Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
Also, skip pyroclasm. Use Whipflare to save your revokers and metalworkers.
One of the matchups that I want pyroclasm for is death and taxes. One of the best cards death and taxes has against us is phyrexian revoker. So I would never run whipflare over pyroclasm for this reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlock
Whats the best second equipment besides Batterskul (for godo)l? I am torn between a second skull, SOFI or Jitte.
I think its a mistake to run more than 1 godo (even 1 may be too many), as being red and not an artifact is a big deal. More batterskulls or wurmcoil engines are preferable. Equipment like jitte and sofi are bad in a deck like this, because the only creatures you have either don't want to tap down to attack (metalworker, welder, kuldotha), or don't need equipment because they are already giant and hard to kill (blighsteel, wurmcoil, titan).
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
what changes would you do to the mana base (including the use of mox diamond but not of talisman of impulse because I think it's just too bad here) in order to play 3 daretti?....are 33 artifacts sufficient for metalworker activations or could you see swapping one for the fourth monolith?
since you weren't impressed with lodestone golem in your build, do you think dropping them for 3 trinisphere could be an upgrade?
I honestly just wouldn't run red with cloudposts.
33 artifacts is what it is. Sometimes metalworker doesn't tap for much mana, sometimes it hardcasts a blighsteel. At any rate, worker is better than monolith and at the very least is a nice lightning rod. I hadn't considered cutting lodestone for trinisphere. I just fear the deck is threat-light as it is, but I might try it. I really just want a playable artifact that's less than 6 mana. Or a hexproof beatstick...
Quote:
Originally Posted by enzee
I'm a sucker for value tricks and my instinct says to put welder and/or daretti in there. I understand why that guy didn't, since he's trying hard to drop a chalice for 1 on turn 1, and then he can't cast welder anyways.
Would you say the 12post version is a little more straight forward in how it operates? While I believe I'm a strong player in general, I'm also realistic considering my lack of legacy experience.
I would point out that Santomassino certainly knew about welder and daretti, and decided to not play them. Also note that cavern of souls gets welder through chalice, and is a common play for me. The 12post version is more straight forward, and the welder lists more intricate. However both are far from complicated decks, running no instants or library manipulation or removal. You ramp and play big things, you'll be fine with whatever list you run.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
honz
One of the matchups that I want pyroclasm for is death and taxes. One of the best cards death and taxes has against us is phyrexian revoker. So I would never run
whipflare over pyroclasm for this reason.
If D&T you are the one fearing Revokers, then it indeed seems unwise to run Whipflare.
Quote:
I think its a mistake to run more than 1 godo (even 1 may be too many), as being red and not an artifact is a big deal. More batterskulls or wurmcoil engines are preferable. Equipment like jitte and sofi are bad in a deck like this, because the only creatures you have either don't want to tap down to attack (metalworker, welder, kuldotha), or don't need equipment because they are already giant and hard to kill (blighsteel, wurmcoil, titan).
I'm currently running 2 Batterskulls and 1 Godo. Godo has been outstanding so far. Drawing into the second Godo isn't much of an issue, but having no targets to search for is.
Quote:
I would point out that Santomassino certainly knew about welder and daretti, and decided to not play them. Also note that
cavern of souls gets welder through chalice, and is a common play for me. The 12post version is more straight forward, and the welder lists more intricate. However both are far from complicated decks, running no instants or library manipulation or removal. You ramp and play big things, you'll be fine with whatever list you run.
My guess is that there was just not enough time to properly find the correct Daretti configuration prior to the tournament. From my testing, the card has been, pretty much the best card in the deck aside of Chalice of the Void for 1.
How can I put this.. When Daretti is online, which is super easy to do, it's almost a 4 mana Staff of Nin that can deal 2 to 4 damage instead of 1, and draws 1 to 2 cards instead of 1, that can also weld robots and give you a Lifeline emblem for all your artifacts.
I know the comparison can't really be made, but it's the best way I know how to express how crazy this walker is in conjunction with punishing fire and potentially with loam (didnt test that yet).
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
How can I put this.. When Daretti is online, which is super easy to do, it's almost a 4 mana Staff of Nin that can deal 2 to 4 damage instead of 1, and draws 1 to 2 cards instead of 1, that can also weld robots and give you a Lifeline emblem for all your artifacts.
