[Deck] Merfolk

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Originally Posted by tivadar

Is bolt better than STP? I understand there's no lifegain for your opponent, but still... Also, does red provide answers to enchantments and artifacts? Does it provide answers to things burning your creatures? I'm willing to consider a red splash, but bolt and fire/ice to me aren't really a good argument for it. As I've said before, the point of a splash is not the mainboard, but what it offers in the sideboard...

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Im aware that the main reason to consider the splash is sideboard cards however, the red splash I propose is to both the main deck and the sideboard.
Pro Cons of red splash

Pro:
-Burn out lavamancers, nactals, lackeys and shit
-Fire/Ice is removal and tempo as well as a way to stop goyf from getting in the way sans LoA.
-Reach
-Sideboard Moons and (arguably) lavamancer

Cons:
Stifle/Waste vulnerability
At least in the version im testing, 16 creatures may be a bit light
Sb option are a bit limited with red

I'm sure there are more but thats mostly what I've thought about. And while people will say that white offers better SB i have tested the white side and honestly, zoo is still a piss poor matchup since they almost always take g1 and can easily steal another game on the back of bolts, Fireblast, Goyf and Nactl and Lavamancer. Red offers a different route in stopping these threats or at least trying to race.
Also sideboard red blasts make up for what might be a slightly weaker blue matchup.

Just my thoughts.

I think that Merfolk is making itself open to more hate. Part of the reason the deck was so good is because 30% of the format had 8 almost wasted slots against us, with fetches and duals, we open ourselves up to the same hate we give out, and if we are going to weaken ourselves, Tempo Thresh is a better deck.

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

I think that Merfolk is making itself open to more hate. Part of the reason the deck was so good is because 30% of the format had 8 almost wasted slots against us, with fetches and duals, we open ourselves up to the same hate we give out, and if we are going to weaken ourselves, Tempo Thresh is a better deck.

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Well said...

Currently the standard merfolk list run's 6-8 colorless mana already in a 19-20 land count. If your opponent is able to waste, destory or stifle one of your early lands and you don't draw any lands to recover from it your pressure meaning threats will weaken and you may find it hard to deal with your opponents bigger threats.

Insert different arguments on the builds... go tempo, control, go splash, etc.

As for the meta atleast here in our place. Almost all are doing adjustments to combat the merfolk deck since it has proved that it could really win tournys. After that adjustment i find it hard to win espceially against red.

Some adjustments i've seen so far:
- red splash is now more visible
- boardsweepers that can't be stifled are built in main deck
- abuse the lack of evasion by using flying critters that uses jitte and ride it to victory or the use of moat
- pridemage visibility

As for the development of the deck. Like the post above color splash is a development itself. People are finding ways to make it better to match the meta in their place.

There are alot of people reading and posting in the forums i doubt it if they would read all the early pages of it. Thus old issues are still coming up. Alot of people are now curious and wants to play a merfolk deck since its doing well in tourny's thus several questions are poping out.

I hear y'all. I suppose I was over-reacting a bit, but I was mostly just trying to shake things up a bit around here. :wink:

Anyhow, I realize Merfolk Sovereign has been making a bit of a splash, but I'm really hoping for Zendikar to have some kewl shit for this deck, since they're bringing back alternate mana costs, albeit in what seems like a form with more conditional aspects:

Whiplash Trap UU3

Instant - Trap
If an opponent had 2 or more creatures enter the battlefield under his or her control this turn, you may pay U rather than pay Whiplash Trap’s casting cost.
Return two target creatures to their owner's hand.
Illus. Zoltan Boros & Gabor Szikszai

...I don't see this card really making the sideboard cut for Merfolk, nonetheless, it makes me hopeful.

Oh, and I hope "Instant- Trap" is some sort of typo... Ugh.

I got first place tonight at my local tournament. 20+ people. The more I play Merfolk at that place, the more I want a splash.

I ran the 24 creature list: 12 Lords, 4 Thrashers, 4 Cursecatcher, 4 Silvergill.

Match 1 vs 4c or 5c something
I played solitaire.

Match 2 vs 4c Slivers
G1 - I keep an awful hand. I lose to not being able to find mana or Vial.
G2 - Turn one Vial and counter everything except a Sinew Sliver, but win.
G3 - Play like 4 Lords and Mutavault ends up being a 7/7 at one point.

