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Hello fellow pox enthusiasts, I have for the past few weeks been piloting a pox deck at a local weekly tourney and was wondering if these findings are true. (I am playing a rack- pox like build)
Maverick- a decently easy match-up
Fish/Goblins- hard match-up
Dredge- 50/50 depending on if you can get hate or not.
Junk(GWB decks in general from my experience)- A very long match-up that you lose if you draw into nothing good.
depends on how you built your deck.
Mine is more of a discard oriented pox... LD pox was run and it always seemed to be that I could never seal the deal. I would keep them at 1-2 lands, and I would just hit a bad pocket of cards and they would just recover and eventually kill me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Im kinda looking for good advice, as I want to prove to people that Pox isnt a deck that is fringe, but can be top tier or at least near top tier.
If it helps, the pox list I run is basically the same as an above post/link, with some "minor altercations"
8 swamp
4 bojuka bog
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
3 cursed scroll
3 nether spirit
4 innocent blood
4 smallpox
2 pox
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 sinkhole
4 hymn to tourach
4 liliana of the veil
4 dark ritual
I've only played the deck a handful of times, but everytime I do I go 3 wins 1 loss or better, really fast creature based decks can be tough though, especially something as "the nuts" as affinity dumping everything so fast, since pox really has no "board wipes" but just a ton of card advantage 1 for 1's & 2 for 1's. The deck is AWESOME though when you expect alot of combo at a local metagame, the discard is just awesome, I personally sideboard 4 duress just to make sure I eat combo decks alive, so long as it's not those turn 1 "kill me first because they won the die roll" combo's, though the only person I've ever seen play belcher is myself. >^,^<
exactly my experience too. That, and my idea of developing the deck further, led me to build a pox deck with discard as theme. I used the rack, liliana's caress and quest for the nihil stone as win conditions. I once did 26 damage over two turns to an opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by kavaki
Sadly it was very inconsistent:(
A radical shift from creatureless deck to a creature based one led to this
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...p?23792-NeoPox
As long as you are the more aggressive player you will eat goblins and merfolk for breakfast and lunch.
Mine only gets inconsistant against Junk (I call any GWB deck I play junk.... it had goyfs, KotR and IoK....)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Anyway, I play a list that seems budget-esque, but is really what worked for me.
To answer one thing, Necroplasm seems weird, but it is a fun little thing I pull out against Goblins/Dredge and it has gotten me a couple wins.Quote:
Lands:
16 Swamp
3 Bojuka Bog
4 Mishra's Factory
Artifact:
4 The Rack
Creatures:
2 Nether Spirit
2 Tombstalker
Poxen:
1 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
Spells:
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Funeral Charm
3 Innocent Blood
1 Entomb
1 Darkblast
Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
2 Necroplasm
2 Infest
The SB will be changed soon, and SB is my weakest suite....
Hey Guys,
right now I'm playing Suicide Black but I'm planning to change to Pox, since I nearly have all of the Cards. Reading through the last 10 or so pages of the Thread, I found a list which drew my interest (Jin15's list on page 103). I want to base my list on his, since the one he posted seemed pretty solid.
So I went through the cards I want to include or maybe test and came out with the following:
//Lands
13 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
//Creatures
4 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
//Spells
4 Smallpox
3 Pox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 The Rack
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Phyrexian Totem
3 Innocent Blood
As you can see, it's 63 cards. So the problem I have now is, I want to cut three cards, but I don't know which.
I changed Tombstalker for Phyrexian Totem, but I don't know if it is still playable. I just like the idea of something producing mana after some (Small)Pox and being able to swing for 5 when the opponent doesn't have any hand cards and/or blockers.
I also included 2 Cursed Scrolls, since I like the card really much, as it is very useful during lategame and can shoot small creatures if you do not have a land to return your own Bloodghast (instead of Innocent Blood).
Next, I went down to 3 Innocent Blood since I played 4 in my The Gate-list and felt everytime that 3 are enough. I do not want to leave them out completely since I need something against Lackey/Delver on turn 1. Instead, I included a fourth Liliana since I think you really want her in every game and if you can't protect her she dies pretty fast (especially to bolts).
I also thought about Cabal Therapy but 4 Bloodghast and 1 Spirit just do not seem enough creatures and, as I said, there are 63 cards already.
So my question is, which cards would you take out if you were to choose?
