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Sure you can. It's just an out more that don't need the usual Mystical or Death Wish for bounce/removal. Just put it into a Doomsday pile and generate a lot of mana with a top on table.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
However, if MM and Gaddock are not that present in your meta i guess you don't need to waste that slot and can play death wis in its place. Or maybe you want a Brain Freeze in SB.
I meant Mystical Tutor...sorry.
So you'd go:Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Turn 1: Land, Top.
Turn 2: Mystical on upkeep for Doomsday, draw into it. Play the second land, LED, Ritual, Doomsday (for Infernal Contract, Petal, Ritual, LED, Tendrils). Activate Top, pop LED, draw and play Infernal Contract. Play Petal, Ritual, LED, Top, activate Top, pop LED, play Tendrils for exactly 20.
Is that right? Or are there other ways of doing it?
Maybe it would be a good idea to post some more sample hands to illustrate how to play the deck to its full potential. Personally, I wouldn't have initially considered playing that hand out for a turn 2 win with Doomsday, so just thinking through that example was pretty helpful for me.
Our opponents disruption. We also have the capability to slow down their clock, which TES does also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
You can also go:Quote:
Originally Posted by b4r0n
Turn 1: Land, Top
Turn 2: Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, LED, Infernal Tutor (break LED, float BBB), Doomsday (Contract, LED, LED, Lotus Petal, Tendrils), Tap Top, Contract, Petal, Top, LED, LED, Tap Top, Tendrils.
That's basically the same, but it makes more storm.
Sure it makes more storm, it needs a card more! :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
There was no 2nd Dark Ritual involved in the example. You can either Mystical for Infernal or for 2nd Dark Ritual. If you had a 2nd D.Rit you could go with the IGG loop too.
EDIT: Maybe you did want to make another example? If so, my fault, I got it.
This is probably terrible, but what the hell: Boseiju plus Abeyance would let you go off completely unmolested (by things other than triggered or static abilities).
Boseiju makes around 11 cards in your deck uncounterable. After boarding in my deck the most it could be used for TOTAL is 17-18 cards. 5x of these have Split Second, 2x have Storm, and the others should be under the protection of Chant; this makes Boseiju a total waste of space. If you have 2x Abeyance boarded (I run 1x, and that's only sometimes), you can have an uncounterable Abeyance, but not very often. You only have one way to find the Boseiju, and that's if you are hellbent. Not the stuff sick setup/combo turns are made of. It's just not as useful as a Shusher. Not that I'm advocating that, either. If you want that, just go play TES. Just outthink your opponent. It's not like it's THAT hard...
BTW, here's the current list I'm running, but it seems to change by the testing session...:
//Deck: 60
2x Tendrils
1x 'Pate
1x Wipe Away
4x Chant
1x Bargain
3x Top
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
1x DW
1x DD
1x IGG
4x M. Tutor
4x IT
2x Petal
4x LED
4x D. Rit
4x C. Rit
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Trop
1x Tundra
1x USea
2x Scrub
4x Strand
4x Delta
//Sideboard: 15
4x Grip
3x Serenity
1x Massacre
1x Contract
1x R. River
1x E. Truth
1x 'Pate
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Brain Freeze
1x Abeyance
1x Top/Petal (this depends on what I expect to see; top against more control petal against more aggressive builds)
I'm liking the additional ponder, and it's easily sided out for a top in matchups it's not necessary in. Still haven't wanted the 16th land bad enough to drop down to one Petal. Maybe the 4th Ponder is helping with this, I'm not sure. Also looking into Stifle. It probably seems trivial, and it may be as I haven't tested it, but it could come in quite handy vs. a few things. This is becoming Split-Second Fetchland Tendrils.dec. 'Pates, Grips, Wipe Away...Trickbinding their Top on your go-off turn might not be that much of a stretch, lol (this is a joke, so no one take me serious).
Pce,
--DC
- Sideboarded Contract? What for? That could become the 2nd Abeyance.
- Why not maindeck that 4th Top so you can actually go off with Doomsday, not having to worry about not making enough storm off a complicated situation with a single IGG?
- 2nd Scrubland before the 2nd Underground Sea or the 2nd Tundra?
- From what I've been experiencing, more lands is usually very good with those 4 tops. I don't miss the Petals at all.
