Or you could just be cool like me and run Tombstalker. :3Quote:
Originally Posted by bokwinkle
Forlorn Egoist
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Or you could just be cool like me and run Tombstalker. :3Quote:
Originally Posted by bokwinkle
Forlorn Egoist
First of all - I love tombstalker in this deck. I've played with him and absolutely love him.
Secondly - I refuse to even bring him up because bob is in the deck and noone wants to talk about playing with cards that are bad with bob - despite the fact that bob rarely draws you cards...lol.
Tombstalker is a perfectly legitimate creature to run, but I know arguing this will open up a can of worms. ^^'
As for the whole, "Bob," debate, I think it really boils down to preference. I prefer dragging things out to mid-late game with this deck, in which case Bob is a preferred option. However, in more aggro-oriented decks Sign in Blood is something I can see being used as it nets you cards upon resolution as opposed to Bob who draws you said cards 2 turns later. Also there is the conveinance of not being confined to a low mana curve so as to avoid being bolted each turn by Bob.
As for the Hawks, I'm actually intrigued by the idea of running them for aforementioned benefits, although I honestly have not playtested them nor even heard about running them until last night. I'll have to see how this plays out.
Forlorn Egoist
the primary reason I've stopped aruging against Bob is because the parenthesis at the top of the the thread (B/w Confidant) - if bob isn't in the deck it is definately no longer Deadguy Ale. There may or may not be a real deck without bob, but ultimately it is not deadguy.
Tombstalker was an absolute house though in my playtesting and there was always cards to Delve - especailly if I ran real discard isntead of sculler. But ultimately I just hate the idea of sticking bob (essentially meaning that "i'm now winning") and then taking 8 from tombstalker and putting me within lethal or outright killing me and going from winning to loosing.
*winning when I say it is meant in the typical old definition - not the Charlie Sheen version of "winning"
I've been running x4 Top/x2 Stalker and this has been working out for me thus far. Yeah, granted, taking 8 off a blind Bob sucks, but sometimes you just need to go balls-to-the-wall and risk it for the chance to drop a creature that will essentially kill them unless they can either counter it or remove it in 3 turns or less. I'm just the type of player who likes to play High Risks/High Rewards. Heck, I even spent countless hours remodling MBA/Deadguy so I could run Phyrexian Negator. LOL. But hey, my meta also has no Sligh/Zoo, and is primarily compossed of Tribal/Control (Merfolk/Land/Loam/Rock/Deadguy) so I can afford to be a little bit more risky than other people can with their list.
Forlorn Egoist
How about this? What matchups do you feel squadron hawk improves? Hes terrible against goblins, zoo, combo etc. I guess hes better in the junk matchup but meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by bokwinkle
He was very good for me against Goblins. Not so much against Combo. Basically any deck that has a limited amount of removal and doesn't play fliers... That's his job. He's there to make it so that the removal that they draw is fairly ineffective. They cycle an Incinerator to kill a Hawk.. ok, I've still got 3 more. Swords a Hawk... ok, I've still got 3 more. He's there to carry equipment, so anything that equipment is good against, he's good against. That's a surprisingly large section of the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by markbris
Tombstalker. that's an idea i could get behind...
Truthfully I play far more standard and EDH than I do Legacy, and I don't like squadron hawk in standard either...so it was a pretty hard sell for me to run them in Legacy....but for the sake of trying everything, I decided to give the hawks a test rather than theory craft them out of playability. I was surprised how many *sighs* I drew from my opponents when I played them - they're really annoying. You do have to watch for Deed and Maelstrom Pulse - but no more than if you were playing one big dude with one piece of equipment.
Generally, they are the last card in my hand that I play - so I know their selection is questionable anyway, but also I typically go from 1 card to 3 cards and my opponent knows that they have to deal with my board position AND my hand because my hand is not just a bunch of land and non-threats. It forces your opponent to think about clock and speeding up their win con, can force bad plays, and generally makes them have to consider playing things like firespout before all of my creatures are on the table...or it makes them consider holding firespout while they just sit there and die. It puts you in a situation to outplay your opponent - which IMHO is a good thing. It's a much more complex play than just laying a threat and saying "go".
