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Karakas and revoker usually do nothing against Omnitell. And Teeg don't disturb the normal winning route (show->Omniscience->Wish->Eladamri's call->Emrakul) of Omnitell.
In the DnT vs Omnitell mu, the most important card is Thalia, undoubtedly. With Thalia and port in play, Omnitell cannot do anything dangerous before reach 5 mana.
Also, your heroine received a new version:
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...8526083522.JPG
i'd rather my deck be either all non-foil or foil. i might grab one just for the hell of it thoQuote:
Originally Posted by Tokugawa
I liked some of the sketch ideas better.
I don't think that I have ever cared about the art all that much. But I gotta tell ya, the freckles just do it for me.
It looks like Kaley Cuoco with freckles, which I guess isn't the worst thing. Some of those sketches would probably have turned out better, but it's not bad.
So I went to Eternal Clash today and I played a deck list that I've never seen anyone play anything close to, nor have I played anything close to that myself.
The list I played was:
Creatures (26):
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Mother of Runes
4x Flickerwisp
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Magus of the Moon
2x Serra Avenger
Non-creature spells (11):
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
4x Ęther vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
Lands (23):
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
3x Windswept Heath
2x Marsh Flats
2x Plateau
4x Plains
1x Cavern of Souls
Sideboard:
3x Sudden Demise
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Rest in Peace
2x Council's Judgement
1x Cataclysm
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Containment Priest
Here's how my tournament went:
Round 1: Death and Taxes 0-2
I played against the guy who lost to Thomas Enevoldsen in the top 8 of GP Strasbourg, he's apparently himself on D&T now but with Leonin Arbiter.
I got crushed but it was just one of those unwinnable matches. He drew 4x Swords to Plowshares in game 1 which lasted about 6 turns and I drew 0 in 2 games.
Round 2: Welder MUD 2-0
My match was the first of all the matches to finish that round. He kept bad hands and got crushed both games by wasteland and Revoker.
Sucks that I only play against basically Blood Moon proof decks so far but oh well.
Round 3: Esper Deathblade 2-1
Blood Moon AND Wasteland/Rishadan Port weak deck? SCORE!
Game 1 I get a game loss for an error in my deck list, something I've never done or gotten before but I had not slept a lot the past 2 days so I was really groggy during the tournament and especially when I wrote the deck list in the train the morning on the tournament.
Game 2 I play a bunch of creatures, they get Swords to Plowshares'd and on turn 4 I vial in a Magus of the Moon vs. his 3 nonbasic lands and that is the game.
Game 3 I play an Ęther Vial and double Wasteland + Thalia him to death.
Round 3: ANT 1-2
In game 1 I play Revoker on Lotus Petal and use Magus of the Moon to shut him off black mana completely. Game 2 he kills me on turn 2 and game 3 I draw nothing but 1 revoker and he goes to 2 life on Ad Nauseam and still gets there. Again not much I could do.
Round 4: Affinity 2-0
Jitte taking care of business and working over time
Round 5: Esper Delver 2-0
I Moon him and then I moon him
Round 6: ???
This round is completely blank for me but I can only assume that I mooned someone, but I won this round so I'm 4-2 at the time.
Round 7: 12 Post MUD 2-1
Really good match up but he got an early Metalworker down and played Wurmcoil + Myr Battlesphere on turn 3 or 4. I then fogged the Wurmcoil Engine for 2 turns with Flickerwisp and killed him anyways. Game 2 he drew all his 4 Cloudposts and played turn 3 Lodestone Golem, delaying my turn 3 Magus of the Moon and then he landed turn 4 Ugin which I couldn't do anything about. Game 3 I just played a few threats and ported him to death with my 3 Rishadan Port.
So I ended 5-2 good for 12th place out of 71 players. I think it's ok, and I have no regrets. I would've loved to back to back top 8 this tournament but it wasn't meant to be.
I am super happy with the red splash and I will continue to test it, I am looking for other people to test it as well, and I am looking for feedback definitely.
Already ordered my Foil Magus of the Moons and I am looking at foil fetches and alpha Plateaus now, that's how much I believe in the viability of this splash :smile:
Magus of the Moon + Port/Wasteland seems pretty weird, at the very least.
If you go for the read splash, why not try out Imperial Recruiter? Too slow for what it does?
Sudden Demise looks like a pretty cool sweeper.
Definitely a +1 on recruiter, he's so dreamy. I would probably cut down on then magus, sfm, revoker and even Thalia counts to run him. Plus you can turn those avengers into toolbox one-ofs in Mirran Crusader and Containment Priest/Canonist/Mindcensor. Not to mention Flickerwisp shenanigans!Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Also, demise vs Elves sounds great.