Contract: Controllish metagame at some point, just never really thought about dropping it, which is wierd 'cause I rarely use it (read: never). It's stupid, so I'll probably drop it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
Single IGG: Not complicated. When I ran 2, I never even needed to chain them. It was like running 59 cards, but worse as it's a lousy topdeck.
4th Top: I really want it...I guess I'll try petal down to 1. The Ponder at 4 is rediculous, I like it.
2nd Scrub: 4x Blue sources (Island, Trop, Sea, Tundra), 4x Black sources (2x Scrub, Sea, Swamp), 3x White sources (Tundra, 2x Scrub), 1x Green source (Trop). Going to Tundra #2 means 5 blue sources, 3 white sources, 3 black sources. Going for Sea #2 means 5 blue sources, 4 black sources, but only 2 white sources. The even split possible. is what's most helpful to me. Maybe my math is crap. I'd like to know if it is.
I don't know about the Petal...God, this is annoying. I guess I'll try an additional land. Don't know if it should be an Island or a plains...I suppose I could do this:
8x Fetches
1x Sea
1x Tundra
1x Trop
2x Scrub
1x Island
1x Swamp
U: 4
B: 4
W: 3
G: 1
For 15...and an additional Plains for a 4/4/4 source split, or an additional Island for a 5/4/3 split. I really NEED the third basic. I don't like getting screwed by Moon Effects (a driving force in my meta...), which leads me to which is better, being able to Wipe Away with just basics, or to be able to have 1 of each color? One would think that UU would be best...What do you think? BTW, this is why the Petal is such a big decision. I could drop petal, fetch the Island, and then any land drop would let me Wipe Away into a win turn 3 (possibly, at least). This also clarifies why I run a Slaughter Pact in the board as opposed to a Sudden Death. It helps with clearing a Magus to use your lands for the combo as opposed to needing BB or UU to get rid of it. Even Death Wishing (yes, I see the BB...) into it adds an additional 1 to a storm count, whereas wishing into a S. Death costs 2BBBB, which is not really a possibility with most hands through a Blood Moon and still comboing off that turn (something that you should do, as 7-8 moon effects and a set of chalices pre-board is a big fuck-you). I suppose this explains SOME of my changes.
Board will now look like this:
//Sideboard: 15
4x Grip
3x Serenity
1x Massacre
1x R. River
1x E. Truth
1x 'Pate
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Brain Freeze (This is a raper to Ichorid: Chant in response to 3rd Narc, Brain Freeze next turn)
2x Abeyance
A question I've been silently harboring is this: Since Serenity and Massacre are the only cards unable to be grabbed by Cunning Wish, would it hurt? Sometimes the life split can be extremely relevant.
Downsides:
--Can't grab 4x Spells from board
--can't grab Tendrils for 1x more storm after Doomsday.
--any other downsides?
Upsides:
--Instant=eot wishing
--No life-loss
--only 1 colored mana in cost
--still grabs Grip, so the inability to grab Serenity is less relevant.
--Grabs Brain Freeze, so not grabbing Tendrils isn't AS bad, plus going C. Wish-->Brain Freeze-->Tendrils is almost equal to a double Tendrils for BB less, so it's still semi-usable in a DD stack.
Thanks for the advice, lmk what you guys think about the wish thing.
Pce,
--DC
Do all Doomsday stacks rely on an SDT in play? Are there Doomsday stacks which do not use SDT, kill the same turn, and do not rely on the graveyard?
I was talking about being able to have more chances in getting SDT on the table so you wouldn't need to worry at all with IGG not getting enough storm. The paragraph below answered it, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Actually, it's closer to 12 blue sources, 12 black sources, 11 white sources and 9 green sources in your list (not counting that when fetching something, all sources are down by one), so the difference is not that relevant. But, since you actually need more blue sources than anything else, you might want to lower white to 10 or black to 11 and get that blue up by one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
With the high availability of each needed color, you should get yourself that basic Plains for Serenity against Blood Moon. Magus will still be there, though. The thing is that you need to be able to combo under a Moon, so I'd guess one of each basic land is a necessity.
