[Deck] Merfolk

I think you definatly need Banneret in order to play Courier. That thing cost bloody 3U!, you should win the game the turn after it resolvs at least 50% of the time for it to be good. Also, both Banneret and Courier has a really really weak body so without lords there really not all that good.

I have currently been testing out 7 1cc dropps of merfolks and I to often found them to be to weak. It's really too bad that there arn't any merfolks out there with a body. Basically, Silvergill is the strongest one there is :/

@Piceli89:
How does your current list look like? What are the problems with the deck in your opinion?

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Originally Posted by elof

I think you definatly need Banneret in order to play Courier. That thing cost bloody 3U!, you should win the game the turn after it resolvs at least 50% of the time for it to be good. Also, both Banneret and Courier has a really really weak body so without lords there really not all that good.

I have currently been testing out 7 1cc dropps of merfolks and I to often found them to be to weak. It's really too bad that there arn't any merfolks out there with a body. Basically, Silvergill is the strongest one there is :/

@Piceli89:
How does your current list look like? What are the problems with the deck in your opinion?

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You can find my old list in the posts above in the tread,but now i'm testing a list taken from one which got 1st in a tourney. I used to play only ports and stiflesm but, as you correctly underlined, ports eat too mana, and are often not so "decisive". Mutavaults should offer theat increase of aggroness and that greater sinergy with standstill whcih should take this deck on a higher level.

creatures- 20
4 loA
4 Reejerey
4 Adept
4 Cursecatcher
3 Thrasher
1 Tidal Warrior

Spells-19
4 Daze
4 FoW
3 Stifle
4 standstill
4 Vial

Lands- 21
12 island
3 Mutavaults
2 Ports
4 Wastelands


Despites this list is really similar to mine and performs pretty well, i still find the necessity to put some MD bouncers, so maybe i'd cut 1 standstill and 1 land to put +2 echoing truths. If a dreadnought or a solitary confinement (with loam) revoles, it's almost always gg, because of the total lack of removal mono-U merfolk decks have.
Moreover, iìm still not fullt convinced of having 9 colorless lands on a total of 21 with Lord that costs UU and back to basics in side, so probably i'd drop something to make the manabase a little bit more "coloured", maybe the 2 ports aren't necessary anymore. Needs testing.

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I wanna say that I'm extremely pleased in staring on Deckcheck.net how the merfolk decks are ramping towards all the top8s. At the moment, we have 28 Merfolks piloted in the top8s in all the tournaments, also the american ones.
Long live merfolks and fuck who dislike you !

Really solid list! After playtesting alot both yesterday and the day before I'm pretty close to your list. I will try out Ports, and I think that 2 is the best number since both Wastelands and Mutavaults are often better. Will try this.

And finally, 3 Stifle, is this card really that good? I know that it is when you use it but I have problem finding the way too use it. Sould you go for a first turn Stifle on a fetch or should you go for the defensive roll and try to Stifle Wastelands, EE, Deeds? So far, I have not been that convinced with Stifles but I will test them out.

Oh, is Echoing Truth the only good bounce there is? I friend of mine suggested Unsummon in that spot for fun, altough it didn't sound that bad. Of course, it does not answer any of our problems, I would like a card that is cheap and allows me to bounce vial/a critter before playing Standstill. Perhaps Echoing Truth does this best? Rushing River I found to be to mana intense.


Ohoh, a second oh. Just remembered you where thinking about UU for Lord of Atlantis. I have had very few problems with this, but have often tried more Tidals. It's hard to say how many islands is suffecient but I wouldn't want to go below 12. I have also noticed that I gotten to mulligan alot of hands, I think it might be because the lack of Brainstorm or it was just a fluke of bad luck. Will try more and let you know!

Keep it up merfolks!

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Originally Posted by elof

And finally, 3 Stifle, is this card really that good? I know that it is when you use it but I have problem finding the way too use it. Sould you go for a first turn Stifle on a fetch or should you go for the defensive roll and try to Stifle Wastelands, EE, Deeds? So far, I have not been that convinced with Stifles but I will test them out.

Oh, is Echoing Truth the only good bounce there is? I friend of mine suggested Unsummon in that spot for fun, altough it didn't sound that bad. Of course, it does not answer any of our problems, I would like a card that is cheap and allows me to bounce vial/a critter before playing Standstill. Perhaps Echoing Truth does this best? Rushing River I found to be to mana intense.

Keep it up merfolks!

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I perfectly understand what are you meaning with stifle, and i can ensure you that i thought that card to be God, until I brought merfolks with 4 stifles maindeck to a tournament with a good level of playing kills and realized how the metagame is aware of the massive presence of it and so every player i met thought two times before cracking fetches / bomb deed / bomb ee / lavamancer me when i had a U open. And so, i think that 3 is the correct number, since , after all, stifle > metagame ( it DOES everything) if you understand when it's the correct time to play it and ruins opponent's plans , and also when it's the time to stifle something relevant and maybe be forced also to start a counterwar and waste resources to make that stifle resolve.


For what concerns echoing truth, it is preferable over Unsummon ( i swear that i thought to that card, too, one time :tongue: ) because it bounces not only creatures, but a non land permanent in general. Do you know what it means ? That echoing truths gives us a chance to suddenly change the face of the game since the 1st game wagainst decks such as stax, dragon stompy, enchantress,and even the rock, which aren't really shining Mus for merfolks. Bouncing a smokestack / chalice/ trinisphere / solitary confinement/ pernicious deed (yes, it may occur to make them lose a time recasting it when we've not stifle ) and other pesky permanents is priceless, believe me.
Not to talk about the utility echoing truths has against goblins tokens of Belcher and zombie tokens of Ichorid, it's really nuts and can give us a little but existant possibility to race them - or, at least, to make them waste a lot of cards :wink:
And , finally, echoing truth is obviously useful when they have multiple permanents which may stall or decide the game, and with this i don't only refer to the forementioned ones , but also to tarmogoyfs, crushers, angels--> creatures bigger than ours ". Bouncing two shitty tarmogoyfs in eot and landing standstill in the turn after is fucking insane.
Ah, echoing truth seems also to perform well against mass removals, such as wrath of god in landstill; since in this MU you aren't really going to bounce anything of their permanents, you can respond to a WoG or a deed bounving your own creatures (specially if you have 2 lord of atlantis on the board and don't want to lose them)/vials ( it may happen ) to hand and leaving them with a happy face XD.
Give it try , dude, and tell me what do you think of it.

Chain of Vapor might also be something worth looking at.

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Originally Posted by mans0011

Chain of Vapor might also be something worth looking at.

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read the posts before commenting. Chain of vapor was already badly exclused because of his antisinergy with a deck based on creatures.. we're not ANT.

