[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

Question from RUGs perspective:
I never played against a decent NIC Fit player in a tournament, but from my online testing I did no find the matchup not as much in Nic Fits favour as it sounds in this thread (played only a couple of games but won them - getting favourable draws obviously). Of course I run the Stifle Version and if I don't have a Stifle I force Veteran Explorer & GSZ for "x=1" 100% of the time... but then I feel that RUG can draw enough gas to bring Nic Fit into burn range.

How do you see it and do you refer against RUG players without stifle? How big is the difference?

From my perspective the matchup against my RUG list with stifle is 60/40 in Nic Fits favour. If you have 4 Decay though that percentage could go down to 70/30, since mongoose alone won't make it.

But there is no matchups in legacy that I would call 90/10. Even Zoo against Merfolk was like 70/30. Only matchups come to mind which could be 90/10 is burn vs. soul silsters. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by catmint

Question from RUGs perspective:
I never played against a decent NIC Fit player in a tournament, but from my online testing I did no find the matchup not as much in Nic Fits favour as it sounds in this thread (played only a couple of games but won them - getting favourable draws obviously). Of course I run the Stifle Version and if I don't have a Stifle I force Veteran Explorer & GSZ for "x=1" 100% of the time... but then I feel that RUG can draw enough gas to bring Nic Fit into burn range.

How do you see it and do you refer against RUG players without stifle? How big is the difference?

From my perspective the matchup against my RUG list with stifle is 60/40 in Nic Fits favour. If you have 4 Decay though that percentage could go down to 70/30, since mongoose alone won't make it.

But there is no matchups in legacy that I would call 90/10. Even Zoo against Merfolk was like 70/30. Only matchups come to mind which could be 90/10 is burn vs. soul silsters. :laugh:

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Its really hard to lose to RUG if they get anything but the nuts. When they get land,delver,delver,cantrip,catrip,counter,counter its pretty hard to win. However, I would say for at least some versions (the red ones) of Nic fit, its probably pretty close to 90/10.

Nic fit unfortunately draws a lot of bad players to the deck cause you can cast cute cards like spiritmonger in legacy with it. So you probably played against a lot of those people.

That said, stifle does improve the match for RUG. 60/40 sounds about right, but again for some variations of the deck it could be better or worse.

Also, no one in this thread has even suggested running 4 decay so I have no idea where that is coming from.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Its really hard to lose to RUG if they get anything but the nuts. When they get land,delver,delver,cantrip,catrip,counter,counter its pretty hard to win. However, I would say for at least some versions (the red ones) of Nic fit, its probably pretty close to 90/10.

Nic fit unfortunately draws a lot of bad players to the deck cause you can cast cute cards like spiritmonger in legacy with it. So you probably played against a lot of those people.

That said, stifle does improve the match for RUG. 60/40 sounds about right, but again for some variations of the deck it could be better or worse.

Also, no one in this thread has even suggested running 4 decay so I have no idea where that is coming from.

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Pretty much this. The single biggest problem that Nic Fit has as a deck is that it's really hard to pilot correctly, and it attracts a ton of really, really, mind-numbingly bad players. Probably 75% of the Nic Fit players out there are random durdles that pick it up because they can play with some of their standard cards, or throw whatever EDH crap into the deck they want to. Most of the people in this thread that have been piloting it for a while now have reported favorable results, and I have every confidence that those in the thread who have just recently picked it up and have floundered with it a bit will eventually post results as well once they get more used to it. Whenever I see another Nic Fit player when I'm on the road, I make sure to stop and ask if they're on the Source. I think I've had literally one person in ten tell me that they are. It's really depressing.

Keep in mind that Nic Fit has a bajillion different versions, Catmint. Some are better than others vs various decks. I can count the number of games I've lost to RUG with my Rector build on one hand. Carpet of Flowers provides a serious backup mana ramp engine.