Casting Brain Freeze and then Tendrils leaves your opponent half dead and half decked. He won't be dead in either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Death Wish was considered for being able to get anything from our sideboards to answer stuff and it ended up helping on the kill a very small little bit. Cards most fetched are Serenity, Extirpate and Tendrils. Cunning Wish helps with wishing for a good answer (Extirpate) and basically that's it. Emidln already dropped Death Wish after he got Extirpate into the MD and I'm on the way of dropping it too (Extirpate MD, also), since I never get to use it unless I really need that extra storm, which I don't recall happening, since somehow I would be able to get all that mana without getting all that storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
If you don't use LED to ramp mana up for Doomsday, you might have draws in hand, so no SDT is required. You can keep the single LED on the board and wait until you cast Brainstorm (if you don't need to trade cards) or Ponder or Draw4 to crack it in response.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Sensei's Divining Top is just used with Doomsday most often because it doesn't require a hand to start abusing your Doomsday pile. This enables more broken interactions with Lion's Eye Diamond (although LED is still useful with Doomsday stacks involving Brainstorm and Ponder). The only real requirement for playing Doomsday and winning this turn is having at least 2 life (plus whatever your stack might require (4 life is required if you want to Doomsday again or cast a Draw4 for example)) and some way to draw a card post Doomsday. A favorite stack of mine is [LED, LED, Brainstorm, IGG, Tendrils] and its derivative [LED, Petal, Brainstorm, IGG, Tendrils]. These require 3 total cards in hand after resolving Doomsday and either UU or U and an LED on the table to generate a minimum of 9 storm + Tendrils. The Doomsday stacks change greatly depending on your hand, your opponent's disruption, what kind of storm is necessary, and what win condition you want to use.
No, not all dd stax rely on Top, though most do. If you have the blue mana with Brainstorm/Ponder in hand AND M. Tutored/Drew into/topped into Doomsday, and you don't need to pop LED for the mana to go off, you can do that.
so:
BBB BBB BU being the necessary elements, and then grab petal for 1x storm without the need of mana, or grab top if you have an additional 1 for an additional spell instead, or Chant if you have BBB BBB BU and are still capable of producing W without popping LED. Chant would be for fear of Stifle or some such screw-over.
Doomsday into:
1.) Bargain/Contract
2.) Petal/Top/Chant
3.) Dark Ritual
4.) Either Ritual
5.) Tendrils
Then spend U leaving at least BBB in your mana pool, BBBW for chant pile, BBB1 for top pile. Draw Bargain, Petal/top/Chant/LED. Keep Bargain, play bargain hitting Petal/Top/Chant, Rit, Rit, Tendrils. This leaves either, B/1B/WB in your mana pool. Play petal/Top/Chant respectively, Rit, Rit, Tendrils. This of course is much less of a prominent play than Topping into a Doomsday stack.
Pce,
--DC
And what would be the best way to do said upping and downing of the colors? If I go up to 16 lands, 3 WILL be basic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
That's why Petals were so hard for me to let go of. Death Wishing into Slaughter Pact is most of the time the only way to get out from under a Magus. Having to Dark Rit away Pact's drawback is a disadvantage, but then I can 'Pate the hate.Quote:
With the high availability of each needed color, you should get yourself that basic Plains for Serenity against Blood Moon. Magus will still be there, though. The thing is that you need to be able to combo under a Moon, so I'd guess one of each basic land is a necessity.
Right now I'm at 16 lands. My original land count +1 Island. I'm gonna test a plains, though, also.
ehm....Disagree with you here. Top on table. Swamp into Rit, Threshed Cabal Rit (BBB BBB) (or some combination of rit effects), LED, IT popping LED for BBB (BBB BBB B). IT into DD, leaving you BBB B.Quote:
Casting Brain Freeze and then Tendrils leaves your opponent half dead and half decked. He won't be dead in either way.
Doomsday pile:
Bargain, petal, LED, Brain Freeze, Tendrils.
Top into bargain, bargain into petal, top, LED, Brain Freeze.
BBB B in mana pool. Play top. BBB left. Play Petal. BBB left. Play LED. BBB left. Sac petal, BBBU left. Brain Freeze (BB left) and pop LED in response (BBB BB left). tap top, draw Tendrils.
storm for: 19 with Tendrils...38 life, right? Who cares about the Brain Freeze in that situation, it's essentially double Tendrils for 1U. Math might be off, I suck at math. Especially off the top of my head. This is especially bad when playing storm...I do know it's a kill-shot, though.
