[Deck] Armageddon Stax

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

Runed Halo seems like a great answer to single card strategy like goyf and dreadnought.

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You're very right. Although I'm not too worried about Goyfs or Dreadnoughts, any deck playing those are pretty good match-ups. So is there any new tech concerning the harder match-ups like Landstill?

Edit: Pringlesman, I'm not sure about your meta, but I have found I want 6(!) 'geddon effects, so if you can get your hands on Ravages of War, you should do it. In my meta, with all the solidarity, TES, Fetchland Tendrils and whatnot, I have to play Rule of Law in SB.

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

You're very right. Although I'm not too worried about Goyfs or Dreadnoughts, any deck playing those are pretty good match-ups. So is there any new tech concerning the harder match-ups like Landstill?

Edit: Pringlesman, I'm not sure about your meta, but I have found I want 6(!) 'geddon effects, so if you can get your hands on Ravages of War, you should do it. In my meta, with all the solidarity, TES, Fetchland Tendrils and whatnot, I have to play Rule of Law in SB.

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I agree with you on the wanting on 5+ geddon effects, I just can't justify spending 50-60+ on a geddon varient when I still have duals, mox diamonds (I'm still borrowing them), and other random good cards in the format to buy.

Hi all!

Guys, a question: what the White Stax have (in main deck) against the Dredge deck? And the options for the side?

Thx,

Lammina

With Dredge's shaky mana supply, any Ghostly Prison-style effect should be golden. Combined with this is their heavy use of nonbasics, which recurring wastelands can destroy handily. You may be able to turn a Factory into a Worker, then sac it to Smokestack or kill it with Wasteland, thus removing Bridges.

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Originally Posted by Lammina

Guys, a question: what the White Stax have (in main deck) against the Dredge deck? And the options for the side?

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Almost everything. Let's take a look:

Crucible, Angel: Not good per se, but they're respectively the glue that holds the deck together and the stabilizer in the face of an initial rush. Angel could be sided out, but as they don't run removal and it can comfortably race 7-8 power of creatures (depending on your life total), and you have better stuff to take out anyway (Stax and/or Ring), it usually isn't.

Armageddons: Generally great, turning soft locks into hard locks. Don't get greedy - use them as Stone Rains if needed. Exploit their 12-land count.

Wasteland: Wuv. 50%-100% of Armageddon's returns with a far smaller cost.

Chalice: At 1 it shuts down Imp, Therapy (though they still get to sac), G2 Chain of Vapor, and Careful Study/Gamble/Brainstorm if run. Breakthrough also needs to be for 1 or more. So it can be decent, if far from spectacular. However, G2 it's critical because at 2 it turns off Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation, pretty much hard-locking them.

Trinisphere: Ouch. Enjoy your 12 lands... and pray I don't draw a Wasteland or Armageddon. Of course, it gets far weaker past turn 1, though still good.

Ghostly Prison: Same as Trinisphere, except that attacking is more vital for Ichorid than casting spells. Usually it's either Ray of Revelation or GG, especially if you draw multiples.

Magus: This is your insurance for the long game: unless they pull off something like 3x Ichorid + Moebas into DR into FKZ/Akroma (and you don't have a Trini), it shuts off Zombie Tokens and DR plans. Of course, it also blocks Ichorid all day long.

Oblivion Rings: I don't run them MD, but if you do, they're probably your worst card for the MU. They do work as insurance against reanimated fatties, though.

Smokestack: Awesome if they don't have Zombie tokens; terrible if they do. I usually side these out for Powder Kegs or Engineered Explosives.

Hi all!

Thanks for the answers! I got it!


I have a test-list of ArmaStax, lets see:

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
3x Flagstones of Trokair
5x Plains
3x Mishra Factory
1x Nomad Stadium

3x Magus of the Tabernacle
2x Winborn Muse
1x Silent Arbiter
1x Exalted Angel

4x Ghostly Prison
4x Smokestack
3x Crucible
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
4x Armageddon

SB
3x Hanna's Custody
3x Suppression Field
2x Porphyry Nodes
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Powder Keg

What you think? Any ideas?
I thinking some changes, like:

-1 Nomad Stadium
+1 Horizon Canopy

-2 Muse
-1 Silent arbiter
+3 Oblivion ring

Im right in my idea, or not?


Thx for now,

Lammina

How useful are the Hanna's Custodies? Karmic Justice won't protect you permanents as well, but it does provide card advantage that compliments the mana denial aspect while being useful against sweepers.

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Originally Posted by Lammina

3x Flagstones of Trokair

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I would run a playset anyway, but especially with 4 Smokestacks I'm betting it's worth it to run 4 of them.

