[Primer/Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

With regards to whiffing on Inquisition to the point that it matters[...]

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What on earth are you arguing here? My argument applies just as much to Thoughtseize as a IoK.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

As far as Hymn to Tourach, in the discussion of discard, those thinking it's played to "hit" cards are misunderstanding it's purpose. [...]
The whole reason it's played is because it's card advantage.

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Yes. And if you whiff with a 1-mana spell you just accrued needless card disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

So as I stated before, in a vacuum, which means for those uncertain: without concern for countermagic or the opponent playing Nephilim Tribal or some bullshit; you will have a more educated choice by playing the Hymn first, thereby selecting the best choice of a smaller pool of options with the targeted discard. You will better guide the play of your opponent to an end which benefits you the most. Playing Hymn second, all you achieve is a hedged bet.

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:/
Let me put up some examples of where you are right and wrong.

Proof 1:
Imagine the opponent has 3 cards, 1 land.
Thoughtseize into hymn? You hit all three.
Hymn into thoughtseize? 33% Chance to whiff.


Proof 2:
Imagine the opponent has 4 cards, 1 non-land
Thoughtseize into hymn? You hit the card and you hit 2 lands.
Hymn into thoughtseize? 50% Chance to whiff.



Now, the counter examples (including my now corrected post before) have to do with requiring yourself to hit X cards in Y cards to win. This is because the ratio of positive hits to negative hits changes in a bad way if you TS first.

Counter 2:
Need to hit a specific 2 in 6:
Hymn First: 60% success
TS first: 40% success


So I will amend my statement:
If going for raw card advantage (fair decks most of the time) you want to Hymn Second.
If playing against Combo, you want to Hymn First.


EDIT: This was edited several times as a few of the maths were incorrect, things were rephrased accordingly.

Guidance on Inquisition wasn't directed at you, so cool that ego down. rlesko had the comments on Inquisition.

Once again, a successful Hymn is when you net +1 card advantage. Anything beyond that is gravy. So stop trying to stretch it into some super Duress or some shit. It's not. As far as casting Inquisition and seeing nothing but lands? That isn't a failure in any game I've played.

Let's say the have a 7 card hand, all are legal targets and all are relevant to you. If you cast the targeted first, you need to pick the best card from a field of 7. Then Hymn has a 1/3rd chance of taking the next best cards, leaving your opponent's next play up to chance. They get 4 cards to start their turn. If you Hymn first, you have a 2/7th chance of taking their best cards, then have the ability to take the best card from a field of 5. You are able to direct their line of play as best as you are able. They get the same number of cards at the start of their turn. So to the end of maximizing strategy, getting the most out of our targeted discard is the deciding factor. That's the whole point.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Let's say the have a 7 card hand, all are legal targets and all are relevant to you. If you cast the targeted first, you need to pick the best card from a field of 7. Then Hymn has a 1/3rd chance of taking the next best cards, leaving your opponent's next play up to chance. They get 4 cards to start their turn. If you Hymn first, you have a 2/7th chance of taking their best cards, then have the ability to take the best card from a field of 5. You are able to direct their line of play as best as you are able. They get the same number of cards at the start of their turn. So to the end of maximizing strategy, getting the most out of our targeted discard is the deciding factor. That's the whole point.

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The whole point of the question is that there is no right answer and that the play is dependent on so many things(turn, cards in opponent hand, cards in your hand, opponent deck, etc).

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

As far as Hymn to Tourach, in the discussion of discard, those thinking it's played to "hit" cards are misunderstanding it's purpose. All Hymn is is card advantage.

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Hymn to Tourach is a pure card advantage card, but we play it because it can act like anything from; better than 2 thoughtseize to just mind rot. Casting Mind Rot will never take there best card if they have more than 2 cards in hand, Hymn will take there best card a statistically significant amount of time.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Once again, a successful Hymn is when you net +1 card advantage. Anything beyond that is gravy. So stop trying to stretch it into some super Duress or some shit. It's not. As far as casting Inquisition and seeing nothing but lands? That isn't a failure in any game I've played.

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If your 1 mana discard has no targets you have now spent 2 cards (hymn, 1 cmc discard) to take 2 cards (2 from hymn) and have therefore lost out on potential card advantage.

Playing Hymn first then targeted discard will leave you with the best chances of taking their best cards, assuming there is a target for the 1 mana discard and both spells resolve. There is a non-zero chance that either they counter a spell or your 1 mana discard has no valid targets post hymn.