Think of this way: everything that RUG tries to do is based around the theory of tempo and the philosophy of resource denial. Everything that Nic Fit tries to do is based around the theory of ramping and the philosophy of outclassing your opponent. Our removal is better, our threats are bigger, our recursion is unmatched, AND we get there faster than anyone else. RUG and Nic Fit are diametrically opposed in every way imaginable. Sure, RUG can godhand us with Architect's example or like Devler that nat flips, land, stifle, stifle, force, cantrip, daze. But we can do it, too, with like Explorer, Explorer, Therapy, Tower, land, Deed, GSZ.

RUG with stifle is definitely better vs us than RUG without stifle. Therapy usually calls Stifle in the matchup, though, just in case....whether the RUG deck has it or not. Forcing an Explorer is fine, because then you're down two cards, and RUG doesn't have card advantage at all. It has card quality, perhaps, but it has no inherent advantage. Again, it's all built around tempo. Nic Fit is loaded with value. Most of our cards generate card advantage of some sort, whether literal or virtual. Every one of our spells that resolves put RUG further and further on its back foot. If you Force things, that just makes it worse honestly. Does that make sense, Catmint?

Just wondering if the folks arguing with Qweerios for strix have actually tested it, in BUG fit, and what the results were?

Bear in mind the oracles are in the deck for their ramp, cantrip, and therapy bodies. You can't always count on explorers to get you to 6 or 7 mana quickly.

Yes, with 0 library manipulation, it will only ramp around 1/3 of the time, but the deck has 4 brainstorm and 2 tops. If you know you have a land behind your oracle when you cast it, it effectively costs 1.

Thanks, makes sense. Splashing red surely improves the RUG MU.

Concerning your evaluation of Vraska:

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

As for the new GB PW, unless your fine with her being a 5 mana pulse, she doesnt change the board state, or even do anything really if you just +1 her. For her to be any good, you have to have card AND board advantage, before you cast her, and while you charge her up. I say that, because if you want to use her -7, you have to have to make sure you opponent doesnt have enough blockers/removal.

With PW like elspeth, and garruk, lilliana they have an immediate impact on the board/hand that is INCREASING their loyalty so they can impact the board even more. Where as Vraska doesnt do anything till you charge her up a bit, or she can be a 5cc pulse.

She might have a place in a really control heavy BUG variant, that gets free card advantage, but needs a solid wincon. But then again, why not just place more JTMS?

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That she does not have an impact on board/hand while ticking up is true. But lilianas effect is symmetric and the decks I played liliana my opponent was often hellbent. Still i love to tick her up to stack edict effects. The +1 of Vraska does nothing except someone has a problem with you stacking up a ton pulses. And what is wrong stacking up pulses or using it as a win-condition? Assuming equal board & equal hand, you are both drawing cards and trading spells while you tick up. Also if you mention jace as major problem and pulse as the answer. What jace does well is either check if you draw a pulse of brainstorm for an answer you pulse. With her ALREADY in play, Jace wont do a lot.

Concerning the play more jace argument. If i play a deck that relies on jace to win, I would MUCH rather brainstorm into oblivion, beeing in full control and at one point cast vraska to actually end the game instead of ticking up to 12 with Jace.

Evaluating Vraska we could try to assign how much of a cards are her abilities worth.
For example:

Since 3 cuonters are 1 "bad pulse", you could see her as 1.66 pulses which goes in line with the CMC 3 vs. 5. Her +1 simply draws you 1/3 of a card, while having the bonus of being a "murder" for everything attacking her. you can argue that Jace or Espeth +1 ability is worth "a card" on its own, however these cards are not played in legacy. Jace of course has infinate brainstorms which is not only worth a card, but worth the best card in legacy, so nothing beats him - we know.

Anyway I feel she is most of the time at least a solid 2:1 with the potential of much more (if you have time). This does not sound too exciting, but in the context of her +1 protection, "stored" versatitly to kill whatever comes along while providing a decent win condition I like her.

So I agree with you: probably less attractive if you have decent creatures to win with like Nic Fit does, but if you rely on a planeswalker win I like her.


