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Samurai of the Pale Curtain is probably the most underrated card in the deck. He eats goblins and mongeese all day, stops Bridges from Below from triggering, removes Ichorids from the game, hurts Survival decks, sometimes shrinks goyfs and makes threshold a little harder to achieve. A must for the Ichorid matchup and useful vs Goblins and Thresh.
Knight of the Meadowgrain is an option, but an inferior one. I'd rather have Knight of the Holy Nimbus, and I don't even run him.
It's still pretty early, but has anyone else tried out Ethersworn Canonist as something other than just a storm hoser?
Also, like with all the other hosers in this deck, taking a small sample size and saying that such and such a creature is subpar is pretty useless. I mean this for the tried and true ones only here. Since most of the critters ever tried in this deck have been really good at some times, and something like a vanilla at others, you just have to stick to what works in your meta. I bet the new knight could be good against stuff that kills your lands. But is that more common than graveyard decks?
your right, i talked alot with a some friends of mine, and epochasite is just a big beater, samurai is good.
Personally i think we need 2 drops. my favorite deck to play, is my casual soldier deck, i play it for years now and improved it along the way. My soldier deck plays almost the same as this deck, relying on combat tricks to win. It could play defencive with these tricks, but also had a aggo mode in case that was needed. With alot of 3 drops and trick cards, we dont have that. thats why i think some good 2 drops are neceserry.
Also, i want to enter the Dutch open Championships with this deck. and i expect alot of combo thanks to addie (Ad Nauseam). thats why i play glowriders and knight of mediograin main. (instead of oblivion rings) so i am thinking of playing this list:
// Lands
11 [9E] Plains (3)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [LG] Karakas
// Creatures
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
3 [CHP] Serra Avenger
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [LE] Glowrider
3 [LRW] Knight of Meadowgrain
2 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [EX] Cataclysm
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [WL] Abeyance
and 4 more sideboard cards. which im not sure about yet, does anyone have a good idea for that?
btw :) goblin matchup is very good, played 5-1 against it yesterday.
What about this sideboard card:
Wheel of Sun and Moon
it improves:
Solidarity
TES
Painters combo
ichorid
aggro loam
Landstill
Thresh
reanimator
+ any other mill or graveyard based deck
against alot of these matches, cataclysm can be boarded out for wheel.
Judging from the list of match ups you think this card will affect, I'm not sure you've given this a lot of thought.
Let's go over it step by step.
Solidarity/Painter's combo: Strictly worse than True Believer, which is already meh at best. You don't hurt their setup, you just cut them off their wincon... which means they'll just have to bounce/REB it once they're ready to win. Terrible.
Ichorid: You may steal a game just thanks to the WTF?! effect and your opponent having sideboarded for another hate piece, but once your opponent knows what to expect it won't help you much. Cabal Therapy or Ray of Revelation (or Chain of vapor?) will take care of this. Meh.
TES: .... I suppose this does cut them off IGG. Tough break. Now they'll just have to Diminishing Returns (or Ad Nauseam?) ftw. Useless.
Loam: Maybe the one that makes the most sense out of your list... but Loam has so many ways to handle this, I doubt it'll hurt them that much. Then again, I don't play loam, so what do I know. Still, strictly worse than any other GY hate?
Reanimator: I don't know reanimator. Still, unless I'm mistaken they only need 1 beater, so turn 1 Putrid Imp, discard in resp should circumvent this?
Landstill/Thresh: What? Strictly worse than Crypt, which already sucks terribly against Thresh. And... yeah, you're preventing Landstill from recurring Factories if they do run Crucible. Still, pretty useless.
I'm not sure about every MU but it really seems terrible. Besides, if you're dedicating sideboard slots to GY hate (which most D&T lists don't do), WHY would you play this over anything else? Crypt and Relic make a ton more sense.
I have a slightly more favorable verdict on Wheel. I run it as a one-of in my ETutor list, but I wouldn't recommend it in straight D&T. Relic of Progenitus is the more versatile GY hate, and I run 2 of those myself.
Wheel is better when it's important to stop things going to the GY at all, but it's worse if you actually care what's in it. For example:
*Ichorid's zombie token generation
*Affinity's modular mechanic and Disciple
*Countryside Crusher's growing in Aggro-Loam
It also SHUTS DOWN LOAM. Completely. Yes, they can wish for an answer or whatever, but making them spend wishes on hate is a good thing since they also use wishes for business and keeping their deck from falling apart.
I just wanted to comment quickly on this too. I've tried it in a D&T-ish variant and I'm pretty happy with it. I run 3x ETutor + 1x Canonist in the main, with the extra copies in the board.Quote:
It's still pretty early, but has anyone else tried out Ethersworn Canonist as something other than just a storm hoser?
It adds a little bit in the Thresh MU, but most importantly (besides anti-Storm of course), it puts those fast tempo decks more on par with the vial white weenie plan. For example, Eva Green can't Dark Ritual in to a turn 2 Tombstalker after having robbed you of StP etc.
So basically it slows down other decks just enough for you to deal with them as you had planned. I love it, and the fact that you can play around it pretty well yourself (with Vial, Flickerwisp, Stonecloaker etc).
And it's not to be underestimated against Painter when you run 4x StP as well. Since you run StP, Painter is forced to play Grindstone first and then servant. Then, they must mill you on their turn. Now, if they are forced to REB Wheel first, you can StP servant in response.
I think all this makes it worth 1 SB slot if you play with tutors. Otherwise, just go with Relic - it's awesome.
Why dont just run some true believers then? Unlike glowrider, they dont hurt you at all and he is even a turn faster (Turn 3 answer to combo wont give you such a big chance, you know). The only downside to believer is that it easier to bounce and that it doesnt stop EtW. But since TES has acces to ADN, EtW isnt played that much anymore becouse you will be able to win with tendrill more often. And as I said, Glowrider's cmc makes it way less impressive for TES.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pienterekaak
Another point: Doesnt Grunt work crappy together with Samurai? I'd say play Grunt ór Samuarai, but both seems a bit shaky..
