[Deck] Dragon Stompy

Trinisphere or Blood Moon for maindeck is optional. .
For my metagame that contain half of mono-color deck, Trinisphere is still the main choice. .Same as SoLS over SoFI cause my meta has a lot of StP and Shriekmaw. .it's all about your possibly opponent to face. .

I'm looking for 22 creatures here :
4 Gathan Riders
4 Rakdos Pit-dragon
4 Magus of The Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

The last 6 will be :
* Arc-Slogger (2/3/4)
* Sulfur Elemental (0/2/3/4)
* Akroma, Angel of Fury (0/1/2)
* Taurean Mauler (0/2/3/4)
* others?? Greater Gargadon maybe?

What do you all think?

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Originally Posted by moOnsteak

The last 6 will be :
* Arc-Slogger (2/3/4)
* Sulfur Elemental (0/2/3/4)
* Akroma, Angel of Fury (0/1/2)
* Taurean Mauler (0/2/3/4)
* others?? Greater Gargadon maybe?

What do you all think?

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3 arcslogger, 2 sulfur and 1 akroma.
or 3 arcslogger, 2 akroma and 1 sulfur.
EDIT: 3 arcslogger are needed, they are 5cc beaters, board control and finishers.
2 sulfur + 1 akroma or vice versa: even if you love akroma, sometimes you have just 3 mana and a 3/3 mongoose to stop.
akroma is good, but I think that a low cost beater with flash is needed.
In the future, please add more content in posts in the DtB Forum. ~ Nightmare

I need an explanation for the following;
I hear you guys talking about not playing to many expensive creatures because it doesn't fit in the mana curve and it's not much synergie* with hellbent. But now I see lists with Akroma, that's even more expensive then arc-slogger and sometimes I hate drawing that card. I agree this card is pretty good, but is it that good in this deck and isn't this card screwing with your speed?

Let's be honest here. Akroma Angel of Fury is a 3 mana 2/2 that's usually unblockable by anything without 5 or more toughness because your opponent thinks it's a Gathan Raiders.

Additionally, unmophing it can easily be handled at 4 mana plus a Seething Song. The issue isn't whether or not the card is good in the deck as 1 one of, the question is whether or not the current metagame (being filled with Red Thresh) allows you to play morph creatures beyond Gathan Raiders without resolving Chalice@1 first.

I think 2 Akroma is pushing it as it is, which is why I only ran 1 (I want to try 2 against the new thresh lists, but if its not relevant I'll go back to something else). The deck already has plenty of grey ogres, and most of the time, she will not be flipped up. I don't actually think of her as an aggro creature, though she certainly can go aggro, but rather an answer to answers and an actual plan for the long game. Don't ever play 3. Seriously.

I'm also glad people are finally going to 23-24 threats (counting SSG and Magus), since this deck's tougher matchups are ones in which they answer all of your threats, but I strongly disagree with cutting the equipment down to 2 Jitte. Against your tougher matchups, you will often have to try to ride one or two threats against theirs, and a lone SSG/morph/Gathan Raiders/Magus is usually not enough against an opponent playing real threats. Equipment is what makes them threats, and with so many grey ogres, a couple SoFaI is almost necessary (I have never seen a goyf shit itself at a SSG or magus, but a monkey with a Sword can out tempo a 5/6 goyf and provide more gas).

For maindeck disruption, it really depends on what you expect to run into, and what you fear. I feel like cutting Trinisphere completely is a bad choice unless your metagame is nothing but Landstill and 43 Lands. I expected more Landstill and Survival than I ran into, so cutting sphere for a moon seemed like the right choice (it worked out that I didn't run into either, but I felt more prepared against them), especially with Eva Green caring less about sphere and making up at least 3 decks in the metagame.

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Originally Posted by moOnsteak

Trinisphere or Blood Moon for maindeck is optional. .
For my metagame that contain half of mono-color deck, Trinisphere is still the main choice. .Same as SoLS over SoFI cause my meta has a lot of StP and Shriekmaw. .it's all about your possibly opponent to face. .

I'm looking for 22 creatures here :

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For a metagame that contains half mono-color decks, there's probably no way in hell you should be running this deck.