Red death sounds like a cool name
@Bahra: I think you should add another red source to the deck. You seemed to be stuck on your stuff more often than I liked it in yesterday's stream, so I went back and did the basic math since the green splash worked rather well.
Thing is, you need at least 8 red sources to make the maindeck work, and that doesn't even include running Magus + Demise after boarding (which would be around 10 red sources if you ran the full set of 7 red cards). You currently run 7 true red sources (fetches + duals), plus Cavern as so-so red source. Vial is nice and all, but definitely can't be counted as a red mana source since top decking it makes you wait another 3 turns for action.
Thus, I would definitely try out another red mana source to smooth things out. No need to scratch on the bare minimum.
E-Tutor + Blood Moon for the board also comes into mind for the sideboard.
@Barbed Blightning: Recruiter is something that needs to be tested out first, though. I talked to Bahra yesterday when he streamed and he thinks Recruiter is way too slow, and I also have my doubts until serious testing proves otherwise. He's probably great if you can grab a T1 Vial and play him on T3, but otherwise, you just time-walked yourself. I thought about initially running about 2 copies since that seems less excessive in terms of speed and cuts from the MD.
@neddsaurus: Isn't Red Death already a RB deck? I'd prefer something like "Bloody Taxes", as it includes a reference to Blood Moon, too.
I will try adding another red source to the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
After hearing more about I'm warming up to Imperial Recruiter and I will test it to see how it does in the deck.
Thanks for the feedback so far guys.
It just occured to me:
How about Mastery of the Unseen in our 75 for grindy match-ups? It guarantees us with a steady stream of new creatures (with Flash), and the lifegain could be quite something as well. Aside from the high mana investment, one disadvantage I see is that turning your creatures face up don't trigger SFM, Revoker and Flickerwisp, thus requiring a Flicker effect to get full value out of them.
Thoughts?
Death and Taxes with red splash? Sounds like... Bloody Taxes :cool:
Taxes and periods.Quote:
Originally Posted by kryllex
While the formats are different, this is actually a much-discussed idea in the Modern DnT deck, and the mana denial path is largely the same. It is powerful, but it also does in your mana base. You have to have at least a Vial or 1-2 Plains or you can mess yourself up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahra
Since I run the Green slash, but I don't run 4 G spells (only 3), and I can run Horizon Canopy, I only run 4 fetches and 2 Savannah without hurting my mana too much, and I don't run anything that makes my own duals bad.
I like the basic idea and the build, though. There seem to be a lot of decks that just lost if you resolve Magus.
I just played a daily with this list: http://i.imgur.com/UN9akI7.png
I tested Imperial Recruiters and they were good.
Round 1: Deadguy Ale 2-0
He drew a lot of discard and Liliana but Imperial Recruiter allowed me to play around Liliana's edict and fetch Stoneforge Mystic that got Jitte and sealed the game. In game 2 he plays Lingering Souls and Liliana again and I again Imperial Recruiter for Stoneforge Mystic for Umezawa's Jitte and then I Sudden Demise away all his Spirits and lock the game with Jitte.
Round 2: UWR Delver 2-1
This picture sums it up:
http://i.imgur.com/gwWZNjt.png
I would've lost terribly without Revoker and Magus of the Moon. I got the Mother of Runes active a little later.
Round 3: UWR Miracles 2-0
Typical miracles match, I grind him out and kill him with Thalia + Karakas game 1.
Game 2 I needle Jace and play Revoker on Sensei's Divining Top. I fetch Sword of Fire and Ice and beat him down until he kills the sword and then regular beats gets him.
In the end I was sitting with 2 Imperial Recruiters in hand (which I COULD cast) but they were really nice to have as quadruple insurance against Terminus (both being 2 threats in one).
Round 4 UWR Stoneblade 2-0
Game 1 he gets TNN + Jitte online but I fog it by playing a Flickerwisp, flickering my Flickerwisp and then flickering his Jitte in my end step. He gets counters on Jitte the following turn but 2 Flickerwisp 1 Thalia and a Mirran Crusader is too much for Jitte and his 1 life.
Game 2 I wasteland him and Port him out of the game while beating down with a Phyrexian Revoker that's naming Umezawa's Jitte (which he has sitting on his board).
So 4-0 against some very competent players, the Deadguy Ale and the UWR Stoneblade player were very good, the UWR Delver player was kind of new and the Miracles player was average.
I ran into 3 bad match ups and crushed which felt really good and would've been very hard without the red splash.
I have tried literally for years to come up with a taxer/punisher deck. I even got my last Recruiter for the job (you may have heard me grousing on the need for a search creature in D+T). I have some versions for you here. None of them work, and I will give you some insight why to help any of you along who wish to pursue it. There *SHOULD* be a deck in here somewhere, but it has bedeviled me for so long.