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1x Nomad Stadium
2x Windborn Muse

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They're OK if there's lots of burn/aggro in your area. Nomad is questionable since it's not very easy for you to gain Threshold. I have never tested the card, so you should do it and check if getting 7 cards in your graveyard is a problem.

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1x Silent Arbiter

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Ugh, this is terrible since it has zero synergy with the rest of your taxing effects (Prison and Windborn Muse). Don't play it, a second Angel is better.

Note that if you increase the number of Angels, you also need more white mana sources

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3x Crucible

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FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO NO FUCK FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK FUCK FUCKFUCKFIASIDOAFJLAKGSASF.

Crucible is the heart and soul of this deck. It makes City of Traitors not suck, it turns Armageddons from emergency buttons to "I win" buttons, it turns Mox Diamond from decent to completely broken, it doubles the power of an active Smokestack. I would run six if I could. When I play Meddling Mage against White Stax, I always name Crucible if there isn't one in play yet.

Play four or go home. The fact that a second copy is only Smokestack fodder is basically irrelevant when compared to the importance of seeing and sticking one early.

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SB

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There are a few suboptimal choices (Hanna's Custody; Porphyry Nodes in a deck with Magus and Windborn Muse), but first and foremost you need to run Defense Grid: it makes your Landstill matchup so much better, since you have few actually threatening spells (Crucible, Armageddon, Smokestack), and it helps Threshold as well.

Hope that helped. Last note: can you tell us a bit about your meta? We can then tell you whether your choices are reasonable. From the list you've posted, I suspect you see quite a bit of aggro, am I right?

4x City of Traitors => this could be 3
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland => this could be 3
3x Flagstones of Trokair
5x Plains => I run 6 at least, 7 pref.
3x Mishra Factory => this could be 4
1x Nomad Stadium => lol?

3x Magus of the Tabernacle => I like 4 Tab effects, so I run a Tabernacle too
2x Winborn Muse => these die, I wouldn't do it.
1x Silent Arbiter => lol?
1x Exalted Angel => this could be 2 or 3.

4x Ghostly Prison
4x Smokestack => this could be 3.
3x Crucible => as Nihil pointed out: you need 4.
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
4x Armageddon => this could be 5 or 6 with Ravages of War.

SB
3x Hanna's Custody => I don't run this...but perhaps I should...are they any good?
3x Suppression Field
2x Porphyry Nodes => I think I'd prefer something like Rule of Law in this slot. I'm not too worried about creatures.
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Powder Keg

For comparisson, my SB currently is (note that I run 3 Oblivion Rings MB):

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Rule of Law
3 Aura of Silence (going to cut down on this one probably)
4 Suppression Field
2 Defense Grid

As soon as I get my hands on it I'll swap a Suppression Field for a Defense Grid, the 2 Crypts for Wheel and an Aura of Silence for a Rule of Law...probably...but I need to test :-)

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Originally Posted by Nihil

I would run a playset anyway, but especially with 4 Smokestacks I'm betting it's worth it to run 4 of them.

They're OK if there's lots of burn/aggro in your area. Nomad is questionable since it's not very easy for you to gain Threshold. I have never tested the card, so you should do it and check if getting 7 cards in your graveyard is a problem.

Ugh, this is terrible since it has zero synergy with the rest of your taxing effects (Prison and Windborn Muse). Don't play it, a second Angel is better.

Note that if you increase the number of Angels, you also need more white mana sources

FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO NO FUCK FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK FUCK FUCKFUCKFIASIDOAFJLAKGSASF.

Crucible is the heart and soul of this deck. It makes City of Traitors not suck, it turns Armageddons from emergency buttons to "I win" buttons, it turns Mox Diamond from decent to completely broken, it doubles the power of an active Smokestack. I would run six if I could. When I play Meddling Mage against White Stax, I always name Crucible if there isn't one in play yet.

Play four or go home. The fact that a second copy is only Smokestack fodder is basically irrelevant when compared to the importance of seeing and sticking one early.

There are a few suboptimal choices (Hanna's Custody; Porphyry Nodes in a deck with Magus and Windborn Muse), but first and foremost you need to run Defense Grid: it makes your Landstill matchup so much better, since you have few actually threatening spells (Crucible, Armageddon, Smokestack), and it helps Threshold as well.

Hope that helped. Last note: can you tell us a bit about your meta? We can then tell you whether your choices are reasonable. From the list you've posted, I suspect you see quite a bit of aggro, am I right?

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@ Nihil: Im so glade with the attention! In first place, sorry for any english error, ok?


The meta game here is infested of aggro decks (gobbos, elfes, Threshold, MAGES (!!!), faries, knights...), but in the last champ, one guy with Dredge´s deck was the winner (and my Suicide black with tarmo, in second).