A bit, which is why you keep one of them in the sideboard and only side it in when you're playing a deck that puts a lot of cards in the graveyard, or when you really need to affect the graveyard.
well my choise for glowriders was indeed becouse TB doesnt really do anything. it almost does nothing against non storm combo decks, becouse all the combo decks have maindeck answer to the guy (with wishes).
Glowrider is harder to get rid of (since they need to dig for answers, and glowrider prevents that) and is decent against other decks (and as a free bonus, it brings the tax back in death and taxes :p). i havnt got any trouble from it myself untill now. so ill keep testing it. only had it against me once, and then i just use stonecloacker to put it back in my hand again at EOT and do my thing next turn. (also, depending on the situation, it can be a good creature after clysm)
and yes, grunt and samurai dont work that well together. thats why i only run 2 of each, in my opinion you cant run more than 2 grunts main, even without samurai on the board i had a hard time maintaining them, since almost nothing goes to my graveyard. so are you suggesting to take 2 grunts out (since samurai can help at game 1 vs combo) and put those to the side?
and how many samurai should i play main then, couse they are bad with flagstones too.
btw, thank you for your opinion about the deck, i could really use any advise to make my list stronger.
The Samurai/Flagstones interaction isn't a big deal, especially since Cataclysm has moved to the sideboard in most lists. The rare game where you're stuck with an extra Flagstones in your hand because of SotPC isn't worth running an inferior creature. Besides, you can always Flickerwisp or Stonecloaker the SotPC if you're desperate.
Hey, you guys know the trick you can do by Vialing in a Flickerwisp in response to the comes-into-play effect of Oblivion Ring, right?
Anyway, does that work when you play a Flickerwisp and then Vial in a Stonecloaker in response to it's remove-from-game ability? Can we keep the permanent out of the game this way?
No, because Flickerwisp's ability doesn't care if Flickerwisp is still in play when it resolves.
Maybe a little off topic. But I was wondering if anyone has ever considered Guardian of the Guildpact as a pretty much 100% surefire way of pushing through damage?
slap a jitte on this thing and it's gg! :)
but seriously maybe 1/2 tested in the side. it's like the only (non-flying) creature that never fears to attack ito a goyf
At four mana I don't think he will see play.Quote:
Originally Posted by whitescorpion
I was wondering if D+T should be more of a WG deck. I've been tinkering around with it and it shines with Teeg and Goyf.
// Lands
4 Karakas
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Rishadan Port
1 Forest
3 Plains
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
// Creatures
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Stonecloaker
4 Serra Avenger
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Figure of Destiny
// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
//SB
3 Cataclysm
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Glowrider
4 Orim's Chant
The deck shines with three different maindeck legendary creatures. Cataclysms had to come out because of the poor synergy with Teeg. FOD worked out really good for vial at 1.
Mana Tithe maindeck would be really good, but I don't know how I would fit it in.
I've been working on improving the Landstill and combo MU and I think I've finally found a list I'm happy with. It features two things that have been discussed before without really reaching a consencus: Wayfarer and Tutor.
LANDS (22)
12 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Dust Bowl
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Wasteland
CREATURES (21)
-1cc
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Weathered Wayfarer
-2cc
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Epochrasite
1 Ethersworn Canonist
-3cc
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
SPELLS (17)
-1cc
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
-2cc
1 Runed Halo
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-3cc
1 Aura of Silence
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Cataclysm
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Abolish
2 Mine Excavation
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
You know how Aether Vial is what makes the Landstill MU winnable? Well, Weathered Wayfarer does pretty much the same thing. It too brings in land removal or threat under standstill while thwarting counters. Wayfarer also lets us run juicy 1-ofs like Maze of Ith to help against other MUs, and works extremely well with the single Crucible in the ETutor (for instance sac Flagstones to Dust Bowl -> fetch Mistveil Plains + repeat to draw out plains; replay horizon canopy to draw cards etc).
Epochrasite is such a great 1-of when you play 4x Vial + 4x Flickerwisp + 3x Tutor in the main. He's a tough threat to deal with - only StP works, and there's always the Vial+Flickerwisp to prevent that. Recurring the singleton Mishra (through crucible or grunt/mistveil + wayfarer) also spells trouble for control decks.
The ETutor toolbox gives you game 1 options against every deck in the field:
*Ethersworn Canonist: Fetch as soon as you realize you're playing against storm combo. Good against Eva Green, Thresh and Landstill too, to name a few (though hardly fetch worthy in these MUs).
*Runed Halo: Covers A LOT! Combo win cons (belcher, tendrils, grindstone etc), scepter/chant lock, Pro:W or shrouded dudes like Troll Ascetic, expected discard/burn - or just use it to take out a creature such as Tarmogoyf.
*Umezawa's Jitte: Crucial against burn game 1, but useful against almost anything. Don't expect this to help much games 2-3 against burn though (they almost certainly have SB artifact hate). CoP: Red however, will.
*Aura of Silence: Very good against Deed, Disk and to a lesser extent Explosives. Silver bullet game 1 against enchantress/affinity/stax. Also very useful to just remove something, like Counterbalance or Needle.
*Crucible of Worlds: Good against LD to protect Karakas, but just generally neat with Wayfarer and the land toolbox.
*Ghostly Prison: Game 1 silver bullet against Ichorid! As always, they can steal games if they get 20+ power on the board turn 1-2, but all Ichorid players know that GP/Propaganda is bad news game 1 (that's why Ray of Revelation comes in games 2-3, but then you have more hate). Of course, GP is good against almost every aggro deck - often even more useful than Cataclysm. Also a silver bullet against Empty the Warrens.