Still a big part of my list as I have to play against Ichorid (I can grab E. Truth first game as well as 'Pate #2 quickly by going Rit, Wish, even popping an LED in response for UUU or whatever.) It's also an out against Magus.Quote:
Death Wish was considered for being able to get anything from our sideboards to answer stuff and it ended up helping on the kill a very small little bit. Cards most fetched are Serenity, Extirpate and Tendrils. Cunning Wish helps with wishing for a good answer (Extirpate) and basically that's it. Emidln already dropped Death Wish after he got Extirpate into the MD and I'm on the way of dropping it too (Extirpate MD, also), since I never get to use it unless I really need that extra storm, which I don't recall happening, since somehow I would be able to get all that mana without getting all that storm.
I'm running Extirpate MD also, and it's just not enough in my meta to justify dropping the Wish. In a general meta, such as GP Denver in August, I will probably drop it (actually, I need help deciding this...). Probably for a 4th Brainstorm. I dropped 1 in favor of 1x Ponder (up to 4x now along with 4x Top). The shuffle effects are really that important to me.
Pce,
--DC
I was just showing that you could use Infernal Tutor over Mystical Tutor to go off on turn 2, through Daze, also.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
BTW, has anyone considered running a speed build with a Doomsday Sideboard plan? The list would be fairly standard, MBing 4 petals and no Doomsday, and playing Double Tendrils. The SB would play 3 Top, 1 Doomsday, and 3 Lands. The idea would be that after game 1, people board in their graveyard hate, and you bring in a kill condition that doesn't use the 'yard.
Thoughts?
Storm copies the spell and puts each copy on the stack already, it doesn't play them. You'll have 9 storm before casting Freeze (the 10th spell). If you want to play Freeze now and then Tendrils, you'll have 30 cards in your opponent's graveyard and 22 life hits for him. He'll be dead, but it would be the same even if Freeze wasn't there, unless he's playing Life.dec. Anyway, in your example, you didn't take into account BBB used to cast Bargain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
8 FetchesQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
I'd run this. I'm on 17, adding to this one Underground Sea and still debating if I'm going to get Grip on the sideboard, so Trop is an Island. Anyway, blue is required by turn 1 and is useful in multiples for more than one cantrip per turn. White, depending on your opponent, is required also by turn 1 (time walking), but usually it is needed later (protection when going off). At last, black is the last color you are looking for, unless you are against aggro, for which you will need black at most on turn 3. Still, you have to consider things like Extirpate, Death Wish costing BB and stuff like that which kinda screw part of what I just wrote.
ehm....I'm a tool. Oh well. I might try that mana base. Thx.Quote:
ehm....Disagree with you here.
To the FT adepts: about how many matches does it take to start to be able to see multiple paths to the win and identify the optimal choice? From messing around with this deck I've gotten decidedly better at it, but I'm almost positive that I'm frequently missing 1 or 2 routes to the win and probably the optimal way to get there. Is this something that can be learned through increased familiarity with the deck?
Increased familiarity with the deck allows you to see all the options you can do to win. This deck is full of decisions you have to make, and being familiar with the deck, the deck you're against, and the situation of the game will help you sift out the right decision. Just continue playing it and you'll start seeing what I mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
I would like to discuss the list from above with explanations on the following card selection.
I believe the land selection is just fine with the maximum use of 8 fetches.
I would make the following changes if I played this list with top in it.
+2 Lotus Petal
+1 IGG
-1 Ponder
-1 Doomsday
-1 Death Wish
I just don't like having Death Wish or Doomsday in the deck whats so ever. I can see the justification behind adding top for street wraith. I don't agree with the switch b/c it slows down the deck and doesn't add to threshold.
Thats the same argument I would use with lotus petal. You are sacrificing too much speed and threshold ability in favor of a slower draw engine in top.
I believe Doomsday and Death Wish is just too unreliable to use in a combo deck which main focus is trying to win ASAP. This is the one reason I like the old version of the deck, the ability to beat aggro. I think you are opening yourself too much to that matchup which should basically be a bye for a combo deck.
