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Unburial rites?Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Stick everything in the bin, use the cabal therapies you find to get rid of FoW or whatever with your mongrel and other random creatures (dryad arbor, narcomeba?) then reanimate old Borby boy and Borbs your uncle.
If you need it, memory's journey to stop yourself from decking if you have to pass the turn.
First draft:
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 The Gitrog Monster
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Life from the Loam
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
http://s8.postimg.org/t4p0a329x/Dora_Cookie.jpg
Junk seemed the most solid choice to abuse lands. KotR, Karakas and Horizon Canopy made most sense to me. The list is both very close to being NicFit, but also go into a more Loam like play. Most of the land base is a mix of NicFit and Maverick as i played it. Before exploring anything deeper then this i want to test it.
Diabolic Intent is solid here, mainly because of Life from the Loam.
Horizon Canopy + SuperFrog get you 2 draws, which seems nice. Canopy can also fix mana.
KotR makes it possible to abuse the land base in conjunction with the frog. Adding DD/Stage enable another (very solid) line of play that is supposed to enable a win now button.
Titania (plus Sylvan Safekeeper) is another way to power out the land abuse.
Also with Meren, Arbor, Safekeeper, Courser, Nissa, Titania, KotR, Loam and whatnot i see soo many techy lines, synergy and mini combo's.
Edit: i do not want to add Wasteland in here since we are not trying to be a prison deck or attack the manabase. I did, however, think about Ghost Quarter to attack basics coming out of Dora. Crop Rotate might be a nice touch aswell indeed like Jain_mor said. Maybe something like Fatal did in his Cloudpost NicFit.
Dryad Arbor... that's a card I forgot about... Sac to Cabal Therapy or Phyrexian Tower with Bigfrog on the board. Or, just a chump block.
:D That's almost exactly the build I've been tweaking and playing a lot on Cockatrice. Without the Froggy ofcourse. VERY fun to play!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
I like where that is headed, but crop rotation is a card that people have played with before to reliably get phyrexian tower, when you start adding dark depths and life from the loan it gets awfully tempting.
I agree though that KotR and white in general looks promising (as you said karakas and canopy are great)
I wonder what our collective hive mind can come up with. Hopefully it's a deck that has the resiliency and control aspect of standard Junk lists but also has a combo finish
Edit for Bobmans edit (: yea I think I would look at cutting one of the 3 drops and one of the 5 drops (there's just so many!) and try 2 crop rotation, maybe they are awful but it makes veteran explorer so much more consistent and explosive, and it makes the dark depths plan a lot more reliable too. You're also at 60 so you can add one more card from there, probably another removal spell (I'd personally cut the deluge, pulse and a SDT and play 3 path to exile and 3 decay, but that's a whole other discussion haha)
The best perks of white splashes are:
* Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile
* Sigarda, Host of Herons
* Sun Titan (some builds)
* KotR (other builds)
* Disenchant effects (mainly, Qasali Pridemage or Harmonic Sliver)
* SB anti-storm cards
* Planeswalker builds (Walker Rock)
My current list, Frog added instead Tusk.
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Vindicate
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
The list has 61 cards. I counted it, plus the innitial list made in cockatrice (minus the cookie monster).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
3 and 5 drops quite a lot. KotR is obviously imprtant here. Nissa may be the weaker link. And so may be Tusk.
Not sure yet. First i want to jam some games with this before changing anything else.
Siege Rhino (x4, go big or go home)... Gaddock Teeg... Stoneforge Mystic...Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
@Bobmans, haha my bad, physics PhD student over here who can't count ;) Happens all the time..
Hah, its always the simple things in life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Looks solid. PrimeTime is a consideration aswell. Seems that your list has slightly more focus, which is a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker
Something of note to Scapewish players, as well, about The Toad: he ramps directly into a lethal shift by virtue of his exploration effect, while also being a massive 6/6 draw engine. Admittedly his sacrifice clause hurts the Scapeshift plan, but at the same time, you only NEED so many lands in play, and the deck frequently ends up with a pile of extra lands lying around, beyond what's even needed for Shifting. Once you get to 7+, he actually helps draw you into the kill, which I think is nice.
It bears testing, not sure it'll prove good enough, but it fits in with Scape's overall gameplan nicely.