*Oblivion Ring: Not really needed against any deck, but not really bad against any deck either (except perhaps burn). Against Landstill, this and Aura of Silence are your only game 1 outs to Humility (since it thwarts Mangara). Anyway, too good not to include since you can 2-for-1 it with Flickerwisp.
The sideboard features Boseiju (!) together with Cataclysm, Abolish and Mine Excavation - all of these hate on Landstill, but of course have lots of uses in other MUs as well. I side in Mine Excavation in maybe 50% of all matches, since opponents always side in art/ench hate if they can. This also makes me prefer Crypt over Relic, since I can recur it. Wheel is a wicked card against anything with Dredge, and is good against the Modular mechanic in affinity too (it's much like a stronger SotPC that works with ETutor/Excavation).
I'm extremely happy with this deck now, even its performance against Landstill, combo and ichorid. It's all about tweaking it to your specific meta, and it will run like a well-oiled machine. Kudos to Finn and all you others who keep this archetype alive.
P.S. If you think this list is very different from the standard version, it really isn't. For example, instead of running 3x Oblivion Ring, I run
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Aura of Silence
1x Runed Halo
1x Maze of Ith
Instead of 3x Cataclysm main deck, I run these tutor targets for mass permanent control, and keep the clysms in the board:
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Aura of Silence
Instead of Stonecloaker and SotPC, I have Ghostly Prison for Ichorid hate (with more hate in the SB), and Wayfarer to give me more effective Karakas slots to compensate for Stonecloaker's bouncing etc. The added benefit of running tutors is that you get more versatility without loosing consistency. But it makes an already complex deck even harder to play since you now have two toolboxes to consider as well...
Good to see your ideas incorporated in a D&T shell, urdjur. This list looks very interesting and refreshing.
I have also been advocating for the inclusion of wayfarer for a while now. He helps in problematic MU (great against landstill for eg) and adds alot of versatility to the deck.
I am not as enthusiastic on the enlighted tutor idea, however. The CD seems too harmfull against decks with counters or ways to deal with your silver bullets (ie around 75% of the field, I would say). But I guess I should give it another try. It DOES help alot against aggro and combo.
Sticking with your concepts, I would still make a few comments on your list.
I would like to see some more wastelands in there. That's the n°1 reason why I play wayfarer myself. You can argue dust bowl somehow compensates for wasteland n° 2-4, but it doesn't actually allow the same crazy plays (eg preventing a landstill player to get past his 2nd land while droping threats through vial). Other than that, you land toolbox seems fine (I'm not sure if mistveil plains is worth the trouble but well).
You play 17 1cc spells (amongst which 10 are permanents). Apart from the mana-curve problem, I think chalice and EE must be major banes. Why not try epochrasite n° 2-4 instead of isamaru? It really works well with vial, flickerwisp and cataclysm in the SB. In fact, I think it could possibly replace SotPC in classic D&T lists, but I'm drifting away.
Without SotPC, you could maybe try the 3rd grunt MD. It's such a great cards against many of the top decks at the moment (and you're missing some GY-hate MD without stonecloaker).
Is the 4th flickerwisp really needed? Do you not miss stonecloaker in that slot (just a question, I'm not too sure on this myself).
About the toolbox, I don't think I like runed halo (too defensive anyways), aura of silence and ghostly prison MD. They are all great cards but do nothing against certain decks, so I think they belong to the SB. You could include needle (you should have one in the SB at the very least) and relic of progenitus (despite the few disynergies), however.
Not much to say on the SB, except that I don't really see what abolish is doing here. Is it really better than o.ring competing for that slot?
Many good questions! I have rationales for them all, but YMMV. Here goes:
You're right, but look more closely:Quote:
I am not as enthusiastic on the enlighted tutor idea, however. The CD seems too harmfull against decks with counters or ways to deal with your silver bullets (ie around 75% of the field, I would say). But I guess I should give it another try. It DOES help alot against aggro and combo.
*All the MD silver bullets are directed towards decks that do NOT run counters.
*The cards that DO work against counters (Vial, Wayfarer) are run in redundant copies.
*The silver bullets are redundant. I wouldn't actually play ETutor against Threshold if it can be helped, but I wouldn't be unhappy to just draw AoS (against counter/top), ORing, Runed Halo etc. just as I wouldn't mind to draw an StP - it's all good Tarmogoyf hate.
*The additional SB silver bullets, again, are against decks that can't handle them. For example, Burn will not handle CoP:Red 90% of the time, and goblins have a hard time at it too. You can't rely on just silver bullets in the SB, because it only works against a few decks - but against those, it is a bye. Against the others, you need redundancy.
That would require you to be on the play, play T1 wasteland+vial, and then follow up with Wayfarer. The thing is, T1 vial in itself is very bad for landstill, so that sounds like win more. It's a neat 3 card combo when it happens, but is it worth giving up 3 more white sources?Quote:
I would like to see some more wastelands in there. That's the n°1 reason why I play wayfarer myself. You can argue dust bowl somehow compensates for wasteland n° 2-4, but it doesn't actually allow the same crazy plays (eg preventing a landstill player to get past his 2nd land while droping threats through vial).
I don't fear landstill hitting 2 mana, I fear them hitting 4 mana. Dustbowl is actually stronger than Wasteland, not only because all your lands turn into wastelands, but because you can use it with Flagstones for free. The 1x Wasteland is run for redundancy so I can ignore Pithing Needle on Dustbowl. It also gives the option to destroy a land early, but I'd really prefer to hit 3-4 mana anyway so I can do a recursive lock.
It's not so hot in your hand, true, but tutoring for it with Flagstones (sacced to Dustbowl) makes the CIPT moot. It's a bit mana intensive to use for recursion, but I like to have it there. I'm a bit undecided though: when I take it out, I miss it. When I put it in, I sometimes grone over having it as my only white source in my opening hand.Quote:
(I'm not sure if mistveil plains is worth the trouble but well).
