Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Just wanted to point out the pseudo-Landstill list that placed 6th at 5k SCG legacy tournament, out of ~180 decks.
Artifacts
2 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
Instants
2 Cunning Wish
3 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
2 Forbid
4 Force Of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords To Plowshares
Planeswalkers
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-errant
2 Jace Beleren
Sorceries
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Decree Of Justice
Basic Lands
2 Island
2 Plains
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tolaria West
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Relic Of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Meddling Mage
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Extirpate
1 Misdirection
1 Path To Exile
1 Pulse Of The Fields
1 Pyroblast
1 Wing Shards
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lorddotm
Dredge isn't a triggered ability, it is a replacement, and therefore could not be stifled or such.
He did not say dredge he said ichorid, and ichorid in fact has a triggered ability.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I think the deck is called Ultimate Walker. It seems pretty good although I would really try to focus on a Speedstill list with maybe 2 Elspeth, 2 Vengeant/Garruk in some kind of Legacy Planeswalker deck. Planeswalker are technically broken under a Standstill but it's usually hard to pull that off since they cost 4cc at the very least and playing Standstill after turn 4 sucks, which is why he played Visions I believe. Tolaria West tutoring for Visions seems pretty nice though.
I think a Speedstill build with Standstill and Planeswalker might be better, but that's an unexplored deck and needs lots of tweaking.
Here's a poll: How many of you would run 2 Fact or Fiction MD if you can find the space?
(Here's another random thought. I've been playing EDH lately and realized how ridiculously powerful Arcanis is. I know he has no place in Legacy due to his cost commitment and the fact that he dies before he gets to draw cards, but in Landstill, would he be some sort of win-condition? There are couple of games where my factories go in for many turns without facing removal i.e. opponents burned out, only to find that my opponents and I topdeck and he gets removal while I get no counters. I'm just pondering if Arcanis hits play and isn't removed, then he will probably take up 2 removal slot just to remove him since he bounces himself. Drawing 3 cards a turn is really stupid lol)
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jimirynk
He did not say dredge he said ichorid, and ichorid in fact has a triggered ability.
He also said Loam...
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crz87
(Here's another random thought. I've been playing EDH lately and realized how ridiculously powerful Arcanis is. I know he has no place in Legacy due to his cost commitment and the fact that he dies before he gets to draw cards, but in Landstill, would he be some sort of win-condition? There are couple of games where my factories go in for many turns without facing removal i.e. opponents burned out, only to find that my opponents and I topdeck and he gets removal while I get no counters. I'm just pondering if Arcanis hits play and isn't removed, then he will probably take up 2 removal slot just to remove him since he bounces himself. Drawing 3 cards a turn is really stupid lol)
Arcanis is pretty expensive, but he will give you huge card advantage if he isn't answered.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crz87
I think the deck is called Ultimate Walker. It seems pretty good although I would really try to focus on a Speedstill list with maybe 2 Elspeth, 2 Vengeant/Garruk in some kind of Legacy Planeswalker deck. Planeswalker are technically broken under a Standstill but it's usually hard to pull that off since they cost 4cc at the very least and playing Standstill after turn 4 sucks, which is why he played Visions I believe. Tolaria West tutoring for Visions seems pretty nice though.
Visions also sucks after turn 4...
Quote:
Here's a poll: How many of you would run 2 Fact or Fiction MD if you can find the space?
I'm running a 3 FoF, 3 Standstill, 4 Brainstorm config right now.
But seriously, if you're going to run Standstill-less Landstill, at least cut the man lands and Wastelands too. I've lost so many games because I mulled a perfect fine hand had it not been for the colorless lands.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
To be honest, that list deserves a little credit because it plays like a very mid-range tempo deck, which is funny since in Legacy, you have Tempo Thresh that wins within turns by putting turn 1-2 tempo plays, and Landstill decks that don't really play tempo at all, but focus on hitting landdrops and gain card advantage.
I agree with Visions. I hate that card, not to mention that people get knowledge on when to hold onto a counterspell, or worse, in the mirror, they play a standstill when your visions is going off, forcing you to crack their standstill.