So for me, if I believe that both spells will resolve and that the targeted discard will have a target, casting Hymn to Tourach first then targeted discard is the better play. (Example your opponent goes turn 1 basic plains, mother of runes; you go turn 1 land, dark ritual, hymn, 1 cmc discard. against Death and Taxes with 5 cards in hand I assume that Inquisition of Kozilek can hit post Hymn)

However I do not believe this to be the case in most scenarios I experience with my GB Pox, so I lead with targeted discard then Hymn.

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

...if I believe that both spells will resolve and that the targeted discard will have a target, casting Hymn to Tourach first then targeted discard is the better play.

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There it is. Thanks.

Holy crap.

Why would anyone wait to cast Inquisition of Kozilek? In a vacuum (no dark ritual, or other accel), if you don't Inquisition first, you die to that Blue Moon 1 shot kill from a combo deck. (Let's say you're on the play)

The 'proper' scenario is opening turns, because everyone knows that sorcery speed Discard is useless late game. Turn 1 Inqusition, turn 2 hymn. Can someone prove to me (without using examples since enemy decks can be well, anything) why it would be better to wait till turn 3 to cast your 2 best discard spells? If you're going to cast Hymn first, you have to wait till turn 3 to cast your Inquisition. If you're alive by turn 4-5 casting discard spells that don't whiff, you're fighting a 'fair deck' and then at that point, it's anyone's game.

This is confusing lolz :laugh:

And when it comes to gathering information, Hymn does nothing really for that objective. Nothing can beat "reveal your hand". Nothing.

On the Contamination front, Akroan Horse is clunky and too expensive for the CMC. Ophiomancer, is da Godsend. Now if I can squeeze in the Dimir Machinations combo-lock, not a fan of the card disadvantage though, things could get much scarier.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Holy crap.

Why would anyone wait to cast Inquisition of Kozilek? In a vacuum (no dark ritual, or other accel), if you don't Inquisition first, you die to that Blue Moon 1 shot kill from a combo deck. (Let's say you're on the play)

The 'proper' scenario is opening turns, because everyone knows that sorcery speed Discard is useless late game. Turn 1 Inqusition, turn 2 hymn. Can someone prove to me (without using examples since enemy decks can be well, anything) why it would be better to wait till turn 3 to cast your 2 best discard spells? If you're going to cast Hymn first, you have to wait till turn 3 to cast your Inquisition. If you're alive by turn 4-5 casting discard spells that don't whiff, you're fighting a 'fair deck' and then at that point, it's anyone's game.

This is confusing lolz :laugh:

And when it comes to gathering information, Hymn does nothing really for that objective. Nothing can beat "reveal your hand". Nothing.

On the Contamination front, Akroan Horse is clunky and too expensive for the CMC. Ophiomancer, is da Godsend. Now if I can squeeze in the Dimir Machinations combo-lock, not a fan of the card disadvantage though, things could get much scarier.

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ophiomancer is also a goyf deterrent..i hate trading my mishra's factories with my opponet's goyfs when i'm on defense and sometimes need to chump block..nether spirit is good in holding down goyfs but we run very few copies of it, mostly as a 1 or 2-of..
crucible of world's is also good against goyf decks since they make your factories more resilient..

i would like to try the contamination route, are you running or have you considered running entomb as a virtual copy of nether spirit to guarantee a sac fodder? at 1-2-ofs, the spirit feels a little clunky and unreliable..
i'm still brainstorming though since i haven't tried it yet but right now i'm considering
crucible of worlds, a singleton mutavault and entomb, etc..

can you show me the list your working on right now omni?

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Holy crap.

Why would anyone wait to cast Inquisition of Kozilek? In a vacuum (no dark ritual, or other accel), if you don't Inquisition first, you die to that Blue Moon 1 shot kill from a combo deck. (Let's say you're on the play)
...
This is confusing lolz :laugh:

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It is a hypothetical question to spur a discussion on sequencing spells. The scenario is in no way encouraging waiting to play these cards it was just:

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

So you have 3 mana, a targeted discard spell, and a Hymn to Tourach, what order do you play them in?

Could depend on turn and opponent deck and handsize. But I tend to lead with the targeted discard, but I am wondering your thoughts.

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It will most likely come up on turn 1 in mono black with a dark ritual. But I could be playing my GB Pox against delver and play turn 1 Inquisition into turn 2 smallpox(which gets dazed) and then turn 3 play IoK and Hymn. I could have also had a hand with 2 hymns and no Iok and drawn IoK on turn 3.