T1 Chalice@1 when I'm on the draw sucks. On the play, I can either tutor for Aura of Silence in response, or drop T1 Vial. At least, I have 5 3cc outs to Chalice in the main, meaning it slows me down but doesn't kill me.Quote:
You play 17 1cc spells (amongst which 10 are permanents). Apart from the mana-curve problem, I think chalice and EE must be major banes.
EE@1 is often a 2-for-1. I have no reason to drop 2 Vials, or 2 Isamarus, and the latter can be save with Karakas. But yeah, killing Vial + Wayfarer on T3 does happen. EE@2 can be seriously delayed by Aura of Silence, backing up with land destruction in the late game. I've also taken care to spread out the cc's in the deck, so that there are about 10 permanents @1,2,3 each, to minimize EE damage.
Still, all this considered, I wouldn't call it a "major bane".
Having a nice spread among creature cc's is important to optimize Vial's efficiency. Also, Isamaru is almost as good against control with Karakas as Epochrasite is. The real problem however would be supporting 4x Epochrasite. One as a tutor target is perfect with 8 "outs" to grow him. Running 4 would be like running 4 force of will in a deck with 8 other blue cards - he'd be a 1/1 for 2 most of the time. I almost never have that problem now. If I have Vial/Wisp, I fetch or play him. If I don't, I save the tutor for something else.Quote:
Why not try epochrasite n° 2-4 instead of isamaru? It really works well with vial, flickerwisp and cataclysm in the SB. In fact, I think it could possibly replace SotPC in classic D&T lists, but I'm drifting away.
It could work with Epochrasite #2 in the sideboard to bring in with the clysms though. That would probably be supported.
I am, that's true, but in the MUs where that particular GY-hate is relevant (Landstill and Ichorid mostly), I have taken steps to compensate. Playing 3 grunts MD means that I'll occasionally sit with 2 unplayable threats against some decks. Adding a singleton Stonecloaker would probably be better, but what to take out for it? I find nothing I'm willing to ditch for him.Quote:
Without SotPC, you could maybe try the 3rd grunt MD. It's such a great cards against many of the top decks at the moment (and you're missing some GY-hate MD without stonecloaker).
How I've anguished over the correct number of cloakers/wisps! They are somewhat overlapping, but both have specific strength/weaknesses depending on what else you run. Here's the gist:Quote:
Is the 4th flickerwisp really needed? Do you not miss stonecloaker in that slot (just a question, I'm not too sure on this myself).
*Epochrasite = focus on wisps. Wisp+Epochrasite is good even without Vial, and Stonecloaker + Epochrasite is just bad, unless you have vial@2 (not likely) and opponent is using StP.
*Ethersworn Canonist = focus on wisps. As Finn observed, Canonist halves the effectiveness of Stonecloaker. Playing that creature again is all you can do the next round if Canonist is in play. Also, Vialing in Wisp targeting your own Canonist lets you bypass him momentarily, which can set your opponent's calculations way off :)
*Optimizing ORing = focus on wisps: If you run lots of ORings or have ETutor, you can more often 2-for-1 your opponent with it if you run the maximum number of wisps.
*Protecting non-creature permanents = focus on wisps: If you rely on non-creature permanents (like ETutor decks do), Vial+Flickerwisp can protect them from spot removal, wheras Stonecloaker can't.
however,
*Optimizing Mangara = focus on cloakers: Stonecloaker doesn't need Vial to save Mangara when you don't have Karakas (this is less important when you run Wayfarer).
*Protect creature permanents = focus on cloakers: Same rational here.
*You need the graveyard hate = focus on cloakers: Obviously.
So there you have it. The final consideration is also that Stonecloaker can target Flickerwisp and vice versa! So if you run 4 Flickerwisp and think that's just grand, you might as well run 1-2x Stonecloaker too, just because it's a good card that might let you reuse a wisp effect. And with a cloaker in play, you could wisp it and put the wisp back in your hand end of turn etc. I'd never cut a wisp for stonecloaker in this particular list however. (Tangent: I also think running 3 cloakers is pretty dangerous unless you have, say, at least 24 creatures - none of which you dislike picking up to your hand).
Bottom line: I wouldn't mind running 1-2 Stonecloakers, but I can't find the room.
Runed Halo affects every deck. It's even broader than StP, and there's no argument to not have it MD... Aura of Silence - true, there might be an occasional deck that includes no artifacts or enchantments, but I think they are about as rare as MUs where StP is useless. Ghostly Prison is good against pretty much every deck that runs 16+ creatures (including some Threshold builds), and works against EtW (where StP doesn't help) and gives me a game 1 against Ichorid (but on its own it wouldn't help games 2-3) - all these things qualifies for 1 MD slot I think.Quote:
About the toolbox, I don't think I like runed halo (too defensive anyways), aura of silence and ghostly prison MD. They are all great cards but do nothing against certain decks, so I think they belong to the SB.
Someone will probably smack me for this, but I've tried Pithing Needle and I'm unimpressed. It's a great card for many other decks - it's Trinket Mage's #1 trinket. But mono white has so many better ways to handle permanents - it's what we do best after all.Quote:
You could include needle (you should have one in the SB at the very least) and relic of progenitus (despite the few disynergies), however.
Pithing Needle is expected and almost all decks can handle artifacts game one. And you know it's only getting worse games 2-3, because they WILL board in artifact removal. There's also the problem of running all the best Pithing targets yourself! Vial? Wasteland? Mishra? And you also have to anticipate the problem. What if you pithe Deed, and he drops EE instead? Then it would have been lots better to drop Aura of Silence instead - a much tougher card to deal with.
Pithing Needle belongs in a deck that doesn't have better SB answers, doesn't risk pithing itself and doesn't advertise lots of artifacts game 1. This deck doesn't fit that bill.