Some discussion on why this is so much better than the first list of fetch land tendrils.
I don't see how Doomsday slows the deck down. By itself, it's an option to stack the deck into whatever you want to squeeze out from it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
When I'm casting a triple BBB spell, I want to win the game and this card does not do that. You have to wait a full turn to win and I don't like giving my opponent additional turns when playing combo.
The only triple BBB spell in the deck should be a draw 4, thats it.
With some acceleration and either SDT in play or Ponder/Brainstorm in hand Doomsday wins immediately. I wouldn't cast DD if I wasn't able to win right now, unless there was no other way to do it, and then DD is just perfect to set up a safe kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
I've non-lethal tendrils'ed before to get out of range of their kill, doomsdayed that turn after the tendrils, and passed. I got enough storm out of it to go lethal with the second Tendrils the next turn. I couldn't gas enough to get lethal the first time, but it got me close enough to feel comfortable both in life and in card advantage to pass and still win. I didn't have a Tutor in hand. Doomsday and ToA were in my hand. Went off for non-lethal tendrils on turn 3, won turn 4.
Otherwise, Doomsday is a Win-now card. Draw-4's are only useful to reload your hand or in conjunction with Doomsday. Stringing them sux for consistancy...
Pce,
--DC
Then you're not playing the card right. I never cast Doomsday unless I can win that same turn, or am sure of winning next turn (e.g. Chant on their upkeep against aggro, no pressure at all from a Sui- Black style deck, etc.)Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
BTW, is Krosan Grip really needed? The older versions refused to splash green only for it, why did that change?
Probably the increased Extirpate count, so you can now destroy and get rid of Counterbalance for good.
It really depends on your intelligence. No joke, it takes a different amount of matches for each person. However, if you goldfish an hour a day against disruption x and clock y, you should get it in a few days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
On Krosan Grip - It seems like a strong sideboard option. This deck isn't as scared of Counterbalance as a lot of other combo decks, but it's still hard to beat when backed by a strong clock. I'm going to plug my sideboard as a good option in most metas:
1 Tropical Island
2 KGrip
4 Serenity
2 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
1 Massacre
2 Extirpate
1 Infernal Contract
1 Wipe Away
Doomsday is a powerful option in this deck but should only be played as a one of because it is a highly situational wincon - you need to top of BStorm to make it work.
Here's the routes I take when playing this deck:
Against aggro -
IGG/Brainstorm + Doomsday
Against aggro - control like Threshold
Doomsday/Double Tendrils
Against blue based control like Landstill
Resolved Orim's Chant + IGG. Extirpate is really helpful here.
Against discard
IGG/Doomsday. Top is really helpful here.
I haven't had time to test my alternative sideboard idea: control tendrils to a more traditional FT list to a doomsday list postboard, or visa versa.
Just want to point out that casting Doomsday first and then Tendrils makes you have more life points, since you are not losing half of a bunch, but half of a bit and then winning a bunch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
That, and +1 storm from doomsday is always nice.
My latest list, I want to play 17 (maybe 16) lands, but I really dont know that to cut..
This is my list:
// Lands
1 [A] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [MM] Swamp
1 [ST] Plains
1 [U] Scrubland
2 [PT] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Spells
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
1 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
1 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [PLC] Extirpate
1 [WL] Doomsday
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains*
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [5E] Brainstorm
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [A] Tropical Island
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze**
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [WL] Serenity
* Still play 2, because you can't go: (when you have 2 mana) 2x Led (2 Storm) -> I Tutor (3) -> IGG (4) (take back 2x Led and Tutor) -> 2x Led (6) -> I Tutor (7) -> I Tutor (8) -> Tendrils (9), with only 1 Igg. Against any non-blue deck, I really like this kill, and with only 1 Igg you can only make 9 Storm
** Play it in SB instead of D Wish, against M Mage and Extirpate.. But I dont know if there is a better alt. win condition..
So what do you guys think I can cut the best.. (I think it will be 1 Igg and 1 LDV..)