I know the comparison can't really be made, but it's the best way I know how to express how crazy this walker is in conjunction with punishing fire and potentially with loam (didnt test that yet).
Well.. from the research I've done, and some of the playtesting I've managed to get in now.. they really are two different types of decks. I'm sure Daretti is ridiculous when the deck is setup to take advantage of it, but that requires removing the 11post landbase. His deck took advantage of the abundant amount of mana to hardcast wurmcoils and sundering titans right away, which takes a little bit longer to do without that manabase.
The daretti/welder style is more controlling, and able to grind out games. The version he ran was more of a pseudo combo deck (or more focused on pulling off combos, rather), dropping chalice/trinisphere to slow the game down a turn or two, so that his opponent gets crippled by a sundering titan (which he's more likely to actually draw rather then tutor, since there is 3 copies). Against decks running 2-3 colors, the sundering titan on turn 4 is often a one sided armageddon.
That said, it seems very all or nothing with his version. You can get flooded with mana producing cards and then have your one important spell get FoW'd and just lose. When you draw well, it's hard to beat it, and he likely ran pretty well in that tournament.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
enzee
Well.. from the research I've done, and some of the playtesting I've managed to get in now.. they really are two different types of decks. I'm sure Daretti is ridiculous when the deck is setup to take advantage of it, but that requires removing the 11post landbase. His deck took advantage of the abundant amount of mana to hardcast wurmcoils and sundering titans right away, which takes a little bit longer to do without that manabase.
The daretti/welder style is more controlling, and able to grind out games. The version he ran was more of a pseudo combo deck (or more focused on pulling off combos, rather), dropping chalice/trinisphere to slow the game down a turn or two, so that his opponent gets crippled by a sundering titan (which he's more likely to actually draw rather then tutor, since there is 3 copies). Against decks running 2-3 colors, the sundering titan on turn 4 is often a one sided armageddon.
That said, it seems very all or nothing with his version. You can get flooded with mana producing cards and then have your one important spell get FoW'd and just lose. When you draw well, it's hard to beat it, and he likely ran pretty well in that tournament.
Your analysis is spot on. The two decks do fundamentally different things. I think that EVEN IF you would add Daretti to the 11 post base (assuming you could get the manabase to work), it would still serve a different role, namely that it ensures you can recur artifacts through a wall of counterspells and spot removal. Here it is important to note that Daretti itself can be countered, whereas cavern of souls with goblin welder cannot and goblin welder can be hit be spot removal whereas daretti cannot (abrupt decay, swords to plowshares and lightning bolt don't kill it).
For the 11-post manabase, I'd keep it colorless and just hold out for the new planeswalker Ugin which should be spoiled in a few months from now. I suspect that if there is going to be a nice bomb that the colorless list can take advantage of, it's going to be that guy. I could see a turbo-walker list in the future (Karn Liberated and Ugin), but this is getting ahead way too much :-). From my experience, powerful characters and important storyline events usually don't disappoint. Karn's come back was extremely important in New Phyrexia and it would have lead to great disappointment if Karn was an underpowered card. Likewise, Ugin from worldwake contained the Eldrazi. That means he's powerful enough to deal with the Eldrazi and those are currently the most powerful creatures in the game. I'm expecting one hell of a colorless haymaker here :)
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
Your analysis is spot on. The two decks do fundamentally different things. I think that EVEN IF you would add Daretti to the 11 post base (assuming you could get the manabase to work), it would still serve a different role, namely that it ensures you can recur artifacts through a wall of counterspells and spot removal. Here it is important to note that Daretti itself can be countered, whereas cavern of souls with goblin welder cannot and goblin welder can be hit be spot removal whereas daretti cannot (abrupt decay, swords to plowshares and lightning bolt don't kill it).
