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I think your name in the Tez match up is correct. This deck has difficulty beating lots of men. And if he makes men, and you ZP, then what? He makes more men. Plating you can beat. It just is difficult. I think name is right anyway. You can always rip a vindicate to get it out of there.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
12 post seems like a miserable match up. Wasteland is good unless he needles it, which is likely. Otherwise, you just have trouble interacting in any meaningful way.
That's probably right. Thopter Foundry is a hard card for us to beat. I found that out against Tezzerator a couple weeks ago. But so is Cranial Plating with Etched Champion. This matchup really made me wish for a third Vindicate. I did get EE on 3 out against his Champion but never was able to pop it safely. Oh well, bad matchup against a relatively unpopular deck isn't the worst thing in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Yeah, he got needle on Wasteland in two of our games, and in the third I just lost to turn 3 show and tell. After the first two rounds last night I was considering boarding Stony Silence since the matchups where I want it aren't great Stoneforge matchups anyway. Honestly I was more annoyed with myself for forgetting my Eye needle when he activated it until it was too late. Even though I got the effect in the end it was just poor form. There were 4 needle effects in play at the time though: Mine on Eye, his on Waste and Stoneforge, and the Revoker on Expedition Map (which was a non-factor due to Humility).
I actually don't think this matchup is terrible for us because we can swords all their baddies except 1 and vindicate their lands if they shut off Wasteland. It takes them quite a while to build up that land base. Not letting them attack with Primetime is key.
True, I did forget about Stone Rain. Still don't think the MU is amazing, but I can see what you are saying. If you have Humility out, and they cast Ulamog, it can destroy the Humility still correct?
Yeah. It's a cast trigger so they get it. Then you respond with Swords. But in my case he also had Karakas. Oh well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I don't think it's a great matchup, but it's a pretty slow setup and we have lots of disruption. Their S&T package is really small, it's not like playing against sneak and show. They want to cast the Eldrazi to get the triggers. So they absolutely have to find a Needle for Wasteland against us — but we have Vindicate, which can blow up the needles if we have waste on board or just take out their crucial lands. Then they have to find Prime Time, but that just gets them tapped lands before we kill it. Then they still have to have enough mana to cast the Eldrazi which isn't just something to be taken for granted. Post, Post, Trop, Trop, Primetime, Eye, Post is the nut draw and they still aren't casting an Eldrazi till turn 5 or 6. Meanwhile you've Seized them, started drawing sac effects off Bob, SFM for something. It's a good deck but not unbeatable for us. I had garbage game 2 and probably should've kept my 7 with the 5 lands. Then in game 3 he just had it all at the end, but I had the board stalled out pretty nicely.
I also might have made a sequencing error, as I O-ringed off an early S&T to nab his Primetime even though i also had Humility. I wanted to keep my 2 power attacker (revoker) for a better clock, but that let him get his Primetime trigger which led to him grabbing the Karakas he needed later. Not letting him get the free lands is probably better.
Arbiter/Mindcensor seem like allstars in the 12 Post matchups. There's certainly a chance they'll naturally ramp into fatties off post, but cutting off Crop Rotation, Eye, and Primetime seems like a pretty good speedbump.
I actually was just thinking about testing Mindcensor over Gatekeeper. So many games are won by a souls token carrying equipment, a 2-power instant speed flyer with a relevant ability seems super good. Especially if you can pass turn 2 on the play with DRS+two lands up, dropping that thing when they try to fetch on their turn would be ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
I love the progress this deck has been making since the beginning of the TNN era.
Has Gatekeeper not been pulling his weight, is Shriekmaw just better, or is this unrelated to the correlation of the two black removal creatures? If it's unrelated, why drop Gatekeeper over the Maw?
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This deck has about 2 or 3 "flex" slots for you to put some favorite cards into.Crusader, revoker, hero,etc.
Shriekmaw can take out emrakul off of SnT, is versatile in casting cost because it has different "modes", and if you get full value, you get a man that can race TNN punch for punch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Gatekeeper I only don't like because of his casting cost. Triple black in a deck where I want to play basic plains, plus 4 wasteland is rough in my eyes.
