Yeah, I'm going to seriously give Brazen a hard look at. Being able to bounce a 20/20 is pretty relevant.
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Yeah, I'm going to seriously give Brazen a hard look at. Being able to bounce a 20/20 is pretty relevant.
With wipe is for sejiri, 1 brazen 1 wipe away is still the correct way in my opinionQuote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I've playtested a ton against Turbo Depths (and I've played the deck myself a ton, it's one of my favorite decks) and the main way for them getting Sejiri Steppe to protect Marit lage is Crop Rotation. With so few spells that count in the matchup, this is definitely the one you counter. If they play Steppe main phase to get Marit Lage past a Delver blocker you play Petty Theft in response. Also, you can Stifle the Steppe trigger or just stifle Hexmage/Stage to buy a turn or more. Wipe Away isn't a worthwhile card anymore, it's just too narrow. EDIT: I meant to say it's too narrow, where Borrower has applications across several matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by davide
It costs 3 mana, and two of that has a color requirement (we play Wasteland and Factory). When you play Stifle and Brazen, you can let your opponent go all-in with Crop Rot (losing a real land, and losing access to re-upping the combo) for the same :1::u: + :u: and then turn that bounce spell into a blocker or clock, all while being immune to Duress. With Brazen, you're also able to contest a 20/20 on just 2 lands, needing only one blue mana (important in a Daze deck).Quote:
Originally Posted by davide
In a worst case scenario that you're thinking of, Wipe Away might be the only card that can help...but you actively want your opponent to be sinking more resources into failing to protect a Lage on a routine basis. The only 3 mana card I'd really want to use against Lage is Teferi, because it crushes them (and is proactive).
It's fine to have personal preferences, but Brazen is showing up in decks [across the format] that are winning on a regular basis. They are playing it due to the maindeck playability of an anti-Depths card. They are finding success against Depths, most without also having Stifle. To call Wipe Away more correct than Borrower, the rest of the format should be backing that up.
Here's Wipe Away since Jan.1 2019:
70 SB appearances.
8x Storm
1x Tezz
1x Stax
1x UB Reanimator
59x SnT decks
I will grant you that UB Reanimator is very close to the same thing as Dreadnought, and that Tezz-MUD-Dreadnought are in their own prison vs prison-breaker subformat. Let's note how incredibly unlikely any of these 70 decks are to use Borrower with Wipe Away, as they don't *really* use creature combat. Brazen wasn't a card in January, but it doesn't change that Wipe Away isn't really a Dreadnought card, and we aren't the only deck in legacy that could use Brazen + Wipe Away (if it were a correct thing to be doing).
Edit: 59 SnT, 1x Stax
Id much rather have Echoing Truth for TES. Brazen is great cuz its a kill factor too
I think wipe is a very narrow option. I even like Snap more
Another grind session against a friend on UW Miracles. Ran both my UR list and my UW list, regular Bo3 each time. Some observations:
- Brazen Borrower main feels like a must if not on UW; life feels much harder vs a CB or JtMS that sticks, and I imagine there's other permanents that we hate too (EBridge, cheated in fatties)
- 6x "free" counters that are also sources of card disadvantage is a lot; I liked FoN as a 1x a lot more, since exiling something like a CJ so it couldn't be snapped back was nice.
- Locking away their graveyard is a must; between AK, Predict, SCM, and Mystic Sanct., that part of the field was not an insignificant resource to them (thanks Fox)
- I'm unsure what to do with FoWs G2 and 3 in this matchup. More generally, how do you guys approach boarding out "free" counterspells? It was nice to be able to jam Scroll/Teferi/Karn behind Force, but the 1-for-2s really felt like they added up vs all their cantrips, esp. when the games went long.
I recall colo running 4x CB in his mono-U list, and next i practice UR, I'll experiment with it. I'd probably go something like:
- 4 Standstill
- 4 Daze
+ 4 Ponder
+ 4 Counterbalance
If I go that route, makes me feel like I'd want JtMS > Karn, but we'll see. Also will be looking to try Isochron Scepter as part of the karnboard, likely in UW more than UR.
I never board FOW out vs decks playing Oko. Generally on red splash 3-4 REBs come in and 1-2 Brazens. On white splash maybe Mystical Disputes take that slot. Cards pure gas in that MU
10 people showed up today for 4 rounds. Decks in the room were Elves!, Eldrazi Stompy (aggro), UR OmniTell, UG SnowOko OmniTell, Ug Stasis, TurboDepths, Grixis Delver, Storm (pretty sure, but definitely don't remember if ANT or TES), DETH, and manifest destiny.