We really should have a new thread though.
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Aether Vial
4 Ankh of Mishra
3 Chrome Mox
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Mother of Runes
1 Zo-Zu the Punisher
1 Avalanche Riders
My initial try. This deck could not be counted on to succeed either as an aggro deck or as a control deck so I often ended up with stupid card combinations that did not have the same game in mind. Recruiter was a bomb though.
I realized at some point that the deck probably needs Mother of Runes because the creatures are acting as hosers. You would think that I would have figured that from the start. The next list went into the direction of...
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Mother of Runes
Winds of Change
Oblation
...that I looked into with a fellow who calls himself Poppeleseed. I was able to live the dream often enough to keep me interested, but it could not deal with the format effectively.
This is his next list that he said also did not work.
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Plateau
2 Mountain
8 Plains
3 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Containment Priest
2 Blood Moon
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Oblation
4 Magma Jet
The biggest issue I faced was that my opponents were able to do better than me under the duress of the punisher elements and were not sufficiently taxed under the taxing elements. As a result, I would often be in games where my opponent got out in front and were able to close the deal while I piled on harsh, but ultimately unsuccessful control and damage stuff that were hurting me in addition to my opponent.
Some parting ideas are that Cavern is great with Chalice of the Void because you can still keep the 1-mana dudes. (really fun in a deck with Spirit of the Lab and Arcane Denial too [counter your own creature if you want to]) I think that I would actually try Chalice, Vial, Cavern, and Ankh in my next version. Thalia should still be at the center of any of these plans.
I can not say for sure of course, but the problem seems to be that your lists are too "all in". At least that is the difference between yours and my list, and I am really liking my results :)
My list is just D&T splashing for Magus of the Moon, Imperial Recruiter and Sudden Demise.
I have no acceleration and I am using Magus of the Moon as just an additional taxing/disrupting effect. As well as it being a surprise factor that will get my opponents when they don't expect it.
So far I have a decent win percentage with the deck and I have beaten match ups that are very bad otherwise. I think there's a lot of potential and it just needs some more work and it could be really good (it seems to already be pretty good :laugh: )
You are correct. Actually, I am sure that there are lots of problems with these and the other countless lists I have tried. To reverse the issue, the lack of a problem with what you are doing stems from the fact that it is based upon a proven winner. What I and my cohorts had been doing was to try to stake out an entirely new strategy. We have yet to discover it. I am sure that it is there, but it has gotten to the point that I feel I am looking for the northwest passage.
Now that Recruiter has turned out to be good, wouldn't you reconsider inclusing a Mangara (I know, the cuts are hard) as tutor target, Bahra?
Yes, it blows when you have Magus out, but in the end, it's the same as if you don't have Karakas available. Getting virtual 3 copies of Mangara for a single slot doesn't sound too shabby, though.
This is my stab at a Red Death list (serious props to whoever suggested that name): http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/29-03-15-red-death/Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
One-of Mangara, Crusader and Mindcensor as Recruiter targets.
You're probably going to need another red source. I didn't even notice that Bahra cut one of his Karakas copies when suggesting Mangara.
I'm not a fan of Aven Mindcensor. The card by itself is already too slow - making it even slower with Recruiter while taking away the suprise effect seems even worse. I would never cut a SFM for that.
I also wonder if E-Tutor + Blood Moon could be a viable SB strategy. If you run 2 Tutors, you could easily slip in a BM for free wins.
I don't know, are you gonna bring in Enlightened tutor againt BUG decks? And Blood Moon can get countered or they can float BG in response so I don't think I like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Isn't "Red death" already a BG deck with Confidant and Young Pyromancer or something like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
How do you play the deck with the red splash in the end?
Use ports and wastes + thalia until there is 3 counters on vial to vial in a magus of the moon when they are tapped out? (I guess rishadan port helps a lot in tapping out your opponent's lands). and you wait for your opponent to waste its lightning bolts on other targets before playing / vialing in Magus?
How do you feel vs opponents that do not care at all about magus of the moon?
Obviously, vs such opponents it's strictly worse that the cards you ditched for it (Mirran crusader / Brimaz).
I like how you play windsweapt heath and marsh flats. Just trying to hide the fact that you have a red splash :) Did you manage to bluff someone with that?
SUdden demise is for elves only? (seems like a good idea anyway better that mindsencor).
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahra
There's a non-powered vintage deck that is basically a red Death & Taxes... they call it Red & Taxes and I feel like that name is suitable.
Well people just assume that I have a green splash when I show windswept heath so that is definitely working as intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
It's tricky to play with Magus of the Moon since you have to shape the game in such a fashion that he's the most effective when he comes down. For example I played against miracles last night and I chose a spot where he though I had flickerwisp and was just vialing it in to take one of his lands (in my own end step) and so he didn't fetch in response, and then I locked down 3 out of his 4 lands and he never came back.