Relic vs. Crypt is a tough choice. As long as you run Mine Excavation, I'd go with Crypt, mostly since you have so many ways to handle Tarmogoyf already.
I don't know if the other D&T player's have noticed, but when you run 4x Vial and 3x ORing + Jitte etc, people board in Krosan Grip and friends. I think it's a mistake to run additional copies of enchantments/artifacts in the board, when there's an instant/sorcery that will probably do just as well.Quote:
Not much to say on the SB, except that I don't really see what abolish is doing here. Is it really better than o.ring competing for that slot?
The only thing ORing has on Abolish is the possibility for creature spot removal. This is not necessary since the MD features:
4x StP
3x Mangara
1x Maze of Ith (+3 Wayfarer)
1x Oblivion Ring (+3 Enlightened Tutor)
+flickerwisp (against dreadnought), bouncable blockers (isamaru), non-targeted control (runed halo), mass creature control (ghostly prison, jitte + clysm SB) and several 4/4s or flying vigilant 3/3s to deal with smaller dudes.
Abolish, otoh, is an instant that can - for instance - kill scepter/chant lock or equipment on equipping, AND can be used with Boseiju if hard cast, OR cast turn 0 against various shenanigans. I think it's a really strong complement to mangara and ORing/AoS.
Phew, that took a long while to write, but I'm happy that I had to put my thoughts down in words. Basically, I wouldn't mind fitting Stonecloaker in the main somewhere, but I'm not really sure what to cut. I'm pretty fine without him though.
I think your toolbox is well thought and pretty optimal, but the fact stands that against decks playing counters you will have a bunch of sub-optimal cards (tutor + part of the toolbox). Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you are playing cards that have a variable impact depending on the MU (the toolbox cards obviously, but also tutor and wayfarer themselves), rather than having (or trying to have) versatile cards that are solid (but not great) in most MUs. Now, I'm not saying this is necessarly a bad thing, but you have to realize it does make the deck somehow less consistent (if you draw the wrong cards for a certain MU, or if the good cards get detroyed/discarded/whatever).Quote:
Originally Posted by urdjur
That was only an ideal situation example, but even at 3/4/5 lands on their side and even without vial on yours, I find wayfarer + waste a great tool against landstill (and other non-basic control decks, in fact).Quote:
Originally Posted by urdjur
You forgot to mention it's also great to recover from sweepers, something that D&T has always had a problem with. It is also one of the only 2-drop you can actually play on turn 2, which smoothes out the curve.Quote:
Originally Posted by urdjur
You forgot to mention loam decks, which is the 1st reason to play stonecloaker imo (grunt is also decent in this MU). Also, with all the goyfs around, having an extra grunt is rarely a bad thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by urdjur
Not necessarly. It also means you can play/vial stonecloaker in resp to an anti-creature (on canonist or another target) and your opponent won't be able to respond to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by urdjur
I do agree with you that it's either wisp OR cloaker (in your build, not the classic D&T one). Your have enough 3cc spells, and running 1-2 random cloakers seems a bit janky.
It does, but it's also alot more defensive than stp. I guess that you can make an argument for it since you run 8 flyers, but I'm still not sure about MDing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by urdjur
Do you see alot of thresh builds with 16+ creatures? oOQuote:
Originally Posted by urdjur
It is true that it's rarely useless (although quite often sub-optimal I would guess), but with the mana-denial strategy as a complement it might earn its MD slot.
So what? If you can't avoid krosan grip, you might as well disregard it and play the best options available. If your o.ring doesn't get hit, it will be another of your artifacts/enchantments. Deed is alot more dangerous against it than grip is.Quote:
Originally Posted by urdjur
And planewalkers. Besides, having some extra creature spot removal is never a bad thing in the current meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by urdjur
Anyways, don't take those comments/criticisms too harshly. I have to reiterate that I love your build, and will be testing it in the near future.
Yup, I quite agree. That about sums it up - in fact, I think it applies to all toolbox strategies. To make a parallel:Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you are playing cards that have a variable impact depending on the MU (the toolbox cards obviously, but also tutor and wayfarer themselves), rather than having (or trying to have) versatile cards that are solid (but not great) in most MUs. Now, I'm not saying this is necessarly a bad thing, but you have to realize it does make the deck somehow less consistent (if you draw the wrong cards for a certain MU, or if the good cards get detroyed/discarded/whatever).
"Normal" Death and Taxes is like a swiss army knife. It's compact, multi purpose and handles most things excellently. Sometimes, using that small saw to cut a big log is gonna be a hassle, but it will work.
My version is like a real heavy duty toolbox. It has a real wrench and a big saw. They will really get the job done easily, but sometimes they will be a lot more clunky than the slim line SAK.
I do too, but I find 1x Wasteland, 1x Dustbowl and 1x Crucible of Worlds to be an optimum split for this version.Quote:
That was only an ideal situation example, but even at 3/4/5 lands on their side and even without vial on yours, I find wayfarer + waste a great tool against landstill (and other non-basic control decks, in fact).
Yup, I think it could definetely be run in the SotPC slot in the standard list, as long as you run 4x Vial, 4x Flickerwisp and 3x Cataclysm + enough creatures and artifacts to enable you to sacrifice Epochrasite readily while keeping board advantage. You'd be trading Ichorid MU against Landstill MU, which sounds like a good trade for my meta at least.Quote:
You forgot to mention it's also great to recover from sweepers, something that D&T has always had a problem with. It is also one of the only 2-drop you can actually play on turn 2, which smoothes out the curve.
I still can't decide if 2 Stonecloakers should be run anyway. It's a good card with wisp/grunt/mangara, helps against Loam/Landstill and gives me even more flyers for Halo synergy. I don't think 2 of them would be that random - in fact, I think running 3 will sometimes make you cry. It would simply mean a 4/2 wisp/cloaker split instead of the usual 3/3. It also puts that Vial@3 to better use. And more 3cc threats is good against chalice/counterbalance.Quote:
You forgot to mention loam decks, which is the 1st reason to play stonecloaker imo (grunt is also decent in this MU). Also, with all the goyfs around, having an extra grunt is rarely a bad thing.