For the next champ, I need prepare my ArmaStax for this meta (heavy aggro, but with some EXTREMELY dangerous-fast decks, like Dredge and Psycatog...)

T4 decks causing headache for legacy ones.... sounds like a joke huh? hehe!

Waiting ideas!

Bye,

Lammina

So you are trying to tune your w stax for a meta with a whole lot of fast agro? Well, first off I'm try to lower the number of smokestacks you are running, or even remove them all together. Most likely elves, gobs, mages, faries, and knights are going to be able to get out enough permanents to keep up with you stax counters. I've been working on a w stax list recently tuned for a heavy agro meta.

6 x plains
4 x ancient tomb
4 x city of traitors
4 x wastelands
3 x flagstones
2 x tabernacles
1 x horizon canopy
1 x kor haven

3 x ghostly prison
4 x trinisphere
4 x chalice of the void
4 x armageddon
4 x crucible of the worlds
4 x mox diamond
3 x oblivion ring

3 x magus of the tabernacle
3 x windborn muse
3 x exalted angel

sb
1 x ghostly prison
1 x windborn muse
4 x suppression field
4 x duskrider
4 x avien mindcensor
1 x oblivion ring

So I'm not sold completely yet on the duskrider and mindcensor in the sb. Duskrider has mostly been there tombstalker, and the fact that I've still never seen a deed hit him. Mindcensor has its good points and bad ones. Its great for hours of fun against fetches, survival, combat tricks, and getting threats into play against control. It just seems like I should be running somethign better, but have yet to find someting that fits.

Also, horizon canopy is great as a 1 of, run it if you can. I think I'm still one of the few people on the stax thread that loves muse. I would never run her as my only prison effect, but in combination she's a beast. Her ablity to fly in for damage and still prison them has won me many a game.

I've been playing Stax myself, without the Ravages unfortunately, but haven't kept up with the thread. In any case, I was wondering if anybody else tested Mistveil Plains out of SHA? (Search turned up nothing.)
It was surprising how seldom the cipt clause mattered in preliminary testing - most often I fetched my singleton with Flagstones, ditched it with Diamond, or just plain didn't need the mana right then.
Sometimes it happens that, albeit having a Smokestack lock in place, you draw nothing and are forced to give it up (aggro especially, or decks that can hoard spells for one explosive turn; and whenever you draw too many of your plains). Using Mistveil Plains, provided you have two white permanents and a Crucible in play, you can keep Smokestack with two counters on it forever. At worst, it allows you do dig for another Smokestack/Geddon (if you don't have on-board pressure and can't cast it while activating Mistveil Plains).
I've also recurred Armageddon with it on occasion, though that still necessitates being able (and willing) to blow up Flagstones.

So the upside is quite situational, but busted - possibly to the point of win-more - if it pans out; while the drawback is far from irrelevant but manageable. Or maybe I'm just being lucky to draw Mistveil Plains mostly when it's not crap, or unlucky with my post-lock draws.
Any thoughts?

I find it just outright absurd to claim that running out of Plains (which does happen) costs you the win more often than once every ten thousand games, and especially more often than it does having a frickin' nonbasic CIPT land in your deck.

For the record, you can keep Stax@2 forever by simply having Crucible in play and playing every permanent you draw. You'll skip a round or two when you draw an Armageddon or the Angel you use to win the game, in which case you sac one of your other now-overkill lock pieces. And of course, you can just let the Stax go if you draw a second Smokestack or if Angel/Magus is going to kill them before they recover anyway.

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For the record, you can keep Stax@2 forever by simply having Crucible in play and playing every permanent you draw. You'll skip a round or two when you draw an Armageddon or the Angel you use to win the game, in which case you sac one of your other now-overkill lock pieces. And of course, you can just let the Stax go if you draw a second Smokestack or if Angel/Magus is going to kill them before they recover anyway.

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This is mostly true. Everything you draw will be a permanent, but you'll sometimes hit lands. This will trip you up since you already want to play the land from your graveyard.

You're correct, I forgot to mention them; although that happens a lot less once you're at the point of having run out of Plains.

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Originally Posted by Nihil

I find it just outright absurd to claim that running out of Plains (which does happen) costs you the win more often than once every ten thousand games

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It happens to me, anyway.
Note that I didn't imply "run out of Plains -> loss", I said "draw nothing relevant -> loss". This could be any number of things, including meddlesome opponents.
Also note that I didn't say it's nuts, or even good. I only enquired if anybody had tested it.

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Originally Posted by Nihil

For the record, you can keep Stax@2 forever by simply having Crucible in play and playing every permanent you draw.