As for your 22 creatures, this is what they should be.

4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Arc-Slogger
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury/Sulfur Elemental/Taurean Mauler

I'd pick Akroma or Sulfur. The more I play Mauler, the more I dislike his synergy with Chalice and Moon. Sulfur Elemental has the luxury of being a makeshift removal spell from time to time, and Akroma wins if you flip her.

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Originally Posted by Ragnarok

I need an explanation for the following;
I hear you guys talking about not playing to many expensive creatures because it doesn't fit in the mana curve and it's not much synergie* with hellbent. But now I see lists with Akroma, that's even more expensive then arc-slogger and sometimes I hate drawing that card. I agree this card is pretty good, but is it that good in this deck and isn't this card screwing with your speed?

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You aren't thinking in terms of Hellbent practicality. For Hellbent, you need only get it out of your hand. Akroma's is as easy to get out of your hand as Gathan Raiders, easier than Magus/Dragon/Slogger, and less easy than only Simian Spirit Guide. Your hand will never be clogged up by Akroma in a situation where it wouldn't also be clogged up by any other creature suggested in this entire thread.

Flipping her may be more expensive than Arc-Slogger, sure, but let's be real about this. Dragon Stompy is a deck capable of producing obscene amounts of mana. The reason we don't run many creatures we can't get out of our hand for :2::r: or :3: is that it can't generate said mana consistently. However, the punishment for not having the mana to flip an Akroma is significantly less than the reward you get the times you do have it.

Whatever happened to Razormane Masticore? He's a 5/5 first striker for 5; well within reasonable casting cost for this deck. He clears the path of any blockers, and if he doesn't flat out kill them, the chances of them blocking & having their creature survive is very slim. He's colorless damage, so red hate is dead against him. He helps you achieve hellbent.

Not even as a 2 of perhaps?

The problem with him is he requires you to NOT have Hellbent during declared attackers since he has an upkeep cost and if you drop your hand you'll lose him. and Not have Hellbent for your other creatures just isn't worth it.

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Originally Posted by JanValentine00

The problem with him is he requires you to NOT have Hellbent during declared attackers since he has an upkeep cost and if you drop your hand you'll lose him. and Not have Hellbent for your other creatures just isn't worth it.

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Lol, yes. I'm retarded. I can see the dis-synergy now. Boo.... The Masticore family gets no love anymore, anywhere.

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Originally Posted by JanValentine00

The problem with him is he requires you to NOT have Hellbent during declared attackers since he has an upkeep cost and if you drop your hand you'll lose him. and Not have Hellbent for your other creatures just isn't worth it.

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Jan's dead on. Gathan Raiders killed Razormane Masticore, as awesome as Raziepoo once was.

Additionally, the more I play this deck the more I realize that the less artifacts you have (and consequently the more red cards you have), the more powerful the deck is. Obviously, this only applies to a degree, as cutting Chalice or Mox is out of the question, and I think Jitte's still too strong to cut entirely, but it really helps if all of your threats are red and thereby able to imprint on a Chrome Mox if you absolutely need them to.

im testing mauler and he`s superb. if your opponent doesn`t have an answer to him, he sometimes works like a standstill, opponent wont play a spell till he draws a removal, or if he plays spells in 3 turns he is big enough to finish the game. if he has removal than hes just +3 life to swords and he lets other creatures survive. overall he`s just great

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Jan's dead on. Gathan Raiders killed Razormane Masticore, as awesome as Raziepoo once was.

Additionally, the more I play this deck the more I realize that the less artifacts you have (and consequently the more red cards you have), the more powerful the deck is. Obviously, this only applies to a degree, as cutting Chalice or Mox is out of the question, and I think Jitte's still too strong to cut entirely, but it really helps if all of your threats are red and thereby able to imprint on a Chrome Mox if you absolutely need them to.

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I think 3 jitte and a sword of fire and ice is good enough.
This deck try to drop a chalice or a moon in the first turn, then drop a huge treat and win in a couple turns.

too many jitte can slow your hand, force you to forget about hellbent OR about an equipped Rakdos Pit Dragon, they just help you if an opponent plays one before you do.
Also ONE sword of fire and ice is good, since we don't want to draw that much :tongue: and we can't imprint any artifact to chrome mox.

