[Primer/Deck] Pox

If it was that easy...

A problem is that aggro, combo and control comes in too many shapes. Storm is what we think of as achetypical combo. You get your win by play spells, preferably instans (solidarity). Elves otoh combo with creatures (?!).
We are used to think of Miracles as the classic control deck. Counters and answers.
Been in existence since revised if not earlier.
Death and Taxes is also control. Creature based control(?!). Boarding in discard and enchantment hate is reasonable against t the former but not the later.

The examples list is quite long. Too long to write down, let alone remember. For me it is easier to think of specifik decks and try have answer to them, than to the think of the classical division in combo, control and Aggro.

So what is the solution? Well, the hidden flaw of the decks above is that when they borrow the tools to function from another of magic, they get an accompanying weakness.
Elves,, for example, is vulnerable to sweepers because, you know CREATURES.
So Engineered Plague is obviously good, but against Storm it doesn't do much. Darn.

Wouldn't being prepared for the three archetypes have you prepared or each specific deck? Both Elves and D&T use the same SB hatred, Anti-swarm. Most combo decks like to use their yard. But we are Hymn to Tourach decks. The discard is dangerous already, but sometimes losing the opening die roll is enough...:frown:
Since decks cross each other over, wouldn't being prepared for everything be a good idea? :cool:

Land (27)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Ifnir Deadlands
1 Dunes of the Dead
4 Mishra's Factory
10 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Creatures (2)
2 Nether Spirit

Enchantment (1)
1 Nether Void

Artifact (5)
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb

Planeswalker (4)
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sorcery (21)
1 Beseech the Queen
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

Sideboard
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Defense Grid
4 Blood Scrivener
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning

Instead of the Tabernacle & Tomb of Urami Suite that was used in Osman's build, I'm going Ifnir Dunes of the Deadlands Crucible combo. Defense Grid seems stupid, I know. Being a mana denial pox, I figured if you can't get some Chains of Mephistopheles, at least slow up their instants. Formerly a slot for Uba Mask, but was too slow.

Eternal Atlas

2

Artifact
2, T: Draw a card. Activate this ability only if you control at least three lands with the same name.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Eternal Atlas

2

Artifact
2, T: Draw a card. Activate this ability only if you control at least three lands with the same name.

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I was also looking at this:Arguel's Blood Fast. It's a little risky, but the likelihood of it flipping is pretty high if you are on big Pox. Sacrificing Bloodghasts for two life a turn after attacking seems good. The draw is a little pricey though. Likely not good enough, but interesting. I can see multiple Tombstalkers being good as well. In a pinch it can sacrifice a Factory for 3+ life.

All cards will be compared to the top, and be found wanting...

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Eternal Atlas

2

Artifact
2, T: Draw a card. Activate this ability only if you control at least three lands with the same name.

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Damn. Too many non-basics with different names for me to consistently use :frown:. But yes, SDT was the be all/end all for card filtering. I tried and failed with Crystal Ball. Now if it was only 2 mana... I'd love it!!

guys, do yourself a favor and try out Night's Whisper instead of this shitty card.

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

guys, do yourself a favor and try out Night's Whisper instead of this shitty card.

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In most build (the non-aggro ones), Phyrexian Arena is even better I think.

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Originally Posted by ParisFlorian

In most build (the non-aggro ones), Phyrexian Arena is even better I think.

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It's not because 2 mana is a lot less than 3. Whisper also gives you the cards immediatly instead of over the course of several turns (which is also the problem this new artifact suffers from). Arena also is kind of problematic if you're not able to compensate the lifeloss. Arena is good as a "threat" other decks have to answer if your deck consists mostly of otherwise reactive cards (removal etc.) but has also got a lot of downsides that have made me questioning its playablity lately.

Whats going on? I went with pox for my first time to 2 tournaments. I went just a simple 2-2

I already think the no ritual list is better. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by fluuu

Whats going on? I went with pox for my first time to 2 tournaments. I went just a simple 2-2

I already think the no ritual list is better. Thoughts?

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It depends on your meta. Do you really need the speed at the cost of cards? My local meta has no combo, so a Dark Ritual-less deck is fine. If you're in a hurry, consequences be damned, then a full set of DR is your flavor. With 2 3 cmc planeswalkers in Black it's a very good idea to sacrifice your late game consistency and top deck strength to be at turn 3 on your first turn and drop a turn 1 Liliana Veil/Last Hope. :laugh: Be wary of the force...