And also, is Thoughtseize playable in Pox? I just included them since I own 4, but I'm really not sure about the lifeloss in Pox (it's okay in Suicide).
-1 Nether spirit, -1 Pox, -1 The rack?
I suggested the Nether spirit & single rack based on having Bloodghasts already in the deck, as well as the rack, Phyrexian totem, Mishra's factory & Cursed scroll, it should be more than enough kill conditions, myself I only have 10 kill condition cards, 4 being factory, 3 being spirit, 3 being cursed scroll.
I suggested the 1 Pox because, ever since Liliana of the Veil the card itself, being pox, has seemed to only average 1 or 2.
I would cut phyrexian totem, because it is expensive and thus awkward to cast. Then, since you don't rely on speed to win, I would not play rituals. The racks are better the more you have, so play four.
Add raven's crime, and more swamps.s
How do I make this list more stable in the getting black mana without removeing the core-lands?
Lands (23):
5 Swamp
5 Fetch
3 Urborg
4 Wasteland
1 Tabernacle
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Sheltered Valley
Creatures(3):
2 Nether spirit
1 Tombstalker
Spells(34):
4 Dark ritual
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Dividing Top
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Inquistion of Kozilek
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhoke
4 Smallpox
1 Pox
3 Innocent blood
1 Nether Void
1 Spinning Darkness
SB:
2 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible
1 Spinning Darkness
2 Perish
2 Extirpate
2 grafdigger's Coffin
4 Leyline of the Void
1 The Abyss
Help is requested please.
Your core land are basic swamps. It is important to realise that.
Anything else is there to do something for you that is clever, like fetch and top interaction.
So of we look at the manabase it really only consist of FIVE swamps.
to show what I mean I have here a modification of your list
Lands:
18 swamp
3 Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 Tabaernacle of pendrell vale
2 Dakmor salvage
Creatures:
2 Nether spirit
1 Tombstalker
4 Mishra's Factory
Spells:
4 Wasteland
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquistion of Kozilek
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Pox
3 Innocent blood
1 Nether Void
1 Spinning Darkness
This more than 60 cards but I wont bother to fix that for something
That is merely an example.
I recommend taking a look at ravens crime and some kind of card draw.
Phyrexian arena perhaps.
Note that your deck cannot win by land destruction only. Mid game game the opponent will often have recovered.
@Beautiful-Decay:
Definately find space for the 4th Urborg. I advise trading for a DRit.
I see your point in absuing Top with fetches, however, did you found time durdling around with it? Mirris Guile seems to be superior.
What do you guys think about playing Gravecrawler as a win condition? Seems like he would work well in multiples (three or the full playset) with Liliana of the Veil, Smallpox and other resource denial the deck already plays.
If you swap Mishra's Factory for Mutavault, there should be no problem casting any number of them from your graveyard.
Any thoughts on this?
Recommendation: I'd cut Sheltered Valley, Tombstalker/Spinning Darkness, and one or two fetches for +1 Urborg and +2/3 swamps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beautiful-Decay
Explanation: Control-based Pox runs 12-13 swamps (Bojuka Bog/Cabal Pit often replaces a few swamps), and 3/4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. 5 swamps, 5 fetchlands, and 3 Urborg gives you 13 black mana sources (pretty lousy for a deck with symmetrical land-destruction/discard). Not to mention, controlbased-Pox aims for a long game, and fetchlands only get worse as the game drags on. Just looking at this list, I'd expect your fetchlands to become dead semi-frequently, which is why Urborg is a no-brainer 4-of in your build. Sheltered Valley is cute, but an additional Urborg just does so much more for the deck... And, while fetchland-top filtering is helpful, I still feel like a stable mana base takes precedence. And that's why I'm recommending -1/2 fetchlands for +1/2 swamps. And lastly, -Tombstalker/Spinning Darkness (meta-call?) for +1 swamp -- this gets you closer to the standard 17 black mana sources (15), I'll assume the top/fetch filtering will even out the rest. **Didn't count Dark Rit. as a mana source, as it's temporary.
Hope I helped somehow,
Matthew
Also, Nether Void seems REALLY good in this build. Maybe consider +1/2 in the side, or even an additional copy in the main?!
