox
4 lotus petal
4 brainstorm
3 ETW
4 orims chant
Sideboard
1 cruel bargain
1 diminishing returns
1 iggy
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 duress
4 red elemental blast
1 hull breach
1 shattering spree
1 goblin war strike
1 pyroclasm
1 extract
unless he used a petal to play it, and only had one land untapped(the fetch)...Quote:
Originally Posted by gnurbel2000
1 land and a fetch... Hmm...Quote:
he has a EE out, but 1 land and a fetch
Sorry if somebody said it before, but, i try to use one storm entity in the case i have not enough mana (because of a chalice or a unlucky draw). I like it because it cost just 2cc and is ready to fight with its haste.
What do you think about it ?
I think about:
Swords to Plowshares and the missing of trample
Hello,
When do you play Meditate excactly?
I mean if you play it against control decks, because the loose a turn isn't that important, the card turns out to be very bad. You only get 2 cards advantage, because your opponent gets 2 draw phases. During Combo he is only a little better then Contract. They both are there to draw out a counter for 3 mana, only Meditate is easier to cast.
So what is the logic time to use Meditate.
Next to that I believe that Pyroblast is better than Xantid Swarm. First of all it kills of Meddling Mage and for 1 mana it can give storm +2 if your the opponent counters a spell and you blast back. I won games because of the counterwar gave me enough storm to go for a lethal Tendrils. At worst case they can add the storm count for 1 mana, because you can target any spell or permantent with it( unlike REB).
I'm thinking about removing the Meditate but have no idea what to put in the deck instead. A single Plunge looks silly.
For now my deck looks like Wastedlife's list with
MD
-1 Meditate
+1 Tendrils of Agony( making the double Tendrils plan more likely( I used to play alot of IGGy before EtW))
BB
I've recently gone back to a Bargain/Contract over Meditate. Meditate is better vs. Control but terrible vs. everything else. I normally use the draw 4's as set-up spells and it's hard to set-up and skip a turn. I agree with how good Pyroblasts are, I'm also testing Duress in those slots too I'm not sure which is better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benie Bederios
I proxied this up to try and knock the rust off my storm skills, not having played in like two months. I think 7 protection spells might be a bit much. I also am not super happy with the draw4s but I don't have anything better to suggest. The deck feels like it wants one but not two; I do agree that Contract is a better fit than Meditate.
I'm happy with 2x Draw 4's. Although, I have 2 Duress maindeck and I'm thinking about going down to just 4 Chants for Protection. This leaves 2 open splots, potentially three if you only want one maindeck Infernal Contract or Cruel Bargain. Which is also under consideration. I want to add more acceleration, then again I'd like more consistancy.
EDIT: I just through in two Cabal Rituals over two Duress/Pyroblast after rereading the thread and noticed Goobafish's advice. It makes the draw 4's alot better, which helps with consistancy and is acceleration.
Personally, I think any Threshold player who lets you have 4 mana should be shot. So baiting Rituals should win you the game already, rather than fight over one with Pyroblast. Cabal Rits do so much for you, it's not even funny.
Not only do Cabal Rits build storm, and make a little acceleration, but also helps you accel into Bargains/Contracts, which help you recover on the resource war(s).
I like the new lists right now too. Resolving Brainstorm = Win on Turn 1.5, and so much more crap, as well as the classic 1st turn land, rit, Bargain.
I think 2 cabal rits and 2 draw 4's seems kind of random. They really aren't great alone. If you were to go the draw 4 route i would probably go up to 3 or maybe even 4 draw 4's and 4 cabal rituals. I have to say when i played the deck with 1/2 draw 4's and only dark rits they were always weka unless i had a dark ritual to go with them, but at the same time you want some other business spells besides your infernals and wishes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
So how consistently do you get BBB to play 1 of your 2 Draw 4s, considering one of them isnt Meditate?Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
And why would you waste a Ritual for it when you can just waste a Cabal Rit?
Also, Chants are enough to win. You hit 4 mana, EtW the fucker into oblivion. Threshold players are already wasting themselves into just keeping you off 4 mana. Least you could do is play Cabal Rit, after the resource war happens and just Contract with BB floating.
I don't get bbb consistantly. Thats why I have already dropped down to 1 infernal contract main and have even toyed with the idea of not playing any. The problem then is that you don't have enough draw and tutoring power. One of my recent lists ran 3 ssg, 2 xantid, 2 tinder walls and 1 draw 4. I wish I had more room but the 3 ssg will remain the same so i only have 5 slots to toy with. I will probably test 3 cabals and 2 draw 4's in place of the xantids and walls. Other than that i can attempt 4 nights whisper and add the 4th ssg, 3 whispers leaving 2 tinder walls/2 xantids, or just try something totally different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
edit:
I just did some testing and i have to say that 3 infernal contracts and 3 cabals works quite well, but you dont really have the room for them. At the same time i tested 2 and 2 and it works out better than i expected. I would say its much more consistant, especially if you can fit 3 draw 4's into the deck. They really havent proved clunky at all when running cabal rituals.
I did some more testing and i have to say 3 draw4's and 3 cabal rits are working great. I am running 2 etw and 3 ssg to make room but a turn 1 draw4 is so good against anything. The deck plays so much more aggresively with them. They are also quite good in almost all matchups when compared to plunges, and whatever other random protection or accel would be in those slots. 2 and 2 seems fine, but i think that the 3 draw 4's suits my style of play more.
