[Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

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Originally Posted by JPoJohnson

Yeah I had heard about that. And from several people I know that got to touch the cards apparently they are quite obviously different in how they feel (bend wrong and too glossy), but in a sleeve from across the table it's rather difficult to tell.

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From the pictures the corners seem too round as well. It looks like the manufacturer is using some sort of "normal" playing card dye to cut these.

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Originally Posted by Barook

As long as they do stuff like Tarmogoyf at Mythic rarity in a very limited set, prices won't go down.

That said, high prices also make the secondary market more and more attractive for card forgeries. Looks like the Chinese fakes are back:

http://learningkitty.com/2014/04/02/...thering-cards/

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Yeah, heard about this a few days ago. MTGLion is a giant tool though, he'll do anything to stay relevant. Reminder that every click you give him nets him money. Wizards is really bringing this on themselves though. Reprinting everything in some shape or form after Unlimited (Revised on) would solve this. We all knew the counterfeiters would go underground like this and Wizards still does nothing about it. It's only a matter of time until the proxies are nigh perfect unless you are an expert.

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Originally Posted by Barook

And I doubt prices would go down on the staples due to price memory, which also happened in Vintage, like Lemnear said.

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Well the thing is, while Vintage-only staples are still often quite expensive... we have to remember that Vintage-only staples generally come from the earliest sets, as that was before they were (better) able to evaluate power level and not print crazy powerful stuff like Ancestral Recall that's powerful enough to be banned in Legacy. And the earliest sets all had very small print runs, especially compared to sets nowadays. (I think there's more people who play the game than there were cards printed for Arabian Nights) Thus, there's very big problems with simple scarcity in regards to these older cards.

If you look at the prices for Vintage-only staples that were from anything after, say, Legends, their prices aren't particularly high, because their print runs were far better (except for Imperial Seal, which was from the criminally underprinted Portal Three Kingdoms), so scarcity can't be as responsible for high prices. I think the most expensive Vintage-only card from a set that had a reasonably-sized print run is Tolarian Academy, clocking in at about $17.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Well the thing is, while Vintage-only staples are still often quite expensive... we have to remember that Vintage-only staples generally come from the earliest sets, as that was before they were (better) able to evaluate power level and not print crazy powerful stuff like Ancestral Recall that's powerful enough to be banned in Legacy. And the earliest sets all had very small print runs, especially compared to sets nowadays. (I think there's more people who play the game than there were cards printed for Arabian Nights) Thus, there's very big problems with simple scarcity in regards to these older cards.

If you look at the prices for Vintage-only staples that were from anything after, say, Legends, their prices aren't particularly high, because their print runs were far better (except for Imperial Seal, which was from the criminally underprinted Portal Three Kingdoms), so scarcity can't be as responsible for high prices. I think the most expensive Vintage-only card from a set that had a reasonably-sized print run is Tolarian Academy, clocking in at about $17.

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The problem, though, is that Wizards doesn't really care about Legacy/Vintage anymore. They're content in letting it become so cost-prohibitive that people will cash out and simply not play the cards.

Until the game faces a downturn in popularity, that is.

It's kind of random, but Grand Prix Promo Chrome Mox WTF? I actually don't mind, as there's a cheap version, and it's great to have both normal cards available to players and an optional luxury collector item, but the disappearance and price jump blew my mind.

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Originally Posted by Scott

It's kind of random, but Grand Prix Promo Chrome Mox WTF? I actually don't mind, as there's a cheap version, and it's great to have both normal cards available to players and an optional luxury collector item, but the disappearance and price jump blew my mind.

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SCG still selling dozens for less than 30$

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Originally Posted by Mr.C

The problem, though, is that Wizards doesn't really care about Legacy/Vintage anymore. They're content in letting it become so cost-prohibitive that people will cash out and simply not play the cards.

Until the game faces a downturn in popularity, that is.

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I'm not sure how that relates to what I wrote.

im not sure where promo chrome mox went up, but there is like 100 for sale at 10-12 euro on magiccardmarket.

The EU's card supply to player demand is way more even than the US market. Over there USea's are now $300, Wasteland's at $130 and so on. Here? 90euro for a sea and 40 for a Wasteland on average. 'Murika hemorrhaged cards over the last decade and is now feeling that loss hard. SCG is bleeding that wound dry.