Jip
Against non-blue decks you just need another accelerator (D.Ritual, LED, Petal or Cabal), a Ponder that draws a dark ritual or a Lotus petal, a mystical during upkeep for a Dark Ritual, a sensei played on turn 1 (go for Doomsday, tendrils for 20). The opponent could have fetched/thoughtseized or whatever takes 2 life from him. The only instance when somehow I'd want a second IGG is when the first get discarded, which is unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ
As you see, there are lots of roads to the kill in that situation, that requires just 1 card more out of your hand OR a sensei played the turn before. That's why I suggest cutting the second IGG for the 16th land, if not, just cut LDV.
I Think I go:
MB
-1 IGG
-1 M Tutor*
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Tundra
SB:
-1 Trop. Island
+1 Massacre
*I dont want to cut the LDV, because when you really! need a LED/Serenity, you can go M Tutor -> LDV, search for it. Ok its great card-disadvantage, but sometimes you really need 1 of those cards, and with cantrips/TOP it goes faster to draw those cards..
I would normally do this, but the situation was a bit different. I was playing against burn. I couldn't risk dropping down 8 life (@ 16 from a couple fetches and a SW) when he had RR open with a few cards in his hand (easy enough to go Bolt Bolt Blast). I didn't have chant backup (sometimes you just don't). Against burn you have exactly 4 turns (without Chant-walking, not that it matters a whole lot as they have quite a few instants), and I wanted to go off quick. Went off with 5x stormed Tendrils (from 16 life to 28) and stayed at 14 after Doomsdaying, pretty much out of reach, winning the next turn with chant protection (via Doomsday). He responded to chant with a bolt and a blast, but it didn't matter. I had more than 2 life left, so I won.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
Pce,
--DC
I'm having some problems in siding in the SDT version. With the Wraith version you usually just side out the Wraiths and you're done, but how do you guys side versus common matchups like thresh, landstill, ichorid...?
I'm also missing the confidants in the board. They helped a lot in the control/aggrocontrol matchup, expecially against black threshold (it has no removal for confi).
I'm currently running them because people nowadays think that FT doesn't play creatures, so they side their removal out anyway.
Here's the list I'm testing ATM:
// Lands
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [ST] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [MM] Island (3)
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [U] Tundra
1 [P3] Plains (1)
1 [B] Tropical Island
// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
1 [6E] Doomsday
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [OV] Abeyance
SB: 3 [WL] Serenity
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 1 free slot.
Ok, so here's a small tournament report:
6 People show up.
I'm playing an old FT list:
8 Fetches
2 Island
1 Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 LED
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Contract
4 Orim's Chant
1 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away
SB
4 Serenity
2 Echoing Truth
1 Trop
2 KGrip
2 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away
1 Rushing River
1 Massacre
1 Infernal Contract
Match 1, Game 1 vs. Bwg Homebrew.
I have the turn one win, but he's on the play. Great. He leads with Dark Rit -> Thoughtseize my Infernal Tutor -> Dark Confidant. I draw gas the next few turns and he Hymns me twice. At some point Goyf comes down and I'm forced to Tendrils him to 3. He Swords Confidant and kills me in a few turns.
Game 2 I take out a Wipe Away and bring in an Infernal Contract.
I go first, but I don't have the win. He leads with a Thoughtseize, taking my Infernal Tutor again, but I Mystical for another one EOT. I still can't win, and he Verdicts + Hymns me. I pull of Infernal Contract, but I don't draw the win and it's too late.
0-1
Match 2, Game 1 vs. Burn
He Bolt me. I win.
Game 2 I board in nothing.
He Bolts me. I draw. He bolts me twice. I win.
Match 3, Game 1 vs. Rgb Goblins with Maindeck Thorn of Amethyst
I keep a one land hand that can win on turn 2 if Brainstorm hits anything relevant. He wastes and it doesn't, so I lose to Lackey + Thorn and 2 Turns of dead draws.
Game 2 I take out Extirpate, Wipe Away, and 4 Street Wraiths for 4 Serenity and 2 Echoing Truth.
I fetch basics incase he plays Blood Moon. He drops Thorn and starts beating down, and I can't draw anything relevant -- not even an out.
Was this bad luck, or some fundamental problem with the way I'm playing the deck?
From personal expericne with this deck and every version leading up to it I would say your homebrew matchup was just a case of bad luck. I did get it worse once though. I had literally a perfect 7 card hand one time. 2 Petal, Chant, Plains, 2 LED, and Infernal tutor. Only problem. He went first going. Fetch into scrub into rit rit Hymm Hymm, Yea I didnt do to hot after that. He had one advantage in that game. He knew my deck inside and out since we had been testing against it the day before with a homebrewed sneak attack deck.