I play both Shriekmaw and Gatekeeper. I don't think one is strictly better than the other. I play more Shriekmaws (2) than Gatekeepers (1) mainly because it's a 2 mana removal spell.
Since I don't play Abrupt Decay, I feel the need to have a 2 mana removal spell. And I went with a Gatekeeper to help against True-Name Nemesis. And where I'm from there was a lot of Sneak attack going around (less so now). I've killed quite a few Emrakuls with Shriekmaw. LOL, screw Delver I've got my own 3/2 with evasion that just took out an Eldrazi.
Yeah, ever since the TNN era, Deadguy has been on a tear for me.
I agree, there are quite a few flex slots that vary quite a bit from person to person. I like Vindicates, Hero and Shriekmaw. Other people go with Revokers and Sculler. I actually liked the one list with one Sculler main and an E. tutor board. Being able to tutor for Thoughtseize on a dude seems awesome.
Agreed. I was thinking about replacing the one Stillmoon from my list with a single Sculler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
Second this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I like Gatekeeper but I only run one. BBB can be hard to get sometimes.
And since this deck usually doesn't kill that fast, getting to 5 mana to hardcast Shriekmaw is totally possible. A 2 for 1 and getting a creature with fear is awesome. And IMO Shriekmaw goes with the overall Deadguy gameplan... Having the potential to be a 2 for 1 card.
And even if not, like you said, it is a 2 mana removal spell vs delver decks that can't be pierced. The announcers on SCG while I was boarding on cam were wondering why we dont run Path to Exile for Delver. Mostly because stuff like Shriekmaw, Souls, STP, Liliana, and Vindicate already give us an insanely high amount of cards that are awesome vs the deck. The great thing is that most of these cards are generally just really good in a lot of match ups.
I have been running Urborg to make Gatekeeper easier, but I'm definitely trying the Mindcensor plan for a week. So I'll probably go to 4 scrubs and a Karakas or chapel over the urborg. I think flash + evasion is a good enough fit for the deck, but tack on a relevant ability and it seems like it could be an all-star.
My only fear with Shriekmaw is flipping it to Bob. I have been running SDT in that slot to keep my average CMC down and that helps me dig for other removal which has worked pretty well, in addition to helping manage Bob.
Oh. See I've kind of just been like, fuck it. If it flips to bob, it flips to bob.
Didn't realize it was you Megadeus that I was playing against in the top 8. Have to say that I've always been a fan of your comments on here, very level headed and well thought out. Hope to play against you again, also if I ever don't feel like playing ANT I'll check this thread out and see what you have to say.
Does this deck really need Thalia? Considering the amount of non-creature spells in the main, it would seem that the drawback is far greater than the potential benefit. Exactly which MUs do you board in her? Surely running more Canonists would be preferable against combo, especially if you also run Enlightened Tutor.
Thalia is for post board. Most likely you are boarding out a number of spells vs combo like STP's or lingering Souls or something so Thalia hurts you less, plus she slows the opponent down so well. Her combined with Wastelands and a well placed Vindicate can really lock an opponent out of the game. I wouldn't cut her personally. Canonist prevents your opponent from actually killing you, but it doesnt slow their can tripping down and they can simply sculpt a hand with ponders and brainstorms easily to simply like Chain of Vapor it eot and kill you.
Thalia is for sideboard. Running her maindeck while playing a deck with more spells than creatures... is ridiculus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonntag
Combo != storm. Thalia would also hurt combo decks, like Sneak attack or dredge.
Thalia does some work in the tempo match as well. This deck is more prepared to play around her than say, RUG Delver. Thalia is also a better combat creature than Canonist because of 1st strike. You also have the choice of playing her when it's best for you, allowing you to play your relevant spells before dropping her and riding the tempo swing to victory.
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Eh. This deck is so good vs tempo already that I never board her in, but I do see what you are saying.
Please let me know if this doesn't belong here.