What to substitute the DR with? A Swamp obviously and then what?

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

What to substitute the DR with? A Swamp obviously and then what?

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I play the following list:

1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's factory
1 Spawning Pool
4 Urborg
1 bojuka bog
1 mikokoro, center of the sea
4 Wasteland
9 Swamp
1 Nether spirit
4 DR
1 Beseech the Q.
3 Hymn
4 Innocent blood
2 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Thoughtseize
1 Nether void
1 Crucible
2 IoK
1 Phyrexian totem
2 Ensnaring bridge
4 LOV
1 Liliana the last hope
1 Cursed scroll

SB:
1 the abyss
4 Leyline of the void
2 Dark confidant
1 Pithing needle
1 chains of Mep.
1 Phyrexian obliterator
1 toxic deluge
2 bitterblossom
2 lost legacy

Thoughts of my list? If i cut DR I problably will add another swamp, 2 sinkholes and another hymn.

What do you guys think about Karn scion of urza?

Thanks for your answers

Karn was hot but seems to have fallen out of fashion super quick. Don't know why.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Karn was hot but seems to have fallen out of fashion super quick. Don't know why.

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ya.. and what would u change over my list?

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Originally Posted by fluuu

ya.. and what would u change over my list?

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One Nihilith perhaps, since you are short on threats. You can suspend it under nether void. A fourth Hymn and two swamps.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Karn was hot but seems to have fallen out of fashion super quick. Don't know why.

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He does too little too slowly. That and his loyalty abilities don't help the deck. There's a reason lots of the recent top Pox decks don't include hard draw spells/abilities. Hell, even the old winning Pox decks never ran them either. For 4 mana, we could throw 2 Hymns at your dome. I'm glad I never purchased Karn now. Had my doubts due to the original Pox commandments: damage, mana, disruption. Karn does none of the above. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by fluuu

ya.. and what would u change over my list?

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as you are playing prison Pox not sure Nihilith is necessary, but it is a cool card and Fear is a sweet way to just clock them hard.

For my suggestions - I'd cut Totem and Nether Spirit for 2x Necropolis Fiend, 2 Innocent blood for 2 Fatal Push, and drop Crucible for a second Scroll

This gives you more closing power and more power over creatures.

Spirit is weak to the same things as Fiend (both only die to Swords, tho Spirit can be knocked out for a turn by other removal) but is way worse than Fiend on the table. Fiend doesn't have the same synergy with reciprocal discard, sure, but still has synergy in that discard fuels the yard for him. And fiend dominates the table brutally.

Totem ramps but you already have ritual. The creature mode is fine but it'll be your whole turn when you use it, and it's not only weak to Swords but also weak to any burn spell or even a flashed in snapcaster mage. Fiend is not weak to those and closes almost as fast without committing resources while also being harder to block, capable of blocking in his own right, and generally better from behind

Never been a huge fan of crucible, we have tons of late-game card already, and too often you draw it and it does nothing. Scroll is proactive and helps kill planeswalkers, which is important. This deck is all about recursive, permanent-based removal. I'd rather do repeated damage than repeated waste/mishra, miss land drops, etc. Not denying crucible is a powerhouse in the right situation, just that situation seems more rare than the scroll situation.

Push over blood is arguably better in general since you can choose the thing and won't get blown out by elves or Young Pyromancer/Mentor tokens. if you run Fiend it's better since you can cast it with Fiend in play.


TL;DR I love Necropolis Fiend in this deck :tongue: and fewer cute cards more removal and CA generating!

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

as you are playing prison Pox not sure Nihilith is necessary, but it is a cool card and Fear is a sweet way to just clock them hard.

For my suggestions - I'd cut Totem and Nether Spirit for 2x Necropolis Fiend, 2 Innocent blood for 2 Fatal Push, and drop Crucible for a second Scroll

This gives you more closing power and more power over creatures.

Spirit is weak to the same things as Fiend (both only die to Swords, tho Spirit can be knocked out for a turn by other removal) but is way worse than Fiend on the table. Fiend doesn't have the same synergy with reciprocal discard, sure, but still has synergy in that discard fuels the yard for him. And fiend dominates the table brutally.

