Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Besides being turn 0 answers, they are also answers that don't slow your clock that bad.
Chalice on turn 2 means no Warren Instigator, and since piledrivers are no longer 4-ofs, turn 4 kills will often come from the Instigator.
I'd go for Mindbreak Trap #4 perhaps....
But also consider running Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy if you're splashing black. Taking out a key combo spell can slow the game perhaps just as well. They'd have to search for a replacement copy instead of an answer to your answer.
On a side note. Since big creatures appear to be problematic; Sparksmith?
Perhaps 2 or 3 alongside a set of gempalm incinerators, MWM, a Sharpshooter and perhaps 2 Basilisk Collar, probably warchiefs over chieftains in this configuration?
They can even help to deal with Goyfs, Knights, Scavenging Ooze, Batterskull (to some extend)
They aren't particularly good against combo or burn ofcourse, but I guess that's where the anti-combo sideboard plan comes from?
Just a thought...
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Humphrey
this question was not a troll.
if u decide to run 4+ hate, then why not improve the leylines?
I'd really like someone to test that for me...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nameless Two
Besides being turn 0 answers, they are also answers that don't slow your clock that bad.
Chalice on turn 2 means no Warren Instigator, and since piledrivers are no longer 4-ofs, turn 4 kills will often come from the Instigator.
CotV is to play on your 1st turn for 0. For 1 when against High tide only. And against Tide you can easily play Instigator on 2, then Chalice on 3, since T3 kill from them happens not very often.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Here is the list I am playing with for the last week with just 20 lands. It isn't altogether unworkable, but at this point, I can't really say it is the best way to go as you can be short of lands at times. I think it warrants more testing.
Pyrokinesis is a card that I think is quite worthy of maindeck. It gives great tempo and much needed removal at the same time. Sharpshooter is another card that I think should be somewhere in your 75, unless it eats removal, it wins games by itself.
Critique and suggestions please. :smile::smile::smile:
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Put me in the camp of 20 lands is not enough, back in the day with 4x warchief most of us were running 21-23 land and now with chieftain and stuff like Tuktuk maindeck we are going to 20? Warchief isnt there to lower the curve anymore and I just don't feel like its going to work out overall even though it did for the guy at SCG.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
On the issue of 20 lands, sure chieftain builds mean we're not running warchiefs like we used to, but then we are running warren instigator and have more lackey effects to help drop out higher casting cost goblins. Also by dropping ports i don't need extra mana to run them in addition to casting goblins.
dropping from 22 to 20 lands has allowed me to fit in those extra couple of goblins and put on more pressure.
i guess it needs extensive playtesting.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
People have been trying to tune Goblins to be able to beat the combo matchup for a about six years now, and they have never succeeded. The best thing you can do is have 4 Wasteland, 4 Rishadan Port, and 4 of those Piledrivers everyone seems to be cutting.
Your time is going to be a lot better spent by figuring out how to beat RUG, UW, and Maverick consistently than it will be trying to figure out a 50/50 sideboard for a matchup that already has a 20/80 game 1.
To put it another way, there are 8 decks in the DTB section. Of those, three of them are combo: Sneak Attack, Reanimator, and Burn. Concentrate on crushing the other 5, then turn to these and ask yourself what you can do with the space you have remaining. My guess is you'll have to choose two, and just dodge the other one.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nameless Two
But also consider running Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy if you're splashing black. Taking out a key combo spell can slow the game perhaps just as well. They'd have to search for a replacement copy instead of an answer to your answer.
I think NamelessTwo is right here. On my last event I've wittnessed a Goblin Player wrecking Storm combo with two Therapies (although I'd say the game was already over after he flashbacked the first one). I know this case was special but he hit 8 cards with 4 (if you count the flashback) Cabal Therapies. This card is a bitch. I'm playing storm combo for a while now and Therapy has replaced the conventional discard-spells because it's just soooo much better. In Storm Combo you have Gitaxian Probes to target your Therapies right - in Goblins we can profit from the huge amount of creatures enabling flashbacks.
My message is: Run Therapies!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nameless Two
On a side note. Since big creatures appear to be problematic; Sparksmith?
Perhaps 2 or 3 alongside a set of gempalm incinerators, MWM, a Sharpshooter and perhaps 2 Basilisk Collar, probably warchiefs over chieftains in this configuration?