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Originally Posted by elof

Really solid list! After playtesting alot both yesterday and the day before I'm pretty close to your list. I will try out Ports, and I think that 2 is the best number since both Wastelands and Mutavaults are often better. Will try this.

And finally, 3 Stifle, is this card really that good? I know that it is when you use it but I have problem finding the way too use it. Sould you go for a first turn Stifle on a fetch or should you go for the defensive roll and try to Stifle Wastelands, EE, Deeds? So far, I have not been that convinced with Stifles but I will test them out.

Oh, is Echoing Truth the only good bounce there is? I friend of mine suggested Unsummon in that spot for fun, altough it didn't sound that bad. Of course, it does not answer any of our problems, I would like a card that is cheap and allows me to bounce vial/a critter before playing Standstill. Perhaps Echoing Truth does this best? Rushing River I found to be to mana intense.


Ohoh, a second oh. Just remembered you where thinking about UU for Lord of Atlantis. I have had very few problems with this, but have often tried more Tidals. It's hard to say how many islands is suffecient but I wouldn't want to go below 12. I have also noticed that I gotten to mulligan alot of hands, I think it might be because the lack of Brainstorm or it was just a fluke of bad luck. Will try more and let you know!

Keep it up merfolks!

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Stifle/fetch first turn is always the right play, it throws off everything. It can result in color screw, its an instant timewalk, sometimes it might just win you the game right there. And it makes your opponent fear it and play around it

@ Piceli89: Do you feel comfortable with just 3 Stifles? In my opinion, playing less than the full playset is inconsequent. You want to have one in your opening hand to stifle the first fetchland, as well as you want to stifle EEs/Deeds/Kegs, etc. in the mid to lategame.

My list looks like this:

// Lands
12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher

// Spells
4 AEther Vial
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Rushing River

I'd like to play three Thrashers, but the list seems to be very tight as it is right now.

In testing, the deck has been a beast against blue based control, Thresholdesque decks and fastcombo. Nevertheless, I'd had some problems with Loam (doable, if you've got a fast start) and Goyf Sligh (almost impossible for me to win preboard).

I didn't have figure out a sideboard right now, but I'd really love to see 8 cards dealing with red (either BEBs or Chill), 4 Relics and some generic anti aggro cards (Jitte?). On the other hand, CB top is good against Sligh, too ... Well, I don't know, really.

A rough draft:
4 Blue Elemental Blast / 4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chill / 4 Counterbalance
3 Umezawa's Jitte

/Edit: I could think of cutting a Vial in favour of the 3rd Thrasher - opinions?

my list:

4 Rishadan Port
4 Mutavault
12 Island

4 Silvergill Adept
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Tidal Warrior
4 Cusecatcher
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Lord of Atlantis

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

SB:
4 Seasinger
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus

weak spot: Wake Thrasher (yes, not a 4x imho) and Cursecatcher (often useless)

I consider Manta Rider instead of Cursecatcher and another Island instead of 1x Wake Thrasher

@Piceli89:
I totally agre with you. I will try out Echoing Truth some more. Will also test Stifle alot more than before.

@murderface:
Yes, I know Stifling a fetch first turn is gold. I have manly problems when I keep a hand that looks something like: "landlight", Stifle, Vial. If I go for Stifle and my opponent doesn't drop a fetch, I have basicly lost my first turn and my opponent have gotten a free tempo turn. This is very important for spells like Standstill that really needs to be played before the opponent can put treaths on the board. I will try it some more before I decide.

@Shimster:
Really solid list! Have you tried Truth? With just 20 lands and 8 of them not being islands (and therefore wasteable) I can sometime have some problems reaching 2U, and also, how often do you want to play the kicker (I guess very often), doesn't this effect your landtotal? Finally, how often do you wish you had a bounce that you could have used a turn earlyer becasue you have Standstill and your opponent has [random creature]?

@Poron:
I tried something similler to your list, how is 8 1/1 critters working out for you? Isn't it a pain in the ass every time the OP plays a blocker? And as you say, sometimes Cursecatcher is worthless and in some, not to rare, cases Tidal is worthless to, what do you do then?

Manta Riders doesn't seem to good too me but I might be wrong? Some list do play them, often with Sygg. I however think it's very dependant on a lord in order to be decent.

Is Seasinger good? I have glanced at it before and wondered. To bad it doesn't have shroud :P

I'm testing Rushing River and Echoing Truth, maybe I should've mentioned it in my last post. Both cards a rock solid on their own. That goes without saying. :smile: The question is, what do you want the bounce to do?

I favour Rushing River because it bounces two permanents most of the time AND evades Counterbalance easily. On the other hand, Echoing Truth is capable of handling 2+ tokens and costs just 1U.

Echoing Truth would strengthen the UWx Landstill MU, the fastcombo and Dredge MU (which is still horrible).

Rushing River would strengthen the Aggro MU (which is still in their favour) and the Thresh MU.

@Shmister: the fact with stifle is that it could be surely good in 4x, but probably if you areplaying against the random noobs you meet on mws who doesn't stop and think a bit while cracking a fetch and you have U open. In a tournament level, stifle gets more "foreseen" so, i repeat myself for another time, the opponent will think twice before activating a fetch or a mass removal. It's true that this slows down their game more or less consistently, but stifle at that point becomes an almsot dead card if they know how to play around it. And if you pack standstill in 4x ( i hope with mutavaults) and the adepts, i think that you have sufficient car drawing to get tht stifle in your hand. Since I'm testing 3-ofs,I'd even place the 4th in the side if there was room.
To your list: it seems good, but trust me when i say that thrasher deserves a 3x.That card is the most massive fish we have; i'd personally cut a stifle (:D) to fit the 3rd. But if you're decided to stay with the 2-ofs, i'd cut a land, 'cause 19 is really enough for this deck, even if this deck really needs lands (apart from having vial) to activate the mutavaults. By the way, I personally prefer echoing truth.
It's true what you have said about the fact that rushing river makes 2 for 1 , but sacrificing a land and the higher mana cost ( 3) makes it inferior to echoing truth. Why ? Because in most of the cases you really need only to bounce a permanent ( it can be something that really hurts you such as Moat or Trinisphere ), while the situation where there are 2 permanents troubling you isn't really that frequent.
You say that RRiver is better versus aggro ? I don't think so, since aggro usually runs land destruction and, in the case of thresholds /fishes, free counters such as daze. Try to reach the 3 mana while being wastelanded a bit on your mutavaults, and maybe you too have been forced to waste something in order to slow them down. I can swear you that 3 mana aren't so fast to gather with this deck as they could seem. And if you fear tarmogoyfs or Zoo creatures, just exploit what this deck has best versus creatures blocking : the pumping effect of our Lords and , most of all, the insane ability of Reejerey to twiddle everything you want when you drop a merfolk. And since Goblins is a bad MU, 3 -4 propagandas should never miss in your SB.
These , of course, are just my ideas , but they revealed themselves as being right most of the times. Just give' em some consideration, then you'll decide to make as you want :laugh:

Lands 20
12 Island
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

Creatures 22
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
2 Tidal Warrior
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat

Spells 18
4 AEther Vial
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Echoing Truth

I like more Echoing thruth than rushing river, but it is about you.
As for stifle.. as being a tribal deck i opt to add 2 tidal warrior and 2 Sygg..
For all other cards. Ok. No more than 2 Wake Thrashers are needed.