Edit:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Forcing an Explorer is fine, because then you're down two cards, and RUG doesn't have card advantage at all....Every one of our spells that resolves put RUG further and further on its back foot. If you Force things, that just makes it worse honestly. Does that make sense, Catmint?

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Thanks, makes absolute sense.
Just 1 point: RUGs card davntage is built in curving out at 2 and drawing less lands (or shuffling them back). As you said it wins with tempo and therefor it is correct to Force explorer. If you then have look around with SD.top for you lands, while trying to remove RUG's threat -> this is wher pierce/daze can work. So altough it might be fine with you sometimes if Explorer is forced, Explorer giving you 2 lands is surely worse. :)

@Catmint,

I think that the advent of Thragtusk has drasticaly turned the RUG and UR Delver MUs in Nic Fit's favor. Before M13, gaining life and landing a threat often revolved around landing a carefuly planned Ooze, or playing sub-par cards like Kitchen Finks that would slightly improve the MU, but not enough to be out of Delver + burn range. The MU was still heavily favorable for Nic Fit then. Arianrhod rode Baneslayer Angels to victory the same way any Nic Fit list can ride Thragtusk now.

Looking at the RUG MU at present, it is merely a race to Thragtusk with Ooze as a backup plan. I find it almost impossible to lose with a combination of Therapy, Explorers, Oracles, Deeds, and 5 virtual copies of Thrag/Ooze. I side in a single copy of Selkie Hedge-Mage from my SB and it is usualy the nail on the coffin (Gain 3 life + bounce Delver/Thrag is really powerful here). I don't know for the rest of Nic Fit players, but in my case, I can't remember the last time I lost a 2/3 to RUG Delver, and it represents the majority of what I face in sanctioned tournaments. I can tell you, however, that I've had occasional losses against RUG Delver as well as a good portion of losses against UR Delver in my early days of playing Nic Fit.

@Qweerios:

Would you mind going over some of your gifts piles now that you have added Genesis and removed stronghold?

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Its really hard to lose to RUG if they get anything but the nuts. When they get land,delver,delver,cantrip,catrip,counter,counter its pretty hard to win. However, I would say for at least some versions (the red ones) of Nic fit, its probably pretty close to 90/10.

Nic fit unfortunately draws a lot of bad players to the deck cause you can cast cute cards like spiritmonger in legacy with it. So you probably played against a lot of those people.

That said, stifle does improve the match for RUG. 60/40 sounds about right, but again for some variations of the deck it could be better or worse.

Also, no one in this thread has even suggested running 4 decay so I have no idea where that is coming from.

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I think I would at least one but not four. It does seem like if you have more then one you want to run them in a BG build or BUg build.

This thread is moving fast with the spoiler season in full swing.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

*Like.*

Now, a few questions:

How often did you flashback the Edict? Did it ever matter that Edict cost 2 as opposed to I.Blood's 1? (Assume that you didn't have I.Blood in your board for this question. Thinking of replacing). How often did you use I.Blood to sac your own Explorer?

How were the Maelstrom Pulses? I'm strongly considering replacing them with Bonfires, which would improve the tribal matchup a bit, while still maintaining the ability to kill planeswalkers (redirect the damage to the walker). The deck would suffer a little in the artifact and enchantment killing department, as it would be wholly reliant on Deed and/or BW->Pulse. Might consider putting in a Gleeful Sabotage if I make that change.

How would the Arenas have been for you, if you had them in your board as opposed to the Carpets? Seems from your report that Carpets were better overall, but some of that might be matchup-speciifc.

How often did you have to mull because of color screw in your opener, and how was the Volrath's Stronghold? Would it have been better as a 2nd Stomping Ground, you think?

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1) Everytime I wished for Chainer's Edict I flashed it back. This was probably three or four times during the tournament. It really punishes people who are "playing around" Deed or other sweepers. The seven mana cost for the flashback might seem unreasonable, but I was able to get there easily throughout the tournament. I did use Innocent Blood a few times to take out my own Explorer. I personally like the split. Having the option of either of those was working really well for me.

