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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Let's put it this way: the seller is in the exact same city that the uncut sheet was sold to. It might not be the same, true, but the coincidence would like to say hello.
This is from what I've heard, btw. I can't be 100% sure all of this is entirely accurate.
-Matt
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphacat
Those don't look like they were cut from a sheet though. So either they're real, or this guy is really professional.
Cutting paper is something any print shop worth the price of rent on their building can do.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Heck, with the right tools, anyone can cut paper to look perfect.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphacat
Those don't look like they were cut from a sheet though. So either they're real, or this guy is really professional.
Getting rid of the curl is actually easier than most people think.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
The REB and vertical miscut mountain that he sold recently look contiguous.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
So, how exactly would you ever know if a miscut is real vs from an uncut sheet?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphacat
So, how exactly would you ever know if a miscut is real vs from an uncut sheet?
Practically speaking, is there any difference?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Even if he is cutting them himself, is there anything wrong with that? They are real cards, made by WotC. As long as the dimensions are right and the corners don't distinguish them from other cards, I say more power to him.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
majikal
Even if he is cutting them himself, is there anything wrong with that? They are real cards, made by WotC. As long as the dimensions are right and the corners don't distinguish them from other cards, I say more power to him.
Well, the point in collecting miscuts is that they are rare industrial mistakes. A stamps collector, for example, might be interested in those (normally very rare) stamps with slightly different ink tones or industrial mistakes regarding misperforated/miscutted stamp sheets, or with wrong face values. I am sure that no stamps collector would be ok in buying common stamps manually modified to look like ''mistakes'', and any grading society could spot those easily.
I think that any grading society could possibly spot the fake Mtg dual miscut by comparison against a true dual miscut. Industrial cutting machines leave ''trace'' of their cutting system, and I think that nobody has access to the same cutting machines used by Carta Mundi ( I may be wrong). Obviously this is (*might be*) possible only through very close inspection.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kiblast
Well, the point in collecting miscuts is that they are rare industrial mistakes. A stamps collector, for example, might be interested in those (normally very rare) stamps with slightly different ink tones or industrial mistakes regarding misperforated/miscutted stamp sheets, or with wrong face values. I am sure that no stamps collector would be ok in buying common stamps manually modified to look like ''mistakes'', and any grading society could spot those easily.
I think that any grading society could possibly spot the fake Mtg dual miscut by comparison against a true dual miscut. Industrial cutting machines leave ''trace'' of their cutting system, and I think that nobody has access to the same cutting machines used by Carta Mundi ( I may be wrong). Obviously this is (*might be*) possible only through very close inspection.
For all practical purposes there is no difference. If the only person who can tell the difference between a miscut and a cut sheet is a professional grader with a 100x magnification then there is no difference.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I have two things;
In regard to rare collectible (defect) items: generally there is a sampling of items that can be compared to one another (i.e. there are 15 known orange hued Lincoln stamps out of an unknown total circulated number). One offs are typically unheard of though I suppose things like crimps might fall into a subcategory (all are unique to some degree but there are an undetermined number of in existence). So even if only one sheet was sideways during cutting, there would still be a set of miscuts which could be compared to one another. I don't know what I'm really getting at here but even the rarest of collectibles (Honus Wagner baseball card) has several known copies.
As for determining if a miscut is a genuine factory defect, much like CSI matches the grooves in a bullet to the barrel of a gun, you could very easily distinguish an exacto cut from a die cut. Stamping die jigs look like big flat boards with a layer of rubber on them holding a ribbon blade that is in the shape of the die. Cards I believe are done differently. The way I've seen it done is the cards are cut down to the general dimensions and then pressed through a shaped cutter which shaves off the corners. You just load the pre-cut cards into a channel and out the other side comes the finished product. I'm sure they leave behind marks that could be compared to the suspect forgery.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dontbiteitholmes
For all practical purposes there is no difference. If the only person who can tell the difference between a miscut and a cut sheet is a professional grader with a 100x magnification then there is no difference.