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I'm well aware of that. See above. I could chalk my land, land, land, land, land scoop draws down to bad luck (add to that that I'm not guaranteed even three mana post-lock if my opponent has Wastes or I was force to Geddon regardless of Smokestack), but instead I guess I'll just test it some more. Or I could chalk it up to insufficient playskills and still test it :p

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Originally Posted by Nihil

You'll skip a round or two when you draw an Armageddon or the Angel you use to win the game, in which case you sac one of your other now-overkill lock pieces. And of course, you can just let the Stax go if you draw a second Smokestack or if Angel/Magus is going to kill them before they recover anyway.

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That's all obviously true, although I'd like to reiterate that in my testing (admittedly limited to twenty games or so), what happened was mostly
- I ditched MPlains to Mox
- I had other lands in hand that I could play first (in this case MPlains is a dead card until later)
- I had other lands in my graveyard to recur (see above, except it usually gives more options)
- I got it with Flagstones.

On the flip side, it's hard to say if it had any positive effect at all, since the games would have gone differently without it. I know I often wished I could keep up a Smokestack lock for longer than I was able in the past, or I didn't have a real lock because my opponent had been able to deal with some of my permanents or because I drew nothing relevant. It would be a lie, of course, to say that the cipt clause didn't stink badly in the cases you outlined. (Wasteland hurts even more in those cases.)
What I intend to test MPlains for is
- recurring Armageddon and Angels (with Smokestack/Armageddon and Flagstones as a shuffle effect - slow and unreliable as it may be, it still gives me an extra option)
- keeping up Stack at two forever in the face of decks that can potentially visit mass destruction upon enchantments and artifacts given wiggle room (making it problematic to keep sacrificing newly drawn permanents)
- out-stacking opposing Crucibles even if I have drawn/fetched mutiple Plains already
- out-stacking Loam in a reasonable time frame (or keeping up with it long enough to draw an Armageddon in case of Exploration)
Granted, these are all corner cases that allow MPlains to prosper only under special circumstances, arguably best adressed via boarding and metagaming. As I said, I myself am far from convinced.

Quick question: Isn't Flagstones what makes your Magus survive after you have resolved an Armageddon? Why is everyone "only" running 3?

Magus doesn't have to survive and Aramgeddon to be effective. If you 'geddon with a Magus out, even with out a Crucible, Mox, or Flagstones, you'll have wiped the opponent's board of lands and creatures. Combined with other lock pieces, this can be game swinging.

Three Flagstones may be the optimal number due the the tempo loss of when you hit two. Early game mana is essential, you need to put down enough lock pieces to not lose.

"Everyone" != "The last two lists that were posted"

According to DeckCheck.net, the average for recent monowhite Stax lists is 3.54 Flagstones.

Another way for Magus to survive is to simply run Darksteel Citadel It is what I have been doing since long before this thread popped up and it works great.

On Mistveil Plains:

What does it give that balances out the comes into play tapped? Even if nine times out of ten the drawback meant nothing, you need the "put on the bottom" clause to be relevant eight times out of 10 and, with your extremely few shuffle effects, I doubt it will matter greatly 8 times out of one hundred.

In short it takes little away, but gives even less back.

In shorter, not worth it.

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Originally Posted by The Wes

So I'm not sold completely yet on the duskrider and mindcensor in the sb. Duskrider has mostly been there tombstalker, and the fact that I've still never seen a deed hit him. Mindcensor has its good points and bad ones. Its great for hours of fun against fetches, survival, combat tricks, and getting threats into play against control. It just seems like I should be running somethign better, but have yet to find someting that fits.

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I'd suggest either Karmic Justice or Pithing Needle if you are not satisfied with the creatures in your sideboard. Or you could run additional lands so you can increase your landcount after boarding for matchups where you might need to Geddon more than once.
Defense Grids for the times you do play against control or aggro-control might also be a good option but I don't know how common Landstill and the like are in your meta.
The 25 land including 2 Tabernacle concernes me a bit. Maybe you should cut an Oblivion Ring or a Tabernacle for one more manaproducing land (Flagstones no.4) to go up to 24 manaproducing lands. Oh and you should definitely cut a Muse for the 4th Ghostly Prison. 1 mana makes a huge difference against a good Goblins draw (also not being a creature is very valuable preboard).

@Darksteel Citadel
Between 4 Mox Diamond, 4 Crucible, 4 Flagstones (and the option to play a land from your hand after Armageddon sometimes) it has been a long time since I've seen a Magus die because I couldn't pay the upkeep. Darksteel Citadel might help you get back in the game faster after a Geddon or even let you ignore the Geddon completely but imho it is not needed. I'd rather have a Factory or Wasteland instead.

Citadel, Wasteland, and Factory and do have have problems with colored mana at all.