For the 11-post manabase, I'd keep it colorless and just hold out for the new planeswalker Ugin which should be spoiled in a few months from now. I suspect that if there is going to be a nice bomb that the colorless list can take advantage of, it's going to be that guy. I could see a turbo-walker list in the future (Karn Liberated and Ugin), but this is getting ahead way too much :-). From my experience, powerful characters and important storyline events usually don't disappoint. Karn's come back was extremely important in New Phyrexia and it would have lead to great disappointment if Karn was an underpowered card. Likewise, Ugin from worldwake contained the Eldrazi. That means he's powerful enough to deal with the Eldrazi and those are currently the most powerful creatures in the game. I'm expecting one hell of a colorless haymaker here :)
I don't know if it being powerful is really the concern though, I mean honestly we aren't really lacking for powerful colorless cards. The games I lose are almost never due to an opponent casting more powerful cards but usually because of mana screw or drawing nothing. I don't think another powerful colorless planeswalker will help much unless it can be reasonably cast without a metalworker or an active locus. I would probably prefer it cost 4 mana and give us more action, be it drawing cards, recurring artifacts or tutoring, then have some insane effect at 6.7 or 8 mana. Maybe a -X transmute artifact and a +X that protects itself or can be offensive a like turning target artifact into a 3/3 until your next turn or make it a mishra's factory, something like that, but I really don't want more cards to clunk up the top of the curve that will do nothing to help the key problems with the deck.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheYoungster
I don't know if it being powerful is really the concern though, I mean honestly we aren't really lacking for powerful colorless cards. The games I lose are almost never due to an opponent casting more powerful cards but usually because of mana screw or drawing nothing. I don't think another powerful colorless planeswalker will help much unless it can be reasonably cast without a metalworker or an active locus. I would probably prefer it cost 4 mana and give us more action, be it drawing cards, recurring artifacts or tutoring, then have some insane effect at 6.7 or 8 mana. Maybe a -X transmute artifact and a +X that protects itself or can be offensive a like turning target artifact into a 3/3 until your next turn or make it a mishra's factory, something like that, but I really don't want more cards to clunk up the top of the curve that will do nothing to help the key problems with the deck.
Realistically speaking I think that we can only expect Ugin to be top curve so we'll have to make due with that.
The problem of MUD has always been variance and losing to itself, and this is in large part due to ill distribution of converted mana-costs across cards. However, I think the 11 post base best handles top heavy by fact that locus lands scale up as the game progresses.
Ever since I started brewing with red-MUD, my objective was to lower the average converted mana cost, and at the time beat Swords to Plowshares and Jace, the Mindsculptor. This is why I opted for Godo and Batterskull over Wurmcoil Engine and Moltensteel Dragon. I think that uniting 11-post with red MUD won't solve the variance issues. Rather, it would be 11 post with a resilient walker attached to it and extra sideboard options.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
...
I think that uniting 11-post with red MUD won't solve the variance issues. Rather, it would be 11 post with a resilient walker attached to it and extra sideboard options.
But wouldn't the addition of Daretti, which actually draws cards, help with the variance issues (provided that the curve would be lowered even a bit)?
That's basically how I would like to use daretti in MUD, to support the base strategy and lower the variance of the deck. If only I had some spare time from work I would test a list but I can't right now :(
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
Realistically speaking I think that we can only expect Ugin to be top curve so we'll have to make due with that.
The problem of MUD has always been variance and losing to itself, and this is in large part due to ill distribution of converted mana-costs across cards. However, I think the 11 post base best handles top heavy by fact that locus lands scale up as the game progresses.
Ever since I started brewing with red-MUD, my objective was to lower the average converted mana cost, and at the time beat Swords to Plowshares and Jace, the Mindsculptor. This is why I opted for Godo and Batterskull over Wurmcoil Engine and Moltensteel Dragon. I think that uniting 11-post with red MUD won't solve the variance issues. Rather, it would be 11 post with a resilient walker attached to it and extra sideboard options.
Well the variance is the reason why I'm not excited about Ugin because everybody who is informed knows it will cost quite a bit which means it won't solve any issues the deck has. 12/11 post mana base helps but not against wastelands and you always run the risk of just running out of threats which is what makes the miracles match up tough. The fact the Daretti makes it so you can draw into more action and adds a resiliency to countermagic/some removal is what is making me consider switching to the red version.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Daretti filters and digs for threats which does solve problems for the deck. However, I think you're actually increasing your curve if you take Daretti over Goblin Welder. That shouldn't be much of a problem in this deck since you're fixing primarily your top heavy (6 / 7 / 8 CC) cards by trading them for something else. Also important is to view Daretti as a mana source. Welding in a Sundering Titan is 8 less mana you have to worry about. You can't view Goblin Welder like a virtual mana source because Goblin welder has no way to get the cards in the graveyard.