2) Maelstrom Pulse, on the other hand, was rarely seen. I just didn't draw too many of them throughout the day. I ran a couple out trying to get rid of a Jace in my match two but they were Counterbalanced. Also, several games I sat with them in my hand facing down some Mongooses. I do think it is a great card to have access to, so I would never remove it completely from the 75. I could see Bonfire being decent in the sideboard. We are also considering Lavalanche, but that is probably just worse.

3) Phyrexian Arena does seem sweet. There were several games were I was out of gas with only a top in play. I just recently acquired a few so I will be testing them out myself. Carpet of Flowers was huge for me but I played almost exclusively blue decks all day. This is a card that is probably very meta-dependent.

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Originally Posted by Osmin

exw, grats! Can you describe your side-ins and side-outs?

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Certainly. For the most part I kept the wishboard intact during the matches. I preferred to have a choice with a Burning Wish, rather than have the side-boarded sorcery.
Against RUG I brought in Carpet of Flowers and some amount of REBs (really only if I saw Stifle). I usually removed some combination of Wood Elves, Wickerbough Elder (He came out after every game one) and Maelstrom Pulses.

Against Zoo, I pretty much left the maindeck untouched. I didn't really have anything specific for them, and wasn't very troubled by their action.

Against Esper, I brought in the Carpet of Flowers and the REBs. REB was very good in these matches for me. Again, I typically removed the Wood Elves, Wickerbough Elder and the Maelstrom Pulses.

Again, I didn't really run the gauntlet as far as matchups goes. I also probably have much less experience with this deck than most people in the thread. This is just my experiences with it, and what worked well for me.

I keep seeing that people are testing BUG-fit, and occasionally see lists thrown around, but is there a semi-optimal BUG list floating around, just to work from?

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This thread is moving fast with the spoiler season in full swing.

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This thread tends to move pretty quick in general =) We have a lot of good discussion here....really is one of the best threads on here IMO.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

This thread tends to move pretty quick in general =) We have a lot of good discussion here....really is one of the best threads on here IMO.

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I second that. Unfortunately there's no legacy scene near me that I know of yet, just moved to a new state, but I'm slowly accumulating cards. The frequency of Nic Fit's conversations and tweakings is definitely a huge draw--I played Aggro Loam for quite awhile and really enjoyed the deck but there's virtually no discussion for it anymore. It's hard to stay interested in a deck that no one talks about when you don't have anyone to really play with haha.

For anyone who's considered Bonfire, you should also consider the bajillion x damage to each creature variants - Comet Storm, Star Storm, Firespout, Slagstorm. And Rolling Earthquake - definitely the closest you can get to Bonfire without the whole non-Miracle cost disadvantage.

For anyone not running red, there's always Crypt Rats/Plague Spitter type effects. I suppose Plague Spitter could be decent vs. Mav, killing off all their x/1's.

There's almost no non-miracle disadvantage. With Tops we can keep it floating on top. If we do draw it, it still isn't a problem because we have access to so much mana. We're not really going to need to hardcast it for 6 or something stupid like that. It's to help the tribal matchups and such. Assuming we aren't miracle-ing it, X=2 is perfectly fine most of the time, which only costs 5. The other red wraths aren't one sided, which, along with the insane miracle blowout, is the most appealing part.

I saw a couple of requests for BUG Fit and Gifts Fit lists so I will post mine. They are very similar because I have moved from the black core of BG Nic Fit to the blue core. The reasons for this shift are mainly:

-Jace > Liliana;
-Brainstorm > Innocent Blood/Thoughtseize split

Gifts Fit

Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Genesis
1 Grave Titan
1 Sphinx of Uthuun

Spells (24)
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage
2 Vendilion Clique



Common Gifts piles include:

Genesis, Cabal Therapy, Eternal Witness, Thragtusk/Grave Titan/Sphinx of Uthuun

Karakas, Eternal Witness, Green Sun's Zenith, Vendilion Clique

The current BUG Fit list I play is almost a copy of this one with a few exceptions:

-1 Genesis for +1 Fierce Empath;
-1 Karakas for +1 Volrath Stronghold;
-2 Gifts Ungiven for +1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor and +1 Vraska the Unseen

I am also testing a transformational sideboard for Stoneblade, Miracle, and High Tide where I substitute all the Explorers and Therapies in favor of Carpet of Flowers, Thoughtseize, and various counterspells.