Why NOT run Citadel? It survives Armageddon to allow for a greatly speeded recovery. It has a very insignificant drawback.You stand to gain more than you stand to lose from it.

Now you've got me interested Cait_Sith. Can you post your manabase or your complete decklist because I always struggle with what to take out for the various lands.
For reference here's what I think should always be part of the manabase:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones (yes I think running only 3 is a mistake)
6 Plains

That's 18 lands so far. Now you have 7-8 slots left at most. Normally I play 2 more Plains (especially when I have 3 Exalted Angels and Oblivion Rings maindeck), 2 Wastelands and 3 Factories. The 26th land could be Tabernacle.
With Darksteel Citadel I'm assuming you play 2 of them instead of the additional Plains which is not an option for me because even with 8 Plains I get colorscrewed more often than I'd like.
So the other option (for me at least) would be to cut either Factory/Wasteland or Exalted Angels (reducing the need for white mana so I can then cut Plains). Maybe it's just me being unlucky with colorscrew but anyway as I said I'd rather take Wasteland number 3 and 4 or the last Factory before I'd add a Citadel.

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Originally Posted by Silverdragon

Now you've got me interested Cait_Sith. Can you post your manabase or your complete decklist because I always struggle with what to take out for the various lands.
For reference here's what I think should always be part of the manabase:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones (yes I think running only 3 is a mistake)
6 Plains

That's 18 lands so far. Now you have 7-8 slots left at most. Normally I play 2 more Plains (especially when I have 3 Exalted Angels and Oblivion Rings maindeck), 2 Wastelands and 3 Factories. The 26th land could be Tabernacle.
With Darksteel Citadel I'm assuming you play 2 of them instead of the additional Plains which is not an option for me because even with 8 Plains I get colorscrewed more often than I'd like.
So the other option (for me at least) would be to cut either Factory/Wasteland or Exalted Angels (reducing the need for white mana so I can then cut Plains). Maybe it's just me being unlucky with colorscrew but anyway as I said I'd rather take Wasteland number 3 and 4 or the last Factory before I'd add a Citadel.

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Glad to see someone else going with 4 Flagstones :) It seems solid.

However, could you (or someone else ofc) tell me what is the awesomness with Oblivion Ring? =)

I hope my question isn't to dumb lol =P

It's semi-permanent, versatile removal that has a mana cost that plays nicely with our manabase. Overall, pretty nice to have in your SB for any matchups that have problematic, all-in strategies.

I've done some further testing with Mistveil Plains if anyone's interested, and you guys were right - mostly. I've found that against deck that can a) seriously meddle with your permanent base (anything red, red/green basically, with honorable mentions to Deed/Explosives) and b) lay down a lot of permanents itself (Goblin tokens, Loam/Crucible or whatever, with ETW and Dredge being exceptions due to speed) it does hold its own.
However, seeing as I want to sideboard Suppression Field against Goblins, that leaves Loam, which can be adequately adressed with the proper card choices as well, without making myself more vulnerable to Wastes, even if it's only a bit. (As a sidenote, Countryside Crusher vs mana denial and Ghostly Prison = :D :D :D

@ Oblivion Ring
O-Ring is great because it covers one of Stax' weaknesses, that being its inability to deal with problem permanents. Stax is designed to work through multiple effects stacking up - sometimes the deck just doesn't click the way it has to to deal with a particular permanent. Despite the multitude of lock effects, there's all kind of things that can go wrong, especially if your opponent has access to Ancient Grudge or Shattering Spree postboard or if your draw craps out on you.
For example, I have lost quite a few games because I didn't draw Armageddon in time and Smokestack wasn't enough, or because I wasn't able to destroy my opponent's Moxen. I got beat by a single Jaya and two lands once. I just didn't draw what I needed to upkeep her to death and had already taken grief from Tomb.
Prior to [whatever set O-Ring was in] I was sideboarding Faith's Fetters which has its advantages (can be played ony anything to gain life or shut down a land's ability) but doesn't cover the weak spot as well, imo - it leaves static abilities (Wheel of Sun and Moon) and triggers (Ancient Runes, I guess? oh, I once got beat by a random Boggart Shenanigans) untouched.

Also, I' d be interested where those of you who have Ravages of War bought theirs. Other than ebay. (Fell free to PM me rather than cluttering up the thread.)

Summons(5):
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3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Windborn Muse

Sorceries(5):
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3 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War

Enchantments(5):
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3 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts(20):
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4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
2 Smokestack
2 Tangle Wire

Lands(25):
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6 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Crystal Vein

This is what I think my Armageddon Stax will look like but ofc I will listen if you think something is wrong with it. After understanding how Oblivion Ring works I realise it is key once you decide to throw Smokestack out. But the thing I like about it the most (which has been stated) is that it takes care of random single permanents that the deck can have a hard time with otherwise.