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

i would like to try the contamination route, are you running or have you considered running entomb as a virtual copy of nether spirit to guarantee a sac fodder? at 1-2-ofs, the spirit feels a little clunky and unreliable..
i'm still brainstorming though since i haven't tried it yet but right now i'm considering
crucible of worlds, a singleton mutavault and entomb, etc..

can you show me the list your working on right now omni?

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May be clucky but it has some synergy with Crucible of Worlds, Entomb, and Ophiomancer but have you thought about Volrath's Stronghold?

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

May be clucky but it has some synergy with Crucible of Worlds, Entomb, and Ophiomancer but have you thought about Volrath's Stronghold?

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I've tested the Stronghold before with 'regular creatures'. Nether Spirit, Crucible + Manlands I've found to be less mana intensive. Neither option needs "3 mana" to use. I'd rather pump the mana into Cursed Scroll to kill my foe or snipe his top decked weenies. Nether Spirit + Manlands need no mana to come back, which is vital in a deck that blows up its own lands.

Stronghold I think would work better in a Green Splash that has giant cheap creatures like Tarmogoyf and Tempting Wurm or even a Suspended Dirkwood Baloth.

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

i would like to try the contamination route, are you running or have you considered running entomb as a virtual copy of nether spirit to guarantee a sac fodder? at 1-2-ofs, the spirit feels a little clunky and unreliable..
i'm still brainstorming though since i haven't tried it yet but right now i'm considering
crucible of worlds, a singleton mutavault and entomb, etc..

can you show me the list your working on right now omni?

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8 (Win Conditions)
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Spirit
1 Ophiomancer

8 (Discard)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

8 (Land Destruction)
4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole

9 (Pox FX )
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
1 Pox

4 (Planeswalkers)
4 Liliana of the Veil

3 (Support/Bombs)
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Dimir Machinations

20 (Mana/Land)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Snow-Covered Swamp

15 (Sideboard)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Contamination
4 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void


Very small changes here and there. Dimir Machinations can grab any and all 'bomb' cards in my deck to setup the lock AND ruin enemy top decks. Entomb only gets the Spirit which if Extirpated/Extracted, does nothing. Transmuting into Ophiomancer blanks any GY hate they have to stop my Contamination. It also counts as Pox 2-3, Liliana 5-6, Contamination 3-4, etc.

Looking back, this deck list is extremely tight. Had to sideboard the Plague and cut the Night of Souls' Betrayal. Despite me calling this Contamination Pox, it's brought out games 2 and 3 in case my enemy happens to be Mono-B, but splash decks like BUG can't function without their Green [no Abrupt Decay on the Liliana] and if you Pithing the DRS, you also stop top decked Jaces dead in their tracks.

Sinkholes and Wastelands maybe redundant but again, if they have black spells, direct land kill still helps.

only 16 lands?

There are the Mishra's too, so it makes 20 lands.

Why don't a single Contamination main deck if you are building the deck to support it?

Contamination main deck runs the risk of possibly fighting a Mono-Black deck. In which case, you've wasted slots. Granted, maybe you're in an non-black meta, but still. It's a bomb card once you know what you're fighting, but performs poorly in multiples, or you can use it as time walks if you have space to run four. The Transmutes I'm testing to deal with consistency issues. I may be able to squeeze in a 3rd one, but I'm sure Dimir Machs is better as a top deck so 1-2 should suffice.

There's actually 24 lands in the deck, Wasteland, Mishra, Urborg is 12 lands. 12 Swamps. Snow-Covered because it's sexy like that. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Contamination main deck runs the risk of possibly fighting a Mono-Black deck. In which case, you've wasted slots. Granted, maybe you're in an non-black meta, but still. It's a bomb card once you know what you're fighting, but performs poorly in multiples, or you can use it as time walks if you have space to run four. The Transmutes I'm testing to deal with consistency issues. I may be able to squeeze in a 3rd one, but I'm sure Dimir Machs is better as a top deck so 1-2 should suffice.

