Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ManCharm
The Jitte is mostly a 'cute' idea, was just seeing if anyone else tried it. I'd say the lack of creature threats make it a questionable choice. Spell Snare is super good against current popular decks that are less favorable matchups (miracles, shardless, competent storm pilots, etc), but the 2 felt a little dense, I'll test it a bit more though. Soft permission is not where this deck wants to be right now.
Thank you btw, 3 years of losing win-and-ins with TES got me a little fed up :p
I usually lose just before a win-and-in, so I don't usually have that problem. :laugh: (13th is the best I got, in Houston earlier this year.)
I think Jitte is probably an alright card, I've never actually tried it though. One thing I like about the idea, at least, in theory, is that it allows you to more effectively single-threat a deck like Miracles. Other than that, it can kind of swing a mid-range matchup, at least a little, since it makes your Goyfs much better than theirs. I guess the biggest issue is that most of the decks you'd want it versus run Decay, which is pretty bad for paying :4: to play and equip it only to have it blown up.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
I usually lose just before a win-and-in, so I don't usually have that problem. :laugh: (13th is the best I got, in Houston earlier this year.)
I think Jitte is probably an alright card, I've never actually tried it though. One thing I like about the idea, at least, in theory, is that it allows you to more effectively single-threat a deck like Miracles. Other than that, it can kind of swing a mid-range matchup, at least a little, since it makes your Goyfs much better than theirs. I guess the biggest issue is that most of the decks you'd want it versus run Decay, which is pretty bad for paying :4: to play and equip it only to have it blown up.
I played down there earlier this year, lost my win and in with TES. lol. My buddy Dustin won with TES tho so it wasn't all bad.
Jitte would be good against legend miracles, but ponder miracles/mentor miracles would be really bad for Jitte. I'm debating between
Spell Snare
Dimir Charm
Envelop
True-Name Nemesis
Liliana of the Veil
Maelstrom Pulse
Umezawa's Jitte
and any other good ideas. Envelop is probably the best of those, because the only decks I sat down and got sad against were Shardless and Sneak and Show
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ManCharm
I played down there earlier this year, lost my win and in with TES. lol. My buddy Dustin won with TES tho so it wasn't all bad.
Jitte would be good against legend miracles, but ponder miracles/mentor miracles would be really bad for Jitte. I'm debating between
Spell Snare
Dimir Charm
Envelop
True-Name Nemesis
Liliana of the Veil
Maelstrom Pulse
Umezawa's Jitte
and any other good ideas. Envelop is probably the best of those, because the only decks I sat down and got sad against were Shardless and Sneak and Show
Dustin from Louisiana? He's a friend of mine, he won in Dallas though, not Houston (I know this because I rode there with him, haha).
Either way, I don't see Jitte being that bad versus any of the Miracles builds though, but this is more because I don't play the sort of game you are supposed to versus them. I only ever single-creature threat them, since I don't give them the satisfaction of Terminusing multiple creatures at once.
I think Evelop is really good, I've even run Dimir Charm from time to time and while it's not very efficient, it can be a removal spell for opposing Deathrite and a counter for Entreat/Terminus.
Right now I am very much on the fence about if I want to run Delver or Shardless. I have an IQ coming up next weekend, so I need to decide fast...
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Dustin from Louisiana? He's a friend of mine, he won in Dallas though, not Houston (I know this because I rode there with him, haha).
Either way, I don't see Jitte being that bad versus any of the Miracles builds though, but this is more because I don't play the sort of game you are supposed to versus them. I only ever single-creature threat them, since I don't give them the satisfaction of Terminusing multiple creatures at once.
I think Evelop is really good, I've even run Dimir Charm from time to time and while it's not very efficient, it can be a removal spell for opposing Deathrite and a counter for Entreat/Terminus.
Right now I am very much on the fence about if I want to run Delver or Shardless. I have an IQ coming up next weekend, so I need to decide fast...
Yeah, Dallas was the one I went to then :p somewhere in Texas I played a magic once.
Snare shares a lot of value with Envelop, including Death an Taxes, which is a rough matchup. So it's a big meta call.
Shardless if you're expecting a lot of miracles, and Delver if you're expecting a lot of combo, imo
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ahtii
Went 5-2 (14/109) yesterday with this list
Based on your location, I guess you were participating to the Finnish Legacy Championships? :)
I was there too with a BUG Delver. I was at 3-1 at some point but collapsed to a miserable 3-4 result..
My list:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dread of Night
1 Sylvan Library
R1: 2-0 vs RUG delver
g1: He bolts my creatures, I decay his. I manage to land TNN and he can't do anything to it.
sideboarding: -2 Daze, -2 Hymn, +2 Disfigure, +Jitte, +Lib
g2: I start with UG Sea into DRS. He bolts it, wastes my UG sea and then surgicals it! Luckily his hand was otherwise very greedy, he is stuck with only one land for several turns. I slowly ponder my way back to game with just one tropical and bayous. I land Liliana and I think I even ultimate her once, destroying only one land. He just wasn't able to find any creatures. First TNN gets pyroblasted, second resolves. Opponent scoops when I play Jitte.
1-0
R2: 2-0 vs 12post (Friend of mine. Fun to travel through whole country to play with your friends :)
g1: Turn 2 TNN is a nice clock! At some opponent is at 4 life, has Needle which named DRS, and a Glacial Chasm so I can't attack. I have TNN, DRS and 3 lands in play, Abrupt decay in my hand. I pass turn. On his upkeep, he pays 2 life to keep the Chasm on the table. Before moving to his draw step, I Decay the Needle and eat a sorcery with my DRS. GG.
sideboarding: -4 Daze, +Null Rod, +KGrip, +Surgical, +Clique
g2: I know this matchup is decided on the early turns: if you let 12post be alone for the first rounds, you cant do anything to it later on. So I decide to wasteland his first post. Which ends up earning me the victory. He never gets into the game and my Hymn rips 2 Prime Times from his hand.
2-0
R3: 0-2 vs RUG delver
g1: RUG delver game at its finest. Lightning bolts, delvers, stifles, wastelands..
sideboarding: -4 FoW, +2 Disfigure, +Jitte, +Lib
g2: We trade lots of resources, but he has the untouchable Mongoose. At some point I am able to resolve Sylvan Library and think for a moment that I might be in this game. I get to resolve Tarmogoyf and even get a Jitte equipped. He has unflipped Delver, 3/3 Mongoose and a Tarmo. I decide to attack with my Jitted Tarmo. He instantly blocks with Mongoose and Tarmo. I manage to kill both with Jitte activations and Disfigure. Next turn he plays 2 more delvers and says they are all gonna flip next turn. And so they do. After the game I thought that maybe I attacked too hastily with Tarmogoyf, but I guess there was not much else to do in the situation.
2-1 (it is not over yet!)
R4: 2-0 vs RUG delver (cmon, 3rd one today!)
g1: We trade resources, his delver does not flip in 5 turns, my TNN resolves.
sideboarding: -2 Daze, -2 Hymn, +2 Disfigure, +Jitte, +Lib
g2: We have a tight race at the end, he bashes me with his Mongoose while I do the same to him with my TNN. I FoW his Brainstorm which would have given him Lightning Bolt, phew!
3-1
R5: 0-2 vs OmniTell (another friend of mine! Sad games, as the loser is out of top8 after this. I feel confident because this is a good matchup for me.)
g1: I have a slow clock. I decide to aggressively FoW a Brainstorm cause he has a fetchland in play. Next turn I try to resolve Liliana which he has FoW as an answer. Later on he FoWs my FoW which tried to counter his Intuition. Intuition finds SnT and he cheats the spaghetti monster into play. I am not able to Ponder into my second Liliana.
sideboarding: -2 TNN, -4 Abrupt Decay, +2 Spell pierce, +1 Clique, +1 KGrip, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Surgical
g2: I have to mulligan and keep a mediocre hand which has KGrip. Two 2/3 Tarmogoyfs beat him for a while. Opponent has Island and two Boseijus in play. He has not played a single cantrip. I have 4 lands untapped, KGrip+SPierce+Daze in hand. He casts SnT which I cant do anything about, shows Omniscience. I am waiting for him to pass the priority so I can KGrip it. He does not pass it until he casts the Emrakul. Good night..
I saw 0 Hymns during these two games.
3-2
I feel a bit disappointed at this point, but you get to play in this event only once a year, so lets play then!
R6: 1-2 vs Reanimator
g1: I know he is on reanimator and I keep a fast hand with T1 Delver, into Dazing his T1 cantrip, into wasting 3 of his lands. I even take a risk and Hymn him, which rips Reanimate and Exhume from his hand. This game ends fast.
sideboarding: -4 Hymn, -2 TNN, +Clique, +Cage, +Surgical, +Library, +2 SPierce
g2: He plays only land on his first turn. I start with Tropical into DRS. He casts Careful Study on his second turn. Would you have countered this? I have a FoW but decide not to use it. He discards Griselbrand and Sphinx of the Steel Wind, omfg. Ok, I have a FoW and active DRS, so I should be fine, right? On his next turn he casts Exhume, I FoW, he FoWs back. I decide to eat the Griselbrand in response. Sphinx starts to eat my life total and I am not able to cantrip into Liliana.
g3: Long game, I am able to resolve Grafdigger's Cage. He gets the game by Show and Telling Griselbrand into game.
3-3
Second good matchup in a row and I lost. I guess this is Magic, sometimes they have it and you don't.
R7: 0-2 vs Elves
g1: I have no idea what he is playing, so I keep a mediocre hand with T1 Delver and T2 Hymn. He fetches a basic forest and plays a Quirion Ranger. I know instantly that I am probably dead meat. Desperate Daze, Hymn and Abrupt Decay is not enough to stop the inevitable forces of Llanowar.
sideboarding: -4 Daze, -Bayou, -2 Hymn, +2 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 SPierce, +1 Jitte (Yes, I did not side in the Grafdigger's Cage even it was put into the side because of fear of Elves and GY strategies.. dunno how this happened.)
g2: Delver and Tarmogoyf beats him to a quite low life while I try to keep his elves out of the board with well drawn Decays and Disfigures. I am one turn from getting him down when he manages to hard cast the Hoof with couple of elves on board.
3-4
Having the Elves deck myself, I know how easy matchup the BUG strategies usually are for them. We need to be very lucky and draw our sweepers in time.
Other than the bad luck with my draws (and maybe bad decisions?) in the two combo matches, the list felt really good.
TNN was definitely the MVP for me in this event. I have usually played Dark Confidant in his place, but I was expecting lots of Miracles and DnT for this event, so I decided to go with TNN. Luckily he also helps with the RUG delver matches, it seems. :)
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
meite
Based on your location, I guess you were participating to the Finnish Legacy Championships? :)
Yea it was Finnish Legacy Champs.
Dark Confidant was really good for me. I also think its great against d&t , miracles and Shardless. I just dont like TNN in the deck with double bayou.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
Painful Truths has been working out quite well for me.
I am running it in a fairly stock list that has 13 creatures, 20 lands, Hymn.
I think the right number to run MD is probably going to end up being 2 copies, but to get a better sense of what it accomplishes in test games I increased the number to 3. I moved my usual singleton copy of Sylvan Library to the board, though normally that's been really good in the MD against the numerous Swords to Plowshares decks out there.
Truths further solidifies TA's midrange power. Resolving it feels a lot like playing
Treasure Cruise except that your opponent doesn't have access to TC themselves. Drawing 3 cards, even at the cost of 3 life is good at all points of the game (late-game Burn matchups aside), whether you're ahead or trying to catch up. I'll admit that it's weaker than Cruise in that it doesn't typically allow you to play as many of the drawn cards right away, but with access to FoW and Daze and a fair amount of 1-drops that's not typically a huge problem.
I definitely expect to see this card showing up more frequently in Tier 1 deck lists, though I don't think it'd end up being anywhere near as format-warping as the Delve spells were.
I think I'm being very stupid about painful truths as I just don't get how it could be that good. I haven't tested it at all though, and a number of people do say it's good in a variety of decks so it's obviously something I'm missing the point on.
When you're having to spend 3 different colours of mana to get the best out of painful truths, wouldn't the easier to cast (and also not a good card) read the bones be just as useful?
Like I said I've not tested the card, so it may play out much better than I can envision
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
and3h
I think I'm being very stupid about painful truths as I just don't get how it could be that good. I haven't tested it at all though, and a number of people do say it's good in a variety of decks so it's obviously something I'm missing the point on.
When you're having to spend 3 different colours of mana to get the best out of painful truths, wouldn't the easier to cast (and also not a good card) read the bones be just as useful?
Like I said I've not tested the card, so it may play out much better than I can envision
Read the Bones draws only 2 cards. While it's certainly arguable that Scrying 2 is worth a card or perhaps at least half a card, in terms of raw card advantage the difference between 2-for-1 and 3-for-1 is significant. At the minimum, this might draw you an extra Blue spell to pitch to Force of Will.
The most comparable card to Truths in recent times is Treasure Cruise. Truths actually has a few minor advantages over Cruise:
1. it's Black, and thus not a Pyro/REB target.
2. it will always cost 3 and only 3, regardless of graveyard status -- which typically means it could be cast on turn 2 (with DRS) or turn 3 more frequently.
3. multiple copies can be more easily chained over multiple turns since Delving is not a requirement.
4. it doesn't really require much 'build around' considerations, whereas Cruise was most broken in a deck like URx with Gitaxian Probe
The most convincing argument would be for you to test the card yourself and see how it performs. I find that it does a fantastic job of refueling in the mid-game, leading to TA drowning the opponent in card advantage.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
I'm rather skeptical of a three mana, sorcery speed draw three, but a playset was cheap enough, so I'll try it out in a couple weeks.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
My suspicion is that it's best in the heavy black Bayou builds.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
My suspicion is that it's best in the heavy black Bayou builds.
Yes, I am running a 4/2/1 split of Sea/Bayou/Trop, and also 4 Waste and 9 Fetch for 20 lands total. With DRS, casting the card for 3 has been easy/consistent.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
My scepticism was mainly coming from wondering how consistently you could be casting it with 3 different coloured mana sources. Now that I know we're running a very similar mana base I'll certainly give it a try.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
I tried Painful Truths as a 1-of at my store's weekly, and found it to be extremely good against decks where your life total doesn't matter that much (duh). I cast it twice in 2 games against a Miracles player, and I wish I could somehow play 4 in the deck against that matchup. To be fair, I tried running 4c Delver this week as well, so my findings were a bit biased.
To other people testing it, how many are you running? I kind of want to bump my count up to 2, but then you get to the hard decision of what to cut to make room.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tantarus
What do people think about this list/sideboard?
I'm not a fan of Leyline in this deck.
1. It requires 4 slots -- a significant commitment for an archetype you might not even face in a moderately-sized tournament.
2. It typically requires mulligans, and there's no guarantee that the new hand is playable (e.g. no lands -- do you still keep it?)
3. This deck can struggle to hit 4 mana in a meaningful timeframe. So if they remove it, additional copies are difficult to deploy before the opponent accomplishes their goals.
4. We run 4 DRS in the main deck. A split of Surgical Extraction and Grafdigger's Cage seems to work better alongside them and affects a wider swath of the metagame (e.g. Elves, Past in Flames, Punishing Fire/Loam, etc.). These cards also have the advantage of being deployable *after* turn 1, so you can keep an otherwise strong hand with a number of cantrips in the hopes of finding your SB cards.
5. To go along with the above point, Leyline requires all 4 slots to be brought in. Whereas 2 copies of Cage could be brought in against Elves, and the 2 Surgical Extractions could be left in the SB.
Outside of a local metagame where you *know* you are going to run into some graveyard decks, LotV is not a card I would want to be running in modern BUG Delver. It works well in a deck like UBr Tezzerator, because it also doubles as half of a win condition (with Helm of Obedience), but here it seems like a waste of 4 slots.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tantarus
I have yet to lose against Reanimator or Dredge with 1x Cage 1x Extraction on side.
I really don't see why we would want to double the amount of grave hate slots.
The Confidants on side look good against Miracles and other grindy matches.
I don't like the lack of sweepers though. Death&Taxes and Elves can be very hard to beat.
Stuff like Charm, Deluge or Marsh Casualties make our life a lot easier against them.
Lastly I don't think I'll ever run less than 3x Envelop/Fluster/Pierce on side.
I always like to have more blue to fight the large amount of Combo here in the Netherlands.
Those are my thoughts. :cool:
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
I agree with Asthereal - I wouldn't run fewer than 3 pieces of additional hand/stack interaction in the board, and I'm not in love with Leyline in a Delver shell (in a control or Shardless shell, however, I do like it). I'm on 2 Flusterstorm/1 Thoughtseize, though there's an argument for turning a Flusterstorm into Envelop.
To change topics: I've tested both additional Dark Confidants (1-3 SB + 1-2 MD) and Painful Truths and I'm not sure which is better, though I'm leaning Bob so far. BUG to draw 3 at Sorcery speed is a lot to invest even if we are drawing three cards, and it doesn't impact the board at all, whereas Dark Confidant's 2/1 body is often relevant. In contrast, I've found Truths better in a BUG Comtrol shell. I feel like this might end up being like Thoughtseize vs. Hymn, where both are always good, but the more controlling shell is going to prefer one of thse and the more aggressive shell prefers the other. Has anyone had similar experiences?
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Alright, so I decided to buy into this deck. What do you guys think of my initial list?
Creatures (16)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
Sorceries (4)
4 Ponder
Instants (22)
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
Lands (18)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
2 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chaam
Alright, so I decided to buy into this deck. What do you guys think of my initial list?
Creatures (16)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
Sorceries (4)
4 Ponder
Instants (22)
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
Lands (18)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
2 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
3 bobs should suffice.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Hello everyone!
Been playing mostly Nicfit in different variations. and been playing legacy for a year now. Been gathering up cards for a BUG Delver list!
I still need help with my 75, specially the sideboard! =)
Thoughts?
CREATURES (14)
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
SORCERIES (9)
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
INSTANTS (18)
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure (one enough and go for a sylvan or liliana instead?)
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
LANDS (19) (i only own 2 trops and no mistys yet)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
Sideboard: (I dont own flusterstorm, vendilion or snappy)
1 Murderous Cut
1 Golgari Charm (i dont own marsh casualties but am aware of the non match with true name)
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pithing Needle (worth it for wastland decks?)
1 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
Cheers and thanks in advance!