When you are dropping 800$ on 5 gr. of cardboard you may want to know if it's legit or not, just saying. Surely there is no ''real'' difference for everyone else, but maybe the owner just wants to be sure.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kiblast
When you are dropping 800$ on 5 gr. of cardboard you may want to know if it's legit or not, just saying. Surely there is no ''real'' difference for everyone else, but maybe the owner just wants to be sure.
The problem here is, no one here can say for sure if those are real or not. They look real, they seem real, the only reason why anyone would say they're not real is because someone bought an uncut sheet some time in the past in that town. Even Sdematt said he's not sure. All we have here is hearsay and no real evidence of foul play.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Furthermore, someone who does have the proper knowledge can't share it since it's a trade secret with regards to WotC's production line. Not that they would even be on this site/thread.
The amount to be gained from creating "good enough" forgeries is enough incentive for such things to exist. They are only created because there is a ludicrous market for miscuts cards.
Don't support the market on miscuts, crimps, and "good enough fakes".
$800 for a piece of cardboard almost put the card valued at more than 3 times higher than gold. (~$50 per gram)
Keep that in mind.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Personally, like Ben was saying over on Librarities, it's funny that all his miscuts are playable cards. Usually, you'd test the waters of Ebay with chaff to get people sending in questions about what else you have coming, or use the chaff as advertising for upcoming auctions. He just flat out put up playable cards.
Again, the location seems a little too sketchy.
Remember, Dark Beta is a professionally manufactured fake. If someone can do that and fool most people, it's not hard to get a sheet cut professionally.
Also, there's a difference between a factory mistake and possibly this guy cutting the sheet. One was a mistake, one is intentional to deceive and to profit. It would be like buying a Beta sheet and miscutting it. Sure, it's the only miscut Beta sheet of cards known to still exist*, but that doesn't make it *real*, so to speak.
* Note: As far as the collector's community has been talking, there are no Beta/Alpha cards showing two cards. Either it never happened, the sheets were destroyed, or someone has them all, as none have been seen by anyone on Librarities. My point here is that if I made some miscut cards, that wouldn't make them true miscuts.
-Matt
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
* Note: As far as the collector's community has been talking, there are no Beta/Alpha cards showing two cards.
There are Alphas, but no Betas that I have seen. Beta BACK miscuts, yes, but not front ones that I know of.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I stand corrected. But, how much of the other card is shown in Alpha?
-Matt
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
A couple trends I have noticed in card prices, at least on SCGs:
- The price of Unlimited duals relative to revised duals has gone up substantially There used to be a about a 10 dollar difference. A Revised Underground is 130 and an Unlimited one is 180. Just back at SCG Kansas City I picked up a couple of HP (though quite nice looking in sleeve) Unlimited Undergrounds for about $75 apiece from SCG.
- Also I have noticed the price of Alpha and Beta cards in general starting to separate, with Alpha starting to cost more. For a long time A/B cards were matched pretty equally in price. And back in the day, Alpha was always less expensive than Beta because there was residual stigma from when Alpha was not tournament legal.
- Also Jace is back up to $80 on SCG. I won an Ebay auction for one a few days ago for $55 with free shipping however.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
That's because SCG knows there's demand and doesn't want to lose out.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with the A/B thing. That's been like that on Mint stuff for a while. There's a few Alpha collectors that REALLY go after Mint Alpha like mad. For me, there's no point bidding on it since a) I'm not fond of Alpha, but I'll take it if it's the right price, b) the prices of Mint Alpha can be insane, as in, 2-4x regular prices, just because they're trying to do Mint Alpha sets. Meh, doesn't bug me.
I have noticed the Unlimited Duals difference, but to me, it's slightly stupid. Yes, I understand they look nicer, and it's hard to find NM UNL duals since they were beat to shit and played with, but 180 for a whiteborder Sea? Please.
-Matt
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
So what is OK? $800 for a beta, $400 for a clean FBB?