He truly shines in conjunction with Punishing Fires but I think he's good enough to play without punishing fire. Daretti is a faithless looting and a goblin welder in one card so he works double time which is why I'm pretty sure you're going to love the card if you can resolve it.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Froggy
I finished 2nd at my local Legacy with 12Post MUD. Great fun was had. :)
Care to report?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
Daretti filters and digs for threats which does solve problems for the deck. However, I think you're actually increasing your curve if you take Daretti over Goblin Welder. That shouldn't be much of a problem in this deck since you're fixing primarily your top heavy (6 / 7 / 8 CC) cards by trading them for something else. Also important is to view Daretti as a mana source. Welding in a Sundering Titan is 8 less mana you have to worry about. You can't view Goblin Welder like a virtual mana source because Goblin welder has no way to get the cards in the graveyard.
He truly shines in conjunction with Punishing Fires but I think he's good enough to play without punishing fire. Daretti is a faithless looting and a goblin welder in one card so he works double time which is why I'm pretty sure you're going to love the card if you can resolve it.
I'm definitely going to test it, but unfortunately I just haven't had the chance between a busy schedule, no legacy scene unless I want to drive an hour to Roanoke (which just isn't feasible right now) and my computer being repaired so I can't even jam games on cockatrice. I don't know if I really want to play punishing fire, mainly because I don't want to buy groves right now and I can't borrow any anymore so I'm just going to stick with a mono red version with cards I have or can reasonable get, but if it proves too good not to use then ill probably get the fire package.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Are there any MUD players on Twitch?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Played MUD for the first time in probably 6 months with Daretti scrap servant at my weekly LGS event. The week before I played against combo after combo deck and MUD has the inherent ability to not let them play much magic. Of course this particular week I play against U/R delver in rounds 1 and 2 followed by death and taxes in round 3. I didn't fare too well, as I feel like they can both be very bad matchups.
There were two games against UR delver where Daretti shined. One involved casting a wurmcoil into a force of will, following up my turn with Daretti into a minus for the wurmcoil. Equip boots and swinging. Another game involved plusing Daretti to discard Sundering Titan to weld it back in the following turn.
Overall the deck seems fairly consistent, it even muliganed decently well.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maCHOOga
Played MUD for the first time in probably 6 months with Daretti scrap servant at my weekly LGS event. The week before I played against combo after combo deck and MUD has the inherent ability to not let them play much magic. Of course this particular week I play against U/R delver in rounds 1 and 2 followed by death and taxes in round 3. I didn't fare too well, as I feel like they can both be very bad matchups.
There were two games against UR delver where Daretti shined. One involved casting a wurmcoil into a force of will, following up my turn with Daretti into a minus for the wurmcoil. Equip boots and swinging. Another game involved plusing Daretti to discard Sundering Titan to weld it back in the following turn.
Overall the deck seems fairly consistent, it even muliganed decently well.
U/R seems like an easier match for MUD. Were your chalices FOW'd/Dazed all day?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I am a documented Welder addict but am seated aboard the MUD-Post boat in the current waters.
A few pages back I posted a manabase which was met with mild criticism for running fewer than 8 Sol Lands in favor of more Caverns and Wastelands. My reasoning was that I want as many threats to resolve as possible since I'm not as good at refueling as the Brainstorm-Ponder decks. City of Traitors is awful with CIPT lands. Wasteland is great for buying just one extra turn with Trinisphere or to guard against Dark Depths. Having run the same manabase for 30 matches now and winning the great majority, I will repost it with confidence.
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
*1 Flex spot
Sideboard
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Powder Keg
1 Anti-burn creature (Wurmcoil / Emperion)
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Others
The maindeck flex spot has been various cards including Karn Liberated, Platinum Angel, Myr Battlesphere, Platinum Emperion, Lightning Greaves, and most recently the fourth Vesuva.
Sundering Titan -- Having three copies has been perfect since I want to draw into it and not just tutor through Forgemaster. This card obliterates decks and is the finisher in the majority of my wins, many in which it works alongside Trinisphere.
Blightsteel Colossus -- I've hard-cast it as often as I've tutored for it. Neither of those have happened particularly often. Its best attribute has been the threat of it. I could probably get that value anyway by running it in the sideboard for when I really need it.
I'm still unsure about the Platinum Angel. I've had it in the deck for 6 matches and can't recall casting it or tutoring for it even once.
It's rare to get Cloudposts going and not win. Land-heavy hands are the way to go.