The second game was fairly typical. Although generally we are not quite that efficent in our combo turns... or at least I am not. Generally I win that match at around 11 life. Not counting my self inflicted damage which I try to avoid in that matchup.
The third game the jury is out on mainly due to a lack of information. For example what would be considered relevant in that game where you needed to find something of relevance off of Brainstorm? As for the second game I dont think I would have brought in the Serenities personally although Ace is a better person on that topic. I do know brining in the Echoing was a decent idea. Breaking the fetch for a basic was prolly a decent idea although again it depends on whats going on. i.e. had you taken a fetch what plays would that have given you in addition to what you got for plays off the basic. Overall given typical scenarios however it sounds like in this match they also got the god openings although it is impossible to know since you didnt say what he brought in off his lacky.
It's not all that bad luck on your side, but a lot of luck on the other side of the table.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
However, in that meta you could do some changes to the deck, cause I noticed you played against blue a grand total of zero times.
- I'd consider dropping the wraiths for SDT. Tops are good in any discard matchup and this was your worst mathup of the day.
- I'd consider dropping the maindeck Extirpate for Ponder: you faced only discard and permanent based hate, extirpate is not that great here.
- The only permanent based hate you faced is Thorn of Amethist. Krosan Grip is useless in this spot. I'd go with -2 Krosan Grip -1 Tropical +3 Dark Confidant.
And next time I play vs Burn I'd go with -1 Wipe Away, -1 Extirpate +2 Echoing Truth.
Your meta is possibly the best one to bring a deck like FT, but it's even better for TES, given the lack of blue and the "sorcery speed" of anything problematic you could encounter.
It's also lovely to see that you didn't face graveyard hate at all.
Next time, just go there and rape everyone in the room.
Yeah with the SDT-version it's more difficult to side in/out, but it's not impossibile.Quote:
I'm having some problems in siding in the SDT version. With the Wraith version you usually just side out the Wraiths and you're done, but how do you guys side versus common matchups like thresh, landstill, ichorid...?
For example against Angel Stax & Dragon Stompy I side out easily (like all people) the 4 Chants and Wipe Away (if I am in a blue heavy meta). Then I side out also a ToA: you never win with double ToA plan and your opponent usually gives you an hand decreasing his lifes with Ancient Tomb and mana burn. Also I side out Ponder that is the less relevant spell at CC1: if you keep an hand with more than one drop at CC1 usually you play before the other drop at CC1 instead of Ponder. I put some examples:
Do you prefer to play before a Sensei or Ponder if you are on the play against Angel Stax? Sure SDT that can help you both to search lands and to draw no cards at CC1 if opponent plays a Chalice at 1.
Do you prefer to play first a Ponder or keep mana open to play a Mystical in response to Chalice at 1 if you are on the play against Dragon Stompy? Sure Mystcal.
And so on....
So you can cut against these matchups Orim, Ponder, ToA and Wipe Away for others 9 cards: Serenity, Rushing River, E.Truth and Confidant (against Dragon Stompy I prefer Dark Confidant respect to Krosan Grip you can't play with a Moon effect into play). Ah you don't play the tutorable Rebuild, ahi ahi ahi.
Against Ichorid it's easy: you cut Wipe Away, a ToA and a SDT for E.Truth, the Extirpate and Abeyance. Why in this case SDT and no Ponder?
Because Ichorid it's a combo deck and Ponder allows to look the top 3 cards at a minor cost than SDT. You need speed in this matchup.
Same side in/out against TES. Someone side in Dark Confidant in this matchup (and mirror) because in this mode you can play more defensively: you can beat your opponent with DC while your opponent search a manner to round on your Orim. I'm not sure this is the right movement, usually you can't play fast DC because you need a W open also for bluff so usually you can play DC only in the third turn (or second with Petal) and you already have SDT that can give you a qualitative draw if you play defensively. Well I'm not sure about this my thought: I never test against TES in real, I don't know many TES players in my area (except me).
Against Threshold the side in/out depends from the color build of Threshold.