Match 3 vs Burn
G1 - I mulligan to 4, but pull through miraculously. He stalls out and I get him with a Lord and a Mutavault slowly.
G2 - I mulligan to 5 (fucking colorless mana with no Vial or Islands either). I push him to like 6 life with a Standstill on board, but then he floats RR, Fireblasts, I draw 3 Merfolk and no Force of Will. He Forks it twice and finishes with a Fireblast #2. 16 damage in one turn. Fuck Fork.
G3 - I get him to 14 while he picks off my guys and I stay at 17. He drops Needle on Vial which was irrelevant (I had like 6 lands and I sided them out). He ends up dropping Ensnaring Bridge and we play Draw Go for a while. I finally am able to attack for 12 with 3 Lords (he's at 6) He REBs one, I have no response, he Forks, I FoW the original. He Fireblasts that Lord with 3 mana open (I have Cursecatcher and 2 Daze...dammit) but 2 Lords is enough to kill him.

Match 3 vs Angelgeddon Stax
G1 - Wakethrasher hits for 4, 5, 6, and then 7.
G2 - I mulligan to 5 but it's awful. I counter everything until he finally resolves and Angel and beats my face in.
G3 - Early Standstill and 2 Silvergills. He gets a Ghostly Prison through and Armageddons. I end up with a Jitte on a Gill. He gets a Maze of Ith. I'm able to play Kira which is the lawls. I end up getting him.

Thrasher is hit or miss. Great vs nonburn. Awful vs burn. I like 12 Lords. Not set on 7/20 of my lands being colorless though. In my meta, Wasteland is also hit or miss. There are a lot of decks with all basics. But there are some decks that it absolutely ruins. But Mutavault is sick too, so I'm not sure what to do. I guess I could drop some number of Thrasher for either draw or extra lands. Not sure. White splash seems like the way to go. STP, Absolute Law and Disenchant are all very appealing. I don't like not being able to deal with Moat and other pesky enchantments or artifacts.

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Originally Posted by chokin

...
Match 3 vs Burn
...
G3 - I get him to 14 while he picks off my guys and I stay at 17. He drops Needle on Vial which was irrelevant (I had like 6 lands and I sided them out). He ends up dropping Ensnaring Bridge and we play Draw Go for a while. I finally am able to attack for 12 with 3 Lords (he's at 6) He REBs one, I have no response, he Forks, I FoW the original. He Fireblasts that Lord with 3 mana open (I have Cursecatcher and 2 Daze...dammit) but 2 Lords is enough to kill him.
...

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Not that you didn't win anyway, but if he plays REB, passes priority w/o forking, and you pass back. It resolves and he can't fork it + you can't counter it.

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Originally Posted by RogueMTG

Not that you didn't win anyway, but if he plays REB, passes priority w/o forking, and you pass back. It resolves and he can't fork it + you can't counter it.

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Yeah I bitched at him for that shit. He threw a little fit. It's like after he knew it'd resolve he wanted to Fork it but I saw the opportunity to 2 for 1 him so I put on my coolface and we stepped it back. His biggest mistake was not playing anything when I said "End my mainphase". If he'd done stuff then, I'd be unable to attack.

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Originally Posted by chokin

Yeah I bitched at him for that shit. He threw a little fit. It's like after he knew it'd resolve he wanted to Fork it but I saw the opportunity to 2 for 1 him so I put on my coolface and we stepped it back. His biggest mistake was not playing anything when I said "End my mainphase". If he'd done stuff then, I'd be unable to attack.

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So that's what that was about. I was too busy thrashing Truffle Shuffle with Canadian Thresh, so all I heard was something about "can't Fork".

Splash green and run Tarmogoyf and Grips. Also, how much burn is there, usually? Thrasher is so good that cutting it for one matchup seems weak.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

So that's what that was about. I was too busy thrashing Truffle Shuffle with Canadian Thresh, so all I heard was something about "can't Fork".

Splash green and run Tarmogoyf and Grips. Also, how much burn is there, usually? Thrasher is so good that cutting it for one matchup seems weak.

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Burn decks usually account for ~10-20% of the field there. Then there are a couple control decks that use Fire/Ice. It's just like how I said Stifle is hit or miss there because you can play against decks with 0 activated abilities or decks that would be devastated by Stifle.