Again, where are those 30 moxens being sold, cant find it anywhere, makes no sense to me

That's true, I've recently acquired my fbb seas, volcanics and tropicals at about the same price people in eeuu buys the revised ones. And I know that SCG has been getting cards from europe (mkm) and selling in eeuu, so they're basicly getting rich just reselling. Why isn't more people from eeuu doing that?

Shipping costs+risk

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Originally Posted by jandax

The EU's card supply to player demand is way more even than the US market. Over there USea's are now $300, Wasteland's at $130 and so on. Here? 90euro for a sea and 40 for a Wasteland on average. 'Murika hemorrhaged cards over the last decade and is now feeling that loss hard. SCG is bleeding that wound dry.

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Where are you getting 90 € Underground Seas and 40 € Wastelands in EU?
I see cheapest 140 € NM Underground Sea (though no scans so could be any condition) on MKM. That's over $200 when calculating expensive shipping with insurance etc. Still nowhere near SCG prices but is slowly getting there according to MKM price chart history.
Similarly, cheapest NM English Wasteland is closer to 60 € than to 40 €.

As a side note, supposedly some big asian buyer approached SCG and other big retailers in one of the recent GP's and bought them out completely out of blue revised and unlimited duals. If this information is true, other places like MKM will catch up to the inflated prices sooner rather than later.

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Originally Posted by Pippin

Where are you getting 90 € Underground Seas and 40 € Wastelands in EU?
I see cheapest 140 € NM Underground Sea (though no scans so could be any condition) on MKM. That's over $200 when calculating expensive shipping with insurance etc. Still nowhere near SCG prices but is slowly getting there according to MKM price chart history.
Similarly, cheapest NM English Wasteland is closer to 60 € than to 40 €.

As a side note, supposedly some big asian buyer approached SCG and other big retailers in one of the recent GP's and bought them out completely out of blue revised and unlimited duals. If this information is true, other places like MKM will catch up to the inflated prices sooner rather than later.

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I can buy FN USea for €95 and €45 Wastelands in Sweden.

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Originally Posted by Purgatory

I can buy FN USea for €95 and €45 Wastelands in Sweden.

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So you'Re speaking of vis-a-vis, hand-to-hand trades? Makes sense, people are much mroe willing to offer a good price when you hold cash.

You have to be a pretty big asshat to buy from SCG. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

So you'Re speaking of vis-a-vis, hand-to-hand trades? Makes sense, people are much mroe willing to offer a good price when you hold cash.

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Yeah, we have an awesome community with players who sell/trade/buy cards with each other.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

You have to be a pretty big asshat to buy from SCG. Just saying.

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God forbid we buy from the only people that care to support legacy. Also their prices on foreign stuff is reasonable from time to time

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Originally Posted by Purgatory

Yeah, we have an awesome community with players who sell/trade/buy cards with each other.

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I can barely remember the days where you were able to buy/trade cards face to face without having a guy across who tries to make at least 30% extra in his favor.

Today I go to mkm, mail 2-3 sellers about discounts if I take this and that, buy that stuff, basta. I'm kinda reliefed that I don't have to spend 30min+ at a table just to see the other guy jumping off the trade last minute

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

God forbid we buy from the only people that care to support legacy. Also their prices on foreign stuff is reasonable from time to time

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Support Legacy my ass. We shall see how long they "support" us.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

God forbid we buy from the only people that care to support legacy. Also their prices on foreign stuff is reasonable from time to time

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They support Legacy for their own sake, not because they try to be the nice guys.

SCG is still the prime price gouger as far as Legacy is concerned. They rise the prices and the rest of the market follows suit.

They're a business and free to do whatever they like - including dropping Legacy support in favor of Modern.

It's like feeding starving people with slighty-poisoned food - while you might feel better now, it will kill you in the long-term.

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Originally Posted by Purgatory

I can buy FN USea for €95 and €45 Wastelands in Sweden.

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If those are NM there's your chance to make a few bucks by selling them on MKM for more, and at the same time sucking the staples out of your local playerbase. Happened with my local community some time back so we're stuck with 2 people having legacy cards instead of 20+ we used to get to nowadays non-existent local tournaments.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Support Legacy my ass. We shall see how long they "support" us.

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They've done more for Legacy in the last 3-4 years than any other entity has. Obviously, they're doing it because it benefits them but the community has grown because of it as well.