My problem with Mauler is that he is awful as a topdeck, especially against the decks that can take this deck to school. Most Thresh and Landstill decks will let your early threats resolve, and then use removal on them, saving counters for later threats and disruption (or at least, the better players will do this). Sulfur Elemental gets around this.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

For a metagame that contains half mono-color decks, there's probably no way in hell you should be running this deck.

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I still do. .because chalice @ 1 or 2 is too good to be true even against mono. .
Also Trinisphere delay everything until I get my threat so I still love this deck. .

Note for Akroma, sometimes when I draw Seething Song with no other spell in my hand, it's a dead card unless you want to get mana burn to keep hellbent. .with she's at morph condition, draw a Song just like a dream comes true :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Zork

My problem with Mauler is that he is awful as a topdeck, especially against the decks that can take this deck to school. Most Thresh and Landstill decks will let your early threats resolve, and then use removal on them, saving counters for later threats and disruption (or at least, the better players will do this). Sulfur Elemental gets around this.

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also consider that you can cast it when you don't have a seething song and need some speed..
I suggest testing 3 Arcslogger, 2 Sulfur Elemental and 1 Akroma,
and then write results: I guess we will not miss Trinisphere maindeck with this build :cool:

So, after any Akroma, Mauler, and Trinisphere discussion, I'd like to apply what list I'd play for next tourney, here it is :

4 Gathan Riders
4 Rakdos Pit-Dragon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Arc-Slogger
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury

1 Chandra Nalaar

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere --slot--
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow / 3rd Jitte
4 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox

18 standard land (4/4/10). .

About Chandra : don't get me wrong, I need her as an answer for Goyf, Sea Drake, shadow creatures, flying creatures which dominating in my meta. .She has proved herself as good as she looks like. .you can simply cut her but I really need her. .

Assume Trinisphere should be removed and I don't need more Moon effect, what do you all recommend to be added to fill --slot-- for this list? More creatures? or more Stax effect? Such as?

I'm sorry, but with thresh being the absolute best deck in the format, I cannot conceive of cutting trinisphere from the maindeck, as it is just such a beating against them. I guess if no one runs thresh or if the thresh players in your metagame run builds that completely bend over to moon effects (and hell, the best thresh list out there runs blood moon maindeck), then you can probably cut trinisphere. Otherwise, I want more than just 4 Chalice and moons against them.

Also, I have come to the conclusion that the MWS shuffler loves this deck. I seem to get 80% great hands and better topdecks on MWS than I ever do in real life testing, even if I pile shuffle. This is why I used to think that Tahngarth was OK - MWS always let me drop him. Don't trust results from MWS.

EDIT - If you really think that cutting Trinisphere is OK, I would run 1-2 Blood Moon main and/or 1-2 Sulfur Elemental.

what thresh list runs moons main ? countertop thrash ftw, ofcourse wich build is best is dependant on the player and meta

I think regardless of what decks are packing basics / Blood Moons themselves, the point needs to be made about Blood Moon that it's still good against these decks. A first turn Blood Moon can still win entire games against decks packing significant number of basics if they are holding 0-1 basics and a hand full of fetchlands. And even if you don't shut off their spell capacity, you can at least slow them down by making their fetchland/dual topdecks work for nothing more than colorless mana. Some decks are very strong against Blood Moon, but just because you run a few basics here and there doesn't mean that Blood Moon can't completely hose you.

Actually in regards to a first turn Moon/other plays I have a question:

If you're playing against a deck that you know packs Daze, is it (when on the draw) better to play around this or just through out threats regardless? I usually slow play against Thresh to stop Daze, I was just wondering what others did.

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Originally Posted by moOnsteak

So, after any Akroma, Mauler, and Trinisphere discussion, I'd like to apply what list I'd play for next tourney, here it is :

4 Gathan Riders
4 Rakdos Pit-Dragon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Arc-Slogger
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury

1 Chandra Nalaar

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere --slot--
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow / 3rd Jitte
4 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox

18 standard land (4/4/10). .