Against UGR, your opponent doesn't use Extirpate, Meddling Mage and Counterbalance so you don't need Wipe Away, Brain Freeze and Krosan Grip. You can't side in many cards against this matchup: only an Abeyance and an Extirpate (but I'm not sure these cards are really effective: Abeyance goes under Spell Snare build and often you haven't the time to play Extirpate: first Orim (often FoWwed), Extirpate on FoW, second Orim, bla bla bla 10 storm counts.
You can cut the bouncer and a Ponder or a SDT in this matchup, but these changes don't alter the percentages of win. I don't side in DC against a deck with many burn effects if I'm not sure that my opponent side out at least all Bolt (at least).
Against UGW there is more hate against combo in the form of Meddling Mage and Counterbalance.
In this case you can side in a Brain Freeze (or Massacre) if you know that your opponent plays Mage, the Grp if you know that your opponent plays Counterbalance, the Abeyance and Extirpate. Here I prefer to side out Ponder instead of SDT because UGW is more control than UGR. You can try to use DC, but if my opponent uses Snare, StP and Explosives I don't side in them.
Against UGB it's more difficult. It's a nightmare matchup like Dreadstill and others TrinketTopSolution matchups. Usually your opponent has both Counterbalance and Thoughtseize maindeck plus noisy cards like Extirpate, Wasteland & Spell Snare. In this case I'm not sure about the right side in/out. You can side too many cards, but I think that side in Dark Confidant is right, your opponent has only Smother and Spell Snare plus sometime Explosives against it.
In addition you can side in Krosan Grip, Abeyance and Extirpate. Perhaps too many cards? Yeah this is the other reason (beyond a weaker manabase) because I don't use Krosan Grip: a card that don't change too many the percentages of win and you can't side out too many cards because you risk to distort the deck. You can cut a ToA, Ponders and then? some Petal? a ToA? and then? You risk to distort too much your deck.
An example I do 3 games against Dreadstill. I do 1-2, 0-2, 2-0 and all the times my opponent plays Counterbalance, he wins. I don' try to improver a so bad matchup, instead I prefer to improve more balanced matchup (for example Rebuild against Stax or another Extirpate against Ichorid).
Landstill: too many various decklists.
Usually I side in Abeyance and Extirpate sure. Then I side in Brain Freeze if I know (or doubt) that my opponent plays Mage or Extirpate. I side out all Ponder beacuse SDT is too much strong in this matchup and usually the second ToA because with this build I see that it's more difficult to win with double ToA. ah usually I keep maindeck Wipe Away (other solution to Mage, surpreise fucking cards like Arcane Laboratory,....). Time ago I side out 1 LED, but with decklist I presume you need all the LED because of Doomsday.
About DC, well I'm not sure I need them in this matchup: usually at least there are 6 removals (StP and Explosives at least), plus with this decklist now we has SDT that can take partially the role of Confidant, so usually I don't side in but it's a choice that depends from many factors, so we can't decide pre-emptively.
I hope this is enough......
@Mental: I think you can change your decklist if you play in a meta like that.
Really you don't need cards like Extirpate, Wipe Away, Krosan Grip.
When I play with my friends I use E.truth maindeck because I know that nobody uses Counterbalance in my playtest group; instead when I go to tournaments I value the possibility to put Wipe Away maindeck.
Again (like I wrote some posts ago), there isn't a definitive FT-decklist, but a good decklist in the right metagame. Anyway in that meta I bring TES (maybe with Wheel of Fate tech in SB).
Given that both Wraith and Top can be Needled, and both can be sided out; and that opponents like Needling Top but not Wraith, and you like siding out Wraith but not Top; is that evidence for Top being the stronger choice, or is there something wrong with this sort of logic?
I'm rather convinced Empty the Warrens should exist as a one-of at least. With Mystical Tutor, Street Wraith and LED as well as a bunch of cantrips, I have found myself in otherwise bad positions where I could get a bunch of goblins very easily.
LED, cycle Wraith, crack LED in response and play a medium-sized EtW after some minor junk isn't impressive but the play demands very few resources; it is often possible after an opponent countered something, easily castable after a chant early on and can blindside opponents completely.
I hate to rely on EtW as a main win condition, but it's a decent out against many things and this deck actually has more synergy with it than most.