[...]
Not necessarly. It also means you can play/vial stonecloaker in resp to an anti-creature (on canonist or another target) and your opponent won't be able to respond to it.
I do agree with you that it's either wisp OR cloaker (in your build, not the classic D&T one). Your have enough 3cc spells, and running 1-2 random cloakers seems a bit janky.
[...]
It does, but it's also alot more defensive than stp. I guess that you can make an argument for it since you run 8 flyers, but I'm still not sure about MDing it.
But what to cut? The only thing I could think of last night was:
*Swap Maze of Ith for Kor Haven (I still haven't decided which is better).
*Another mana producing land lets us cut a land.
*Also cut Mistveil Plains - since it CIPT, I haven't counted it as a mana producer so I'm actually running 1 land too many. I basically count it as a Soldevi Digger, but I'm not sure it's really needed.
This would give 2 free slots for 2x Stonecloaker, and still leave me with 20 sources (plus vial, wayfarer), which is optimal for a curve that tops at 3cc. What do you think? It makes me more dependent on Crucible for land recursion, but in practice I probably was already since Mistveil is so clunky.
Sorry, what I meant was 16+ creatures decks AND threshold (though not as much as gobbos obviously) despite that they don't run that many creatures, since their draw spells give them more effective creatures and limited land + need for cantripping makes GP hurt more than one would think against such a threat light deck. Hope that clears it up.Quote:
Do you see alot of thresh builds with 16+ creatures? oO
Yet another reason not to run more than the single MD copy then.Quote:
Deed is alot more dangerous against it than grip is.
No worries, I wouldn't post on these forums if I didn't want people to comment and give input :) It all contributes to making a strong deck.Quote:
Anyways, don't take those comments/criticisms too harshly. I have to reiterate that I love your build, and will be testing it in the near future.
@ those of you radically altering D&T to beat Landstill and Storm combo.
Why?
Let's face it, We're never going to have a better than 30/70 Storm matchup, especially with Ad Nauseum making Storm faster than ever. I've never played D&T vs Landstill, but you're all convinced it's a terrible matchup that needs improvement.
If my meta consisted of Landstill and Storm combo, I'd run Dragon Stompy. Why try to fit a square peg into a round hole?
D&T is a fine deck with a highly favorable Goblin matchup, favorable Aggro Loam and Dreadstill matchups, and a roughly even match with Thresh, Ichorid, and Painter. Why run it at all in a hostile meta?
Sorry for this newbbie question: in a decklist more or less like the one urdjur has posted, how would you use the SB Cataclysms? I mean, against who and what would you take off, superficially?
PD: I have edited a huge error caused by my poor english, sorry
Well, you would still be running 4xSotPC in the SB obviously (otherwise you can say goodbye to the ichorid MU), but I would think epochrasite is better against a random opponent (ie g1) than SotPC. The only problem then is the reduced flexibility caused by the cuts in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by urdjur
You do make a point, but what I attempt to do with my list (I'll speak in my name here, but I would guess that the situation is similar for urdjur) is not tweaking D&T against landstill. The improved landstill MU is one of the consequences of this altered list, and certainly something I've had in mind while constructing it, but by no means the only one. Rather, it's partly based on different concepts (making it almost a different deck, but with enough similarities to be classified under "D&T"), which is not exactly what I would call "tweaking". You end up with different MU results (both positively and negatively) all across the field and a deck that sometimes plays out very differently from a normal D&T.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
Also,
In a meta composed only of those decks I would certainly play the classic build, butQuote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
a) it's not always possible to know what the meta will be like (and there's always the possibility to encounter the random black sheep)
b) landstill (as well as intuition-control) is regularly present in a developed meta where the decks you listed would appear
As a rule of thumb, I would say that the further your opponent deck is from an aggro-control template, the better cataclysm gets. Now, this is obviously a simplification, so apply it smartly. But in general, I would side in cataclysm mostly against aggro (goblins mostly) and control (MUC, landstill, intuition-control, enchantress).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikurei,TheGodsSlayer
I second the answers from Maëlig to Kuma. It's also pretty difficult to define Death and Taxes. Finn has previously said that D&T is basically MW aggro-control with Mangara. Maëlig commented on my "aggro-parfait" list previously in the N&D forum, and I thought that was sufficiently different to merit its own thread.
Now I've basically taken what I learned there and stuck it in the Karakas/Mangara shell that is D&T. If you want to call it something else than D&T to separate the builds, I'm calling it Value Added Taxes (a bit cheeky, but wtf).
SB Cataclysms work normally against decks that typically overextends one permanent type on the board (land.dec, goblins, enchantress, affinity, landstill - to name a few). Sometimes you also need GY hate to make it count. The only added benefit is that Boseiju works as a "silver bullet land" with Cataclysm against landstill, since Cataclysm is probably the least resolved spell ever against landstill.Quote:
Sorry for this newbbie question: in a decklist more or less like the one urdjur has posted, how would you use the SB Cataclysms? I mean, against who and what would you take off, superficially?
But landstill is pretty unique in its ability to run counters AND overextend a permanent, and that's the only time we need clysm + boseiju. Against other decks running counters, boseiju works well with Abolish and Mine Excavation however.
The most important thing with the sideboarded sorceries/instants is change of strategy. Landstill will see wasteland/dustbowl game 1 and react as they sideboard. Goblins will see Ghostly Prison and react. Faerie Stompy will see Aura of Silence and react. They will guess wrong, because game 2 doesn't bring more of the same, it brings more of something new that accomplishes similar things - which is something else entirely. That's my plan at least - of course, when testing in small groups, the trick looses its novelty value quickly. But I think it's solid thinking for a tournament.