As for tombstalker - like I said, the guy was an absolute house when I tested him, especially since Bob dies either the turn he comes out or the following turn. But being in a winning board state and immediately loosing to your own cards just sux.
I think we are missing some ideas that can tie Bob + Tombstalker: Innocent Blood and Sensei's Divining Top
Innocent Blood can remove a blocker and you can sack Bob (once you have tombstalker available, you should be on the downhill part of the game...) It's a way prevent Bob from killing you AND dealing with an opposing threat. Cheap way to deal with Progenitus, too. It's a Gatekeeper without the 2/2 body, but with the benefit of only costing B.
Sensei's Divining Top can also give you some great synergy, but it's obvious that there aren't that many flex spots. You can work around the 8-life loss by doing this: Top at EOT, put Tombstalker 2nd in line, get your first card for little/no lifeloss, then draw Stalker. Bingo, no 8 life loss. The same argument works for Stillmoon Cavalier, just make sure the land/cheaper mana spell is what Bob grabs and your normal draw gets the higher costed card. Junk uses this synergy to great profit. SDT isn't bad mid-late game like Vial is either...good value throughout the game. Top can make your Wastelands do double duty as mana sources rather than just LD, too.
Thoughts? Does anyone use Tops in Deadguy?
Personally, if I'm going to run Innocent blood and look for a finisher I'm going to run Abyssal Persecutor.
Tops are a possiblity, but not one I'm personally willing to run. The curve is so tight that I hate to be sinking mana into top every turn. I'd be more prone to splash green for sylvan library - but then I wouldn't need a finisher because i could just use 'Goyf. Generally, it can be done, I just feel like it makes the deck slower and takes some of the tempo away by trying to combo with a card that almost never survives more than a turn...lol. Probably the best way to run top is to run it in place of Vial (since you're already compromising the 2 CMC spot and making vial less active). Which goes from switching to a card that accellerates you to a card that slows you down...Top is just better is straight control than a tempo deck.
If we had more ways to protect Bob I'd probably give it more thought, but generally I feel like the only deck that currently supports that build is Dreadstill because of the availablity of countermagic. Just my $0.02...
So if (in your metagame) Bob only survives a turn...why risk a creature? Sign in Blood or Night's Whisper will both accomplish the same thing with the 'one turn' mentality. This allows you to support Tombstalker with a lot less risk, and also serves to get one more card in the yard to delve. *virtual shrug* just a note, take it or leave it...
Oh...it's been discussed...lol.
Also Saftey - the deck you're talking about is "the Gate" Persecutor, Bob's, innocent Blood, Top's. It's good, it's more aggro and less tempo though.
Yeah, I'm familiar with the Gate. It doesn't usually use Stalkers though, and I thought the conversation was revolving around how to use Bob + Stalker in the same deck. The whole idea IMHO with Deadguy Ale is to have the best removal (Swords, Vindicate) along with Vial-ed in bears (Sculler, Bob) with a mana-denial/disruption package (Thoughtsieze, Wasteland) and an equipment 'finisher'. Am I missing anything? I don't see how Tombstalker is a bad option in this style of deck.
The Gate is all aggro, playing some disruption (Wasteland, Thoughtseize) but with a greater emphasis on better threats, enabled by Dark Ritual. To my knowledge, I don't think the Gate uses Tops...Junk emphasizes Bob/Tops quite a bit, but if I remember right, the Gate doesn't. Am I off base?
heh, no you're on track as usual :tongue: with the exception that the gate is now starting to turn towards tops and dead-guy doesn't necessarilly run vial - Minor issues, both.
IMHO the biggest difference between the Gate and Deadguy is the inclusion of a second color and choices of finishers - other than that the decks can be extremely similar - They run Hymn and we run Tidehollow. They run Ritual and we run Vial (sometimes...lol). They run Persecutor and we run Stoneforge Mystic. We both run thoughtseize and wasteland...etc. The comparisons are there throughout.