Just a local 4 round type 1.5/legacy event report: (October-7th-2012)
8 Swamp
4 Bojuka bog
4 Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 Mishra's factory
4 Wasteland
4 Dark ritual
3 Cursed scroll
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent blood
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the veil
3 Nether spirit
2 Pox
~SB
3 Surgical extraction
4 Spinning darkness
4 Duress
4 Dystopia
(There is usually more Maverick than anything, so I had to sideboard Dystopia, this night however I don't think there was any Maverick, so, it happens, w/e!)
Round 1 -vs RUG
Game 1 is a loss, biggest note: At one point, had a Liliana of the Veil in play with 2 counters on it and opponent had a nimble mongoose, if I would have used it to force them to sac a creature, and lost Liliana, the game could possibly have been a different outcome for my results, however I was thinking about the long term, so they ended up answering my Nether Spirit & Mishra's factory as potiental blockers and swung with threshold 3/3 mongoose at Liliana, I really wasn't expecting an answer for both creatures as it was mid/late game so to speak, but I underestimated that, though doing the math the odds of that happening vs not happening were in my favor.
Game 2 In 4 spinning darkness, out 4 sinkhole. is a win after a very close game and a mulligan to 5, the game was in their favor and I just pulled what I needed at the last possible moments and gained control, though had a risk of being burned, I think I won at 1 life.
Game 3 A win after a keep of Spinning darkness Spinning darkness Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth, Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth, Urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth, Smallpox, Innocent blood Why did I keep this hand? Because I was betting on the fact that 21 of the 54 cards left in my deck were lands, that I would draw at least one, I was on the draw, and all I needed was 1 land & the smallpox to resolve when casted, I would just ditch the Urborg in play, one of those in hand, and I wouldn't be stuck with extras, luckily my opponent didn't know my hand so when I got the 2nd land and smallpox'ed, they didn't counter it, when I casted it i knew it was risky from the start to ride it all on that, but I took the risk and this time, it paid off. Every game, all 3 were close against rug and it was probably the fun'est match I had of the night for how back and forth / how close it was, the results could have gone either way at different points it swayed back and forth enough.
Round 2 - vs Merfolk
Game 1 is a win, kept them off doing too much and my life total was fairly high at the win point. Essentially locking them out of the game with a resolved [CARD]Liliana of the Veil[/CARD], no cards in their hand and constantly "sacrifice a creature" to opponent.
Game 2 In 4 Spinning darkness out 4 Sinkhole (Since wasteland & spinning darkness can hit mutavault) At one point, I was at 8 life, my opponent had resolved 2 Merfolk lords, & had a cursecatcher in play, so I needed to get in that cheap removal fast, luckily I was able to. My next turn after that point, I did Inquisition of Kozilek to nab something relevant, then did Innocent blood, used cursed scroll's ability to kill a second, then tapped out, did "remove 3 from graveyard accordingly" to do a -free- Spinning darkness on the other fishy, after that, they just never recovered and they were essentially locked out of the game when a resolved Liliana of the Veil started countering up.
Round 3 - vs Merfolk
Game 1 is a win, kept them off lands to do too much with wasteland against mutavault, sinkhole against islands, somehow I got to a point of drawing 3 sinkholes by the first 5/6 turns so that just ate their lands away, and that was the real battle, after that everything else started falling into place accordingly, but they conceded before I got even close to lethal.
Game 2 - Out 4 Sinkhole in 4 Spinning darkness, same opposing type of deck as previous match, so same strategy. Innocent blood, Spinning darkness, Liliana of the veil & Cursed scroll just keep them off their creatures, after I get to the point of having the upper hand, they concede early again, if it was out of frustration I apologize, earlier before the tournament myself and that person were talking and they commented on how they really hated Land Destruction in the game, I admitted that it was one of my favorite things to do even though the deck I am known for playing the most is High Tide.
Round 4 - vs B/W Stoneblade / Deadguy Ale
Game 1 Now this will be an interesting match, since alot of our black cards are the same, Liliana of the veil, discard like Hymn to Tourach, however they also have access to stoneforge mystic, mother of runes, vindicate, Vampire nighthawk. I get the win after doing the same thing the deck always does, eat away at their hand, eat away at their creatures, force them towards topdeck mode, and have a Liliana of the veil in play slowly building up counters.