About Chandra : don't get me wrong, I need her as an answer for Goyf, Sea Drake, shadow creatures, flying creatures which dominating in my meta. .She has proved herself as good as she looks like. .you can simply cut her but I really need her. .

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I really like chandra, but I don't think is THAT good in this deck because it is really slow. If your problem is Sea Drake, use Pyrokinesis..

'Cept for Chandra, our list look similar:
I have 3 jitte and no SoL&S (maybe I'll test it) because I really want a red card in my hand to pitch, and I don't want to pitch a treat so I use 3 Blood Moon maindeck + 1 Sideboard.

My Chandra slot maybe should be used for a treat, but I think a 4th Arcslogger would be too much.... I think I'll try a second Akroma:
"ok, :3: Morph.. 33% Girl and 66% Boy Chance..."

also consider your sideboard, and please post it!

Mine is:

4 Tromod
3 Pithing needle
1 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
4 PyroCLASM (you can try Pyrokinesis)

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Originally Posted by n00bas4urus_r3x

If you're playing against a deck that you know packs Daze, is it (when on the draw) better to play around this or just through out threats regardless? I usually slow play against Thresh to stop Daze, I was just wondering what others did.

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I've always been pro playing into Daze with Stompy decks for the most part. You can't generalize completely since if you're holding one last bomb you may want to play around Daze.

Basically my philosophy is "We're a deck that is completely driven by dropping expensive cards early", right? So waiting an extra turn to play all our cards is hurting our fundemental strategy. If you know they have a Daze, ok wait. But really there is usually only a 50% chance they have one if they are packing four, so I'd really rather not give them the turn in which to dig for a Force/Grip/Bolt, drop Counterbalance/Top/Meddling Mage, or just do something hurtful to us. I say if you're on the play and you can go Tomb -> Chalice@1, fire away. A lot of people disagree, but if I'm going down with an aggressive deck, I'd rather go down swinging than because I was too meek.

Ok here's more about Chandra. .she control the field not just at one time. .when Pyrokinesis do. .for an example, if my opponent cast Ornithopter waiting for Plating to be equipped, sure I will pyro it same with the others (frogmite and disciple of vault for example). .but when my opponent soon drop 2nd orni, I'll have no answer. .and that's why I need Chandra. .
Same case when you face an opponent who runs so many shadow creatures with a lot of equipment. .I know it's rare but it happen in my meta so 1 Chandra is my plan against it. .

owh yeah my sideboard will be :
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyroclasm
3 Blood Moon
3 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere

I have same problem too against 'Daze'. .that's why I still contain Trinisphere main. .so my oppent have to choose, daze it or you'll never able to cas daze again. .

I guess if you really need to kill ornithopters you can play Chandra, but I know that whenever I have needed to answer a threat it is usually because it's bigger than my creatures, and in that case Chandra is usually somewhat worse than a fireball or a wall of stone.

Also, about your board: play 4 Pithing Needle.

ssg can be a nice trick against daze :smile:

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Originally Posted by moOnsteak

Ok here's more about Chandra. .she control the field not just at one time. .when Pyrokinesis do. .for an example, if my opponent cast Ornithopter waiting for Plating to be equipped, sure I will pyro it same with the others (frogmite and disciple of vault for example). .but when my opponent soon drop 2nd orni, I'll have no answer. .and that's why I need Chandra. .
Same case when you face an opponent who runs so many shadow creatures with a lot of equipment. .I know it's rare but it happen in my meta so 1 Chandra is my plan against it. .

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Ok, but I think that Chandra is useful only if you drop it 1swt/2nd turn.
This implies a seething song.
And I'd rather drop a rakdos pit dragon or an arcslogger, because Chandra is a slow yet persistent control card, Dragon or Slogger are a win condition.
I personally love Pyroclasm and I think I'll use it over Pyrokinesis, because a lot of times is a card advantage removal, cheap and with the ability to kill a naked troll, or a early mongoose.. and Pyroclasm is never a dead card in your hand , since is very cheap.