I've played with around with this deck for a bit and now I'm buying the cards I'm missing for it. The problem I have is that I only own 3 Scrublands and can't buy the forth right now but want to get some practice with the deck.
Ideally my mana base would be:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
4 Scrublands
1 Bayou
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Swamp
1 Plains
I think my options are using a shock so I have 4 white sources to fetch with Verdant, play another Chapel (but I worry it'll EtB tapped too often) or play another basic (probably a swamp, since that's what the deck want T1). Right now I'm mostly between shock and basic, thinking probably shock is better since I occasionally lose a bit more life but get better consistency out of my fetchs.
Any comment on this would be greatly appreciated.
Running an extra fetch is ok to do tbh. Its almost the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Collman
Cut a Chapel. Add a Karakas. Also, 22 is in my eyes minimum. Do you plan to run Moxes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Collman
Right, haven't thought of that. I'll try to find a Windswept Heath and use an Arid Mesa in the mean time. Thanks a lot!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
You're right that I probably should have a Karakas in there, but that'll have to wait for the time being. They are pretty hard to locate in my country too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valech
22 lands seem fine to me, but I'll keep that in mind going forward.
I'm not using moxes right now. You do get some awesome turn ones with them but often I felt like the card disadvantage was too much for a deck that doesn't really get to draw a lot of cards often, and getting it decayed just felt too bad for me. I'd certainly like to play it, but it never felt right. I'll give it another try when I get more experienced with the deck though.
My current maindeck is close to what Megadeus played last weekend (congrats on the top 8 by the way!), with a pretty different sideboard.
Thanks for the help guys.
Yeah I would try and find a way to put in a karakas. Not a huge fan of Isolated Chapel either. I'd Cut one for either a fetchland or a swamp.
I personally don't bother putting in Thalia vs Tempo decks. I usually board in even more removal and a RIP if it's Goyf based. So I go from 15 removal main to about 18-19 post board.
I like Chrome Mox, but I can understand why people won't use it. For me, I play 2 and see it often enough in opening hands to make it really worth it. Playing Bob, Hymn, Mystic or Thalia first turn can be devastating for the opponent.
Last local before SCG NJ.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lingering Souls
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Bayou
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
Rd 1: vs. noble fish (the looter il kor/edric deck): Game 1 I resolved Zealous Persecution. Game 2 I had an EE on 2 for what seemed like forever after he Stoneforged up a Jitte. I flooded out which allowed him to sequence some stuff onto the battlefield and win. Game 3 I resolved Zealous Persecution. 2-1
Rd 2: vs. UWR delver. Game 1 I resolved Zealous Persecution. game 2 I flooded out again. game 3 went to time but he scooped to me because he felt he took a long time to resolve cantrips. Lucky day for me. 2-1
Rd 3: vs. Tezzeret. game 1 he got thopters going and it looked grim. but I vindicated the foundry and later when he attacked with about 11 of them, including one with a sword of the meek, I flashed in Mindcensor to block the one that was suited up, then resolved Zealous Persecution. Game 2 he opened on Leyline of the void into signet into turn 2 tezz. I meekly played a turn 2 Teeg because of course. But I vindicated tezz and got going from there. However, he ripped Helm and killed me with it. Game 3 I had wasteland for his colored sources and yes, I resolved Zealous Persecution when he had a Baleful Strix guarding a Tezz. 2-1
Rd 4: vs. BUG delver. Dreams crushed as I mulled to 5 in the first game then kept a one-lander in the second game. I hate mulliganing. 0-2
so 2-1-1 but 3-1 when it came to collect store credit. However I will take it, the deck felt great and I really believe in this build for Sunday.
Aven Mindcensor was the absolute nuts. The search hate wasn't really relevant, but being able to deploy a creature at instant speed was as it allowed me to untap and equip or cast other things. We have so much sorcery speed stuff.
And Zealous Persecution... Well it turns out two-mana instant plague wind is good. Every time I cast it not only did I win, but it was a complete blowout and utterly devastating. I finally got to play against some blue creature decks tonight and it showed its power.