Your choice for Horizon Canopy makes me wanna put it back to my list, pretty good without the Froggy but now even stronger. If not playing Paths or Swords, i'd suggest Maze of Ith at least in SB to be ready for Marit Lage of your opponent. I've also played with Dustbowl or a singleton Wasteland which is very nice with Titania, and helps to get rid of annoying Karakas and such.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
And from time to time if you gotta go all in and live dangerous, Tomb of Urami is for that. :)
Have a blast testing/tweaking your list!
I'm almost sure that Frog find place in Aggro Loam for sure. Here it's still very nice value creature which must be StP as soon as possible by opponent which I like. It also can give you instant value by playing right after GSZ/Cast a fetchland which he allow so even with StP in opponent hand we still do 2-for-1 which is great !
About combo With Darkmor Salvage and Sesmic Assult it's more like option for R/G lands or Aggro loam to finish game little faster (still probably not enough fast vs most combo's) since you need to have Frog on table, maybe in dredge, but on the other side you have Beasts like Griselbrand which have lifelink + flying which looks little better :-).
Btw in Junk list you can use some tricks like Flagstones of Trokair, I would also use some wasteland (even 1 !) along with KotR it can be huge vs some decks without basics at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker
http://s8.postimg.org/t4p0a329x/Dora_Cookie.jpg
:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
And then some.
Wow, that frog is worth considering to say the least. I like it more than Titania especially because he has a stronger body, but unfortunately he suffers from being a legend. I'll test with him asap.
You know, it might give GB nic fit some legs again.
And if you want to go combo you can play crop rotation instead of the Knights.
Knight is also just an amazing beater. Sometimes, you want to suck the will to live from your opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
@ Frog-guy and the interection with Dakmor Salvage:
1 - We're not the combo with seismic assault or borbo, but it's indeed GG
2 - Wild Mongrel is a possible GSZ'able engine + kill condition
3 - Retrace cards look very impressive: Raven's Crime / Flame Jab / Worm Harvest / Waves of Aggression (lol this one)
Side notes:
* Cycling lands (Barren Moor / Tranquil Thicket) become 1 mana -> Draw 2
* Crop Rotation and/or KotR become huge. The same goes for Life from the Loam
The new X2GU clone might be interesting as well, since it's a GSZ target.
All the pet-cards! But seriously, that frog has potential. I think you need to combo it with KotR / Titania / Loam to get any value though.
This could be pretty fun.
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 GitFrog
1 Titania
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Life from the Loam
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Culling the Weak
3 Crop Rotation
2 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cabal Pit
1 Thespians Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Tabernacle
1 Ghost Quarter
If your build already includes courser its fair to play a single frog and have it act as a draw engine. thw card screams to be built around but im not sure trying to jam some combo kills with it in the nic fit shell is the best use of it and our card slots. it seems much more at home in loam. its a shame lands edge is only players or there might be something here sadly tho rrr for sesmic assault is out of our league. courser+mina+frog+prime time screams for a jund pfire build. knight tempts us to run a lot of utility lands in a deck that already has trouble finding room for just 3. between rhino and baneslayer i dont think this really adds anything junk wants. jund however needed the big body undercosted zenithable must answer threat. just my two cents but i was looking at:
4 vet
1 deathrite
1 scooze
2 courser
1 witness
1 nissa
1 mina and denn
1 meren
1 gitfrog
1 titania/tusk
1 primeval titan
4 zenith
3 top
1 intent
4 cabal therapy
2 liliana
3 abrupt decay
3 punishing fire
3 deed
23 lands
2 bayou
2 badlands
3 grove of burnwillows
3 verdant catacombs
3 wooded foothills
3 forest
2 swamp
2 mountain
1 tower
1 wolf run
1 dryad arbor
14 g 13b 13r
So... this board exploded, lol.
Nic Fit w/ Culling the Weak, I'm in! I've always wanted to sac an Explorer to one.
I'm not sure about the frog just yet. To some degree it's a Spiritmonger that ate both a Phyrexian Arena and an Exploration, but it's still 5 mana and slowly eats our lands. It also doesn't have evasion, trample or protection from STP. Meren, Dryad Arbor & the frog form a nice engine, so there's that. It also plays well with Courser and the upcoming Tracker guy. That's a lot of CA on assorted sticks.
I dunno. I've got to think about it. See what I can come up with.
I'm definitely going to be brewing "Aggro Loam: The Frogman Chronicles" over the Easter weekend. Stay tuned!