I think when you start to step away from 2 or 3 CMC threats you grow away from deadguy and grow into a 2-color Gate as you start looking for ways to protect yourself from bob and climb away from vial. Again, just opinion.
I don't agree here, Vial in Deadguy is a newer way of playing the deck, not the typical one (no judgement from my side if its good or bad to play it). With the inclusion of Vial the way to build the deck changes and you include more utility-critter like Tidehollow instead of spells like hymn.
I for example play Bob+Top and no Vials with a slightly higher curve (ending on 4 with 2 Elspeth and 2 Abyssal) and it works pretty well for me. But my meta has really few Countertop-Players, so the need for Vials is much lower on my side. If Countertop would be a huge factor in my area, I would also tend to the Vial-List.
i don't really play this deck that much in legacy anymore... here are my thoughts.
@hawk: it isn't pay 2 draw 3, it's pay two potentially search your library for overcosted 1/1s. when i played this deck i had found the deck to be too reliant of the equipments. if you're not splashing a third color look at all your creatures. they can create tempo for you, but it's very hard to capitalize on their loss of tempo because you don't have many fatties. if hawk was a 1/1 for 2 flying that said draw three cards or draw two cards, i would play him. He would be so nuts.
i like top in these lists. people see top as being clunky and expensive. It's virtual CA. It turns dead late game topdecked seizes into something else.
Bob stalker comes down to personal preference. I wouldn't be comfortable with running them together at least at the moment, if you do that's really good. Together they are amazing.
looks like we got safety on this thread now too! Yes!
I got hooked in when I saw Bokwinkle had put up some cool comments.
@Leto: seeing Aether Vial only as a way to play around Counterbalance is just flat out ridiculous. Vial is one of the best tempo engines in the history of magic, regardless of opposing countermagic/control. Deadguy sits on a creature curve of 2 mana (essentially bears, some hatebears, some utility bears like Mystic/Bob). So what can Vial do for this deck? Put threats/control into the game for free, allowing your mana to be open for disruption/control. How awesome does it feel to Vial in Tidehollow Sculler, rob their removal, and still have 2 mana open to play Bob (and most likely KEEP Bob!!!)????? Yep, absurd. It takes a dedicated turn 1-2 Vial to pull off...but you can use early game Wastelands to get Vial into play. Popping Wasteland turn 1 isn't always a good play (in fact, I think it's HARDLY EVER a good play) because you are only re-setting the game state back to turn 1. If you can get Vial turn 1, then pop off Wasteland turn 2, you are now advancing your game while stifling your opponents. Goblins do it, Merfolk do it, hell it's just GOOD PLAY.
Concering Sensei's Divining Top...I would only play Bob + Stalker with Tops. Sample list (pick it apart, please!)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Serra Avenger
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Tombstalker
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Thoughtsieze
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
2-4x Alternate Fetchlands
4x Wasteland
1-3x Mutavault/Mishra's Factory
Swamp/Plains to get to 21 lands
The slots that I see as questionable right now are probably the Mutavaults (but with an emphasis on Vial for dudes and Top for filtering, you could allow more colorless lands). It's also questionable whether or not 4 targeted discards is enough...I think I'd feel more comfortable with 5-6, so Sculler is supported more. I also feel like Stillmoon Cavalier could work in this list, but dammit, there's just NO ROOM, lol. Serra Avenger is still superior, simply because you get a 3/3 flyer for 2 mana. I think it's a metagame call, but Stillmoon has so much promise with the built in protection. Putting on a Sword of Fire and Ice makes the guy impervious to spot removal, unblockable, and lets be honest, just a fucking house.
IMO Tombstalker doesn't fit very well into the Vial'd version simply because you don't Vial it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I agree with your assessment of Aether Vial, it's acceleration, countermagic dodging and combat tricks. Speaking of which - perhaps it's time to make a new thread, entitled BW Tempo, for the version with Vial and Mystic package? The deck has changed a lot since 2005, and a new thread is always a catalyst for discussion, and a means to bring together experience from playtesting and tournament results.