There's actually 24 lands in the deck, Wasteland, Mishra, Urborg is 12 lands. 12 Swamps. Snow-Covered because it's sexy like that. :laugh:

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I meant that you could put one Contamination from the side into the maindeck as a target for the transmutes: having access to Contamination game 1 can be good and a single copy shouldn't hinder too much your black matchups.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

8 (Win Conditions)
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Spirit
1 Ophiomancer

8 (Discard)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

8 (Land Destruction)
4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole

9 (Pox FX )
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
1 Pox

4 (Planeswalkers)
4 Liliana of the Veil

3 (Support/Bombs)
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Dimir Machinations

20 (Mana/Land)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Snow-Covered Swamp

15 (Sideboard)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Contamination
4 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void


Very small changes here and there. Dimir Machinations can grab any and all 'bomb' cards in my deck to setup the lock AND ruin enemy top decks. Entomb only gets the Spirit which if Extirpated/Extracted, does nothing. Transmuting into Ophiomancer blanks any GY hate they have to stop my Contamination. It also counts as Pox 2-3, Liliana 5-6, Contamination 3-4, etc.

Looking back, this deck list is extremely tight. Had to sideboard the Plague and cut the Night of Souls' Betrayal. Despite me calling this Contamination Pox, it's brought out games 2 and 3 in case my enemy happens to be Mono-B, but splash decks like BUG can't function without their Green [no Abrupt Decay on the Liliana] and if you Pithing the DRS, you also stop top decked Jaces dead in their tracks.

Sinkholes and Wastelands maybe redundant but again, if they have black spells, direct land kill still helps.

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Your list looks really good. It would be great to read about your contamination-plays.
Have you tried playing 1 Ensnaring Bridge main? Some decks cant handle it g1. (I would cut the big pox)

In your board I do miss some combo-hate (nether void, trinisphere, sphere of resistence). I would cut 2 plagues for something else. :-)

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Originally Posted by EtwasSteIne

Your list looks really good. It would be great to read about your contamination-plays.
Have you tried playing 1 Ensnaring Bridge main? Some decks cant handle it g1. (I would cut the big pox)

In your board I do miss some combo-hate (nether void, trinisphere, sphere of resistence). I would cut 2 plagues for something else. :-)

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Believe it or not, turn 1 Liliana off a Dark Ritual is all the combo hate you could possibly need. That or Inquisition Hymn off said dark ritual. I find combo hate much less necessary in the board outside weird ones like MUD ramping or Show and Tell. Ensnaring Bridge shuts off most of my own win conditions save Cursed Scroll so I'd only use it if I'm losing the creature war or Show and Tell hits and I need to stop Emrakul or Wurm Coil Engine, etc.

Contamination play is really quite simple. Stall to top deck mode, cast it when your enemy has no threats and you have a single recurring threat, and then win the game. The only real downside is Surgical Extraction or other mana-less GY hate like a weird Leyline of the Void in a non-black deck. But if Ophiomancer works in further testing, even your GY hate can't stop me. People will have to board in weird artifacts like Ratchet Bomb to function at all during an all B-mana drought.

Be advised the sideboard is for my meta, which is more mid rangy and has a few combo. Lots of token rushes to the face as well.

The mentioned Tom Ross list, which looks like legacy 8rack, is this the way to go now ? I'm new to the deck but i would like to build and play it more often. He showed that this deck can top8 in bigger tournaments

More likely he was over here looking for inspiration.

Finally I could attend in a tournament again.
Went 3-3, 35th of 58.
After a little playtesting on Saturday, I made some last minute changes to my deck, bringing 8 instead of 6 win conditions.
I wanted to try a more 'pure' pox list again. No fancy cards, just disruption and win conditions (and SDT Grin )

This is the list I played:
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Pox
3x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
2x Thoughtseize

1x Bloodghast
1x Nether Spirit

1x Cabal Pit
4x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
6x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

3x Liliana of the Veil

2x Crucible of Worlds
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x The Rack

3x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Toxic Deluge



First of all: my impressions.
The deck worked. It did exactly what it was supposed to do. Disrupting early and heavy, softlocking with Liliana and/or Crucible Wastelock and eventually finding a win condition and ending the game.
Replacing a Liliana and a Sensei's Divining Top with two The Rack was a good decision.
What did I do wrong?
Bad sideboard. I constantly didn't know what to bring in, and what to replace. I should have brought Engineered Plagues and/or NoSB, and something against Burn like Spinning Darkness or Syphon Life.
Pithing Needle was great, Ratchet Bomb did some work, the rest either never came in, or performed underwhelming.