Before I was running 24 lands and it didn't seem to be enough (unlucky?) and so I decided to add another one. I hardly think it will be negative for the deck because it is crucial that you dont miss a single land drop the first 2-3 turns imo. This could really be the difference of getting or losing control in a match. As you can see i'm running 3 Crystal Veins which some of you might not agree with but I really think it deserves it's place. Maybe not as a 3-of but atleast 2. Even if you have to sac it in the start it could power out a 3cc spell which will probably turn out better in the match overall.

I am eager to try Tangle Wire in the deck. It seems solid to me atleast. Not more than 2 tho because to throw it out on turn 1-2 won't make the most use of it. It has a rather funny bonus usage to it aswell (i'm not sure it's good tho lol) and that is to tap Trinisphere with it if you want to throw out a Mox during mid/late game for some special reason.

In my previous list I had 6 Geddons and it seemed a bit to much. You really don't want/need to cast more than 1 each game and therefore I think 5 copies should do since you won't be casting them during early game. After Geddon you got Wasteland should your opponent topdeck to many lands.

Things I am not sure about in the list:

- Windborn Muse
- 2 Smokestacks (Could be 3 but it usually doesn't get useful until late game to throw in the final lock)

I also think Mishra's Factory is a bit interesting. If I didn't use Muse I would probably go with 4 Magus + 2-3 Mishra's.

Any toughts on the list and everything I have mentioned is appreciated big time!

Tangle Wire is like Trinisphere 4-8 to me. If powered out turn 1, it shuts down the game for a few turns, with your opponent feeling the effects more than you (hopefully). After turn 3, it's effectiveness is dampened, even more so than a post-turn 3 Trinisphere (Brainstorms costing 3 mana on turn 4 under a Trinisphere is still great, but not as great as turn 1 Trinisphere -> Time Walk for next 2 turns). But, there have been numerous arguments against as it makes the winnable matchups even more so, but doesn't do anything to help your unfavorable matchups significantly.

@The Wes: if you want to run a deck with more agains a high aggro meta, I still think Windborn Muse is too weak. Run 4 Ghostly Prisons, perhaps even throw in some Tundra's and add Propaganda. You should also look in to Peacekeeper.

@Caith Sith: I must say I hate match-ups with Darksteel Citadel. But on the other hand; I feel the 'traditional' lands are stronger. It might be a very good idea if you plan to run 6-8 Geddons.

@Silverdragon and Melwis: I hate 4 Flagstones, I think 4 is a mistake lol, but I guess we have to agree to disagree :cool:

@Melwis: Oblivion Ring is preferrably a sideboard card; however I still run them mainboard until I can get my hands on Ravages of War. Have a look at my list a couple of pages back, I still think it's a good list if you have no Ravages of War :)

@Arsenal: Tangle Wire has always been a nice addition to any Stax deck, but what would you replace it for?

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

@Silverdragon and Melwis: I hate 4 Flagstones, I think 4 is a mistake lol, but I guess we have to agree to disagree :cool:

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I think i'm actually going to cut one and add in Darksteel Citadel as a 1-of. The reasoning behind this is because I played 2 Exalted Angels in the deck not long ago (thus making me want as much white mana as possible). With Angels out I no longer need more than one white mana source in the field (which I think shouldn't be a problem) therefore i'm cutting one :)

P.S: I do think however that having 4 Flagstones and 1 Citadel would hardly count as something bad for the deck. Having these will turn your Armageddons into "Destroy target opponents lands" which is a good enough reason to include them yes?

Altough I might be overexaggerating just a little bit but still almost ;)

Sorry if it was already mentioned...anyone else here find Gaddock Teeg largely annoying for this deck ? No Stax, no Geddons, no Chalice...anything boardable except Oblivion Ring possible ?

How many win conditions is considered to be optimal when running Stax? I mean, if everything turns out in your favor and you get your opponent locked down, there is really no difference in swinging for 2 every turn (Magus) or 4 (Angel).

Currently i'm thinking of going with 4 Magus's and 2 Mishra's (enough?)because with a Magus out I still only have to pay 1 mana even if I have Mishra in play aswell and Mishra + Crucible is sweet :)

@Georgjorge: Both Oblivion Ring and Powder Keg (standard SB fare) can take care of Teeg. Obviously, though, how many of them and what cards to take out depend on the deck that is running him.