About Daze: I don't care. Really. If you daze me a chalice, I'll drop a moon. You only have 4 Dazes and you loose tempo every time.
Yes, you can try to daze me, but if you are counting on you 4_pack Dazes, I have my 4_pack 'Rillaz... So basically is all bluff and luck, don't waste time and play aggro :tongue: (OBV IMHO)

Playing into daze seems like a bad idea if you have only 1 disruption piece in your hand and no SSG. If you have more than one and feel like drawing some tempo to drop a bomb (like Chalice at 2), then go for it. Of course then you lose to FoW or swords.

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Originally Posted by Zork

Playing into daze seems like a bad idea if you have only 1 disruption piece in your hand and no SSG. If you have more than one and feel like drawing some tempo to drop a bomb (like Chalice at 2), then go for it. Of course then you lose to FoW or swords.

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Right. I mean if i have a Chalice in hand, a City/tomb, and a mountain, with no SSG, it seems to me like I should drop Mountain, pass, then Chalice @1 next turn without the threat of Daze. Then either forces them for have Force, or Chalice pretty much shuts them down.

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Originally Posted by n00bas4urus_r3x

Right. I mean if i have a Chalice in hand, a City/tomb, and a mountain, with no SSG, it seems to me like I should drop Mountain, pass, then Chalice @1 next turn without the threat of Daze. Then either forces them for have Force, or Chalice pretty much shuts them down.

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Right, but weigh that against the fact that that extra turn is going to allow them to dig for Force (possibly 8 deep with two Ponders) or double Daze or Spell Snare or Krosan Grip. Now you're going to lose a game you would have won because you were afraid of a card they may or may not have had.

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Originally Posted by Phantom

Right, but weigh that against the fact that that extra turn is going to allow them to dig for Force (possibly 8 deep with two Ponders) or double Daze or Spell Snare or Krosan Grip. Now you're going to lose a game you would have won because you were afraid of a card they may or may not have had.

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If I am not the first player, and I see a "Flooded Strand, Go",
I try a "chalice for 1" anyway.
If he has a FoW, he has to pitch something, if he has a Daze, he'll be slow and jump a land drop, so the next turn I can try a Blood Moon.

Another Daze or Fow? No problem, when You'll see my Arcslogger your FoW will be floating in your deck somewhere. :tongue:

Also consider that my Simian Spirit Guide is great against Daze...

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Shall we keep Trinisphere in Sideboard at all?
Why don't we try somethin like evoke cards (Ingot Chewer) and Sword of Light and Shadow?
Just thinking about some new sinergy, since we can play around our own Chalice and still use cheap spells if we avoid Trinisphere..

I'm not all that opposed to experimenting with Trinispherelessness, although this will cause a significant dent in matchups like Epic Storm, as well as making it a lot harder to recover should you go 0-1 or 1-1 with decks like Threshold and have an opportunity to board them in on the play.

If Trinisphere is replaced, and that's a huge if, there are only two cards I'd consider in its place. Pyroblast and Serum Powder.

Pyroblast is solid. Decks like Threshold and Landstill beat us by countering our Blood Moons / Chalices, then drawing or cantripping into more counters while we topdeck crap. Pyroblast allows you to power Chalices and Moons through counters. It's decent against any blue deck on a slow draw, also, as it makes the occasions where you have to lead with "Mountain, Go" not so bad.

Serum Powder's probably even better, however. I've been running this for a couple months and it's nice. It ensures you'll get Blood Moons in matches where Moons auto-win. Ditto for Chalices. It'll help you dig up those Crypts against Ichorid, Needles against Survival and Belcher, Pyroclasm/kinesis against Goblins, or whatever the case may be. What's more, if you get Moons online, the mana part of Serum Powder isn't all that irrelevant, as it can help you cast Dragons and Sloggers.

The version of the deck I am planning on building once I have the skeleton of the deck (thanks to my friend and birthday) is as follows:

// Lands
11 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
1 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury
3 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [8E] Blood Moon
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [8E] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [B] Winter Orb
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere

As far as the main board goes, I think its a pretty common mainboard now that we have established that Akroma and Sulfur Elemental are two of the new powerhouses of the deck. However I have decided to run 2 Sword of Light and Shadow in the deck, only because in my meta, White and Black seem to be the primary colors that my opposition likes to play.