You are spot-on here, Mealig. And I am glad you brought that up because I had not thought to put it in those terms. You may remember that a lot of people have been removing Cataclysm from their decks. I had been doing this myself for awhile, but I have since returned them. The main reason revolves around what decks it hoses and what decks D+T is strong against. They are opposites. So Cataclysm gives you a powerful out against an opponent that would otherwise pound you.Quote:
As a rule of thumb, I would say that the further your opponent deck is from an aggro-control template, the better cataclysm gets. Now, this is obviously a simplification, so apply it smartly. But in general, I would side in cataclysm mostly against aggro (goblins mostly) and control (MUC, landstill, intuition-control, enchantress).
Elves
Enchantress
Stax
BGw control
Intuition control
Goblins
MUC
Mono-white control - I have been seeing on MWS
Landstill
etc...
I have to take objection with the "White aggro-control with Mangara" definition of D&T. Adding Mangara & Karakas to a deck doesn't make it "Death & Taxes" any more than adding Mogg Fanatic to a deck makes it a "Goblin deck".
The primary difference between WW & D&T is WW focuses on speed while D&T focuses on utility. D&T does tricks with Stonecloaker, Flickerwisp, Mangara, and Karakas, while WW goes straight for the throat with Geddon/Cataclysm to seal the deal. That said, D&T is still very much an aggro deck that can bring the pain turn after turn.
I define aggro as a deck that tries to do as much damage to the opponent as quickly as possible, usually through playing efficient creature(s) almost every turn, while clearing out blockers. Examples of pure aggro decks are Vial Goblins, Goyf Sligh, Elf Aggro, BDW, Zoo, and Burn.
Under this definition of aggro, I can't call Maelig and urdjar's lists "aggro." There just isn't a concerted effort to deal as much damage as quickly as possible. I think D&T is at its best when it's swinging with creatures first and pulling tricks second. The idea of a Weatered Wayfarer/Enlightened Tutor toolbox is contrary to an aggro plan. Finding silver bullets is nice, but when they come with tempo and/or card disadvantage, they usually aren't worth it. When you only have one solution to a deck, they only need one answer to beat you.
I'm fine with Trinket Mage toolboxes, as they take up few cards, don't have card disadvantage, and because Trinket Mage can be useful as soon as you play it. I'm fine with ITF's Intuition toolbox because the cards are useful in almost every match. Wishboards are fine because they don't take up maindeck space and don't cause card disadvantage. But I can't get behind a deck that uses two seperate toolboxes, one of which has card disadvantage, while the other one requires you to be behind in tempo. urdjar's list runs 18 cards that are extremely situational, or that find extremely situational cards.
Right now, these decks are a mile wide and an inch deep. Having silver bullets is no replacement for a solid gameplan, because one of these is stopped by a single removal card/counterspell, while the other can withstand several such cards.
You may have a solid Landstill/Combo matchup, but I think you've severely weakened yourselves against the rest of the field. The idea looks good on paper, but I don't think it will translate into results.
Look, I know D&T is all about tweaking it to your metagame, but you'd be better off in some metagames with a different deck. If you want to have strong matchups against Landstill, Storm, and Ichorid, why not run Dragon Stompy?
Hi!
What would you guys recommend boarding against Merfolk-decks? Seems to be the winning deck in my meta right now.
Cataclysm seems like a good choice, but you shouldn't have too much trouble with Merfolk to begin with. Their creatures are generally worse in combat than yours, they can't Islandwalk you easily, and their mana denial plan is mostly inneffective. We also run enough spot removal to make their lives miserable.
Yeah. Trying to have silver bullets and aggro at the same time is a time-honored impossibility. Just ask ATS or Welder Survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
The unfortunate truth here is that you are going to have a category of opponents that will beat you. If you go with the creatures I have chosen, traditional Landstill and fast combo will be an issue while most other opponents will be in your favor. If you swap some of them out for Glowrider and Hokori, you will have improved your game against probably Landstill and Enchantress and some other stuff at the expense of some of the decks you can currently roll. You can go with Children of Korlis and True Believer in the main to be hard on combo. But then all the other matchups get weaker. It's really a matter of what you are planning to see. Also, remember that Legacy decks are fantastic at finding answers. So the one factor that seems to remain important, is the ability to apply life total pressure while these disruptors are on the table. Otherwise you are playing a Jack Elgin deck.
Oh, and try spot removal for those merfolk. Sunlance or Condemn should be nice.
After some tinkering, here is my current list:
// Lands
4 [LG] Karakas
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
13 [UNH] Plains
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
// Creatures
2 [PLC] Stonecloaker
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 [SC] Silver Knight
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [SHM] Runed Halo
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Stonecloaker
SB: 1 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 1 [SC] Silver Knight
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
The biggest problem I have with it is the one-of cards in the sideboard. They came as a result of me working Runed Halo into the main deck on account of glowing reports from another D&T player in my meta. There's lots of flexibility here, and few truly dead cards while maintaining a decent aggro plan.
Sideboard strategies ATM, are:
Aggro Loam: -3 Isamaru, -3 SotPC, +2 Jotun Grunt, +1 Silver Knight, +2 Tivadar of Thorn, +1 Oblivion Ring
Goblins: -3 Runed Halo, -1 Flickerwisp, +3 Tivadar, +1 Silver Knight
Dreadstill: -3 Silver Knight, -3 Isamaru/SotPC, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Runed Halo, +4 Orim's Chant
Ugr Swan Thresh: -3 Isamaru, -2 Stonecloaker, -1 Flagstones, +3 Jotun Grunt, +1 Runed Halo, +1 Silver Knight, +1 Oblivion Ring
Storm: -4 StP, -1 Stonecloaker, +4 Orim's Chant, +1 Runed Halo
Armageddon Stax: -2 Runed Halo, +1 SotPC, +1 Oblivion Ring
Painter (non Imperial): -2 Silver Knight, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Runed Halo
Ichorid: -3 Oblivion Ring, -3 Mangara of Corondor, -3 Runed Halo, +3 Jotun Grunt, +1 SotPC, +1 Silver Knight, +4 Orim's Chant
Suggestions?