Game 2 out 4 Sinkhole - in 4 Spinning darkness (sinkhole is nice, but I want some more removal for Mom's/Stoneforge Mystic's) Game 2 goes for alot longer than game 1, at one point Liliana of the veil comes into play destroying an opposing Liliana of the veil, a Vampire nighthawk has to be nuked away by 2 cursed scrolls in play and 6 mana, preventing Umezawa's Jitte from landing and starting to develop counters. I also never saw a Nether Spirit against them either game but luckily Cursed scroll was enough game 2, they resolved a Phyrexian arena and I basically rode that thing for the last 8 damage of their life, all I had to do was prevent them from gaining life via Jitte / on any creature, and opposing Vampire Nighthawk's. This match up was another fun one of the night as the momentum could have gone either way at certain points, and both wins against the deck were not easy walk-overs, had to work for them, Vampire nighthawk's toughness of 3 is a pain with just 1 cursed scroll, or Mishra's Factory's & Nether Spirit's that can't fly, so just have to do removal accordingly, have a focus on "save the sac a creature stuff" for those nighthawks.
Ended the night with a 4 - 0 record and got the 1st, netting some store credit for 5 bucks, decided to go with some more sleeves, a 4th Chaos warp I never got, and 2 more Magus of the Moon netting me a playset of them, though I don't know if I'd ever have them in the sideboard of Goblins, I could toy around with it.
I had not played the Liliana Pox in a while and it was fun to bust it out again, really over the last 3/4 months or so all I'd been rotating between was Prison stax, Goblins, & High Tide, though I did bust out belcher once and fell on my face with a losing record on that night ha ha. Zoo & Dredge I haven't played in forever, & Maverick I've yet to play even though I basically finished it, mostly because there's just so many other Maverick decks there than anything else I really don't look forward to mirror matching all day.
In either case, it was another fun night and another successful night for the deck we all know as Pox, or more specifically, Liliana Pox.
1 other note, I need a playset of Engineered Plague for the sideboard, that would help so much against those matchup's that try to swarm you, which is the biggest problem to run into, 1 for 1'ing creatures doesn't work so well against things like Goblins when they just keep coming.
I think Pox's biggest problem is sustainability. The deck has raw power, in the sense that it can get any deck into top-deck mode, but then what? Cursed Scroll locks out a lot of aggro-based decks, but aside from that, Liliana is the only other true "lock" piece. I know, I know, it's not all about the lock, but it is crucial in sustaining a win. I think some combination of Nethervoid + Top should be standard (perhaps 1:2), in addition to 4-5 fetches. Three cards would hardly pollute the deck, but would provide us with 7-10 potential lock pieces (when scroll is applicable), most of which apply immediate pressure...
Also, I've been play-testing 2-3 Karakas in the side... Pretty much golden against Sneak and Know and Reanimator.
Jst some thoughts,
Matthew
did anybody try to play Veneful Pharaoh? it seems easy to discard in the early game with smallpox or liliana, it protects you and liliana and then it provides a beatdown clock late game. Any opinions? Playing entomb can turn it in an unexpected bad surprise for the opponent.
It's ok. Works, at its best, with an Entomb toolbox (1x Darkblast, 1x Cabal Therapy, etc.) The issues for me has been the replacement of the draw, especially when on the topdeck (ie Is this a better draw than Cursed Scroll, Factory, or another wincon?) and having a hard time casting it. Reaching 5 isn't easy, even if you include Dark Ritual in your build, and decks with a wasteland/stifle package can make it damn near impossible. Also, in games 2 and 3, when they know you're running it, aggro decks will just save for an alpha strike, combo will just ignore it and control decks usually have a way to ignore it. That said, it's best against control.Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
My list currently:
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
13x Swamp
1x Cursed Scroll
1x Crucible of Worlds
3x The Rack
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Smallpox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
1x Pox
1x Nether Void
1x Nether Spirit
SB:
1x Pithing Needle
1x Chains of Mephisthopheles
1x Trinisphere (something else if I move this to main)
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Leyline of the Void
2x Spinning Darkness
3x Infest
4x Duress
I've been quite happy about it, though I'm pondering about cutting one Rack and possibly adding one Trinisphere to main. 8 finishers should be ok, since Lilianas and recurring wastelands are also virtual finishers against many MU's. I've been also thinking about the usefulness of Chains in SB. It is fairly good against any control & combo, but when I think of it, I quess Trinisphere is better in every ocassion. I could perhaps cut Rack, add Trinisphere, remove Chains and add another Trini to SB. Any thoughts?