I have no problems with them profiting when they put the work, time , and effort into promoting the format.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I can barely remember the days where you were able to buy/trade cards face to face without having a guy across who tries to make at least 30% extra in his favor.

Today I go to mkm, mail 2-3 sellers about discounts if I take this and that, buy that stuff, basta. I'm kinda reliefed that I don't have to spend 30min+ at a table just to see the other guy jumping off the trade last minute

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I'd sig this. Except that I don't even bother asking for discounts, unless I'm making some super special trade. As long as I got everything I need, there's hardly any reason to discuss discounts on "three Ponders, one Teferi's Response" kind of trades... :cool::laugh:

Also, I like how people in our lgs always come up with "I can buy XYZ for only ?*' crowns on MKM, so give me a 95% discount or I'll seduce your wife." Frankly, I laugh right into their faces and tell them to buy from MKM then, esp. if they love to pay fees and play the game of "will it finish in my mailbox or will it not finish it in my mailbox, and even if it will finish in my mailbox, what will be the condition?" that is so thrilling esp. speaking of "three Ponders, one Teferi's Response" kind of trades.

Otoh, with the advent of online selling and such stuff, it's much harder to get ripped, you simply check the [you name the site] and say "gg, bb, cya" to anyone not willing to offer you a reasonable sale.

Honestly, I think I may trade with one or two guys of our lgs, and there are several whom I always laugh at and send them farming the moment they ask about my binder. Silly, yes, but so they are.

tl,dr: I hate trading. I'd love to win a million crowns so that I don't need to do it.

Btw, what's happening with Karakas? Our shop had it for 1800 CZK around Christmas, now it's priced at 2300 and they got none. Is DnT sooo good?

I just remembered about the guy i've met at BoM sunday. Spend 20 minutes of talking for a condition I can barely live with, he agrees, i get money, come back and he just tells me that he can get more elsewhere.

We are talking about a trade that was already clear in his favor.

Decided that I don't carry binders around anymore

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I just remembered about the guy i've met at BoM sunday. Spend 20 minutes of talking for a condition I can barely live with, he agrees, i get money, come back and he just tells me that he can get more elsewhere.

We are talking about a trade that was already clear in his favor.

Decided that I don't carry binders around anymore

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Seriously. I only just recently started using MOTL and I'm already enjoying the relief from the throngs of Standard players offering Pack Rats for your dual lands.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

You have to be a pretty big asshat to buy from SCG. Just saying.

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Do I get a prize because I buy from them almost exclusively these days? Like, a bigger ass as a hat?

I buy from SCG, just like any other online store/seller, when I find the best deal for a specific card I'm looking for. Also, SCG's card condition tends to be better and more accurate than some other online retail stores I've used frequently in the past.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I just remembered about the guy i've met at BoM sunday. Spend 20 minutes of talking for a condition I can barely live with, he agrees, i get money, come back and he just tells me that he can get more elsewhere.

We are talking about a trade that was already clear in his favor.

Decided that I don't carry binders around anymore

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I found some1 willing to sell me my last 2 DCI confidants, at BoM... I went and got cash, and 10 minutes later, he said "Well, I just found out I think they will go up in the future, so new price is 45$ more than before".....

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Originally Posted by TheAardvark

Do I get a prize because I buy from them almost exclusively these days? Like, a bigger ass as a hat?

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I most definitely don't use them exclusively. Just on mid range purchases where on TCG I'd have to go through multiple vendors to get what I want, but I don't see any reason to not buy from them if the deal is good. Of course my LGS is similarly priced, but at times I'm unhappy with their grading on condition.

And SCG supporting legacy is the reason that the format is even relevant. I don't feel bad supporting them for their tournaments. Prices suck ass right now, but if people keep buying them obviously the market at the set prices is there.

I think if the US cashes out to a degree and prices drop, Europe will yet again buy up the real estate and RL cards due to lower/competing prices. And the cycle resets itself if there is an abundance of cards under a price point which people are willing to pay. The Legacy scene goes indy and people keep the format alive regardless of a lack of support from WoTC(SCG). I'm no economist but it is a plausable way for things to head in five years or a decade's time. I hope I'm wrong, all that would suck worse than $300 USeas

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

I found some1 willing to sell me my last 2 DCI confidants, at BoM... I went and got cash, and 10 minutes later, he said "Well, I just found out I think they will go up in the future, so new price is 45$ more than before".....