It is also hugely important to fetch basics as the noble fish and UWR players died at points with 2 wastelands in play. Now that everything in my deck can be cast off swamp-swamp-plains it feels great. I borrowed the 4th scrub, and I'm honestly not sure If it was that important. Maybe it could just be a swamp or another bayou. Will have to make that call game day if I can't wrangle one by then.
Congrats! ZP doing work! Andyeah, I love being able to sit onthree basics. It feels so good. Mindcensor seems awesome. Sounds like your reasoning is similar to my restoration angel reasoning
Thanks, it felt good to finally get the monkey off my back and finish above .500. Right on time for the open...Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
And yes, Mindcensor vs. Resto was the decision. I knew Gatekeeper had to go because I just wasn't getting value enough times — either they had more than one creature, or I couldn't cast it, or it was just a bear with a Jitte frantically racing a combo deck. Ultimately it came down to CMC and a little bit extra combo hate (we could run into Intuition, Infernal Tutor, Manipulate Fate, Merchant Scroll, Entomb or Imperial Recruiter at any given time.) I never got anyone with a fetchland, but it's just great value — 2/1 flying EOT works, especially when you can untap, equip and bash. That's also why I went up to 4 SFM.
I also was happy with the performance of the second EE that I cut Spirit of the Labyrinth for (Now watch me play High Tide in round 1 of the open...)
I guess I only have a couple questions to answer for Sunday:
—Am I OK against show and tell? My plan now is to side out ZP and STP for Needle effects, O-ring, humility, and Enlightened Tutor. Then trim a bob and SFM for Thalias. i think that plus discard plus Mindcensor for their fetches and Intuitions is solid. Can't do much about tomb, lotus petal, blargh of course.
—these are the lands I have to choose from if I can't get another scrubland: Swamp, Savannah, Urborg, Verdant Catacombs, Godless Shrine, Isolated Chapel. Right now I'm just leaning toward Swamp, especially since I added a Karakas as another white source when I cut the Urborgs. Savannah is good in matches where I board in Teeg but bad almost any other time, I think. A single Urborg could save me from having to fetch in the late game if I'm trying to preserve my life total for Bob, and make Karakas into a dual, but opens me up to more wastable hands.
Your game is decent vs show and tell. My main board revokers give me better game,but I think you can win game one with decent consistency,and post board your needles don't get pyroclasmed. Seems fine. As for the land, I'd add a fetch. It's essentially a scrub, plus it's more food for the death rite
So you are no longer playing with shriekmaws? Its good against both delver, fair decks and the declining show and tell decks.
I'm still on Shriekmaw as a Singleton in the main. I'll be playing Deaths Shadow ale for fun this week, but my normal build is still on Shriekmaw. It is awesome vs the fair decks.
Are you runnig Range of Eos in that Death's Shadow version? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
That.... Sounds sweet. Possibly too sweet to be good. Inaugural run was a disappointing 1-2 finish. Meh whatever. I doubt it was optimal, as I got lazy and kinda just made it my SCG list and cut good cards for bad ones. Deaths Shadow was actually REALLY good all night. Will probably play it again tomorrow. The thrill of balancing out your life total with fetches, shocks, thoughtseizes, and deathrite activations is really fun. Also pretty hilarious when you opponent is forced to chump block your deaths shadow who is randomly like an 8/8. Unfortunately I never got to live the dream and Orzhov Charm a Deaths Shadow back to life since I played vs dumb Swords to Plowshares decks.
With death's shadow kinda want probes and Probes are so sexy with cabal therapy :P When I played with death's shadow I used Dismember, probe, therapy and a singleton ranger of eos, searching for either pair of deathrite / Death's shadow is sweet as hell.
I want to like shriekmaw but i can't find a good cut for it and it makes me nervous with Bob. I feel like I'll regret it against S&S at some point.
I was hoping that I can get some opinions on my sb plans for the open Sunday. List is here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post812830
BUG/RUG: -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Zealous Persecution, +1 Enlightened Tutor, +2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Rest in Peace. I think I might want Oblivion Ring against BUG for Tombstalker. I also considered Humility but it seems very ambitious against Wasteland-Daze decks.