It seems like we're thinking differently here. You want consistency, and still have a good control match up. I want to not only win the resource war against control, I also want to recover from the resource war and capitalize on thier exhaust, and just win as fast as possible.
I just finished 50 goldfishes with the 3 draw 4 3 cabal rit version and i have to say it is much more consistant than previous incarnations of the deck. 25 were on the play 25 on the draw. Anyway when i tried this with my previous list the deck fizzled/mulled to oblivion 6 times and tended to win on turns 2 and 3 mostly. When i say fizzled it only means it wasnt able to win by turn 4. sometimes you'l get great hands against control which dont win for a while but for the goblins and combo matchup you should be able to win by turn 4 if required. Anyway heres how the deck performed...
T1 kills- 16 (1 with protection)
T2 kills- 20 (7 with protection)
T3 kills- 10 (7 with protection)
T4 kills- 2 (1 with double chant protection)
Fizzle- 2 (one was a plain mull to oblivion, and the other just drew too many tutors, chants)
I have to say i'm very surprised by the turn one win percentage. I didn't expect it to be anywhere near that level, but a turn one draw 4 has the potential to be much more broken than a plunge. I still think that this might be a bit high when it comes to turn one kills, but the speed of the deck is insane. The turn 3 kills were almost all warrens kills and the turn two kills were usually fueled by a turn one draw 4, brainstorm, or tutor. I feel that this version definately deserves some testing against real decks. Anyway heres the list...
MD
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
2 undiscovered paradise
3 simian spirit guide
3 cabal ritual
4 rite of flame
2 infernal contract
1 cruel bargain
4 brainstorm
4 dakr ritual
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox
4 lions eye diamond
4 burning wish
4 infernal tutor
1 ill gotten gains
1 dreturns
1 tendrils
2 empty the warrens
4 chant
SB
1 warrens
1 tendrils
1 ill gotten gains
1 dreturns
2 reb
2 pyroblast
1 cruel bargain
1 duress
1 hull breach
1 shattering spree
1 extract
1 goblin war strike
1 pyroclasm
I was even suprised you argued with me on the Cabal Rits and 4 Draws... and now you're running them.
Well my biggest problem with the Pyroblasts is, that they suck if i want to go over LED and haven`t got a chant. Then theyre just useless...So i think i will test duress too at the moment i think it`s better!
Greetings,
NQN
@ Andrew 77- I feel that 3/3 may be too many, after all the deck isn't based on Draw 4's. Think of the card as I do, a replacement for Plunge. This is where people get lost alot of the time. It's not a tutor card, infact you should probably never crack LED with Infernal and get Bargain/Contract. More importantly it's not a focal point in the deck, as draw 4's are in SI, the card might as well be Plunge into Darkness. If you draw the card, you draw the card. Don't go out of your way to play them, that seems bad, and a waste of resources.
Less than 4 SSG seems insane, it's free mana, another Lotus Petal almost. SSG and Cabal Ritual add the same amount of mana without Threshold, I don't see why you'd cut the one that's free for the one that costs two mana.
I don't base the deck on draw 4's by runnig 3/3. The advantage of this split is that you have a pretty good chance of having a draw 4 in your opening and with 3 cabal rits they are quite easy to cast. In my testing a turn one draw 4 usually leads to a t2 win if it resolves. The reason i actually tested 3/3 was because i really felt that 2 draw 4's without cabal rits were very clunky as i could hardly ever cast them and i never wanted to tutor for one. I am actually probably going to replace the one in the sb with sometihng else. Anyway I had 4 free slots and when i tested 2/2 it seemed way too random. I quickly dropped a ssg, which doesnt work well with the draw 4's, and a etw. Since doing so the 3/3 split has worked nicely. I played against a few thresh decks earlier and I went 4-5 in games against the u/g list and 5-1 against red thresh. The ug list is really nasty and preys on any weak draws you have. Xantid swarm would totally own it though. The red list is much easier to beat but pyroclasm can be quite annoying at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
I play from many months a decklist very similar to the list of andrew77 with the substitution of infernal contract with the classic plunge and some small variations on mana acceleration (4ssg are obligatory).
It's from june that I put xantid swarm in the attic and I use a playset of chants.
Now, I'll try the variation with infernal contracts. Thanks for the good idea.
I've only a question: why do some decklists contain reb instead of pyroblast?
In legacy there aren't many misdi and pyroblast doesn't prevent our hellbent like an horrible reb. It's only for the meddling that some people use reb instead of pyroblast? (I continue to use 2 defense grid in sb against control; I think that it's a card understimate in some metagame).
im changing the pyroblasts and reb's to xantid swarms for now since there is way too much u/g thresh online. I see it so much more often than red or white thresh, and they just can't do anything against a resolved xantid.
What do you think about the use of a plan B in side?
Like 3 Tombstalker or 3 Tarmogoyf n side?
If my opponent doesn't see in g1 any critters usually he side out StP or others removals, so perhaps cards like Tombstalker can be a good choice. or not?
I this case, why not storm entity ?Quote:
What do you think about the use of a plan B in side?
Like 3 Tombstalker or 3 Tarmogoyf n side?
If my opponent doesn't see in g1 any critters usually he side out StP or others removals, so perhaps cards like Tombstalker can be a good choice. or not?