So I've also been messing with the Gitrog stuff, came up with this:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Wild Mongrel
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Worm Harvest
2 Life from the Loam
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
Side:
4 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
Basically Dredge stuff for tons of value, with a Worm Harvest and Garruk Relentless to kill with. Sylvan Safekeeper can protect Gitrog from Swords and kills with Titania / probably kills with Gitrog as well (if you need to go off, float a load of G and leave one land alive to Crop Rotate, draw a pile of cards and hope for gsz/mongrel and rotation/salvage into the kill.
I'm tempted to put in Lake of the Dead as a ramp / Rotation target. Might be a bit deep.
Why oh why my good sir are you skipping on the low hanging fruit?
Play more fetchlands man!
Also, imagine what'd change if your Frogmonster'd just be a Sigarda.
Exactly, nothing. You'd win whenever the 5-drop'd hit the field. Seems like a lot of effort for very little result, especially since Sigarda is much harder to kill than the Frogmonster. This is just succumbing to The Danger Of Cool Things.
If you are to run it, just do so and enjoy the little extra value it gives you. Don't bother with building an entire deck around it as long as you're not going for a combo finish. Heck, even in LED dredge it's borderline unplayable. If that deck gets to resolve Dread Return, it just Dread Returns a target that wins them the game on the spot.
I'm honestly sorry if I'm being a dick, by the way. That's not my intent.
I'm playing seven fetchlands already. Considering my non-utility lands at the moment are 4 duals, 7 fetches and 6 basics, I guess a Swamp and maybe a Bayou could probably become fetchland #8 and 9.
Frog vs. Sigarda:
- Sigarda is harder to kill.
- Works with zero support cards.
- Frog kills faster (untapping with him probably wins in one turn, Sigarda takes three or so)
- Doesn't require white, which means you get to play tons of strong utility lands.
- Gets some value if they Terminus you straight away (land drop, crack fetch, etc)
Dredge wont' play the Toad because he's strictly worse than Griselbrand in that deck.
Toad and Sigarda are both basically unkillable against non-white decks unless they're running Terminate or something - Toad lists are going to have Arbor and a lot of fetches, so I'm not too worried about Liliana, and it's not like he can be decayed or bolted.
Untapping with just the Frog isn't all that impressive. It costs you a land, draws you an extra card and beats for 6 if it isn't blocked. Untapping with Frog and X and Y is. But so is untapping with Sigarda and 2 Siege Rhinos.
Also - it only gets you value right away if you have a land in hand and if you can crack a fetch.
You forgot an upside of Sigarda - she forces you to play white :laugh:. White forces you to run Siege Rhinos and PtEs :tongue:.
And I thought that fetching Dryad Arbor to dodge Lilliana was my thing :laugh:. I'm glad my craziness is rubbing off on people!
Alright sure, untapping with the frog tilts the game massively in your favour if you have one of GSZ, Rotation, Salvage, Intent(+creature/fetch), or any discard outlet in your hand or on the battlefield.
I dunno, I just really dislike having 'turn my monsters sideways for 3-4 turns, starting on turn five' as a primary win condition. It feels so horribly slow and risky to try and get anywhere with it because basically everyone has a plan A that's better than your method of ending the game.
Welcome to Junk Fit! And somehow we're still the scourge of any fair deck. So what's up with that?
Jund Fit, BUG Fit and Pod Fit are even slower since they have less efficient removal and worse clocks.
Aaaaaaannnnd yet ALL of those decks have better combo match-ups than junk fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I have played against jbones junk lists twice with my current build of a pretty basic bug midrange deck and while I originally thought I would be unfavored after playing the games I do not feel that way at all anymore. I love playing nic fit but ppl on this thread are way too idealistic.
Yes, they do!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
And that's funny, in my experience Junk Fit is heavily favored vs. anyBUG.dec.
This thread is mostly too friendly. We should try to pull Lemnear in here to sort that out, lol.
From the games I played the issues I saw wereQuote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
-Liliana was a big issue. Even just upticking was a real threat unless you had enough lands to do everything. This would be a bigger issue for those that have decided that Decay is not a legacy playable spell.
- Jace is an even bigger issue and most decks that play jace play some amount of basics meaning vet is very dangerous. (I hover between 2-3 basics)
- When discard bounces off each other and planeswalkers and artifacts and enchanments are in the GY goyf is a monster and kills VERY fast. This is also compounded when one deck has access to bs and ponder to search while the other has to hope it has top or draws gas.
- Most bug decks (shardless and midrange) play more CA than the junk decks. BUT that CA also comes naturally over the course of the game. I want to play a hymn, strix, snapcaster over a few turns so I naturally pick up some CA. Aside from Deed Nic fit cannot do this.