I like 3 Fact or Fiction. My only issue is that I'm too clogged on the 4cc slot (3 Wrath, 2 Fact, 2 Elspeth, 1 Humility). I do want to think of Landstill as a much more flexible mono-blue control and MUC runs four fact or fiction. I want to think that instead of Shackles and Kegs, we have Wrath and EE, so trying to keep at least 2 Fact or Fiction, if not 3, is a good idea.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I wouldn't cut the Wastelands but the Mishra's Factories definitely go. I tried Landstill without Standstill and Mishra's Factories and really like it a lot. I played two Thirst for Knowledge, which was amazing. The problem was I lost Counterbalance out of the board. It's been the best way to hit several problematic matchups for me so I kept the two casting cost Standstills in along with the Mishra's Factories. So now, I continue to occasionally have bad mana because of the Factories. If you don't play Counterbalance in the board, try Thirst for Knowledge. It was really good for me. I basically cut the Factories for more basic lands, I was already playing six, and another black source for Explosives.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
But seriously, if you're going to run Standstill-less Landstill, at least cut the man lands and Wastelands too. I've lost so many games because I mulled a perfect fine hand had it not been for the colorless lands.
Lots of people have been cutting standstills because other decks--dreadstill and merfolk, to name a couple, although there are others--have noticed the power of this card and are also playing standstill, or else operate under standstill as well or better than Landstill. This guy noticed the trend and cut the standstills for other draw. The fact that he can still take advantage of other players' standstills is, I think, only a bonus. I will say, though, that playing a suspend card and then having the other guy play standstill is sad, like giving them 3 cards.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
FYI - in the SCG Boston 5k thread, Enigma - a teammate of Yan who piloted the deck - said to expect a primer in a few weeks in which they will explain some of their questionable card choices. Daze jumps right off the page at me personally, but I'm going to wait until they do a write-up to comment further.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LostButSeeking
Lots of people have been cutting standstills because other decks--dreadstill and merfolk, to name a couple, although there are others--have noticed the power of this card and are also playing standstill, or else operate under standstill as well or better than Landstill. This guy noticed the trend and cut the standstills for other draw. The fact that he can still take advantage of other players' standstills is, I think, only a bonus.
Hasn't Standstill always been a situational card in Landstill? When you get to play it it's a clear winner, but there are a lot of situations where it sits dead in the hand because of the board position and an inability to both rectify that and play Standstill in the same turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LostButSeeking
I will say, though, that playing a suspend card and then having the other guy play standstill is sad, like giving them 3 cards.
My favorite deck to face at the moment when I'm playing Standstill is Goyf Sligh, because the Rift Bolts turn into +2 cards so often.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crz87
To be honest, that list deserves a little credit because it plays like a very mid-range tempo deck, which is funny since in Legacy, you have Tempo Thresh that wins within turns by putting turn 1-2 tempo plays, and Landstill decks that don't really play tempo at all, but focus on hitting landdrops and gain card advantage.
Oh no, it definitely makes sense. A lot of control decks back then used tempo elements to stall the game because the control deck is designed to have an inevitable win in the late game anyway, so if tempo elements can slow the opposing deck down it can definitely stall till late game and win. An example of this is the inclusion of Spell Snare and to an extent FoW. Stifle and Wastelands were 4c Landstill's tools of LD.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Walker
Instants
2 Forbid
Planeswalkers
2 Jace Beleren
That's pretty curious. I tried to build a forbid deck in a black thresh shell years back, but this seems much stronger. Turn 4+ visions play into protracted forbid soft locks I imagine.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LostButSeeking
Just wanted to point out the pseudo-Landstill list that placed 6th at 5k SCG legacy tournament, out of ~180 decks.
Artifacts
2 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
Instants
2 Cunning Wish
3 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
2 Forbid
4 Force Of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords To Plowshares
Planeswalkers
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-errant
2 Jace Beleren
Sorceries
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Decree Of Justice
Basic Lands
2 Island
2 Plains
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tolaria West
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Relic Of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Meddling Mage
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Extirpate
1 Misdirection
1 Path To Exile
1 Pulse Of The Fields
1 Pyroblast
1 Wing Shards
-So why is this more resiliant/ better then say uwr dreadstill?
-Is visions REALLY that good with stifle and Sprite a heavy part of the current meta?
-Is fire/ice truly enough with STP to handle such decks as goblins/merfolk without the use of wrath of god and such?
-Why play veangent above say a 3rd elspeth or 1 ajani?
-Why 2 crucible?
The questions keep floating into my head. Misderection in the sideboard?
I mean this is all fine and dandy but seriously I just don't see why said deck has 6 slots for 2 wishes.
I can't wait for a primer!
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
-So why is this more resiliant/ better then say uwr dreadstill?