They can even help to deal with Goyfs, Knights, Scavenging Ooze, Batterskull (to some extend)
I have been toying around with Sharpshooter, Sparksmith and Basilisk Collar and it is not much mor than a cute trick. You need a combination of several cards to get going. After all they don't do much more than a well placed Anarchy or Perish. While Sharphooter has potential to win you games single-handedly against (a situation that I have never had in ~5 years of playing the deck) Basilisk Collar and Sparksmith are not the best way to deal with huge creatures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
eople have been trying to tune Goblins to be able to beat the combo matchup for a about six years now, and they have never succeeded. The best thing you can do is have 4 Wasteland, 4 Rishadan Port, and 4 of those Piledrivers everyone seems to be cutting.
Your time is going to be a lot better spent by figuring out how to beat RUG, UW, and Maverick consistently than it will be trying to figure out a 50/50 sideboard for a matchup that already has a 20/80 game 1.
I want to add something to what Malakai said.
First: He is right, we can't go much further than a 50% post-board combo MU. Last year when I practiced the storm-combo MU with this SB
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Earwig Squad
4 X
I had a result of ~60% postboard (taken together ANT and TES).
However, the games I won were those where I had very fast opening-turns. So I'd say that if you want to beat storm combo you should go through the following steps:
(1) Count your MD-cards that do NOT improve an aggressive strategy and may hinder your turn-4 -kills (thats the slowest we should be aiming at).
(2) Do not place more anti-combo-cards in your SB than you have cards to board out.
I would say that in conventional builds it comes down to this:
OUT: 4 Vial, 3-4 removalspells
IN: 7-8 anti-combo-cards that have manacosts of 0 or 1.
Beat them by speed. Speed is your most valuable weapon (I'm looking at you, Piledriver).
Second: I dont agree with Malakai on the second paragraph.
You should indeed keep other DTBs in mind when building your SB, but I feel very unconfortable whenever I have more than 4 cards to bring in post-board, because this means that we have to side out 4 cool cards from our MD. And as jrw1985 said: our deck is good enough to beat most aggro- and midrange strategies with it's maindeck.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
I can easily board out 4 vials, 3 gempalms, 2 stingscourgers, and 2 tuk tuks against storm combo, and board in 4 mindbreak traps, 4 leylines and 3 chalice of voids, with 20lands ( 16 mountains, 4 wastelands ) that still leaves me with
4 lackeys
3 tarfires ( storm combo doesn't like burn either )
1 mogg fanatic
2 warren instigators
2 piledrivers
3 MWM
4 matrons
4 chieftains
4 ringleaders
2 SGC
To finish them off as quickly as i can.
( For those doing the maths, sharpshooter and 3 pyrokenesis make up the remaining 4 slots in the SB after 11 storm combo hate )
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ScatmanX
Don't run those awful W Leylines... please...
It is never going to win you any game, except maybe from burn, but even then, CotV is better.
I did get 1 win off of them against Spanish Inquizition, and they're practically GG against Burn, but, yeah, they are kinda awful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Humphrey
this question was not a troll.
if u decide to run 4+ hate, then why not improve the leylines?
About B-splash, Virtue´s Ruin is also nice.
No, I don't think playing Serum Powder is the way to go. Ever.
Also, Perish is now strictly better than nature's Ruin, since Perish says they can't be regenerated (Thrun) while Nature's Ruin doesn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Malakai
People have been trying to tune Goblins to be able to beat the combo matchup for a about six years now, and they have never succeeded. The best thing you can do is have 4 Wasteland, 4 Rishadan Port, and 4 of those Piledrivers everyone seems to be cutting.
Your time is going to be a lot better spent by figuring out how to beat RUG, UW, and Maverick consistently than it will be trying to figure out a 50/50 sideboard for a matchup that already has a 20/80 game 1.
To put it another way, there are 8 decks in the DTB section. Of those, three of them are combo: Sneak Attack, Reanimator, and Burn. Concentrate on crushing the other 5, then turn to these and ask yourself what you can do with the space you have remaining. My guess is you'll have to choose two, and just dodge the other one.
1. I want to be the one to figure it out. 4 Waste/Port/Piledriver just doesn't do it against any Combo except High Tide.
2. I believe the MD is already well tuned to be favored against most other creature-based deck in the format (most, not all... I think Nic Fit is a problem since removal+discard+Deed+Thrun is pretty relevant against gobbos). So now I want to figure out how to make it so favored against combo that G2 and 3 are locked up.
3. High Tide ought to be in DTB. It has been a beast recently. Burn, Sneak Attack, and Reanimator have all but disappeared as of late. Storm Combo is still what worries me the most right now.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
I think Serum Powder is good, if you already have 8 Leylines. But I dont think Leylines are good, though.