This is why I do not agree with running things like courser. That card is just not good. ramping is a fine strategy. ramping to play mediocre cards is not.
- Try that vs. 8 green fetches and Dryad Arbor (or shoving more... beef... in her face than she can handle)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
- Jace is a dick, I agree with you. If they ever come out with a 1 mana "Jace To Exile", I'm running it!
- Path to Exile & redundancy in GSZ + Diabolic Intent. Also, one could theoretically "fix" this by running 7/8 Top/Library-like effects to mirror the number of Brainstorm/Ponder your opponent has.
- CA sure, threats not so much. Nic Fit has a lot of card quality. A lot of cards demand an immediate answer. In the late game, Meren also often is a nice source of CA (and threats or recurring PtEs etc.).
Courser is library manipulation above all else. It clears away lands so you actually get to draw gas. It also allows you to peek when to or not to fetch/GSZ/etc.
-If I can turn Lily into a sinkhole effect that sticks around vs nic fit I would take that EVERYTIME. Especially vs a junk build as a Sigarda makes her obsolete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
- Turn 2 jace in nic fit is a sweet play. I didnt get it very often but the tower opener into turn 2 jace was amazing.
- I absolutely think if you are playing a nic fit deck you need multiple top/library effects. Ptruths also helps in the CA role but having cheap early filtering is very important. The deck loses when you draw the wrong half of the deck just like most non cantrip decks. Diabolic intent does not count. That card is another in a long list of nic fit cards that is good when things are going well and tough to use when not. Great for tutoring against combo decks though.
- Sure nic fit has lots of high powered threats. so does ALL of legacy! Take a real look at other decks and tell me those cards dont demand an answer. Most players will be able to decide which part of the deck is important to deal with. If I go goyf into tnn whelp I know keeping you off deed for 2 turns should probably be enough to win so you get to have everything else.
- Cards like Nissa or Courser are just not good enough. They have these cute interactions that seem great and then I am sure most ppl just deal with it or ignore it and kill you.
- The reason this deck struggles against even supposed good match ups is that it requires a multiple of things to happen. Delver decks and other bigger midrange decks only need lands and spells and they get to play. They put it on you stop them.
Honestly I just want to make a Frog Monster deck say "Ya Cant!".
Now who's being too idealistic? Suddenly it's OK to count T2 4 drops as "a thing" and ignore any countermagic one might face? Sheesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
T1 Veteran Explorer into T2 Phyrexian Tower with the coast clear to cast some 4 CMC card is magical christmasland. Especially when running only 1 Tower.
Same goes for going "Goyf, TNN, whatever-I-need-to-stop-whatever-you-can-throw-at-me-over-the-course-of-several-turns, I win". When are games ever that easy? One doesn't deal with that exclusively via Pernicious Deed. PtE buys you some time. Chumpblockers buy you some time. GSZ into Glissa helps. Golgari Charm solves part of the problem etc. etc. It's never as clearcut as you make it out to be.
- I agree that turn 2 jace is not a realistic expectation for this deck. In fact I said I didnt get it very often. Blue nic fit also has FOW so yes playing big spells in that deck is much safer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
- So You need 1 of your 4 therapies to stop a fow. In a deck with little manipulation that is an issue. You also have to contend with counters like spell pierce and daze.
- going goyf into anything is absolutely reasonable for any goyf deck. Discard and counters are going to FOR SURE be there along with whatever the threat is.
-gsz into a glissa is a 4 mana play (glad we have 4 mana and can tap out for a sorcery speed spell so we are halfway there) that will die to every single removal spell known to man. You know what is probably stuck in my hand for the last 3-4 turns? Removal.
- I understand that these decks have answers. I played them exclusively for 3 years before taking the last 6 months off from vet. I am not trying to put the deck down and say dont brew. The deck is very fun and customizable. That doesnt mean we shouldnt try to optimize builds. when I see people play things like vraska I think "this is why this deck goes nowhere". That being said, magic is about fun so if people enjoy playing those cards then that is what matters. It doesnt mean I will agree with the card choice in the abstract.
Nice posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
The points you made are not only true, but the very reason I have always said that:
-Courser is not a card that belongs to the legacy format
-Not playing AD (in GBx colors) in legacy is absurd
-3 mana catch all removal is needed at the very least as a 1 of
-Liliana is JTMS 2.0. AD is needed against her
All this considering that I encounter a lot of planeswalkers online. Shardless is not the easiest match up as it would seem to be after reading some posts in this thread.