Hi!
What would you say is the best SB-card against burn?
Kitchen Finks
Auriok Champion
Circle of Protection: Red
Warmth
Silver Knight
Other?
Helpfull cards vs Devastating Dreams would also be nice.
Tip: Ronom Unicorn/Kami of Ancient Law is gold vs Counter Balance, Deed, Survival etc.
I was thinking of playing one of those, but the problem is, counterbalance will just counter it since its CC = 2. and deed will blow up without giving you priority. so i dont think it will work that well to be honest.Quote:
Tip: Ronom Unicorn/Kami of Ancient Law is gold vs Counter Balance, Deed, Survival etc.
I played this deck on a big dutch tournament (142 players) and ended 44th. (went 4-3-1) i also lost 2 matches becouse of play errors, which were really stupid :p
i played the following list:
// Lands
12 [9E] Plains
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [LG] Karakas
// Creatures
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
3 [CHP] Serra Avenger
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [LE] Glowrider
3 Epochrasite
2 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [EX] Cataclysm
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Gaea's Blessing
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [WL] Orim's Chant
SB: 4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
Cataclysm goes side, rings go in, i sided clysm out many times for ring.
further more, epochrasite is going out. it is not good in this deck.
Wheel of Sun and Moon is going to stay in for a while, it helped me alot vs Aggro Loam and Team America (tarmogoyf which only feeds on my.. almost empty grave and good luck hardcasting that tombstalker..)
How about chalise as a sideboard card?
it helps vs combo and burn
And why do people play runed halo? is this card that good in this deck? and which card do you often name?
ohyeah, i found out that humility is a very very strong card against this deck..
Well, the thing about unicorn is that you don´t have to hold it in your hand the whole game. People usually dont play their Counterbalance turn 2 but wait until the game is more stable. I also think that playing 1 is not enough, Death and Taxes is not a deck full of silver bullets but rely on stability.
Yes, Runed Halo is that good; it's the ultimate silver bullet. I frequently name Grindstone, Tarmogoyf, Tendrils of Agony, Countryside Crusher, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Terravore, and Goblin Charbelcher. Or you can just name their biggest creature in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pienterekaak
It's amazing against any deck with a limited number of kill conditions. Vs stuff like Goblins, you side it out.
On a side note, between Aether Vial, Oblivion Ring, Mangara, and to a lesser degree Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker, Counterbalance can often be dealt with. But active Countertop is almost always gg.
mmm maybe its worth to test it if it has enough targets main deck.
i might play it instead of glowrider, which serves almost the same function.
and countertop can be played around with D&T, its not always easy, but countertop combo isnt always game against it.
Well, let me put it this way: I've won one or two games against active countertop (Sensei's + Counterbalance + mana). While we have answers like Oblivion Ring, Aether Vial and Mangara, they also have extra counterspells, and often burn for Mangara and Krosan Grip for Ring and Vial.
I would argue the opposite. Runed halo is not reliable enough to be run MD, and not game-breaking enough to be included in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
It's versatile obviously, but also very reactive, which goes against the strategy of the deck. You want to play disruptive creatures, not defensive enchantments.
Also, if you include this to stop combo: don't, it won't work. Canonist, orim's chant and even glowrider are much better fitted for that role. Runed halo is even worse against combo than true believer, that's how bad it is.
As for
The ones you listed are all good options imo, don't forget true believer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceridan
I would go with one of the most versatiles, ie that is not only usefull in the burn MU. So probably not cop: red (again, too defensive, gobs will just overrun you) or warmth.
How is Runed Halo any more unreliable than Oblivion Ring, or any other permanent in the deck? As for game breaking, ask Threshold how it like a Halo naming Tarmogoyf. Or Dreadstill how it likes a Halo naming Dreadnought. In fact, most of the top decks in the format run 1-3 win conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maëlig
All answer cards are, by definition, reactive. Do StP, Oblivion Ring, and the Maze of Ith you insist on running go against the strategy of the deck? I agree that Runed Halo would be better if it came with a 2/2 body and didn't leave creatures around to block, but one of the best things about D&T's aggro plan is that we run fliers and equipment, so mucking up the ground isn't a huge deal.
Orim's Chant and Ethersworn Cannonist are the two best cards we have against combo. But they have no applications outside of the combo match, while Runed Halo at worst stops a creature from attacking or puts four dead draws in an opponent's deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maëlig
I don't see how a two mana card that shuts off combo's primary win conditions is bad against combo. The fact that it has nearly unlimited other uses makes it far better in D&T than Cannonist, Chant, Glowrider, and True Believer.
Seriously, punt the storm combo matchup already. There's no good reason to feebly shake your fists at storm with D&T when you could run something with a positive storm matchup.
As you pointed out, Halo leaves creatures behind to stop ours from getting through. That is a huge difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
Quote:
Originally Posted by saspook
I run nine three power fliers in my list. D&T has the best air game in Legacy outside of Faerie Stompy, so leaving their creatures on the ground isn't terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
Oblivion Ring and Runed Halo compliment each other nicely.
O-Ring
- Stops artifacts, enchantments, and creatures.
Runed Halo
- Stops instants, sorceries, and lands (and most creatures, some artifacts, and some enchantments).
Give Runed Halo a shot, I doubt you'll be disappointed. Those of you who like to pretend D&T is a control deck have no excuse as it fits your strategy even better than mine.
to be honest, i dont think runed halo is very effective against combo, you name tendrills, they go with empty the warrents, or bounce it back with solidarity. so combo has mainboard answers against it. so then its mostly creature removal, which oblivion ring is better at. but i might give it a try just to see how it works.