Hey davek
How many extract in the board? What is B plan if tendrils is in hand? :)
I like the card but unless you play 2-3 in side it will arrive too late no?
But as storm is the worst MU maybe you have enough space for that
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Hey davek
How many extract in the board? What is B plan if tendrils is in hand? :)
I like the card but unless you play 2-3 in side it will arrive too late no?
But as storm is the worst MU maybe you have enough space for that
B-plan is extracting Ad Nauseam, permanently removing their best draw engine. In this way you'll force them to go to the Pif route, so your Crop Rotation become your best counterspells. C-plan (if both Ad Nauseam and Tendrils are in their hand) is removing Pif, of course. I know it's a high risk card, but it's fun to see the face of your opponent when you play it.
I just went back to the stream, watched the beginning of the match.Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Funk
"Turn 1 glimmerpost on the play, Pithing Needles naming Wasteland"
...I'm just done. I just shut off the stream after that. I can't stand to watch some dude terribly misinformed about this deck try and play it.
Later I turned it back on hoping it was just a single misplay and hopefully he wasn't as bad as I thought he would be and he is just conceding with MOMENT'S PEACE IN THE GRAVEYARD.
What would you rather do turn one? I see that you don't like that play and can sort of understand why, but I often do it myself if I feel that as long as I'm protected from wasteland I'll be able to go off. What would you do instead? or if going back is too hard (it is or I would list the cards for you) maybe what would you prefer?
I agree with endqwerty! It's the normal way you play game 1 against unknown deck. Absolutly no reason to laugh at Mr Hunt.
You guys are dead wrong, and this isn't exclusive to post. If you're playing an unknown opponent you want to have the tools to react what to what they are doing. The only way to be proactive to unknown threats is to give yourself options. That T1 play is the "belcher" way to play post and you will only be as successful as your luck is when doing that. The play was terrible. Goldfishing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
The 'normal' way to play to play an unknown opponent is to fetch a basic (if you really think wining is only contingent on wasteland), and have options to REACT: crop in case of blowout from graveyard, legends, or high damage, repeal for threats and top/storm to dig and protect from black. If the hand can't provide you with these options against the unknown - don't keep it.
Even if you are so stuck on playing needle on wasteland. At least play it after you know the card is in their deck, which can be known turn 2, after you've played a basic.
Tbh, none of these plays except removing the ToA from ANT, is really backbreaking. You overrate the importance of the engine cards here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek
Hmmm, with Xantid + Pithing Needle in storm SBS these days, I wouldn't count on the SDT-trick as it is well-known. Also it sounds too optimistic to have the SDT+floated counter and/or Revoker set up in a timeframe that matters. If your opponent is as dumb to let you play for 5 turns unmolested and then decides to go all-in blindly against SDT in play, you can't help them anymore :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I do not disagree that it's not going to happen often but that's the goal you should be working towards every game and evaluating your opening hands based on that.
Obviously if I have any kind of interaction post board, I will be keeping the hand.
And of course, storm players don't always get the nut hands either of t1 Xantid swarm, t2 Kill you.
Agree w/ Tim. I never t1 Pithing needle wasteland vs unknown opponent. It is fully incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHarding
And in a lot of scenarios they don't even need the nut draw or the protection to outmaneuver slow hate and single angles of defense, which you should recognize.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
In fact, it's mainly here to kill ANT, since the other 3 decks are pretty rare to say the minimum here. From what i know, Doomsday cannot win without Ideas Unbound, since all the combinations of cards they may want involve this card. TES is the less afflicted, but removing their best draw engine means they'll have to go to most risky way (Pif). Regarding Omnitell, consider that removing emrakul means that if they do not have the Lab Maniac version, which is the rarest to face, their only closure consist in clashing with you 20 or more times (it depends on how many glimmerposts you have dropped during the game), so it's pretty easy to reveal your own emrakul, win the clash and stop them definitely. I wouldn't totally rely on this card, of course, my sb is filled with classical counterspells, but it's better than you may think :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Okay, so if I mulligan into relic or 1 counterspell, it already buys me a ton of time because you cannot beat relic w/o Ad Nauseam since PiF is dead and you cannot beat 1 counterspell w/o Xantid swarm and/or duress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
If I have SDT/Brainstorm it makes duress not a thing. So you have to basically have Xantid swarm and me not have relic for you to go down the Ad nauseam route to win the game.