A simple example: if it's UGW Thresh, you probably prefer Powder Keg so you can take out 'Goyfs and/or Mages as well (though, once they're out of FoW, you must have quite a bad draw in order to lose to just Teeg; if they have Teeg they almost definitely don't have Explosives). If it is, say, a green/white midrange deck, Oblivion Ring can deal with whatever random stuff they have (Vial, etc.). If 4C Landstill is boarding him, you probably should side Ring, and pray that you have a REALLY busted hand.

@Melwis: Exalted Angel isn't just a win condition, she is effectively a lock piece, as much as Ghostly Prison.

The premise of White Stax is to make it as costly as possible for the opponent to attack with his creatures (whether they're Goblins, Goyfs, or even Mishra's Factories). In that perspective, an Angel is like a Maze of Ith, more or less nullifying one attacker every time she swings - an especially desirable effect when the rest of your cards make it difficult for the opponent to attack with multiple creatures. Kor Haven works so well for the very same reason.

Synergy is key in Stax; currently the only maindeck cards that don't contribute to the "overtaxing" plan are Chalice of the Void (which is just too amazing with this mana base) and, if you want, Oblivion Ring (which can save you from random cards you hate to see, like opposing Crucibles - though personally, I still don't find it worth the slots). Every other card increases the price for your opponent to actually deal damage to you, and Angel is one of the best at that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

In that perspective, an Angel is like a Maze of Ith, more or less nullifying one attacker every time she swings - an especially desirable effect when the rest of your cards make it difficult for the opponent to attack with multiple creatures. Kor Haven works so well for the very same reason.

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It's worth noting that even when she doesn't race or at least nullify creatures, she keeps you out of Tomb-related trouble. I've been on the lookout for other win conditions for like forever, even considering Oversoul very briefly, or at least lock pieces strong enough to more than balance her loss, but I've always returned to at least a duo of Angels. I've found you really can't go over the magic CMC of 4 because of Armageddon and City of Traitors (I was trying Voidstone Gargoyle at the time).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

and, if you want, Oblivion Ring (which can save you from random cards you hate to see, like opposing Crucibles - though personally, I still don't find it worth the slots). Every other card increases the price for your opponent to actually deal damage to you, and Angel is one of the best at that.

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I've found O-Ring to be increasingly effective the more random stuff comes up. I would put it in the side at best if I knew to expect only top tier variants. As you said, Stax makes it difficult for an opponent to attack in swarms, but if a local opponent is trying out Korlash or Reanimator, Powder Keg is underwhelming.
A similar thing is true should your local opponents sideboard heavily against you, especially Serenity, Sacred Ground, and BWish targets.

I took 8th out of 100 at the pt hollywood side event, here's a real quick report:

My list:
Maindeck:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
6 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Wasteland
2 Exalted Angel
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

Sideboard:
3 Defense Grid
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Humility
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Suppression Field

Notice: No O-rings; this deck can't trade 1 for 1, My sideboard was pretty awsome all day, I almost always sided out angels. I think I did 20 damage only one game all day while the rest were locked oppenents scooping.

Round 1; Italian pro playing Fetchland Tendrils
G1: As we shuffle I see a tendrils, I win the roll and open with chalice at 0 (felt a little like a bitch becuase I knew he was playing combo or I would have opening chalice @ 1) + crucible with a wasteland in hand. He can't do too much with out his explosive 0 drops and I eventually stick some more lock pieces after I geddon away his few basics that he fetched.

G2: On the play I have a turn 1 3-sphere that is duressed away, I believe I drop a t-crypt and a chalice at 0. He ramps up with dark rits and threshed cabal rits baiting my crypt, I don't bite and he goes to IGG, I crypt response (at this point he has about 6 mana floating) he says ok, IGG resolves he discards his hand (infernal tutor) returns it and tutors tendrils FTW.

g3: I get chalice at 0 followed by a bunch more lock pieces and keep him off any mana. He scoops.

1-0
2-1

Round 2: Fish
g1: This is such a good matchup as everything I cast is a bomb against him. I stick some stuff and eventually get smokestack to eat all his perminants.
g2: No sideboarding, same as game 1

2-0
4-1

Round 3: UWb Landstill
G1: I mull to 6 with a gassy 1-lander and a mox. If I can juuuuust rip a land....nope, not for 3 turns. But landstill doesn't have the fastest clock. I soon start drawing lands and after baiting some c-spells with a trinisphere etc, I stick a crucible and 'geddon. I win shortly after
g2: I side in defense grids, suppression fields, and seals of cleansing. I think a turn 1 defense grid is forced, but I do resolve one shortly after, it's too taxing on his manabase and I win soon after.
3-0\
6-1