Pingveno plays a white splash (he was playing Ultimate Walker against you). He likes it a lot. It's an 18/22/20 Land/Creature/Spells list with STP and Sygg, River Guide and Mark of Asylum(I have Absolute Law) in the board. He was experimenting with Harm's Way as well, but I think it's been removed.

I've seen some green splashes on deckcheck, but I haven't tested it. My graveyard usually isn't very diverse usually. Counters and Standstill are usually in the yard. I really rely on my opponent to make Goyf bigger. Plus Relic and Goyf don't mix and although few people run Goyf, turning him into a 0/1 while I keep my big mean fishmen is unfair.

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Originally Posted by chokin

I got first place tonight at my local tournament. 20+ people. The more I play Merfolk at that place, the more I want a splash.

I ran the 24 creature list: 12 Lords, 4 Thrashers, 4 Cursecatcher, 4 Silvergill.

Match 1 vs 4c or 5c something
I played solitaire.

Match 2 vs 4c Slivers
G1 - I keep an awful hand. I lose to not being able to find mana or Vial.
G2 - Turn one Vial and counter everything except a Sinew Sliver, but win.
G3 - Play like 4 Lords and Mutavault ends up being a 7/7 at one point.

Match 3 vs Burn
G1 - I mulligan to 4, but pull through miraculously. He stalls out and I get him with a Lord and a Mutavault slowly.
G2 - I mulligan to 5 (fucking colorless mana with no Vial or Islands either). I push him to like 6 life with a Standstill on board, but then he floats RR, Fireblasts, I draw 3 Merfolk and no Force of Will. He Forks it twice and finishes with a Fireblast #2. 16 damage in one turn. Fuck Fork.
G3 - I get him to 14 while he picks off my guys and I stay at 17. He drops Needle on Vial which was irrelevant (I had like 6 lands and I sided them out). He ends up dropping Ensnaring Bridge and we play Draw Go for a while. I finally am able to attack for 12 with 3 Lords (he's at 6) He REBs one, I have no response, he Forks, I FoW the original. He Fireblasts that Lord with 3 mana open (I have Cursecatcher and 2 Daze...dammit) but 2 Lords is enough to kill him.

Match 3 vs Angelgeddon Stax
G1 - Wakethrasher hits for 4, 5, 6, and then 7.
G2 - I mulligan to 5 but it's awful. I counter everything until he finally resolves and Angel and beats my face in.
G3 - Early Standstill and 2 Silvergills. He gets a Ghostly Prison through and Armageddons. I end up with a Jitte on a Gill. He gets a Maze of Ith. I'm able to play Kira which is the lawls. I end up getting him.

Thrasher is hit or miss. Great vs nonburn. Awful vs burn. I like 12 Lords. Not set on 7/20 of my lands being colorless though. In my meta, Wasteland is also hit or miss. There are a lot of decks with all basics. But there are some decks that it absolutely ruins. But Mutavault is sick too, so I'm not sure what to do. I guess I could drop some number of Thrasher for either draw or extra lands. Not sure. White splash seems like the way to go. STP, Absolute Law and Disenchant are all very appealing. I don't like not being able to deal with Moat and other pesky enchantments or artifacts.

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Nice job on the first place. Btw, this is Jeff (one of the twins). Who played burn there? I don't really remember anyone that has played burn there at Showtime other than Jason. Also, was Tony the person playing Angelddon? Nice play with the kira :P

I win a champ in Brazil with this list :


4 Silvergil
4 Lord
4 Reejerey
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Fow
4 Brainstorm
2 Snare
4 Daze
2 Threads
1 Wipe Away
3 Vial
4 Standstill

3 Wasteland
4 Vault
3 Tropi
6 U fechts
4 Islands


54 players, I win with 6-0-1

I win against Deadguy, Zoo, Burn, Uw Landstill, Mono B and drawn with Dredge.

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Originally Posted by Blorokis

I win a champ in Brazil with this list :


4 Silvergil
4 Lord
4 Reejerey
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Fow
4 Brainstorm
2 Snare
4 Daze
2 Threads
1 Wipe Away
3 Vial
4 Standstill

3 Wasteland
4 Vault
3 Tropi
6 U fechts
4 Islands


54 players, I win with 6-0-1

I win against Deadguy, Zoo, Burn, Uw Landstill, Mono B and drawn with Dredge.