That also implies you understand that this is the route the game is going to develop in if both players get at least some part of what they need to play magic.
Obviously t1 kills and/or bad keeps for 12 post side will skew these results.
Xantid swarm is by far the most effective way to defeat 12 post post board.
Hey guys! Just started playing the deck and it seems pretty sweet/fun/REALLY GOOD :D. A few comments/questions!
Maybe you have a great hand full of non-basics and a needle. Is it a mull?Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
As an avid storm player, Doomsday is not shut down by removing Ideas unbound unless they dont really know what they are doing. The cheapest piles are double cantrip ones (eg top in play, brainstorm in hand) , for what its worth... TES I also dont think is hit very hard by it (can tutor chain/BW as primary wincon). But yes, I suspect its good vs ANT and the other ones dont see too much play (although I suspect TES is the best storm deck...). Be aware that ANT might bring in another copy of tendrils along with Bob as a grind plan. Its quite an old plan now, but might be played :). Storm is used to plowing through 2-3 counterspells on a go off, and the clock isnt so strong, so it can be quite a challenge to kill them in time. Also FWIW, I played around with both sides of the matchup (storm vsQuote:
Originally Posted by Davek
Eldrazi) quite a lot recently, and the match certainly seems to be in storms favour. Like all matchups against storm though, is pretty skill dependent. The Eldrazi certainly have a lot of tricks up their sleeves (if plane devouring monsters do have sleeves XD).
What you say is true, but they'll bring 11 or so cards vs counters G2-3 and still be trying actively to kill you from turns 2-3.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Anyway, like I say, loving playing the deck (crop rotation is a house :D), just thought id add some more input from the storm side!
The Spanish Tunnel King
No, it's not a mull. Let's consider these hands:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spanish Tunnel King
Hand 1:
Lands: Cloudpost, Vesuva, Tropical Island
Spells: Needle, Primeval Titan, Crop rotation, Crop rotation
On the play my line vs unknown is probably Tropical Island, GO. I don't particularly want them to spend their 1st turn wastelanding Cloudpost because I have no S&T for my Titan so I naturally want to resolve him.
I won't play Pithing needle for certain since I have 2 Crop rotations and also have no reason to believe opponent is playing wasteland or even has one in his hand. So casting needle is just throwing away a card here.
This is the easiest/clearest scenario though.
On the draw you get information to know whether you should be needling or not. However, this hand has 2 crop rotations and you want them to waste their land drop and give your Crop rotation value. I am not going to run my Crop rotation into a counterspell and typically I only play it reactively or in dire circumstances vs decks that have counterspells.
If opponent opens up on Volcanic island -> Delver of secrets, I still think you play Tropical and say go. The reason is if you go Tropical Island -> Needle and it gets dazed and then they untap and wasteland you, you're f**ked.
The reason is your 2 crop rotations do nothing now and you have no way protect your Cloudpost. Vesuva can only copy Volcanic island now which still does not give you green next turn. Again this shows why you do not play t1 Needle even when it may seem like the correct play.
Hand 2:
Lands: Cloudpost, Island, Bojuka Bog, Karakas
Spells: Sensei's Divining Top, Show and tell, Pithing needle
On the play, it is straightforward, Island -> SDT, GO. There is no way you do anything else here. If for example the SDT in hand was Crop rotation or Trinket Mage or another currently uncastable thing, I would mulligan. If SDT was a Map, I would keep and play map, passing turn. This would be a much weaker hand though.
On the draw, based on what opponent did, I would decide. If opponent went T1 Delver or DRS, I would most likely play Island and Needle on either DRS or Wasteland (if Delver was played). If needle gets dazed, you're OK because you get to most likely untap, draw and play Karakas and SDT to play around another daze. If needle resolves, you're in good shape here.