Round 4: STAX mirror...shit
G1
He opens flagstones and I'm hoping for death and taxes or white weenie or shit anything else. I open land, mox, chalice at 1. He plays E. Explosives and blows up my mox and chalice. A battle over resolving a crucible and keeping it on the table occurs and he eventually wins the battle and I scoop as I can't keep anything on the board.
g2: I side in seals of cleansing and tormods crypts. I come out strong with a very quick crucible and smokestack. He however has return to dust to kill both of them, who plans for the mirror? He sticks a crucible and some white spellshaper that is discard a card destroy target artifact or enchantment...shit. He exausts his hand and 'geddons. Next turn with no lands I drop crypt and activate taking all his land. He still has the advantage and does eventually win anyway.
3-1
6-3

Round 4: UGb Thresh
g1: I stick a trinisphere and do what this deck does against thresh, smash it.
g2: I resolve a geddon, but he has to dark confidants on the table, they do 20 damage to him as I have a ghostly prison out and he can't swing for a few turns. However, he did beat me down to 2 and the following turn would kill me, he was at 6 and revealed FOW and thirst for Knowledge of the confidants...awsome.

4-1
8-3

Round 5: Dragon Stompy
G1: He plays turn 1 magus of the moon. Eh, my turn 1 trinisphere wouldn't have been that good anyway. He then drops a morph (raiders) and another magus. I just can't find the right pieces and he beats for the win

g2. My hand is awsome, Magus of the T, g-prison, geddon and enough mana to make it happen. I let him resolve a couple threats then drop magus and geddon. He loses his board and can't recover.

g3: We both mull to 6, he exausts his hand for turn 1 Pit Dragon. I play nothing and pass, he beats for 10, I drop suppression field, he beats me to 2. I drop g-prison and lose.
4-2
9-5

Round 6: French Pro with Belcher
This is an old school belcher build with no ETW.
G1: He is on the play and opens with turn 1 land grant revealing some gas and Spoils of the vault, I joke with him about spoiling for 20, he fetches a bayou. My turn I drop wasteland and waste it, in response he spoils for belcher, revealing 20 cards...GG.
G2: He still has no idea what I'm playing and drops a turn 1 birds of paradise and a LED. I play turn 1 chalice at 0 and something else. Eventually I get a 3-sphere on the board and am beating with a factory. He draws his bayou to get to 3 mana and plays welder. Soon he begins welding out my chalices and 3 spheres for mox diamonds. He goes off and wins.
g3: I have turn 2 3-sphere and risk that he won't win turn 1 as his build seems slower. I doesn't do much and I drop turn two trinisphere. I soon drop chalices, 2 suppression fields, crucible, and lots of other locks. He scoops.
5-2
11-6

Round 8 Bomberman
g1: I have been complimenting him all day on playing bomberman as It's a deck I really like. I drop some lock pieces and a trinisphere followed by a geddon and a smokestack, he scoops.
g2: He keepers into darksteel collosus. I have the magus and geddon in my hand, I drop magus with 4 mana available, get beat for 11, need to rip a land off the top or die, I die.
g3: too many lock pieces and 3 geddons later I finally deal 20 damage.
6-2
13-7

I take 8th place out of 98 which nets me 6 packs of shadowmoor.

Great Job Gambit. What are your thoughts on your sideboard and the singleton Horizon Canopy? Would you make any changes to the sideboard or do you feel that it is optimal for a random metagame?

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Originally Posted by Arsenal_Fan

Great Job Gambit. What are your thoughts on your sideboard and the singleton Horizon Canopy? Would you make any changes to the sideboard or do you feel that it is optimal for a random metagame?

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Sideboard was awsome all day, I was expecting more landstill which was giving me fits with deeds during playtesting, so a lot of my board was for battling that. Humilitys came in against D-stompy, but I never drew one. I sided in suppression fields a bunch and really liked them. I often sided out the 2 angels and just went for the lock.

The one of horizon canopy was good all day, I basically just cycled it each time I got it out, with a crucible it can be great as recurring draw. At this point, it stays.

Gambit, congrats on the finish. You mentioned you don't like going 1-for-1 with O-Rings but you're willing to do so out of the side with Seal of Cleansing. Your list is tight though and I would agree it looks optimal for an unknown meta, seeing how you run 4 each of cards that wreck aggro (Magus, Ghostly Prison) and likewise for combo (3sphere, Chalice). I think in a more known metagame you could tune the list to fit the Oblivion Rings. Trading 1-for-1 is worth it when their 1 is a bomb (e.g. Tombstalker, Dreadnought, opposing Crucibles, Deed if played without mana to activate open). But hey, your results speak for themselves.

Gambit, I noticed some unorthodox card choices that your opponents played; Fetchland Tendrils & Duress, Stax (mono-white presumably) & Engineered Explosives, and UGB Thresh & Thirst for Knowledge (they run enough artifacts to support this?). What other things did you notice re: opponent card choices?