In the sideboard I am running Winter Orbs instead of Pithing Needles because I have had the displeasure of coming up against Landstill and Aggro Loam one to many times in my play history, and I like the idea of not only having moon to shut these decks down, but also Winter Orb to slow them down considerably! I am also keeping the Trinisphere in the sideboard for those match ups in which I find myself facing Burn decks and the like, I know for a fact there is a Goblin deck in my meta, and it would be severely hurt by Trinisphere. So I look forward to putting that in the sideboard as well. Tormod's Crypt and Pyroclasm are my primary weapons against dredge. Unfortunately I am a little skeptical at their effectiveness!

Cutting Trinisphere seems terrible. The card is absolutely broken. I am always hesitant to board it out even on the draw because it's such a strong tempo play, which is what a deck like this wants. Chalice and Blood Moon are occasionally stronger but neither is as consistently good as an early trinisphere. When they have to choose between answering the Gathan Raiders on the table and countering your Pit-Dragon you have already won the game. Then there are the matchups, namely combo, where it is the number one card you want to see. This fact alone justifies it's inclusion in your sideboard at least since combo forms a decent percentage of any metagame.

In short, there is a reason this card is restricted in vintage.

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Originally Posted by theross

In short, there is a reason this card is restricted in vintage.

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This is an astoundingly bad argument. Most of the accompanying cards that made Trinisphere retarded in Vintage are either not legal or just plan bad in Legacy Chalice Aggro. I could list them, but just go pull a Shop Aggro/$T4KS decklist from circa February 2005 and read it. How many of those cards are legal in Legacy and good in Dragon Stompy?

I would say that replacing 3sphere with 'tech' like Pyroblast is probably giving away matchup %age and is the complete opposite of the deck's strategy, but Serum Powder is at least an interesting idea.

Starting game 2/3 with gamebreaking "Card X" ~55-60% of the time versus 40% isn't bad at all. You already play the scariest "I randomly win this game because you didn't have FoW" hosers in the format main deck. I would think drawing more of them against problematic matchups is all you can ask from a sideboard card and I don't see the difference between 3sphere and Serum Powder in that respect, except that 3sphere is broken by itself and Serum Powder lets you mulligan out of the amazing Tomb, City, 4 red cards opening hand for free.

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Originally Posted by Cathal83

As far as the main board goes, I think its a pretty common mainboard now that we have established that Akroma and SULFUR ELEMENTAL are two of the new powerhouses of the deck.

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if you check the first page, sulfur has been in the list from the beginning.

as for 3sphere, it rocks in my meta, kills combo, stops burn severly, there wasn`t a game where i didn`t like to see 3sphere first turn on the table, not to say that against any matchup a first turn 3sphere on the play = 2 timewalks

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

And that reason is Mishra's Workshop :wink:

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This is not entirely true. 3sphere was restricted in Vintage because it could be reliably played first turn and the DCI concluded that a reliable, first-turn 3sphere was "unfun".

Sure, Workshop was a large part of why it could be reliably played so early, but don't forget about the SoLoMoxen, etc. And it really wasn't an issue of "broken" interactions. There was no real consensus that 3sphere was broken in Vintage.

Split, moved and merged all of the posts about Serum Powder to a new thread in the "Format Discussion Forum."

Let's get the discussion back on track and on-topic. Grazi. - Bardo

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Originally Posted by savemysoul

if you check the first page, sulfur has been in the list from the beginning.

as for 3sphere, it rocks in my meta, kills combo, stops burn severly, there wasn`t a game where i didn`t like to see 3sphere first turn on the table, not to say that against any matchup a first turn 3sphere on the play = 2 timewalks

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Back on track with Trinisphere discussions.

I'll concede that yes, there are very very few games where you aren't going to want a turn one Trinisphere. Turn one Trinisphere is very strong, no debate. There are matches where I will board in Trinisphere (It now lives in my sideboard) strictly when I'm about to be on the play, just because Trinisphere is so good in this situation.

The drawback, however, is that we don't always -get- a turn one Trinisphere. Sometimes we can't get it out until turn two. Sometimes we don't draw it until turn three. Sometimes our opponent gets to go first and does something annoying like Ritual/Specter, or Aether Vial. How many games do you want to see a Trinisphere when you can't get it down quickly?