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How did only 3 vial work for you? seems like one of the best cards in the deck. I usually want 4.

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Originally Posted by Blorokis

I win a champ in Brazil with this list :


4 Silvergil
4 Lord
4 Reejerey
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Fow
4 Brainstorm
2 Snare
4 Daze
2 Threads
1 Wipe Away
3 Vial
4 Standstill

3 Wasteland
4 Vault
3 Tropi
6 U fechts
4 Islands


54 players, I win with 6-0-1

I win against Deadguy, Zoo, Burn, Uw Landstill, Mono B and drawn with Dredge.

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I guess if you won, you won... But Lord of Atlantis and Merrow Reejerey just don't really seem like the best creatures to run if you're playing a deck that has 12 (count 'em: twelve) Merfolks in it. Seriously, you didn't find the "reveal" cost on Silvergill Adept to be a problem??

This isn't to trash your list at all. But honestly what you have there seems like it would play out very differently from most traditional Merfolk lists. You could experiment with some Trygon Predators and some Nimble Mongeese, add a couple more Vendillion Cliques, replacing the Mutavaults with Mishra's Factories, and just cut all the Merfolk from your list....

Or else you could just find the space to run some more Merfolk, which will maximize those eight creatures in there that say "+1/+1 to all Merfolk". I think you'll like your results. I hear Cursecatcher and Wake Thrasher are really good, so much so that some folks see some amount of those cards as sort of an "auto include" in Merfolk. :wink: :wink:

EDIT: Also, could we see the sideboard? Because I'm having a hard time seeing how your list easily beats Zoo and Burn...

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Originally Posted by Blorokis

I win a champ in Brazil with this list :


4 Silvergil
4 Lord
4 Reejerey
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Fow
4 Brainstorm
2 Snare
4 Daze
2 Threads
1 Wipe Away
3 Vial
4 Standstill

3 Wasteland
4 Vault
3 Tropi
6 U fechts
4 Islands


54 players, I win with 6-0-1

I win against Deadguy, Zoo, Burn, Uw Landstill, Mono B and drawn with Dredge.

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I agree that, though I respect that you went undefeated with it, your list looks very unconventional/strange. I'd be really interested in a tournament report if you can and are willing to write one.

So what does this deck do against Llawan, Cephalid Empress? It seems like the only thing to do is either bounce her (which seems like a fairly uneffective strategy) or steal her (still not that effective but better than bouncing her).

This deck resolves a vial against Llawan, or counters her, or bounces+counters her, or uses a few wastelands and wins before she gets to the party, because she costs 4 mana, and that's a lot in legacy.

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Originally Posted by dal9ll

So what does this deck do against Llawan, Cephalid Empress? It seems like the only thing to do is either bounce her (which seems like a fairly uneffective strategy) or steal her (still not that effective but better than bouncing her).

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-Stifle the comes into play.
-Aether Vial still works
-You have Mutavaults.
-You play counter magic.
-G splash can go for Tarmogoyf.

Not great options, but it's still not game-over.

Generally, I win round 1, or, if that isn't good enough, I send her farming.

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Originally Posted by RogueMTG

-Stifle the comes into play.
-Aether Vial still works
-You have Mutavaults.
-You play counter magic.
-G splash can go for Tarmogoyf.

Not great options, but it's still not game-over.

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Yeah, I don't seen Llawn as game ending, especially if that's the only hate they have. Obviously, it can turn the mirror match, given that all else is equal, but we definitely do have answers to this card.

Also, if you see Llawan, one thing you can do is say "Wow, thanks for devoting sideboard space against my one particular deck. How's that Goblins match-up coming for you?"

Asking what Merfolk does against a well-timed Llawan is kind of like asking what ANT can do about the opponent dropping a first turn Nether Void... The answer is "not very much," but it's also sort of a corner-case-scenario.

In all seriousness though, Llawan is a scary bitch. But I have yet to notice people making a lot of sideboard space to include her; I think luckily Merfolk does not occupy such a disproportionate amount of the meta-game for people to start packing Llawan en masse. So what we do against Llawan is in reality "not see it played very often."