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Well, the credo for private and professional traders within the MTG economy is: "If anyone is willing to pay the charged price, it's still too cheap to sell!"

Quote me on that

So many jaded Euros in this thread. SCG actually runs a pretty tight ship, and yes some of their prices are high on a few key staples and popular cards. However, they also sell a lot of other cards cheaper than you can find on eBay.

I'm also loving all the retarded comments about how <super pimped out scarce card> is too much for you to afford. There are always alternatives.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I buy from SCG, just like any other online store/seller, when I find the best deal for a specific card I'm looking for. Also, SCG's card condition tends to be better and more accurate than some other online retail stores I've used frequently in the past.

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I don't buy much from SCG these days, but I do recognize that if I do, I'm paying for them having what I want in stock as well as not having any issues with grading, etc.

I've had much more problems with TCG sellers than I have SCG or even eBay sellers.

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Originally Posted by swoop

"I support overpriced and the most user unfriendly online card store that frequently manipulates with market prices because they run a few tournaments a year and make money on players that attend then mask that with good rewards."

Yeah, VIVA LA SCG!

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Funny you say "overpriced". If someone is willing to pay the price they set, it can't actually be overpriced - it's just what the market will bear.

I would call 40-50 tournaments a year and paying out 10k per tournament a bit more than "a few".

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Originally Posted by Koby

However, they also sell a lot of other cards cheaper than you can find on eBay.

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This is true. They also stock rare and hard to find items that I can't easily find elsewhere, so I'll pay whatever for the convienece. Also, they're reputable, so you won't worry about getting ripped off on a high ticket item and their customer service team is pretty great (had a water damaged booster, was super easy to do an exchange and they threw in a couple goodies for my trouble).

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Funny you say "overpriced". If someone is willing to pay the price they set, it can't actually be overpriced - it's just what the market will bear.

I would call 40-50 tournaments a year and paying out 10k per tournament a bit more than "a few".

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It's a few. 40 tournaments where they make money, they're not altruits, they're doing this for a sole benefit of profit. They manipulate the market, they get inside info of new sets, and they inflate the prices of the cards artificially.
The market bears it for now but people are not happy with the way it's going, and people need to be happy to continue to buy product. Happy customers happy company.

Also yeah, 40 tournaments is nothing. 400k in award money (is it money or is it store credit?) is almost nothing compared to what they make in product sales at those tournaments.
Just calculate the price of admission multiply it with number of attendants, then subtract some fee for organisation and they'll still be in plus.

They're just glorified traders doing it for a sole purpose of profit. Nothing else.

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Originally Posted by swoop

"I support overpriced and the most user unfriendly online card store that frequently manipulates with market prices because they run a few tournaments a year and make money on players that attend then mask that with good rewards."

Yeah, VIVA LA SCG!

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SCG actually has the best customer service of the online magic shops. The cards they sell are actually in the conditions you buy them in and they don't cancel orders because the price spiked before they were able to ship them. They run more than a few legacy tournaments, they run a fuck ton of them, they even stream them online for players to watch. Also they don't mask anything, they are a business, which exist to make make money.

If you can't afford the price of legacy cards don't blame scg, who advocate getting rid of the reserve list btw, blame wizards for keeping the reserve list, blame hoarders who collect cards because they think its a retirement fund, blame players for paying high prices.

Long story short:
SCG will restock their inventory, if the only way to get players to sell their underground seas is to raise their buylist close to tcg player prices thats what they will do.
Don't hate the player hate the game.
It's just bidness.

also, of course magic can be an Investment, and a very nice one indeed.

Im fucking horrible at stocks, but im pretty sure you need to be doing insider Trading to match value increase legacy staples have seen the last 4 years.


Im not so horrible at magics, and do very much so enjoy speculation.

The relevant discussion here should be about the ramifications of scg having the ability to dictate prices to a degree that other retailers cannot.

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Originally Posted by phonics

The relevant discussion here should be about the ramifications of scg having the ability to dictate prices to a degree that other retailers cannot.

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The market leader has always been able to do that. The ramifications are that either (a.) the market marches to SCG's drum or (b.) the market will reject whatever SCG is doing and SCG will have to do the moving and shaking in order to accomodate the market.

I'm more interested in Wizards releasing godbooks to certain people/entities, while others are left out in the cold. I did not know of this apparently commonplace practice until recently. Seems pretty bogus to me.