Sometimes the answer to that will still be "Quite a few," depending on your metagame. However, by this time, the number will have dwindled severely.

The real question basically boils down to "Do we win more games from turn one Trinisphere being a mega time walk than we lose because we get it midgame when it isn't a threat or a relevant card, or than we lose because it doesn't imprint on a Chrome Mox when what we most need is to cast the red threats in our hand?"

The answer probably depends on your metagame, but I personally feel like Trinisphere influences the outcome of more games for this deck, both positively and negatively, than any other card it runs. I feel that due to the fact Dragon Stompy can't back up Trinisphere with any additional land destruction, that a lot of decks manage to escape from the turn one Trinisphere because I had to imprint a threat I needed on a Chrome Mox in order to get the turn one Trinisphere, and then topdeck crappily for a turn or two. I also feel I lose more due to topdecking it midgame than I win by dropping it first turn.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Back on track with Trinisphere discussions.

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Thank you, God.

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The real question basically boils down to "Do we win more games from turn one Trinisphere being a mega time walk than we lose because we get it midgame when it isn't a threat or a relevant card, or than we lose because it doesn't imprint on a Chrome Mox when what we most need is to cast the red threats in our hand?"

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We win more games from turn 1 Trinisphere being a meta Time Walk only if we cannot make a turn 1 Blood Moon or a turn 1 Chalice.
This is my opinion, but I'd rather make a I_start_turn_1 chalice @1 than a turn 1 trinisphere, as my sphere will be NEAR useless when turn 3 will come, while my chalice will FOREVER stop STP_on_Dragon or BEB_against_Moon

Anyway I fell the same as you do: 3Sphere does not imprint on a mox, and we have few threats.
So we must consider that Moon is a "deck killer" like 3sphere (if not better) and it is RED (relevant to our pitch) and Moon last forever, while sphere is avoided when opponent has 3 lands.

I feel that 3 sphere goes in SB, and only 3x, not 4x.
I think is must be used only against Burn, threshold , TES etc..
but a lot of times, a Blood Moon or Chalice @1/2 will be better, as it last longer.
Also I think it can kill an opponent turn 1, especially if I start, but unlike Blood Moon, I cannot use it turn 1 and then think: "ok,even if I draw a crappy topdeck, I have won, my opponent is screwed, he has 2 fetches in his hand."

If I use a Moon or Chalice turn 1 I can WAIT and topdeck crap turn 2, cause I locked him hard.. this does not happen if I use trinisphere MAINDECK (I mean, Vs TES a turn 1 trinisphere is win.)

Last part (sorry about redundacy):
Taco, I feel like you are my personal Guru in this discussion, so I consider your post like GOLD. Every time you write I agree and feel like we have the same plan in mind, you only have the chance to test this deck more than me:
Can you give your personal list? Maybe I just leech it, but I think that this way the discussion can advance to a new level.
Thanks.

I hate sharing lists that I haven't had for very long, because I lack the testing or certainty to back up the choices very well, but at current, here's my list.

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury (Edit: I'm dumb.)

4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trinisphere
2 Pyroblast

Several points on this list.

1. In my defense, yes, I know it's very possible that 2 Jitte is nowhere near enough equipment. It's an experiment. I will say that with 24 threats, the deck can simply overwhelm you with giant guys, and I don't lose nearly as often to not topdecking a threat midgame.

2. No, I'm not endorsing Pyrokinesis over Pyroclasm, or vice versa. This is also an experiment. I go back and forth a lot. I will say that Kinesis gains strength when most of your deck is red, and Pyroclasm gains strength in Stax-heavier versions. Kinesis -should- be better in the mirror, too, but I'm not entirely sure about that yet.

3. The Pyroblast is an experiment to try and better my Landstill matchup. I've also tried Defense Grid in this slot, which seems to be much better if my sole goal is to resolve a Blood Moon. This could easily be -2 Pyroblast, +1 Crypt, +1 Trinisphere (Or +0 Crypt, +2 Trinisphere).

4. My brain can't logically make it right for it to be a 2/2 split between Sulfur and Akroma, but so far it seems to be doing okay. Sulfur's good as sneaky removal (Flash and block), and Akroma's big and scary, but 4 of either one has left me disappointed.