Against lightning bolt decks it's best to have mother of runes protection but of course you can't have that every time, but it still buys you a ton of time or eats a removal spell, either way it's not doing nothing which is the most important thing for our creatures.
Magus of the Moon does something against almost every deck, even against MUD it shuts down Sol Lands. But against the decks where it does nothing you of course just board it out. But that's true for some of the other creatures we play as well, like Phyrexian Revoker that we board out against most fair decks. So I feel like the downside of having Magus of the Moon in the deck is very small.
I went 7-1 yesterday in Legacy daily events with the last list I posted, losing only to burn in very close games. I didn't draw any of the sideboard cards OR stoneforge mystics but I still almost won in 3 games.
Minor nitpick, but the inventor of the deck called it "Simians Mom," which he made a thread about here. Both are pretty silly names though.Quote:
Originally Posted by hartigan
Some of you mentioned a few pages back that omni was an issue, would it be worth incuding a couple of red blasts in the SB? Or is jamming pro-active hate-bears just the better way to go about the match-up?
The mindcensor is really more the 5th flier, but I do agree that it is slow and should probably just be a 4th sfm. And, while cavern is another red source, I could see cutting a fetch/basic for another Plateau.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Another Moon in the board could be nice, but I don't know how deep we want to go there. With Magus and Recruiter already I think the extra Moon may be excessive.
Yet another blue deck. Laaaaame.Quote:
Originally Posted by hartigan
I guess we could call it Imperial Taxes? Red and Taxes works, but it just sounds bland. I'm sure basically no one cares about stuff like this, but it bugs me when deck names don't even try to be creative.
So I am now 10-2 in daily events with 2 Imperial Recruiter and 3 Magus of the Moon. 3 Sudden Demise in the side.
I've lost to RUG Delver (I played horrible) and burn (the usual: His last card has to be fireblast, it is :rolleyes: ).
I've beaten: Deadguy Ale, UWR Delver, UWR Stoneblade, RUG Delver, Grixis Delver, Dark Maverick, Elves and 2x Miracles.
Pretty happy with the deck so far I must say and I will keep playing and testing.
EDIT: I've just been calling it Red Taxes so far, for lack of a better name.
I'm thinking that running 2 Recruiter and then a few 1-ofs might be best... plus this would let us run guys like Leonin Relic Warder on the SB as a one-of
23 Lands, standard main deck except
Creatures
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Flickerwisp
3x Magus of the Moon
2x Imperial Recruiter
1x Serra Avenger
1x Mangara of Condor
Sideboard:
3x Sudden Demise
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Rest in Peace
2x Council's Judgement
1x Cataclysm
1x Containment Priest
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
So what silver bullets do you use main? and side also?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahra
3 Flickerwisp is not really even remotely acceptable in a deck with Imperial Recruiter. Imperial Recruiter makes it even easier to get insane value from Flickerwisp so we especially need the full 4 here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggedjoe
I run Mirran Crusader main and then just the usual. I have Kor Firewalker in the side and would have containment priest if they weren't 35 tickets online and they were better for the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
Guys, I'm really intrigued by the red splash for Magus of the Moon and/or Imperial Recruiter... but, in testing, don't you find that turning off your own Rishadan Ports, Wastelands, and Karakas to be problematic at all?
Does Magus give enough free wins to counterbalance the dis-synergy with all of the valuable utility lands?
For some reason I keep thinking of this card:Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/al/199.jpg
It has very little to do with deck but it has to do with Mountains and Plains and is one of the only cards printed that does so.
After all this deck is kind of a "conversion" of D&T.
It's a long-shot but you could call the deck "Conversion".
I'm not sure why I'm thinking so much about this, either way it's cool this is a new archetype that is being tested!
Definitely. Remember, you're not gonna draw Magus of the Moon every game, and even if you did, you can port + wasteland until you drop Magus of the Moon and then hopefully you don't need port and waste anymore. I have played about 20 matches with the deck now and it has not been a problem once.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
I am really interested in this evolution of the deck (i would be even more interested if recruiters were a reasonably priced card). it seems that recruiter could offer card advantage, especially in conjunction with flickerwisp, and the possibility to run a toolbox of hatebears. Death and taxes always lacked in these departments so the benefits could be huge.
It is also fun that imperial painter players usually splash white nowadays and recently there are people who started to shift the deck more towards white and a hatebear strategy.
Yes! I have been singing the need for a tutor for a long time.
You guys have my hope in this design rekindled. Here is a new, less audacious design. I am making a new thread for the red version because it is a different deck. Let's take the discussion to http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...342#post875342.
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Aven Mindcensor
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
5 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Plateau