-Is visions REALLY that good with stifle and Sprite a heavy part of the current meta?
-Is fire/ice truly enough with STP to handle such decks as goblins/merfolk without the use of wrath of god and such?
-Why play veangent above say a 3rd elspeth or 1 ajani?
-Why 2 crucible?
The questions keep floating into my head. Misderection in the sideboard?
I mean this is all fine and dandy but seriously I just don't see why said deck has 6 slots for 2 wishes.
I can't wait for a primer!
your questions are answered very simply, the first question is answered is that the 2 deck difference are huge which kinda like saying is it better to play threshold or landstill, its not a good contrast.
The second question is, there is only 1 deck that runs stifle and sprite and if your, scared from one deck then how can you play anything in legacy, merfolk is starting to disapear too because goblins is making a comeback, and goblins destroy merfolk.
The third question is simple too, yes swords and fire and ice are more than enough to stop those decks plus your forgetting explosives.
The next question is that the veangent does hard damage and it is removal which gives it huge advantage over the other planeswalkers.
and the 2 crucibles is normal number that runs them. its normal when you run factories and wasteland. Who actually like facing recuring factories that never go away and wastelands that shut down more than half the format.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
@Antonius
That's a precarious mix of mana you got there. And I still think 2 Swords to Plowshares tops 2 Snuff Out. Then again, you could also use Edict.
Anyhow, I have seen a UB Landstill before. It handles decently well, though I personally prefer white as a majority color for Elspeth and Humility; Wrath of God and Damnation are equivalents. Choosing white as a minority color is interesting though, as most UB variants I have seen splash green for Pernicious Deed.
Pithing Needle is not going to stop Top. Everybody with two or more colors runs Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Nevinyrral's Disk, Vindicate, or some form of board removal.
I think that Duress is not a good maindeck card for a control deck. Anyhow, what about Tombstalker? That's what the variant I saw uses as its win condition; 4 Fact or Fiction, 4 Tombreaver.
EDIT: Here is the appropriate DtB thread:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=9413
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
@Antonius
That's a precarious mix of mana you got there. If you run Tolaria West, do not count it as a land. Chances are, you will not ever use it as one unless you are really desperate. Also, Eternal Dragon does not synergize well, as white is not a majority color in your variant. Then again, green is a more common color for UB Landstill, and the best instant-speed mana fixer for green is perhaps Krosan Tusker (assuming anyone is concerned about mana fixing).
And I still think 2 Swords to Plowshares tops 2 Snuff Out. Then again, you could also use Edict.
Anyhow, I have seen UB Landstill before. It handles decently well, though I personally prefer white as a majority color for Elspeth and Humility; Wrath of God and Damnation are equivalents. Choosing white as a minority color is interesting though, as most UB variants I have seen splash green for Pernicious Deed.
Pithing Needle is not going to stop Top. Everybody with two or more colors runs Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Nevinyrral's Disk, Vindicate, or some form of board removal.
I think that Duress is not a good maindeck card for a control deck. Anyhow, what about Tombstalker? I once saw a UB Landstill with 3 Fact or Fiction, 3 Tombreaver. Another one I saw was an infamous Dreadstill variant. (Just throwing ideas out.) xD
This is the appropriate UBg/w Landstill thread:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=9413
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Misdirection in the sideboard of Ultimate Walker as a wish target is my guess. Maybe against Duress after you have stopped the first combo flurry? They Duress you and you Cunning Wish for Misdirection, pitch an Ancestral Vision to it and take their Orim's Chant without letting them look at your hand?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
Misdirection in the sideboard of Ultimate Walker as a wish target is my guess. Maybe against Duress after you have stopped the first combo flurry? They Duress you and you Cunning Wish for Misdirection, pitch an Ancestral Vision to it and take their Orim's Chant without letting them look at your hand?
That seems like a weak reason. Why not just play chant?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
That seems like a weak reason. Why not just play chant?
Well that's even an easier case. Wish for Misdirection, pitch Ancestral Vision to it and take a Time Walk. I don't know why they made the choices they did in the sideboard but I think with as many counters as they have that it's interesting to be able to use something like Misdirection as an offensive weapon also now and then. Obviously it's very situational because it doesn't happen fast and it requires the sacrifice of another card. Given the deck is already playing a card with limited value in the later game in Ancestral Vision maybe the payoff on Misdirection is worth it, especially if you do not have to have it clogging up the main deck.