Totem ramps but you already have ritual. The creature mode is fine but it'll be your whole turn when you use it, and it's not only weak to Swords but also weak to any burn spell or even a flashed in snapcaster mage. Fiend is not weak to those and closes almost as fast without committing resources while also being harder to block, capable of blocking in his own right, and generally better from behind

Never been a huge fan of crucible, we have tons of late-game card already, and too often you draw it and it does nothing. Scroll is proactive and helps kill planeswalkers, which is important. This deck is all about recursive, permanent-based removal. I'd rather do repeated damage than repeated waste/mishra, miss land drops, etc. Not denying crucible is a powerhouse in the right situation, just that situation seems more rare than the scroll situation.

Push over blood is arguably better in general since you can choose the thing and won't get blown out by elves or Young Pyromancer/Mentor tokens. if you run Fiend it's better since you can cast it with Fiend in play.


TL;DR I love Necropolis Fiend in this deck :tongue: and fewer cute cards more removal and CA generating!

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Mmm interesting. I am not sure about the demon, on the paper it doesnt seem really interesting but who knows... I should give it a try. Its it antisinergic with cabal pit by the way...

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

He does too little too slowly. That and his loyalty abilities don't help the deck. There's a reason lots of the recent top Pox decks don't include hard draw spells/abilities. Hell, even the old winning Pox decks never ran them either. For 4 mana, we could throw 2 Hymns at your dome. I'm glad I never purchased Karn now. Had my doubts due to the original Pox commandments: damage, mana, disruption. Karn does none of the above. :laugh:

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Yeah, it was an expression of the desire to improve the decks. Been there, done that.

Trust me, Fiend is pure gas.

I'll give you two more reasons besides those cited above
1. In combat he kills virtually every other non-combo creature in legacy. Small exception for angler and goyf, where you have to block and use his ability, and I guess also can't kill a big enough death shadow, tho swinging for 4 in the air makes shadow kind of risky. Also races TNN in the air

2. What would you rather topdeck? Imagine you are ahead, Lili in play, opp with not a lot - do you want to land a big threat, give him 5 more draw steps, and further blank all creatures he draws, or do you want spirit/totem to present a slow clock or a fast one that stalls against any creature? Now imagine youre behind, opp with some dudes, you with lands and maybe a spell or two - do you want a 4/5 that kills any of his attackers and picks them off when they don't attack, instantly stabilizing you, or do you want a 2/2 that can block repeatedly? Or maybe a 5/5 that cant block?

Ok ok sorry I'll stop and admittedly he's a bit of a pet card. But I do think he's very strong, harder to answer (non-swords decks have to 2-1 themselves) and more aggressive. You're right about cabal pit tho :(

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

Trust me, Fiend is pure gas.

I'll give you two more reasons besides those cited above
1. In combat he kills virtually every other non-combo creature in legacy. Small exception for angler, where you have to block and use his ability, and I guess also can't kill a big enough death shadow, tho swinging for 4 in the air makes shadow kind of risky. Also races TNN in the air

2. What would you rather topdeck? Imagine you are ahead, Lili in play, opp with not a lot - do you want to land a big threat, give him 5 more draw steps, and further blank all creatures he draws, or do you want spirit/totem to present a slow clock or a fast one that stalls against any creature? Now imagine youre behind, opp with some dudes, you with lands and maybe a spell or two - do you want a 4/5 that kills any of his attackers and picks them off when they don't attack, instantly stabilizing you, or do you want a 2/2 that can block repeatedly? Or maybe a 5/5 that cant block?

Ok ok sorry I'll stop and admittedly he's a bit of a pet card. But I do think he's very strong, harder to answer and more aggressive. You're right about cabal pit tho :(

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I could run him if for my doubt I could fuel both the Delve to cast, and the Delve to use his ability.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

I could run him if for my doubt I could fuel both the Delve to cast, and the Delve to use his ability.

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Yes, thats a good point.

I dont think creatures are the problem, i am well prepared. I think i preffer another obliterator instead of this creature.

I don't think he's good in a deck with 8 pox, that's for sure.

And the delve has not been too hard for me, only need 1-2 cards in yard to kill things. Many lists have run tombstalkers, he is one more with a utility ability instead of the 5th point of power

Obliterater is great too tho. And fiend is not perfect of course. Just I've had good experience with it so far.

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

I don't think he's good in a deck with 8 pox, that's for sure.

And the delve has not been too hard for me, only need 1-2 cards in yard to kill things. Many lists have run tombstalkers, he is one more with a utility ability instead of the 5th point of power

Obliterater is great too tho. And fiend is not perfect of course. Just I've had good experience with it so far.

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Yes, thank you for sharing ur experience, maybe i give it a try

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

I don't think he's good in a deck with 8 pox, that's for sure.

And the delve has not been too hard for me, only need 1-2 cards in yard to kill things. Many lists have run tombstalkers, he is one more with a utility ability instead of the 5th point of power

Obliterater is great too tho. And fiend is not perfect of course. Just I've had good experience with it so far.

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I think if you're dedicated to 4x Smallpox and 4x Pox, anything besides Bloodghast, Nether Spirit, or Cursed Scroll is probably going to disappoint you. Once you commit to big Pox, it becomes a fairly fast clock anyways. A third of your life total is pretty good for one card, Scroll/Spirit/Ghast chip away and do the rest. If you resolve a 2nd Pox you should be in a very strong position to win.

I think anyone skeptical of not having enough cards in the grave to delve after casting Necropolis Fiend should test it. I have frequently had extra cards in my graveyard after casting Tombstalker. I almost always use as many lands as possible to cast it (just playing around Daze, if relevant) and leave cards in the graveyard anyways. A little practice should smooth out issues. On the topic of 'personal favorite cards', Bitterblossom was always stellar for me in Pox.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I think if you're dedicated to 4x Smallpox and 4x Pox, anything besides Bloodghast, Nether Spirit, or Cursed Scroll is probably going to disappoint you. Once you commit to big Pox, it becomes a fairly fast clock anyways. A third of your life total is pretty good for one card, Scroll/Spirit/Ghast chip away and do the rest. If you resolve a 2nd Pox you should be in a very strong position to win.

I think anyone skeptical of not having enough cards in the grave to delve after casting Necropolis Fiend should test it. I have frequently had extra cards in my graveyard after casting Tombstalker. I almost always use as many lands as possible to cast it (just playing around Daze, if relevant) and leave cards in the graveyard anyways. A little practice should smooth out issues. On the topic of 'personal favorite cards', Bitterblossom was always stellar for me in Pox.

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I allways play 2 biterblossom side. would u mind post your list?

Thank you

I haven't adjusted for the Deathrite/Probe ban yet, and I'm not even sure how to approach it. I've been playing other decks. If I were to build it now, this is roughly where I'd start testing:

3x Bloodghast
4x Bitterblossom
3x Thoughtseize
1x Cabal Therapy
4x Innocent Blood
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
2x Sinkhole
2x Collective Brutality
1x Pox
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Beseech the Queen
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Cabal Pit
1x Bojuka Bog
12x Swamp

Sideboard
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Surgical Extraction
4x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Engineered Plague
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Dismember
2x Open


No Dark Rituals, the format is about 1/2-1 turn slower now. It's better to curve out and big Pox is pretty awesome against the grindier control decks (Stoneblade, Miracles.) I don't want less than 26 lands, and I'd feel better at 27 but I want the Beseech package.

Until recently, I was very happy with my mana-denial build (4 Sinkhole, 2 Nether Void, 2 Chains...).
In this post ban meta, Sinkhole seems strong. But there are so many D&T around ! Aether Vial is an escape door for them, and it is hard to find answers (even if with 1 Ratchet bomb and 1 Pithing needle in the mainboard).
Should I move back to another Pox version ? Or just ajust my SB to D&T ?

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Originally Posted by ParisFlorian

Until recently, I was very happy with my mana-denial build (4 Sinkhole, 2 Nether Void, 2 Chains...).
In this post ban meta, Sinkhole seems strong. But there are so many D&T around ! Aether Vial is an escape door for them, and it is hard to find answers (even if with 1 Ratchet bomb and 1 Pithing needle in the mainboard).
Should I move back to another Pox version ? Or just ajust my SB to D&T ?

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Dread of Night
Engineered Plague


Name 'humans' on Engineered Plague. I wouldn't register a list with less than 3x EP with Pox, and 4 seems correct. Landing the first will be game breaking, landing the 2nd is lights out. Your only real concerns are creatures that get equipped and Batterskull; make sure you have a plan to deal with those and you should have decent odds. Get in under them before a SoFI or Batterskull shows up. I find regardless of my deck choice, D&T is a difficult matchup to sideboard against. It has a lot of raw synergy and redundancy.