Patriot: -3 Thoughtseize, +1 Enlightened Tutor, +2 Engineered Explosives. Basically I side out Thoughtseize against any bolt deck.
Blade variants/random TNN decks like Bant/UR delver: I think the same as Patriot? Should I also trim IoKs for needle effects for Deathblade's Jaces and Creeping Tar Pits? I haven't really thought about this one since it's not that popular at my store.
Elves: -1 SoFI, -2 Vindicate, -1 Lingering Souls, -3 Liliana, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Pithing Needle, +2 Engineered Explosives, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Enlightened Tutor. I think I might want Teeg here too but it turns off EE if they're on the overrun plan. Too much considering maindeck is good against them?
Storm: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Vindicate, -3 Lingering Souls, +2 Rest in Peace, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Enlightened Tutor. I think I keep zealous in in case of Empty the Warrens, right? And souls can go out because at 3 mana sorcery speed I should have better stuff to do?
Show and Tell: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Zealous Persecution, -1 Dark Confidant, -1 Stoneforge Mystic, +2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Humility, +1 Enlightened Tutor. I guess I could take Vindicate out instead of the 4th bob/sfm but it does kill Sneak Attack + Jace after board.
Reanimator: -2 Zealous Persecution, -3 Thoughtseize, +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Humility. I guess O-ring should come in here too. Do I want lili in this matchup or is she just a 3 mana sorcery speed edict at best? I figure it's safe to keep IoK in because it can't accidentally discard their fatties (like if they brainstorm in response and keep a hand of land, land, Griz, Griz while floating a Reanimate).
Miracles: -4 STP, -2 Zealous Persecution, -1 Sensei's Divining Top, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Engineered Explosives, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Oblivion Ring. So I can safely name Top with a needle effect. I added an extra EE to my board to deal with Counterbalance, but Terminus seems like the real problem here. I think my plan would be to hold Aven Mindcensor as long as I can so I can deploy it post boardwipe (whenever that may be). Also worth bringing Thalia in here? Is IoK good against them?
These are the decks I expect to see in force, anything else I should also be extra prepared for?
What's the best plan we can have against Punishing Fire and Loam decks?
I usually try to get a quick batterskull out against PFire and ocasionally get to equip something with a SoF&I but thats pretty slow, fragile and hardly guarantees a win.
Loam decks I feel get too much CA and I can't catch up (plus usually play PFire too). If i'm lucky enough I'll have my 3 basics in play and they'll have a huge Knight and StP is not that great when my only clock is 2 1/1s. Maze of Ith is also pretty good since it blanks the batterskull or equipment + evasive dude plan completely.
I have RIP + E Tutor in the side as my only grave hate right now, but even if I do find it they can usually decay/golgari charm the RIP after a few turns and I only play the one. Should I play 2 instead?
I'm really not sure what's the best way to approach the match up.
Yes to multiple RiPs. It's also one of your best sb cards against RUG, Jund, and TA. You might also want Surgical/Extirpate. Still not going to be a great matchup though, your discard is mostly dead, they play bigger guys, and have a better late-game card advantage engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Collman
You definitely want more than one RiP. It's good in so many matchups. If they play a Maze, Needle it — it wastes a land drop for them. Bringing in Revoker against the PFire deck seems uncomfortable though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Collman
Also, EE on 0 hits Chalice of the Void and Mox Diamond.
Revoker is interesting vs lands. Sometimes shutting down EE is actually just REALLY good. Also well timed wastelands on Green sources plus a revoker on a diamond and you can cut them from green mana. Yeah my board is pretty weak vs Lands and PFire in general. I think the remedy would be at least a second, maybe a third RIP. At some point I'm going to try a Non ETutor sideboard. Just dunno exactly what to put into it. Thinking along the lines of:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Perish
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Choke
2 Lifebane Zombie
1 Disenchant
2 Engineered Explosives