Any suggestions for the final 4 sideboard slots?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maCHOOga
Overall the deck seems fairly consistent, it even muliganed decently well.
I think you're the first person to ever say that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sockosensei
A few pages back I posted a manabase which was met with mild criticism for running fewer than 8 Sol Lands in favor of more Caverns and Wastelands.....
Any suggestions for the final 4 sideboard slots?
Honestly, you are running a very standard post list. Most people I have seen run 11-posts, 3 cities, 3 caverns, but the difference of 1 card is hardly game changing. The main reason people like to run the full 8 sol lands is to power out turn 1 chalice at 1, turn 1 monolith -> trinisphere, or turn 2 trinisphere. These plays simply are not possible with cloudposts. It is just a trade off between consistency and explosiveness.
I have said this before, but I strongly believe a 1/2 split of batterskull/wurmcoil is better than 3 wurmcoils. Batterskull is already bigger than every creature in the format except other batterskulls and goyfs, plus you can easily equip/recast it. It fills the same role, while being better in some situations. Also platinum emperion is a monster in the maindeck, specifically game 1 where many decks just don't have an answer for it.
I always liked 1 contagion engine in my board against elves/death and taxes/young pyro. I also like 1 duplicant for show and tell/reanimator. I think trading post is decent against heavy control decks (miracles/stoneblade). Torpor orb isn't terrible either. Sun droplet against burn. Don't be afraid to run pithing needle if you expect alot of loam decks (for waste or dark depths). Platinum angel is more of a SB card in my mind, only coming in against infect. Witchbane orb against burn/discard/storm. I haven't seen it in a while but silent arbiter has potential, as does caltrops.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
honz
Honestly, you are running a very standard post list. Most people I have seen run 11-posts, 3 cities, 3 caverns, but the difference of 1 card is hardly game changing. The main reason people like to run the full 8 sol lands is to power out turn 1 chalice at 1, turn 1 monolith -> trinisphere, or turn 2 trinisphere. These plays simply are not possible with cloudposts. It is just a trade off between consistency and explosiveness.
Indeed, it's very much a standard post list, nothing revolutionary.
I just wanted to mention it again now that I've done more testing since I'm getting far better and more consistent results than I ever managed with Welder. I've definitely traded a touch of explosiveness for consistency. It has worked out positively in non-reanimator, non-T1 combo matchups, which represent the majority of my online testing and local meta. Cavern of Souls has been consistently excellent as many matchups become "resolve a Sundering Titan, Wurmcoil, or Forgemaster and win". Sandbag the Cavern for maximum value and surprise effect.
When I first tried the Post builds months ago, it was with all 12 posts, 8 Sol lands, and 4 Wastelands. I had so many awkward hands with City+CIPT lands that it was brutal. Add in a few opposing Wastelands or a key creature getting countered, and I couldn't put together consistent success. It's much different now (and the meta shift has contributed there as well).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
honz
I have said this before, but I strongly believe a 1/2 split of batterskull/wurmcoil is better than 3 wurmcoils. Batterskull is already bigger than every creature in the format except other batterskulls and goyfs, plus you can easily equip/recast it. It fills the same role, while being better in some situations. Also platinum emperion is a monster in the maindeck, specifically game 1 where many decks just don't have an answer for it.
I always liked 1
contagion engine in my board against elves/death and taxes/young pyro. I also like 1
duplicant for show and tell/reanimator. I think
trading post is decent against heavy control decks (miracles/stoneblade).
Torpor orb isn't terrible either.
Sun droplet against burn. Don't be afraid to run
pithing needle if you expect alot of loam decks (for waste or dark depths).
Platinum angel is more of a SB card in my mind, only coming in against infect.
Witchbane orb against burn/discard/storm. I haven't seen it in a while but
silent arbiter has potential, as does
caltrops.
Thanks for the suggestions. I'd completely overlooked Sun Droplet and Contagion Engine.
I have run Batterskull at points in the flex slot and just forgot to mention it. I liked it in addition to Wurmcoil, not as a replacement.
Platinum Emperion goes into the maindeck on MTGO for the common Burn matchup.
I haven't given up on Welder, especially with Daretti now as a compliment. I'm just riding too high on Post and the bottom refuses to drop out.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Froggy
Crap sorry didn't see you asked me for a report. I didn't take any notes so no report... my bad..
You are just the worst ;)