Hand 3:
Lands: Misty Rainforest, Misty Rainforest, Cloudpost, Eye of Ugin
Spells: Brainstorm, Pithing needle, Show and Tell
On the play, easiest Misty GO of my life with the plan of not casting anything until I draw for my 2nd turn. Once I draw, I may crack Misty and based on what opponent played I would decide to Brainstorm first and then cast needle (if necessary) or just Brainstorm and go from there. The goal is to get Eye out of my hand though and shuffle it.
On the draw, definitely get a lot more information, but most likely won't need to play needle for a while here since you want to maximize your brainstorm and find something to S&T.
Hand 4:
Lands: Cloudpost, Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Eye of Ugin
Spells: Ulamog, Pithing needle, Candelabra of Tawnos
:-) I had to put this one in here.
On the play, easiest Glimmerpost -> Pithing needle on wasteland of my life.
On the draw, if not threatened by Wasteland (ie playing vs something like Elves or Burn) then most likely Cloudpost go. If threatened and you don't draw a Trop/Misty/Basic land, then you still slam Glimmerpost -> Needle on wasteland because the upside is great if it works and the downside is huge with this hand if it gets wastelanded at all.
This is very high risk/high reward hand though.
I seem to recall rock Lee saying t1 blind Pithing Needle on wasteland was the play every time...
From the first page of this thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by PilotChick
Quote:
Keep hands entirely differently based off playing or drawing.
- One of your best cards on the play is Repeal, but it becomes one of the worst on the draw.
- Against a blind opponent Pithing needle is weak on the play, but strong on the draw. The opposite is true against a known opponent.
- SDT is amazing on the play, but weaker on the draw. Despite it being weaker on the draw, it is still one of your strongest turn 1 plays.
- Hate lands, such as Tabernacle, Bog, Karakas, are stronger on the draw after they commit. Obviously Glacial chasm is weaker on the draw due to needing two land drops.
Cheers for the insight Sauce :). And yes, those lines make a lot of sense. The only one that makes me shudder a little is the fetch one. I know stifles aren't so prevalent as they once were, but i'd like to at least crack for basic, pass (which would be for an island in this case, I guess). But honestly, I have nightmares about stifle... :D
The Spanish Tunnel King
Actually, stifle on fetchland is not as brutal vs this deck even though it is annoying. Stifle is going to blow you out much harder if they stifle the Primeval titan trigger.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spanish Tunnel King
In general, most of the time if opponent is running stifle, it's going to get you one way or another.
Also, keeping a fetch in play is good because that means you're porting them for 1 every turn they choose to hold up stifle and it also tells you they have one in hand if they consistently hold it up.
Would you rather your opponent played t1 delver or held up stifle? The answer is obvious here. That's why I would not fetch.
I have said T1 blind Pithing needle on wasteland on the blind, but only if your hand can't afford to get wasted and if you have no other plays. It certainly isn't a "strong" play. A far stronger play is to fetch a Tropical Island and say go, with a Crop & needle in hand. This lets you burn their wastelands and needle real threats like Vial/Lilly/DRS.Quote:
Originally Posted by PilotChick
I will sometimes blind name waste early if I have bounce spells available as I can reset them.
As Tim Harding understands how to play the deck better than anyone I've seen in person, stream, or on scg camera as yet. He understands that the strength of the deck is its reactive bounce. This is why the deck can't be effectively goldfished. Not only does it not train vital reactive skills, but the pure-combo type mindset actively builds degenerative skills. Two Fisted testing, MWS/Cockatrice, and tournament testing are your best guides for this deck, that has the best plan of any deck, of not having a plan.
I disagree. T1 Pithing Needle is a perfectly acceptable play when you have (A) the kind of proactive hand that will win quickly against most decks as long as they don't have Wasteland (example: Forest, Cloudpost, Vesuva, Vesuva, Eye of Ugin, Candelabra, Pithing Needle), (B) an otherwise solid hand but no Crop Rotation, or (C) a solid hand without colored sources (note: this probably doesn't apply as much to U/G builds). Under those circumstances, I have no problem playing the odds and blind-naming Wasteland in a meta where a sizable portion of the meta plays it. Stopping Wasteland is the primary reason to play Needle anyway; to me, everything else it hits is just gravy.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce