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@Leshrac82: Those results sound more logical, especially vs. Storm. There's a world of difference between playing vs. a novice TES/ANT pilot (someone who's just trying the deck out on xmage) and playing vs. someone who's been piloting the deck for years (and hence invested in it on Magic Online). Sucks man, but welcome to our world. You're a Nic Fit-er now :laugh:.
Unfortunately at my LGS I only tend to run into the latter, lol.
Some late night musings based on some testing I did today with my white Traverse list:
Palace Jailer is very impressive. I was testing vs UW Blade, and I was able to outgrind them and frequently ended the game with something like half of the deck size that they had. I think that the draw effect being mana-free is actually rather important.
Tracker is a good card, certainly, and there are matchups (and just games, even) where he 100% runs away by himself. But he's also slow and expensive. He overperforms in Leshrac's list because of Cloudpost mana, but other versions don't have that luxury.
Not having Top to lean on has made me rethink a lot of the structural theory of Nic Fit. For example: why is Green Sun's Zenith so amazing for us?
-) It's mana early and a threat late
-) It's a great topdeck
-) It's a tutor, finding a specific bullet to solve a problem
This is one of the things that has me so hyped about Traverse -- it's essentially Zeniths 5-8, since it fulfills the same checkboxes as the above. If we can't have the filtering of Top, having 8 tutors to rip off the top is pretty much the next best thing. Furthermore, they let us use our mana efficiently. If we're flooded, we can just get a bigger / better thing -- they scale with our situation. This is also why Ballista has been so impressive to me: it scales with our board and fills whatever role we need it to fill.
I think that Jailer is on the right track for the type of card draw we need: defensive draw, with no mana cost attached beyond the initial payment. The only other things I can think of that draw cards without consuming mana are Phyrexian Arena (meh) and Ob Nixilis Reignited (also meh but maybe slightly less meh?). Nissa Vital Force's ult is a lot easier to get off than people give it credit for, but it's also pretty slow. Chandra Torch is filling much the same role in Jund, and Brael has been using Bob for this purpose for quite some time. I'm not sure what other "free" draw there is, but I think that it's the way we need to look for. We just flat out can't afford the tempo hit of Night's Whisper or Painful Truths -- we need more incremental sources, preferably those that help keep us alive along the way (like Jailer).
Somebody might want to consider looking into an explosive BUG list with Crop Rotations and multiple Jaces. Some kind of turbo Jace build might be hype, since he's still one of the absolute masters of that type of game -- maximizing the number of turn two Jace lines would fix some of our problems with him historically, I think. Once we get him out and untap with him, we can probably protect him pretty well. It's just a matter of getting him out before we're massively behind on board. Ponder might be better than Brainstorm in a blue build. That sounds like heresy, but I'm not sure. Ponder is a much better topdeck, and no matter how bulky our card flow package, we're still going to end up topdecking a fair amount of the time just by virtue of being a ramp core.
Are there any other playable Monarch cards? Might be worth looking into.
I'm not sure how to revitalize Jund versions at this point. Chandra and Kommand definitely helps, but they're also definitely not enough. We might just flat out need to look into Bloodbraid at this point and acknowledge the fact that some % of the time it's just going to suck. Is there a reasonably costed killspell in jund that cantrips? That seems like something we would want...like 1br kill a thing draw a card.
I dunno. I'm tired now. Just wanted to idea vomit a little in the hopes that some of it might be useful down the road.
The BUG Fit List I was thinking was more like this:
4 Veteran
2 DRS
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold
1 Trygon Predator (bringing sexy back...)
1 Thragtusk
1 Tracker (Tireless, but I still have love for Ulvenwald).
1 New 4GG Dinosaur guy (damn, I want me some Baleful Strix but what room? :/ . )
2 Jace, TMS
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Fatal Push
2 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
1 Painful Truths
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal THerapy
20/21 Lands (6 Basics, 8 Fetches, 2 Strongholds, 5 Duals)
//Board
2 Abrupt Decay (kill all the things)
2 Null Rod (Combo/Lands/Equipment)
3 Flusterstorm (Combo)
3 Surgical Extraction (GY)
2 Thoughtseize (Combo)
3 Back to Basics (Fuckin' 4C pile, plus I have 3 Korean ones, so...)
I'd love to run more shenanigans like Recurring Nightmare and stuff, and I also want more value. Maybe a Master of the Wild Hunt? Deranged Hermit to plug up the board?
@Arianrhod: Brael did a lot of work w/ Dark Confidant, which also plays well w/ stuff like Walking Ballista. As for (potential) CA creatures I've been dabbling with:
- Tireless Tracker: As you said, can steal games but takes a lot of mana
- Courser of Kruphix: Conditional CA. Even skimming off a land from the top of your library means you're one turn closer to drawing what you need. Works very well w/ manipulation like Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library. Even without further manipulation it helps you time your shuffle effects, which can be the difference between life and death. Creates a neat little loop w/ the two Towers & Dryad Arbor
- Meren of Clan Nel Toth: Conditional CA. Sucks vs. GY hate, sucks in the early game, can be an absolute beast in the late game.
- Vizier of the Menagerie: Conditional CA, probably worst of the bunch. Can be useful in an extremely creature heavy list. Has the same other benefits as Courser.
- Eternal Witness: In multiples. Can be awesome and backbreaking, can be mediocre.
There is also Custodi Lich that is amazing.
5 CMC is a lot but its effect is far more powerful than Palace if you ask me.
Ob Nixilis Reignited doesn't kill TNN which do not place him well in the current meta. If you do not expect a lot of TNN, he does a great job for a relatively low cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
After a long time not playing Nic Fit at all (I played Scapeshift/Wish Nic Fit a few years ago), here is my current test list of Nyx Fit:
// 11 Creature
4 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons - will switch to the new 7/6 MVP dinosaur
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Innocent Blood
// 13 Enchantment
4 Cast Out
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Overwhelming Splendor
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sandwurm Convergence
// 22 Land
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Dovescape
SB: 2 Ground Seal
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
It's a work in progress:
1. I saw lists with Evolutionary Leap but I didn't like it. I would play Diabolic Intent or more Innocent Blood, seems more efficient.
2. 4 Castout should be a good compromise because you can always cycle it and it's a good answer to planeswalkers.
I'm just not sure on the numbers of cheap removal or if I got too few right now...maybe Delver matchups etc. suffer from only 2 Blood 2 Brutality?
3. I wanted a maindeck card for the Storm matchup and chose: Leyline of Sanctity, got some utility vs. discard, direct damage and Liliana + is cheaper than something like Dovescape. Can be trashed with Collective Brutality.
4. Do you think I'm missing out on Lingering Souls and it's a mistake not to run them?
5. What's your experience with Cruel Reality? Where or in which matchups is it most useful? Should I cut it for a cheaper interactive spell maybe?
Sideboard:
6. Ground Seals are mainly for 4C Control, Reanimator, Lands which make up a large part of current Legacy. It's a solid cantripping hate card. To beat Reanimator, of course I have the Leylines as well.
7. Hymn to Tourach and Sylvan Library mainly to grind out Control decks. Do you prefer Palace Jailer?
I'd really like to get this relatively competitive, although I'm not worried as a long-time Lands player.
1. Leap is both a way of finding Rector and a way of sacrificing him in a single card, which is pretty relevant. Intent either finds him or sacrifices him, but not both. Intent also 2-for-1s you if it gets countered, whereas Leap does not. If you get good results with Intent do let us know, but I've never found it very effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexeezay
2. I am not fond of Cast Out. The only planeswalker we really care about is JTMS, and even there a single resolved Rector trigger probably wins us the game anyway, so I don't know if Cast Out is really necessary - if you can resolve a 4 mana spell I would rather have a Rector. I would run some number of Swords to Plowshares before Cast Out or Innocent Blood - being both cheap and instant is great. I like Swords/Brutality for primary removal, with some number of Decay, Deed and Deluge. If you want more answers to planeswalkers I would run To The Slaughter in that slot.
3. Dovescape is a hardlock with Curse of Death's Hold, and against a lot of decks in the format. I also don't think you need both Cruel Reality and Sandwurm Convergence, since they both do very similar things. Personally, I'd cut the Starfield, Convergence and Leyline and add a Dovescape. Leyline does work okay, but it doesn't stop your opponent from cantripping / going off and then finding a bounce spell, where Dovescape does. Dovescape also locks out Omnitell, which you don't really have anything against.
4. You definitely want Souls if you are playing Leap. Without Evolutionary Leap, it's a lot less good and I wouldn't bother unless I had some other major payoff for having lots of small creatures. It does make for an excellent speedbump and hate for control decks, though.
5. Cruel Reality is there as a Rector target that deals with a resolved Jace. It also gives us something we can find with Rector which can actually kill the opponent, which is quite handy too. If we fetched something like Cast Out, we'd have traded even with the opponent's planeswalker but we haven't actually put ourselves in control of the board. CReality puts us at the advantage when it comes to dealing with their boardstate.
6. Ground Seal also protects our own Rectors from Deathrite and Surgical Extraction.
7. I play Library in the main, but don't feel Hymn is very good. I'd rather play more discard (though you run Thoughtseize maindeck). Personally the sideboard I run is 3 Leyline Void / 2 Ethersworn Canonist / 2 Toxic Deluge / 2 Lost Legacy / 2 Leyline Sanctity / 2 Thoughtseize / 2 Ground Seal. The deck already has a pretty reasonable control matchup (since they often cant' deal with big enchantments, especially dovescape) and I have a Cavern of Souls in the main to help too. If I was spending slots on it (beyond Ground Seal) I would probably remove a Leyline of Sanctity for a Starfield.
Also keep in mind that while Evo Leap is both a way to find AND sacrifice Rector, it is also a way to do so at instant speed to help play around opponent's mainphase discard or things like Deathrite activations. Evo Leaping Rector for Dovescape has been my favorite line of play recently.
Regarding Palace Jailer - I played him for a bit in Soldier Stompy and in the right circumstances he is an absolute house. Makes me wonder if there could be a Jailer-oriented Junk list. Souls does a fine job blocking or getting in damage while you outdraw the opponent. Or go 4c with Baleful Strixes to help hold down the fort. Something something combat walkers such as Elspeth? Or stick to Rhinos? Sounds like the sort of deck I'd have 1-2 Deluge main to help deal with TNN - that or Zealous Persecution.
1) Quote Navsi: Now that top has been banned, Leap is the only good way left to reach the consistency we need. Intent is not even similar as power level and functionality
2) I play 1 Cast out to have a catch-all, but that's it. If you want to play a slighty different deck, with Replenish for example, more Cast Out are obv
3) Yeah, there's nothing like Dovescape. With leap it's often my first target after have sac a rector, because it close the possibility of dealing with our plan for good. I don't play Curse/Giant, anyway, and since the top ban i don't want to do it again. We simply don't need it, and we have always better targets.
4) Yeah, Lingering is very good but without leap (that i consider a very wrong choice, as said) they could be cut, probably.
6) I've never tried Ground Seal but i've thought a lot about it: is it really usefull against midrange/tempo decks?
Anyway, i leave my list too here. I'm testing scroll rack instead of Library, and i strongly think that Convergence>>>Cruel Reality
// 60 Mazzo
// 2 Artifact
2 Scroll Rack
// 10 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector
1 Dryad Arbor
// 12 Enchantment
3 Sterling Grove
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Evolutionary Leap
1 Dovescape
1 Sandwurm Convergence
1 Cast Out
1 Overwhelming Splendor
// 22 Land
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cavern of Souls
// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Collective Brutality (too perfect for this deck, too many good options)
4 Lingering Souls
// 15 Sideboard
// 7 Enchantment
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red (Metacall)
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Ground Seal (testing)
// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares (Not sure)
// 6 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Lost Legacy
As you can see, i run very few big ench for targets and i never lost a game for not having the right one
I mean, Ishkanah does one HELL of a job at making sure you stay the Monarch.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
Something of note, while we're on the subject: I did a little Gatherer digging this morning, and there is a card called Regal Behemoth that exists. It's a 6-mana green idiot that causes you to become the monarch on ETB, as well as having the line of text that whenever you tap a land for mana, add a mana of any color to your pool. I'm not entirely sure that this is relevant, but being a GSZable monarch enabler is notable, I think. I'm mostly thinking of a BUG shell here, since that would let you theoretically play him while holding up protection(counterspell) off 1 land. Very likely not better than Carnage or Bellower, but, who knows.