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Originally Posted by ParisFlorian

Until recently, I was very happy with my mana-denial build (4 Sinkhole, 2 Nether Void, 2 Chains...).
In this post ban meta, Sinkhole seems strong. But there are so many D&T around ! Aether Vial is an escape door for them, and it is hard to find answers (even if with 1 Ratchet bomb and 1 Pithing needle in the mainboard).
Should I move back to another Pox version ? Or just ajust my SB to D&T ?

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Three needles mainboard is alright. Besides DnT they are an answer to all the planeswalkers we see nowadays.

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Originally Posted by ParisFlorian

Until recently, I was very happy with my mana-denial build (4 Sinkhole, 2 Nether Void, 2 Chains...).
In this post ban meta, Sinkhole seems strong. But there are so many D&T around ! Aether Vial is an escape door for them, and it is hard to find answers (even if with 1 Ratchet bomb and 1 Pithing needle in the mainboard).
Should I move back to another Pox version ? Or just adjust my SB to D&T ?

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Don't forget Night of Souls' Betrayal! But only if you don't run ghast or Bitterblossom. That's practically auto-scoop after sticking a Dread of Night. It's still a weenie deck. Extirpate their shit. They'll be top decking garbage for the rest of the game.:laugh::laugh:

Ok, thanks for the advice !
I will try to find some room for the extra Needle in the main (I already play Night of Soul Betrayal in the SB, along with The Abyss, and I really love it)

Adachi Ryosuke was at EW Japan, and got a camera match in round 6 vs UB Shadow

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/298661819

his match starts at about 5hrs 42min

SPOILERS
- Mr. Safety was right about Beseech seeking lands, he uses it for Maze in g1
- g1 showcases phyrexian totem as a strong closer, esp against Shadow which has no burn
- bridge seems great in the matchup
- his deck looks beautiful
- he keeps it in a BLACK BREIFCASE

Hey all, having a little trouble finishing games.
Any suggestions?

Cursed Scroll x2
Thoughtsieze x4
Dark Ritual x3
Innocent Blood x3
Smallpox x4
Bloodghast x4
Hymn to Tourach x4
Sinkhole x4
Bitter blossom x1
Toxic Deluge x1
Liliana of the Veil x4
Liliana the Last Hope x2

Mishra’s Factory x4
Urborg Tomb of Yogmoth x4
Wasteland x4
Maze of Ith x1
Bajuka Bog x1
Swamp x10

Tormod’s Crypt x3
Ensnaring Bridge x3
Ratchet Bomb x2
Pithing Needle x2
Engineered Plague x2
Surgical Extraction x2
Bontu’s Last Reckoning x1

Shrieking Affliction . Don't bother cutting anything, just add a copy.

Shrieking affliction can be good. Other options are phyrexian totem or necropolis fiend/tombstalker. Since you're on a bloodghast list, buried alive can also be a way to get a ton of pressure. Nicely paired with vengeful pharoah.

How are you liking 4x sinkhole?

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Originally Posted by Disciple of Vess

Hey all, having a little trouble finishing games.
Any suggestions?

Cursed Scroll x2
Thoughtsieze x4
Dark Ritual x3
Innocent Blood x3
Smallpox x4
Bloodghast x4
Hymn to Tourach x4
Sinkhole x4
Bitter blossom x1
Toxic Deluge x1
Liliana of the Veil x4
Liliana the Last Hope x2

Mishra’s Factory x4
Urborg Tomb of Yogmoth x4
Wasteland x4
Maze of Ith x1
Bajuka Bog x1
Swamp x10

Tormod’s Crypt x3
Ensnaring Bridge x3
Ratchet Bomb x2
Pithing Needle x2
Engineered Plague x2
Surgical Extraction x2
Bontu’s Last Reckoning x1

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Bloodghast and Bitterblossom without Cabal Therapy? You're killin' me dude...

Buried Alive gets you triple Bloodghast, which I think is probably the easiest way to quicken your clock. It doesn't require many slots. Collective Brutality is pure gas with Bloodhast, too.

I would do this:

-3 Dark Ritual
-1 Thoughtseize
-2 Sinkhole

+1 Buried Alive
+2 Cabal Therapy
+2 Collective Brutality
+1 Swamp