Heres the list I've been toying around with recently:

4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
9 Island
4 Blue fetchland
3 Trop. Island

4 Aether Vial

4 Standstill

4 Cursecatcher
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

I've been thinking of trying out 2 Jitte in the main, cutting a Wake Thrasher and a land.

Green for side board (Krosan Grip?)

24 lands, fetches without brainstorm and tropical islands for probably sb krosan grip (i hope it's not a tarmogoyf because you'd be a nerd that case) which isn't really required in this deck? MMhhhh there's something which is not clear here.
However, stifle is a must have in this deck. You posted a list where there's no stifle. With such a configuration, the opponent will just have to protect a bit its mass removal when casting it from your counters and then pop it, and popping a pernicious deed without the possbility to stifle it means losing all the permanents to this deck ( well, except the lands and so the mutavaults, but you know, wasteland exists also for the others...)
iIt's not pretty cool this thing, don't you find ?

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

However, stifle is a must have in this deck. You posted a list where there's no stifle. With such a configuration, the opponent will just have to protect a bit its mass removal when casting it from your counters and then pop it, and popping a pernicious deed without the possbility to stifle it means losing all the permanents to this deck ( well, except the lands and so the mutavaults, but you know, wasteland exists also for the others...)
iIt's not pretty cool this thing, don't you find ?

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This deck has 8 counterspells.
Also, you can cast Echoing Truth if they have no mana to play and sac in 1 turn,
And finally you have 3 manlands. Not the best you could have on board but you are not fucked totally.
I think Stifle is a waste slot in this deck

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Originally Posted by Shimster

I'm testing Rushing River and Echoing Truth, maybe I should've mentioned it in my last post. Both cards a rock solid on their own. That goes without saying. :smile: The question is, what do you want the bounce to do?

I favour Rushing River because it bounces two permanents most of the time AND evades Counterbalance easily. On the other hand, Echoing Truth is capable of handling 2+ tokens and costs just 1U.

Echoing Truth would strengthen the UWx Landstill MU, the fastcombo and Dredge MU (which is still horrible).

Rushing River would strengthen the Aggro MU (which is still in their favour) and the Thresh MU.

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Rushing River also avoids CotV. This is important when facing White Stax.

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

24 lands, fetches without brainstorm and tropical islands for probably sb krosan grip (i hope it's not a tarmogoyf because you'd be a nerd that case) which isn't really required in this deck? MMhhhh there's something which is not clear here.
However, stifle is a must have in this deck. You posted a list where there's no stifle. With such a configuration, the opponent will just have to protect a bit its mass removal when casting it from your counters and then pop it, and popping a pernicious deed without the possibility to stifle it means losing all the permanents to this deck ( well, except the lands and so the mutavaults, but you know, wasteland exists also for the others...)
iIt's not pretty cool this thing, don't you find ?

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It's seems pretty obvious that you don't go all in with deck. Save some bodies for post wrath effects seem pretty good to me :rolleyes:. I guess if you just want to play as many guys as possible the it's a bad strategy...

Yeah I put green in the board for some enchantment removal.

I've won 2 25-35 man tourneys with this deck, and let me just tell you, echoing truth is not needed. Why? I maindeck the Relic of Progenitus (3 of them, and run 4 waste,3 muta, 12 islands). I can't believe how amazing the card is, you can drop it first turn, let them play a tarmogoyf, then drop a standstill without fear of goofy mauling you. It cantrips when you don't need it, but right now every deck in the DTB forum and almost every other deck uses their graveyard or some type of recurrence. It turns the major threat of almost every deck into a laughable, muta-killable 0/1 dumbo. It makes thresh a walk in the park (Yeah it was before, but now it's just hillarity), it gives you at least as much help against ichorid, although echoing truth is game over as well.

Team america pretty much can't win against an early relic, IGG loop is done, rock decks can't use volrath or witness, stax can't use crucible, goyf sligh's goyf, pyromancer, and 1 barbarian ring die (but they still beat the crap out of us).

I dunno, there is no reason in my mind to not use this card. The random stax matchup isn't as important as the random goyf matchup, and as I said, the few decks that are oblivious to this card you can just use its cantrip with, which this deck also needs.

I picked up this deck a day or two ago, and it;'s pretty interesting. I'm sure what I'm going to say might appear obvious to some, but keep in mind I just picked up the deck. Anyhow, here's what I found out after playing a number of games:

- I really don't like Wasteland in the deck. It's definitely NOT useless, as the ability to kill annoying lands like Glacial Chasm is pretty cool, however, what's more annoying is not being able to get UU for damn Lord of Atlantis. I just think the deck is better off with just Islands and Mutavaults. I run 17 Island, 24 Mutavault. On that note, I've been comfortable running 21 land at this point.

- Some of you are talking about running Stifle. I like Stifle, but I think it's a hit-or-miss card, thus I think running it depends on how well you know your meta. May I suggest running Spell Snare instead? So far, I MD 3 Spell Snare. Very good on the draw, obv. If you do use Spell Snare, you should side them out only if you know you're going to be on the draw for either g2 or g3 (and side out Daze for on the play g2/g3, mind you).

- Looks like most of you who posted lists agree on this, but I guess I'll be one of the first to emphasize this: 4 Standstill is a MUST. An absolute must. Most of my wins off of Merfolk have been off of drawing from Standstill. 4 AEther Vial, 4 Mutavault, cheap creatures and countermagic, always run Standstill. ALWAYS. You're crazy not to.

- Someone here mentioned that 2 Wake Thrasher is enough. I highly disagree with that notion. Wake Thrasher is one of your strongest creatures. In my playing with Merfolk, I'm almost never disappointed in seeing Wake Thrasher. It's the deck's trump card. Play 4.

- Have any of you tried Waterfront Bouncer? It's a really neat card. It seems particularly useful in this meta, as screwing over Dreadnoughts or Tombstalkers seems awesome. I'm not suggesting running this over Seasinger, by the way.

Here's my creature suite so far:

4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
3 [SH] Tidal Warrior
2 [MM] Waterfront Bouncer
3 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis

I took out 1 LoA because I really wanted to fit in Waterfront Bouncer.