Virtues Ruin is not Natures Ruin mate
http://static.starcitygames.com/sale...rtues_ruin.jpg
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Humphrey
Fair enough
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
so in tonight's tourney I beat storm combo! auto loss first game then sideboarded 4 mindbreak traps, 4 leyline of voids and 4 chalice of void and took the next 2 games.
main deck was fine against rest of field and only needed my SB 3x pyrokenesis against them.
Way to go is anti combo sideboard and toolbox goblins maindeck, either mono red or black splash for weirdings and perish.
20 lands also worked fine.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
orcanmail
so in tonight's tourney I beat storm combo! auto loss first game then sideboarded 4 mindbreak traps, 4 leyline of voids and 4 chalice of void and took the next 2 games.
main deck was fine against rest of field and only needed my SB 3x pyrokenesis against them.
Way to go is anti combo sideboard and toolbox goblins maindeck, either mono red or black splash for weirdings and perish.
20 lands also worked fine.
Fucking awesome!
Do you remember how the games went?
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
On my report last page I beat Hive Mind to. Not impossible.
And Surgical Extraction is way better against them then Leyline. Imo their better against other combos too...
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
In game one he went off round 2, 1-0 down. Sided in 4xCOV, LOV, Mindbreak Trap, Out 4xVial, 2xSting, 2x tuk Tuk Scrapper, 3 x Gempalm, 1 x Fanatic
Game 2 Laid COV for 0 and had lackey into SGC turn 1, turn 2 piledriver and then all over him. I had a good draw.
Game 3 i mulliganed down to 6, dropped Leyline of Void.. When he passed I dropped Chalice of Void for 0. I passed, he passed and i tarfired him at end of his go. Turn 2 I dropped MWM, He passed. turn 3 I dropped chieftain and swung for 4 with 2 token. He played on his turn double dark ritual and tried to bounce my chalice with some blue spell which i mindbreak trapped. He then passed. I wastelanded one of his lands and played warren instigator and was now swinging for 10. If i remember he had taken now 14 from creatures, 2 from tarfire and 2 from his own fetchlands leaving him on 2. He drew a card and scooped.
afterwards he was depressed to losing to goblins but he had never experienced such hate before. I'm not sure if Leyline of Void helped or not, but Chalice and Mindbreak Trap definately gave me the edge.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Thats a pretty combo hate fulled hand game 3!
Why didn't you hit with Chieftain T3 also? It has haste to...
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ScatmanX
Thats a pretty combo hate fulled hand game 3!
Why didn't you hit with Chieftain T3 also? It has haste to...
You are right of course. Tired, in a rush and writing it up from memory. Maybe I should start taking notes.
I did attack with my chieftain T3, so he must have only cracked one fetchland so was on 1 life when he scooped.
T1 2 damage tarfire + 1 damage fetchland
T3 4 damage MWM + 2 damage chieftain
T4 4 damage MWM +2 damage chieftain + 4 damage Warren Instigator
Total 19 damage when he scooped at the start of his turn 5
Yes I did have a lot of hate, but that is the point. Without alot of hate from SB you have no chance. I accept I was fortunate with my cards, but it is why I mulliganed as you can't win without hate in your starting hand against storm combo.
The point is that we can win against storm combo, but only with hate, mulligans, and some good fortune AND if we can beat storm we can top 8 again I'm sure in tourneys.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
@orcanmail
I like that you ran
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mindbreak Trap
Leyline doesn't stop Combo, but it makes it lose some explosivity, and it must be dealt with if they're going for a line of play that requires recursion.
Chalice @ 0 stops explosive combo, but also can be played @ 1 against a wide array of slower combo (Elves, Tide, Burn).
Mindbreak Trap of course stops Storm cold.
I think that maybe, MAYBE, a Leyline of Sanctity should be in the side too, just to add a little more T0 protection. What's the difference between 3 or 2 non-combo SB slots anyway?
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Can I just say I am super-pleased with how Goblin Friendly this Legacy format has gotten?
Goyf = gone
Nacatl = gone
I'll take Ooze over Goyf and Delver over Nactal any day of the week. Those guys were the 2 reasons to not run Tarfire, and they've been replaced by x/2 delvers, oozes, and SFMs. Combo is the only bad MU left, and it's generally confined to Storm combo, making it easier to hate out (versus trying to answer Storm AND 2-card Combo).