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Originally Posted by catmint

But there is no matchups in legacy that I would call 90/10. Even Zoo against Merfolk was like 70/30. Only matchups come to mind which could be 90/10 is burn vs. soul silsters.

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What about Lands vs. High Tide?

I've played Lands for 2 tournaments now and beat High Tide in both :tongue:

Gift pile with Genesis leads me to idea of Buried Alive piles.
Buried Alive is weaker than Intuition and is vulnerable to gravehate, but on the other hand it allows you to stay in :b::g: or splash white/red if you want.

Some Buried Alive piles:
Genesis, Shriekmaw, something - creature kill engine
Genesis, Sakura-Tribe Elder, something - ramp engine
Genesis, Faerie Macabre, something - gravehate engine
Nim Devourer, 2xSomething - if you realy need sacrifice outlet
Genesis, big creature, something - grab-a-finisher pile
Genesis, Vengevine, 1-costed creature - if you have another cheap creature in hand, you can activate Vengevine next turn
Genesis, Squee, Goblin Nabob, something - Food for Liliana of the Veil or Fauna Shaman (Fauna Shaman works with Vengevine too)
3 Vengevines - if you have 2 creatures in hand

Have anyone thought of such engine?

This sunday I will participate in a legacy tournament (really good prices!)with my GBw deck. Haven't been playing for all summer so I will probably be a bit stiff or w/e. Although I did some play testing yesterday against MUD, U/W Miracle and some combo deck that ran show&tell/emrakul and helm of obedience combo.

I had a hard time chosing between GBw and GB. But I think GBw is stronger because of sigarda, swords and sun titan.

MUD

I literally slaughtered this guy. He had wurmcoil turn 2 or something and later on he would cast 2x Eldrazi's (kozilek and urmog(?)). Buuuut sun titan + pernicious deed is just simply too powerful. Also, sigarda does a great job against annihilator. I love how the people I play with all make fun of me because I play with "standard" cards (sun titan, sigarda etc) but I still get them :-)

UW Miracle

This matchup is hard but absolutley doable. We played 2-2 I think before I had to leave. Both of the games I lost, was to Jace. Pernicious deed is an allstar against UW Miracle. The only problem I seem to have against this deck is Jace. I only run 2x Maelstrom pulse MD, thinking of adding another one. What do you think about that? Or is there any other answer that's good against jace? needle maybe.

Combo deck

This deck was very hard, partly because I had never played against it before so I was not quite sure how to play. I can answer helm of obedience combo farily good (pulse, deed, teeg and qasali) but show and tell -> emrakul gets me every time. I feel like I have a pretty good deck against him though, maybe I was a bit unlucky and the fact that I haven't actually played against it before. When liliana hit the board, he just scooped pretty much. She's lovely!

I really want to add more planeswalker to my deck. Currently I'm only running 2x liliana. Reason why is that they are soo good with deed and decks like UW miracle and other similar control decks have a hard time to answer those walkers. Not sure which ones I should add, candidates are the following:

elspeht knight errant
garruk relentless
garruk primal hunter (GGG might be too much in this deck)
Gideon jura
karn liberated

Right now I'm leaning against elspeth. Feels like she could take of jace somewhat good too.

Also one more thing, I'm tbh not sure about Thragtusk. It feels like I have a good matchup against burn/UR delver decks as is, and I feel that's the only setup I want thragtusk against anyways. I will be cutting him for now. Perhaps if I'd run recurring then I could make some sweet interactions, but Im not.

If it goes well on sunday, I will make a report.

Buried Alive actually seems very interesting... A tad slow, but certainly powerful. A sample pile; Genesis, Eternal Witness, Thragtusk? Admittedly I have never played with BA, Gifts, or Intuition so I am not familiar with piles.