I'm not sure Custodi Lich is better than Jailer, just due to the extra point of cmc. It's definitely good to know that Lich exists, though, which I did not previously. Seems like it could be relevant in Jund or BUG depending on if there's a way to tutor him in the list (probably Traverse or Pod).
Custodi Lich usually stalls the board if not removed because:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
- 1) its effect is permanent
- 2) its effect will trigger again each time you become the Monarch.
Ishkanah is really nice.
Here is my last Jund's iteration (everything isn't perfect yet to my taste but the deck is solid):
Punishing T. Fit
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga
1 Wasteland
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Custodi Lich
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pulse of Murasa
3 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Lost Legacy
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Slingers
SB: 1 Ramunap Excavator
SB: 2 XXX
I'm still pondering if I stick with Ishkanah or not. The new Qasali cat is very interesting as it offers 2 useful effects: a way to block flying creatures + sage's effect. It will free up a slot in SB.
The rest is pretty straight forward.
Crop rotation will give you access to some broken T2 while being good in numerous MUs (tutoring what you need).
the lone wasteland is to have an out against decks that tend to go over us. Ramunap post board is icy on the cake.
New Qasali cat?
Qasali Slingers. It's in the sideboard - 3/5 Reach Reclamation Sage for 4G.
To improve the Delver and D&T/artifact based decks MUs?
With the exception of Vizier, I play all of the above in my build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
4 Bob
4 Tracker
1 Courser
1 Meren
1 Eternal Witness
If we're considering Palace Jailer, I think there's a better option: Ranger of Eos. It's easier to cast and a bigger body at the same CMC. It provides cards faster, and it provides specific cards which is better than a random card. Endless One, Sylvan Safekeeper, Deathrite Shaman, and Walking Ballista all make for excellent tutor targets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I agree with you both. Tracker is stellar in BUG fit compared to other variants I have played say Rhino Fit and Sneaky FitQuote:
Originally Posted by crush
That is exactly what I did for my paper games, Forces for more Threats and 1 TSQuote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
:laugh: Why did I not think of placing many counters on a resolved TNN via G hulk. And wow 4 DRS! :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Ponder is indeed better than Brainstorm pound for pound as Ponder lets you look at maximum of 4 cards compared to the 3 of Brainstorm. Not to mention Brainstorm will "brainstorm lock" you without a shuffle effect. Contention of Brainstorm VS Ponder should ultimately boil down to the deck construction and pilot preferred playstyle. The more fetchlands and shuffle effects = Brainstorm better and vice versa. I remember reading somewhere when you have 12 or more shuffle effects in your deck, Brainstorm's power spikes quite hard. I personally play 12 (8 Fetchlands, 3 GSZ and 1 Nissa Vastwood Seer). However even with a lot more shuffle effects, Ponder always come up better if you are just looking for specific cards as it digs 4 cards deep. I believe Ponder suits you more Kevin as you tend to play a more controlling style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
@Memories of the Time: Can you elaborate on Sterling Grove? Especially because you run 3...like what are you tutoring up most of the time? Deed? If so, isn't more Deed/removal better? Because to me, it doesn`t make much sense to tutor up like an 8 mana Enchantment that you can't cast most of the time and want to get with Rector anyway.
I agree, Sterling grove is stronger with enchantement-creatures or Starfield of Nyx. But you don't run them. And with neither it's just a bad enlightened tutor most of the time as people rarely run good enchant hate in G1 (only decay and sometimes a qasali/pulse/reclamation sage)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexeezay
The entire list is changing, and i'm testing the deck without Starfield. In my previous experience (and lists) Grove has been fundamental to get the right ench before the 4° turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexeezay
I'm not sure either about what should take grove place: from my experience, if is there something this deck is missing is the control on the topdeck that the old top guaranteed. The only card that can do a similar job is Mirri's Guile, for its cc, i fear.