Oh, one last observation:

Tidal Warrior is actually pretty USEFUL. I'd say it's strictly better than Cursecatcher (then again, Cursecatcher is too narrow). Not only does it allow for you to alpha strike unblocked (think Warrior + LoA), but it can act as a hoser as well. You can use it on your opp's land to shut him off a color, or 2 colorless. I used Warrior against Team America by trying to shut off my opp's Bayou, trying to to stop him from having B/G to cast Stalker or Goyf.
Like I said, I"m sure some of you noticed that, but I was pretty surprised to learn this detail about Tidal Warrior's ability. BUt yeah, it's still pretty weak so I just use 3.

That's all I have to say for Merfolk. I'm going back to campus so I won't be able to play MWS, but I thought I'd share what I learned from playing Merfolk. It really is an interesting deck and I hope it gets better.

P.S. I recommended Rushing River on the page before. Perhaps Wipe Away is way better, especially against Dreadstill.

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Originally Posted by Shawon

- I really don't like Wasteland in the deck. It's definitely NOT useless, as the ability to kill annoying lands like Glacial Chasm is pretty cool, however, what's more annoying is not being able to get UU for damn Lord of Atlantis. I just think the deck is better off with just Islands and Mutavaults. I run 17 Island, 24 Mutavault. On that note, I've been comfortable running 21 land at this point.

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I really think you're missing a key concept of this deck. It doesn't have a strong matchup late game to control decks, as it usually runs out of steam when running into mass removal (only running so many stifle/FoW will eventually lead to you running out). Keeping tempo is key here, and if you can slow down an opponent by wastelands and rishadan ports, you had better try. Plus 12 islands is almost always enough to play the LoA, but honestly, you shouldn't play him unless you know he won't be instantly sworded or burned. Also, aether vial doesn't care about colors, and you should get this ~44% of your opening hands.

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- Some of you are talking about running Stifle. I like Stifle, but I think it's a hit-or-miss card, thus I think running it depends on how well you know your meta. May I suggest running Spell Snare instead? So far, I MD 3 Spell Snare. Very good on the draw, obv. If you do use Spell Snare, you should side them out only if you know you're going to be on the draw for either g2 or g3 (and side out Daze for on the play g2/g3, mind you).

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Spell snare doesn't stop many threats to this deck, only sometimes stopping EE, and never stopping deeds/wrath/nev's disk. Stifle is an all in one card, helping you with screwing over colors of an opponent's base, while keeping a huge threat to the opponent leaving a deeds or EE on the board (keeping in mind that there's a huge threat of keeping it in their hand because you are more likely to draw a FoW).

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- Someone here mentioned that 2 Wake Thrasher is enough. I highly disagree with that notion. Wake Thrasher is one of your strongest creatures. In my playing with Merfolk, I'm almost never disappointed in seeing Wake Thrasher. It's the deck's trump card. Play 4.

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I'm very skeptical of this statement, and it's probably just due to you not having playtested this deck very much. Let's look at the bad matchups first. Goyf sligh wrecks this deck, and 80% of the nonland cards in that deck can ping a 1/1 thrasher right off the bat. Mogg Fanatic laughs in the face of your 3cc 1/1 merfolk, along with grim lavamancer and every burn in their deck. I've also gotten this guy sworded so many times as a 2 of, that I've actually considered dropping him. I never would because I've won some games where I drop him in and next turn swing for lethal, but you really need to take into account how easy he is to kill, and how much of an investment you're paying for it. He isn't necessary to beat your good matchups, and he just sucks in the bad ones. 2-3 is my playtested range of goodness for him.

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- Have any of you tried Waterfront Bouncer? It's a really neat card. It seems particularly useful in this meta, as screwing over Dreadnoughts or Tombstalkers seems awesome. I'm not suggesting running this over Seasinger, by the way.

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First off I can't believe you would ever drop a LoA for this card. But as a creature, he is very slow, has a large cost (although with your extra islands in here, I can see how you have pointless cards to pitch for his ability), and quite frankly doesn't belong in a deck that tries to gain tempo and win before the opponent catches up. If you really like the bounce that he provides (if he lives through his summoning sickness) then why not just run the echoing truths?

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Tidal Warrior is actually pretty USEFUL. I'd say it's strictly better than Cursecatcher (then again, Cursecatcher is too narrow). Not only does it allow for you to alpha strike unblocked (think Warrior + LoA), but it can act as a hoser as well. You can use it on your opp's land to shut him off a color, or 2 colorless. I used Warrior against Team America by trying to shut off my opp's Bayou, trying to to stop him from having B/G to cast Stalker or Goyf.
Like I said, I"m sure some of you noticed that, but I was pretty surprised to learn this detail about Tidal Warrior's ability. BUt yeah, it's still pretty weak so I just use 3.

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Haha this is great. I won't go into the obviousness of saying how everyone who played this deck knew about the LoA+ Tidal Warrior synergy. I'm just laughing at how amazing you think it is to shut people out of their colors with tidal warrior... if only they could print some lands that would also keep people off of their colors... like wasteland or rishadan port... and if only these cards could be used in a mono-colored deck that can support having the colorless by not really needing more than 2 islands to cast any spell.

On the other hand, Cursecatcher single handedly makes your life vs. TES, ANT, and Ichorid far easier. Also, used in conjunction with stifling and wastelanding the opponent's lands, you can effectively stop their removal spells on your 8 lords, or slow them down 2-3 turns. The deck likes having about 6 merfolk that cost 1 in there to make sure you get a merfolk or vial out turn 1 before your turn 2 standstill. Not to mention the always fun sneak attack vial him in to counter a spell.

Yeah. I am amazed at how many people are playing Tidal Warriors. Even more amazing are the decks with Tideshaper Mystics. The alpha strike scenario is never going to happen against any deck that is decent piloted by any player who is decent. In fact, one of the weaknesses of the deck is the fact that it usually needs more than one creature in play to be effective - and this is hard to do against aggro-control and control opponents. That is the biggest reason why Wake Thrasher should be a 4-of in every single build. He kicks ass and takes numbers all by himself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CleverPetriDish

That is the biggest reason why Wake Thrasher should be a 4-of in every single build. He kicks ass and takes numbers all by himself.