The matches:
Match 1, BUG-Delver, 0-2
Game 1:
He starts with a Bayou into Deathrite Shaman. I look at his hand with IoK seeing Liliana, Hymn to Tourach, Sylvan Library, Force of Will and USea. Here, on my first play I make my first mistake, leading to a loss.
I take his Liliana Frown I was afraid of her, because I know what she does when I play her. My brain didn't think this through.
Next turn he plays USea into Hymn, taking my Smallpox and a land. That Smallpox was crucial. I could not keep his creatures off the board after loosing that. Tarmogoyf, Gurmag Angler and another Deathrite Shaman beat me down.

Sideboarding: Well, I'm clueless after this loss. I think I bring in Toxic Deluge and Extirpate. I was pondering about Pithing Needle for Deathrite Shaman, but didn't know what to replace. Also, I should have enough removal to handle it without Needle. +2 Toxic Deluge, +4 Extirpate, -3 Sinkhole, -1 Hymn to Tourach, -2 Toughseize (I guess)
Game 2:
I start with IoK and see Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, Delver, Wasteland, Verdant catacombs and USea (I guess he mulliganed to 6). I take the Deathrite Shaman.
I handled his Delver with an Innocent Blood, and his Goyf with a Pox. After that, he still had gas, and I didn't. Took a beating again.

Match 2, BW-Tokens, 0-2
Meh. Tokens are no fun without Engineered Plague. I did manage to keep him mana screwed, but he eventually came back both games. But at least he was fun to play against Smile
I boarded in Rathed Bomb for Pox, be he broght a Needle for Lili, that also did well against my Bombs in play -.-

Match 3, Belcher, 2-0-1
He took a while for his decision to keep his hand. I hope he doesnt have the turn 1 kill, as he is on the play. He drops his hand, counts 7 mana, and points to his Charbelcher. Meh... I put my hand on my deck... and start counting... He has 6 mana Frown He offers a draw for that game, because he miscounted. I take it and start sideboarding (which he didn't think was appropriate)
+3 Ratched Bomb, +3 Pithing Needle, -3 Sinkhole, -3 X. Can't remember. I guess it was either Crucible and a Top or Innocent Blood.
Game 2 I start with Ratched Bomb and Pithing Needle. He drops 14 Goblins on turn 1. Turn 2 they beat me to 6 life, then I drop the bomb Grin I start killing him from there.
Game 3 He doesn't have a play turn 1. I IoK and take a Seething Song. Turn 3 I drop Liliana and follow with a Pox. He doen't recover.

Match 4, RW-Painter, 2-0
Game 1
I'm on the play, ans start with IoK. I see: Goblin Welder, Painter's Servant, Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, 2 Fetchlands and something I can'd decipher because my handwriting sucks. I take his Welder.
Over to course of the game, he tries to keep a Painter in play, but fails to do so. I find Crucible, and wasteland lock him. He then tells me, he made a misplay. He could have played a Bloodmoon earlier, but played Ensnaring Bridge instead. I can't remember if that misplay was a deciding one.

Sidboard: +3 Pithing Needle, -3 Dunno. I need to start keeping track of that.
Much like game 1, but I locked him with Pithing Needle for Grindstone. Pox, Smallpox and Sinkhole keep him of off mana.

Match 5, Mono R Burn 0-2
Nothing to say here. I lose to burn preboard, and I have nothing in the sideboard. Both games where somewhat close, him being at 7 life game 1 and 4 life game 2. Spinning Darkness or Syphon Life could have made the difference.

Match 6, Esper Stoneblade, 2-0
The match that showed me Pox loves me, and I love Pox.
Both games went similar and very much how a game with Pox should go. Liliana and Sensei's Divining Top did most of the work, carrying me through the late game, and ensuring removal for his threats.
My opponent never had access to more than 3 mana, and always had to play from the top, one threat at a time.


I guess I could have played 5-1 with a better sideboard.
Overall I'm confident with my current list.
I guess Pox is a flex slot that can be any strong 3 drop thats affecting the board.
And I guess The Rack can be Cursed Scroll. I wanted to try The Rack again, because it allows using STD and playing the top deck while still dealing damage on 3 mana. They both are viable.
Bloodghast never showed itself, so it could have been a Nether Spirit.
I'm happy with the core of the list. Most hands I drew where good. I took 3 mulligans and was happy with the next 6 cards.

Sideboard should be something like this. Maybe even 1 Syphon Life main. I'd love to keep Ratched Bomb, but I can't find the space. It's faster than Engineered Plague against Goblin Tokens.
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void/Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Syphon Life