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Phoenix Ignition has jusy explained to all in a very explicative ( and therefore, very right) way the reason why thrasher should be in 2-3x in Merfolks, and i fully support and give reason to his considerations. Thrasher is , most of the times, as strong in certain matchups as a card you would never like to draw in others. Do you think it's strong to draw a 3cc 1/1 against the rock or sligh- or even decks packing fire/ice ? it will be automatically killed, wasting 3 manas or, if you got lucky, a vial-hit.
Do you think it's strong to draw a 3cc 1/1 against decks which tend to gain enormous advantage as the turns pass over ? Absolutely yes. Just play against white stax, understand how wake thrasher is a bomb agaisnt this archetype and you'll sonely realize that he can win alone this matchup as long as you'll overextend your permanents to save from smokestack , counter the worst threats he'll play , and try to save also 2 mana for ghostly prisons, if any. It'll be at least 6/6 that will crush the opponent in 2-3 hits ( assuming that he uses ancient tomb and gets hurt by them).
Let's adfirm that it's a card which can be as strong as the most weak in the deck, depending on the situations, so 2-3 x is the right quantity for it.
And the fact that you say that you sometimes side out a Lord of Atlantis means that you haven't got the aim of the deck properly, since lord of atlantis is the core of the deck. A 2/2 for 2 that gives islandwalk ( read: the possibility not to be blocked by the 65-70 % of the decks-thestrongest ones-too- in legacy) and +1/+1 ( read: a faster, faster race for you) is always 4-ofs, and should never be questioned among the cards to side out. The only time when you could side him out is against the mirror, if you fear that Lord of Atlantis could give your opponent an excessive advantage if he gets more lucky than you and he has more merfolks on the board ( but he'll probably think the same thing).
Even fearing to not hit the UU for him is not really a think to worry about, since in the first turn of the game you must focus on destroying opponent's mana, by wasteland , port and stifle, but also to drop vial and begn to drop the "structural" guys - cursecatcher above all, which is 2000 times stronger than warrior because legacy is a format based on creature but most of all on istants and sorceries (think to landstill, combos, and even thresh)- and silvergill adept. Then, get your lords and drop them beginning to hit like a maniac, caring that they don't get destroyed ( and here, again, cursecatcher is amazing in saving its kings' asses).

Sorry for the double post,
but
other 2 merfolks lists made top 8 in two big tourneys in spain: 1st and 2nd positions. OMFG this deck is going to become a tier1. Now i fully believe in this. SERIOUSLY.

I think that's like the 10th time in this thread that you've said you believe in this deck. Too bad magic, unlike Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't have a "believe in the heart of the cards" mantra.

On another note, no one has responded to my comments on maindecking the Relics. I would like to see more discussion on this, for the reasons I stated previously.

I said that i believe in this deck because all thnk that is a standard shit imported in legacy and consider it to be a crappy abherration just because it doesn't run 4 tarmogoyfs, so I'm very pleased to see that they weren't true about this and that merfolk is really a good deck. Now results are effectively proving this. So don't try to flame me, dude.
I am trying 2 relics maindeck ( i cut the 2 echoing for them) and testing on mws, and i feel they' re quite good, even if many times i wished they were echoings instead. However, since I'm gonna play in a meta full of threshes, I will keep them maindeck. After all, there's also a nice sinergy with thrasher, and the cantrip doesn't sound so bad even if the opponent plays a non-graveyard based deck.
Let's say that
Relic > ETruth against: Threshold, Aggro loam (not always), Team America, Ichorid (well, this depends on how fast the opponent can pull off the combo), IGG loop, Survival, The Rock (partially), and in general: decks abusing goyf, stalker and lftl.

ETruth > Relic against: Enchantress, Stax, Stompies- both Dragon and Faerie, DREADSTILL ( if a dreadnought resolves, it gets really hard, while before i had the little possibility to bounce him back), Belcher.

Of course I'm missing some decks, these came to my mind immediately.
I'll carry on testing them and I'll tell you which seem to be more useful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

Relic > ETruth against: Threshold, Aggro loam (not always), Team America, Ichorid (well, this depends on how fast the opponent can pull off the combo), IGG loop, Survival, The Rock (partially), and in general: decks abusing goyf, stalker and lftl.

ETruth > Relic against: Enchantress, Stax, Stompies- both Dragon and Faerie, DREADSTILL ( if a dreadnought resolves, it gets really hard, while before i had the little possibility to bounce him back), Belcher.

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That's my point exactly. For decks it's better against you just named 7 specific decks, 4 decks coming from the DTB section. For decks it's worse against, you name 5 decks, only 1 coming from the DTB section. You can see how this card is better against every deck that isn't dreadstill, and at least with dreadstill we both run manlands, so the only thing to watch out for is a dreadnought, so you just have to make sure you have a counterspell ready, or just hope to slow them up enough to get a decent amount of folk to race it.

Also, against dragon stompy/faerie stompy, relying on a 2 of echoing truth to just slow them down a single turn isn't going to do very much. It might win the game since merfolk runs so much off of tempo and the one turn could be the game deciding turn, but in general I'd rather run a card in here that deals with 90% of decks than a card that just marginally helps against some decks.

Relic turns the 4 goyfs into a laughing stock, and cantrips when unnecessary (a huge bonus that echoing truth doesn't have except for it's ability to pitch to FoW). I run 3 just because it hoses so many decks right now. 3 echoing truth in the sideboard handle the rest of the matchups, but really the relic is just far better for the Merfolk than ET.

And think about it, when merfolk becomes something that isn't laughed at by people like the American national team, people are going to see the maindeck relics and start changing the metagame to not heavily rely on goyf/tombstalker/loam/crucible/ichorid/IGG/academy ruins/volrath's/threshold/squee.

And that's a metagame that I would love to see, since I love coming up with new deck ideas, but right now the current archetypes are too strong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

I run 3 just because it hoses so many decks right now. 3 echoing truth in the sideboard handle the rest of the matchups, but really the relic is just far better for the Merfolk than ET..

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This seems good to me , could you show me your list ? because i think too that relic in 3-ofs are a good inclusion, but i can't really find room for another one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

And think about it, when merfolk becomes something that isn't laughed at by people like the American national team, people are going to see the maindeck relics and start changing the metagame to not heavily rely on goyf/tombstalker/loam/crucible/ichorid/IGG/academy ruins/volrath's/threshold/squee.
And that's a metagame that I would love to see, since I love coming up with new deck ideas, but right now the current archetypes are too strong.

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I'm staring at how the deck is beginning to be played also here in italy, even if only 1 week ago it was badly despised by all the players with the "cool " decks; in spite of this, i believe that, even if merfolks will reach the DTB status, no one will really care about if we pack relic MD to the point that they'll change the configuration or their decks ( this can mean a smaller quantity of threats relying on the graveyard, or even pithing needle MD), and it's even more difficult that the'll change decks. It seems that , in magic ( or, at least, in legacy), certain decks belong to a "conservative " point of view of many players who'll never give up certain archetypes ( such as Thresh): it may become a tier2 (which very difficultly will happen), it may be pwned by merfolks, but they'll never renounce to play it.However, I'm still happy if this happens , since now i think that Merfolks is quite advantaged playing against those decks you named above, and usually the chances to win against them are very good ( of course, it depends on the players' choices and luck in drawing, but we can adfirm that relic gives a great boost in this matchups).

Well, we'll see what happens... For now, let's improve this deck.

Tournament Report:

40 some man tournament I just played in with merfolks, and I won it. I'll post my results and deck for discussion, but the only card maindeck that I'm still not completely happy with is Sygg, River Cutthroat. The deck needs to have this many merfolk though, so I won't accept a change for Sygg that isn't one. Also, Sygg is much better than Tidal Warrior, so that also will not be a substitute. 3 Stifles and 3 Dazes were the perfect number. I don't really like having 4 dazes because top decking them late game is the worst thing ever, and as this deck has a lot of those terrible cards late game (daze, aether vial, islands, sometimes standstills). Also, the relics are what pushed this deck over the top, making some almost unbeatable matchups (aggro loam) into coin flips. Rishadan ports are horrible in this deck, and I am very glad that I didn't run them. This deck needs as many islands as possible, after accommodating the 4 wastelands and 3 mutas. I have been thinking of running 1 Riptide Laboratory but haven't tried it out at all yet. Also, playing no echoing truths leaves us wide open to the Moat -> commence scoop phase, but FoW hopefully is enough.

List:

12 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
2 Wakethrasher
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat

4 Aether Vial
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle

SB:
2 Propaganda (I call it ichoscoop)
3 Chill (not nearly enough to make burn/sligh favorable, but I couldn't in my right mind play with no SB for them)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (see chill, also good against random aggro deck)
2 Pithing Needle (vs random stuff or mishra's factory)
3 Echoing Truth (good against lots of things)
2 Back to Basics (Aggro loam and the rock)
2 Sower of Temptation (Aggro Loam and random big creature decks)

Report: Overall 6-0-3
Game 1 Match 1: Belcher deck. Game 1 I play island, daze and force his hand-emptying attempt to belcher me. Swiftly pounded him with random merfolk soon after.
SB: +3 Echoing Truth +2 Pithing Needle, -2 Sygg -3 Relic
Game 2 M1:He plays land says go, I play island, cursecatcher, say go. He then proceeds to go off, I sac cursecatcher, he RFGs a spirit guide, accumulating enough mana (7) to counter my FoW on his Burning Wish with a pyroblast and Empty the warrens for 14. I don't rip an echoing truth and die.
G3 M1:Start with a sick hand after my first mulligan, stifle, FoW, Echoing Truth, Cursecatcher, silvergill, island. He eventually empties the warrens after pyroblasting both my FoW and my Stifle on it, but scoops soon after the echoing truth hits:cool: .

1-0

G1M2:Homebrew with Cursed Scrolls. Game 1 I got out 3 lords and a mutavault while he only got a dark confidant and managed to swords to plowshares one of them. Bashed for 7, 6 (after chump block), and game respectively.
SB: didn't see the cursed scrolls, -3 stifle +2 Sower +1 Jitte
G2M2:Start out with a cursecatcher, he drops a cursed scroll. I play 2 consecutive silvergills while he puts another cursed scroll and a dark confidant out. Soon he chump blocks his bob killing one of my guys and plays Serra Avenger. Out of a hand, he proceeds to ping my guys. I take 3 flying a turn, while waiting for my vial to charge, but decide to drop a standstill so his hand will fill up. Sure enough, I pick the wrong card for 1 out of 2 cards, 1 out of 3 cards, and 1 out of 4 cards in his hand, and he is pretty mad (I would be too, but I'm a lucksack). Eventually I die to lack of outracing a 3/3 (couldn't get a lord into play since vial didn't ramp enough).
SB: -2 Sygg +2 pithing needle
G3M2:Starts out much better for me as I have a sick hand with vial, jitte, FoW, 2 lands and some folk. Looks like he got out another dark confidant and swung with it 2 times before I overwhelmed him with lorded folk and a wakethrasher.

2-0

G1M3:LED version ichorid. went first, got out a vial, he drops an LED and a land (no force in my hand). I ramp vial to 1, play a relic (and LOL at his face for that maindecked). Next turn he goes off with LED, putting 3 bridges in GY and 2 or 3 narcs into play. He therapys my hand, I Cursecatcher it, which RFGs his bridges before he gets guys. He sacs sacs 3 creatures to put a Simic Sky Swallower into play and we commence the race. I RFT his yard for good measure, but eventually get out a lord and mutavaults so I race him to 8, he can't kill me in 1 swing since I'm also at 8, so he waits and I eventually out-creature him. Who thought we could outrace a SSS?

SB: -2 Sygg, -2 Wakethrasher, -1 Reejery, +3 Echoing truth +2 Propaganda.

G2M3:Equally disgusting hand against him. First turn vial. I force his LED. 2nd turn cursecatcher, relic. He can't do much since I leave mana open for the relic, and eventually he scoops to the propaganda. Merfolk were made to beat GY based combo...

3-0

G1M4:Cephalid Breakfast variant. I play island turn 1, leave it up for stifle. He plays flooded strand, passes turn. Turn 2 I play top-decked vial + mutavault, stifle the fetch. Turn 3 i play standstill, proceed beatdown.

SB: -2 Sygg -1 daze, -1 reejery +2 Back to Basics +2 Pithing needle.

G2M4: Turn 1 relic, Turn 2 Silvergill, turn 3 Silvergill, turn 4 standstill. Game over.

4-0

Took 2 draws into top 8, against The Mighty Quinn (Woo!, I like seeing that deck place well) and an Aggro Loam.

Top 8:
Play against the Cephalid Breakfast again. Game one I get a cursecatcher out. Second turn I get a mutavault and a silvergill. I sac the cursecatcher to stop something I don't remember and play a silvergill. On his turn he therapys, at which point I have 3 force of will, 1 daze, and 1 sygg in my hand with 2 lands. I let it go since he already played a narcomoeba to sac it for anyway. He names FoW and is very happy. Next turn I swing for 4 with mutavault, and vial in a Sygg. Drawing another card. He plays a nomads en-kor with enough to get around the daze, and passes his turn. I pull a silvergill and vial it in, pulling a land, I swing for 5 and draw my last FoW. He worldly tutors for the cephalid, and get's a nasty surprise by my last FoW. I proceed to win.

SB same as before.

Game 2: I get an early relic out and we have a slow control game until eventually he gets out both creatures. He also apparently sideboarded in abeyance, which a cursecatcher and daze weren't enough to stop. Popping my relic in response since it was game over if I didn't hit anything I grab... well nothing. He proceeds to go off, running some strange variant of cephalid with Karmic Guide, Kiki-Jiki, and some Sky Hussar to make infinite tokens to swing for the win.

Well I never saw his win condition so SB: -1 Reejery -1 Thrasher +2 propaganda.

Game 3: Another good match, but I started out with a really good hand. Vial + standstill. I draw into a relic and wonder if I should have waited on the standstill, but swing away with an angry cursecatcher. Eventually he pops the standstill and drops a creature, which I sadly don't draw a FoW on. I play a relic on my turn, as well as a lord and a silvergill. I still don't draw into the force. He plays both of the creatures he needs, but doesn't get to combo off since I have a relic sitting there. After some neat combat tricks, he mills half of his deck, hoping for enough of the combo to keep alive. Goes down to the last turn, he brainstorms, fetches, brainstorms or something ridiculous like that and doesn't hit the abeyance, so merfolk proceed to bash face.

5-0-2 Into top 4.

Aggro Loam. Game one I open with a relic, which crushes him along with my other merfolk. Funny moment when he plays a terravore and we both laugh because of it's impending doom (nice player to play against)

SB -2 sygg +2 Back to basics, -1 daze, -1 reejery +2 pithing needle (for assault), -1 stifle, -1 wakethrasher +2 Sower of Temptation.

Game 2 I get a relic but keep a hand with just 1 mutavault and no vial. I struggle with 1 land for a while, eventually hit a vial, but can't stop 1 dark confidant with 2 CCrushers.

SB -2 stifle +2 echoing truth (probably a better idea from the beginning, especially against crushers)

Game 3 was a better one, I get some relics going, and then a vial. I charge with cursecatcher, and silvergill. Turn 3 I vial in a reejery, play a reejery, untap vial, play wakethrasher. Left with a vial and LoA in hand. I was dumb to do this, overextending since I could have won with less than this number out. He just so happens to have the burning wish, and do it for 3, leaving me with nothing but a vial and himself at 10 life, 1 land and 1 mox. I rip a wakethrasher (Thank God!!! since vial was at 3, leaving LoA behind) and bash for 2, then 2, then 2, then I draw a land and play the vial. BTW, everyone should make sure they know to tap vial regardless of playing things. First of all it draws out stifles sometimes, 2nd it charges wakethrasher. I win the game with him holding a pyroclasm (but not enough mana from cycling lands to grab it to be able to cast it).

Now I'm in top 2, and we agree that I will take the playset of Goyfs and he'll have the 2 trops + 2 savannahs.

So, overall this deck is ridiculously good against anything running islands, as well as combo decks. I was lucky enough to avoid the burn and goyf sligh since those are almost auto loss, and I would say aggro loam and rock are just very slightly favorable with relic of progenitus.

Relic is the VIP of this deck, and I was never unhappy to see it.

Just for whoever's interested, the top 8 were:
1&2 Merfolk & a different Aggro Loam
3&4 Aggro Loam and an odd Faerie fish deck with goyfs
5-8 Aggro Loam, white thresh, Mighty Quinn, Cephalid Breakfast

Sound like you did pretty well, thanks for the report and sharing deck list.

Where was the tournament?, when was it conducted?

I'm assuming as you said you just played in it so it was recent. it was a 40 some man tournament and you won two other tournaments at 25 - 35 man tourney's also with Merfolk deck recently. trying to matchup the data and find other lists from these events.


Think i found it.

Thank you very much for your report and congrats to your finish.

You insist on using Sygg, but I noticed that you sided him out every single match. How many cards does one realistically draw of him? Isn't there really not a single other card that would fit the MD better?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mugs

Sound like you did pretty well, thanks for the report and sharing deck list.

Where was the tournament?, when was it conducted?

I'm assuming as you said you just played in it so it was recent. it was a 40 some man tournament and you won two other tournaments at 25 - 35 man tourney's also with Merfolk deck recently. trying to matchup the data and find other lists from these events.


Think i found it.

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The other 2 smaller tournaments were just local tournaments and are not going to be online. The one I just won (drew into the win I guess) was from the Monster Den, and I have no idea if it will have my list or not, but I posted it so I don't understand what you're saying. It was today though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blitzbold

Thank you very much for your report and congrats to your finish.

You insist on using Sygg, but I noticed that you sided him out every single match. How many cards does one realistically draw of him? Isn't there really not a single other card that would fit the MD better?

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What I said was he's the weakest point, but I won't replace him with anything other than a merfolk (since we need to keep the merfolk count at least at 20). Just because you always sideboard a card doesn't mean it's bad either, it just means it's marginally okay against everything, and later you want your sideboard deck-hosing cards.

I also mentioned that I hate tidal warrior and don't think it is worth playing, but really, neither of them are. I just like how Sygg sometimes draws the extra cards. I have almost thought of using Sygg, River Guide and splashing white since it would help against sligh matchups, but mono-blue has served me very well so far.

Congrats Phoenix Ignition for the result, I'll test your list and see how it performs. Are you sure that daze in 3x is good? I found it to be incredible in a deck packing huge mana denial AND cursecather, so I'm not convinced about that quantity. Also, i noticed that several$ times you named wake thrasher as the card which managed to make great damages to oppo. DOn't you think that he could deserve a third slot , eventually cutting 1 sygg and place it as a 1-of?
You also say that burn and goyf slighs are almost auto-losses. Well, goyf sligh is surely bad, but burn isn't that difficult, to me. Why don't run Divert in sideboard then, to try arginating those matchups (along with theRock and Boros, which aren't that favorable)? I don't see Sower of Temptations as that useful, if you'd like to deal with big creatures (aggro loam's ones) you already have relic and echoing truths in side, sower is't that needed. Well, at least i think so, you're free to say no, but try divert, really, it could be useful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

Congrats Phoenix Ignition for the result, I'll test your list and see how it performs. Are you sure that daze in 3x is good? I found it to be incredible in a deck packing huge mana denial AND cursecather, so I'm not convinced about that quantity. Also, i noticed that several$ times you named wake thrasher as the card which managed to make great damages to oppo. DOn't you think that he could deserve a third slot , eventually cutting 1 sygg and place it as a 1-of?
You also say that burn and goyf slighs are almost auto-losses. Well, goyf sligh is surely bad, but burn isn't that difficult, to me. Why don't run Divert in sideboard then, to try arginating those matchups (along with theRock and Boros, which aren't that favorable)? I don't see Sower of Temptations as that useful, if you'd like to deal with big creatures (aggro loam's ones) you already have relic and echoing truths in side, sower is't that needed. Well, at least i think so, you're free to say no, but try divert, really, it could be useful.

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I'm sure that I like 3xDaze but I feel like that is more of a personal choice. I figure running 3 relics is enough cantripping to make up for the lack of 1 daze and 1 land (although I think 19 is pretty good since I only mulliganed once or twice, and landscrew only happened when I consciously decided that keeping a colorless land + vial/relic was worth it). I don't think it's in our best interest to run 4 though, since we really can't waste draws on dazes late game. The saying "if people play around the daze, it has done its job" is only valid if stalling them is going to put us in a better position, but a lot of times when I'm running out of steam hoping for a top deck I wish for anything other than a daze/vial, but hit them. Cutting 1 hasn't really affected me yet.

As for removing a Sygg for a thrasher, maybe moving up to 3 would be good, but I'll have to test it. It just seems like in too many cases people can fire/ice or mogg fanatic him, but I know you know the reasons, so I guess I'll playtest him more.

Divert looks good, I actually only traded for them yesterday and didn't have them before. I probably will put them in, but it only stops 1 spell against goyf sligh, and I've already playtested throwing in a bunch of hydroblast effects which didn't at all swing the outcome of the game, especially since they sideboard in just as many pyroblast effects. The only luck I've had is with Counterbalance/Top, which takes up at least 6 sideboard slots. I'm also thinking of throwing 2 Sensei's Divining tops in the main deck, even though we have no shuffle effects, to both take out sygg and accommodate an easier sideboard for sligh, but without the shuffle it isn't going to be worth it.

If you want a 1-1 Merfolk swap for Sygg, add the 4th Mutavault. It's way better than Sygg. On that note, why do you have 3 Mutas and 4 Wasteland? Mutavault wins games, Wasteland doesn't. Muta + Standstill can spell game over, Wasteland + Standstill can't.

I think Sygg sucks, too, as it does nothing by itself, it needs other dudes in play to be good. It's also a horrible topdeck like Daze. I'd go as far as to say Tidal Warrior is better than Sygg.

"Wake Thrasher can be burned/StP'd" isn't a strong enough argument not to optimize Wake Thrasher. When removed, it's always going to be just 1-for-1. If you're worried about Mogg Fanatic, that's why you have 7-8 Lords to prevent Mogg Fanatic from pinging Wake Thrasher.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shawon

If you want a 1-1 Merfolk swap for Sygg, add the 4th Mutavault. It's way better than Sygg. On that note, why do you have 3 Mutas and 4 Wasteland? Mutavault wins games, Wasteland doesn't. Muta + Standstill can spell game over, Wasteland + Standstill can't.

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On the contrary, wasteland wins me many games. I would say 15% of the games I win are due to the mana denial strategy that merfolk can take, stifling and wastelanding to keep enough tempo to win. While wastelands don't end the game, their mana denial has. Mutavaults are no good if the opponent has plenty of life and a creature out. If a muta gets chump blocked you lose both a creature and a land, so tempo goes very much in favor of the opponent. Under standstill, you can win with a mutavault, yes, but that's only if the opponent has a 1/1 or no creatures. These cases are where I drop a standstill anyway, since you can take 1 or 0 damage a turn and wait to top deck into 1 of 3 mutavaults. I use this play all of the time, and it always ends in the opponent cracking the standstill.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shawon

I think Sygg sucks, too, as it does nothing by itself, it needs other dudes in play to be good. It's also a horrible topdeck like Daze. I'd go as far as to say Tidal Warrior is better than Sygg.

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While I agree he is not the most optimal card for this spot, swinging with a cursecatcher and a mutavault to draw an extra card is huge. I have done this many times as well, and as I would run 6 Silvergill Adepts if I could, this guy is the closest thing to extra card advantage I could find.

I have however now replaced him with Whirlpool Rider, and I think WR is probably one of the best choices out there. I never play all my islands or vials if I already have plenty out, both to fool the opponent into thinking I have a force, and because the vials could all get EE'd or deeded. Now, later on in the game when I have all of these saved up, I drop in a whirlpool rider and draw into good cards. Also, it's amazing after they crack your standstill and you're looking for a Force, to vial him in and draw however many cards that was.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shawon

"Wake Thrasher can be burned/StP'd" isn't a strong enough argument not to optimize Wake Thrasher. When removed, it's always going to be just 1-for-1. If you're worried about Mogg Fanatic, that's why you have 7-8 Lords to prevent Mogg Fanatic from pinging Wake Thrasher.

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A 1 mana Mogg Fanatic for a 3 mana Wake Thrasher is not acceptable. Sure, you can say 1 for 1, but you can say that about thoughtseize as well, and we all know thoughtseize is a bomb. Test the deck out vs. goyf sligh a few times and you'll find that 8 lords aren't enough to turn a wakethrasher into a 2/2. I've never had a lord stick for more than a turn. This is another case where mutavault sucks, as losing tempo to any burn deck is usually going to end in a loss.

This deck is that good and I am glad that people are starting to see it. While I have not played against templar goblins I am convinced it is better than old goblins!

I feel that Wakethrasher is excellent but I can't decide if you need 4 or not. I played against a list which was very much analogous to old goblins with 4 port and 4 wasteland and in that list Wakethrasher was insane.

Have you never had problems with Standstill taking tempo out of the game, hurting your tempo cards (Stifle, Daze, Cursecatcher, Vial) and overall mana denial strategy ? Playing against that deck and against Dreadstill, I've noticed that waiting a few turns and then cracking Standstill DOES give you cards, but the overall advantage isn't much because some of them will most likely be useless or not very good. I'm not sure +2 CA for two mana, as nice as that is, is worth letting your opponent catch up on tempo. And the deck IS based on tempo very much, you won't win a game where you trade your cards 1-for-1 against your opponents' cards over a longer time, because all of your threats except Thrasher look stupid on their own.

Also, Whirlpool Rider looks at least interesting, like a worse Adept (and that sounds like a good thing).

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

Have you never had problems with Standstill taking tempo out of the game, hurting your tempo cards (Stifle, Daze, Cursecatcher, Vial) and overall mana denial strategy ? Playing against that deck and against Dreadstill, I've noticed that waiting a few turns and then cracking Standstill DOES give you cards, but the overall advantage isn't much because some of them will most likely be useless or not very good. I'm not sure +2 CA for two mana, as nice as that is, is worth letting your opponent catch up on tempo. And the deck IS based on tempo very much, you won't win a game where you trade your cards 1-for-1 against your opponents' cards over a longer time, because all of your threats except Thrasher look stupid on their own.

Also, Whirlpool Rider looks at least interesting, like a worse Adept (and that sounds like a good thing).

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I have never had problems with standstill taking away tempo from me, since you really get to choose when you play it. The thing is, usually you drop a vial or your threats before the standstill, and by the time you get the standstill down, all you have in your hand is counterspells or stifles. By that time you already ran out of tempo and are just surfing on the wave of your creatures in play. If I am using the mana-denial strategy, I will only play the standstill after I have at least 2 threats on board. In this case, it's almost always a good idea, because even with mana denial, all the opponent needs is 1 land to swords to plowshares your guys, and stall until they drop a threat.

I've never had a problem with standstills, except for sometimes, as you said, it doesn't draw what you want. Usually the turns of stalling that it provides where the opponent does nothing are enough to draw into things you want, as well as do enough damage to bring them very close to death.

Whirlpool riders are winning me games that I otherwise wouldn't. The accumulation of islands and vials in my hand is now just fuel for when I do hit one. I'm almost thinking of taking out 1 of something else to have 3 of them in the deck. It also lets you free mulligan into sideboard cards if that is the case.