Round 1 vs UR OmniTell (2-0): game 1 he gets locked out by Teferi and a hand with enough countermagic. Game 2 he gets Stifled out of game.
Round 2 vs Eldrazi (2-1): I win the die roll, but ~1 white card short of stabilizing. Game 2 an early Dreadnought gets there. Game 3 Torpor Orb and 2x Dreadnoughts get there. Was able to dodge the Blast Zones in the last games.
Round 3 vs UG SnowOko OmniTell (2-0): game 1 has a slower opening into Scroll, play Dreadnought face-down. In response to attack and flip, opponent casts Cunning Wish and I respond with Brainstorm, they go on top of stack with Veil, and they will eventually get Force of Vigor (exile Veil #2). While Dreadnought and Scroll go down, I still get to make a 2/2, and that clock is enough to win. Game 2 they have an Ice-Fang, I follow up with JVP, and they untap and Oko [+1] my guy. This is the beginning of the end for them, as my Elk vindicates their blocker and is followed up by Scroll of Fate. Oko ends up falling 2 turns later (Teferi bounce Food-Elk) to 2x 2/2s and Factory. They use their last turn to Cunning Wish for Through the Breach at 19 life, and I put Dreadnought in face-down. Topdeck Factory, swing for 19.
Round 4 vs TurboDepths (2-0): game 1 a few Teferi's and an Azcanta vindicate too many Decays from their hand and they die to a Dreadnought, unable to ever go for it vs Wastelands and Stifles in hand. Game 2 they're on a mull to 5 and have to burn too many resources finding new lands (ESG exile, cast Once Upon a Time) vs double Wasteland; over a few turns they die to Mastery of the Unseen putting 4 power on board before they could burn a Petal to Decay Mastery.
On the UG stuff, round 3 pretty well demonstrates why playing Oko without a 3rd color's removal really doesn't work, as you can't really deal with the 3/3 you give an opponent. It's rough though b/c the moment you add a 3rd color, you immediately stop everything you were thinking of doing, and change directly into 4c SnowOko. Staying on 2c is where Uro is the card that kinda has to be looked at, but he only works well with Dreadnought ideas. I still think UG is too weak (being forced to rely on Ice-Fangs), but it's probably not that far off playable.
Nice work! There are alot of S&T lately. How many scrolls were u on?
1x main, 1x SB....but I have 2x E Tutor and 2x Karn, so 6. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rood
@Rood. Killing it lately! you got a big shout out by the LaL guys this week, too. Funny how folks only start recognizing once MTGO results come in. I'm excited to get back on Dreadstill myself after tinkering around with some janky Phoenix brews. (unfortunately too much RiP & Leyline for that atm)
So can I pick your brain about a couple of things? In particular: Where and when do you board out some number of Standstills, if ever? I'd be guessing against Delver & Vial decks, at least on the draw? And how do you approach & feel about our Delver MUs in general; BUG looks to be the toughest, followed by Grixis, then UR, but even that does not look super favorable, or is it? (I always thought that vs. tempo my old UB Ponder/Thoughtseize build had a slight advantage over classic Dreadstill). Any advice on common play patterns here?
@Fox. Happy to hear your take, too, as an old UR vet. And keep up the good work!
@Tobitzki
Looking at Rood's list on pg.1 for a few matchups, here's what I'd be doing:
-DnT: cut 6 cards for 2x EE, 2x Dismember, 2x Abrade. Cuts to include 3x Standstill, 3x Snare/Daze (could also get behind a -4/-2 split).
-Lands: cut 5 cards for 2x EE, 3x Surgical. Cuts to include 3x Standstill, 2x Daze.
-Depths: cut 4 cards for 2x Abrade, 2x EE. Cuts to include 2x Bolt, 2x Standstill.
-Delver: cut 7 cards for 2x Dismember, 2x EE, 3x REB (could add Abrade too, but seems unnecessary). Cuts to include 2x Dreadnought, 2x Scroll, 1x Standstill, 1x FoW, 1x Snare (depending on their build). Good amount of flexibility on this one, but I'd generally be keep Standstill closer to 3x postboard. Kill their dudes, force them to give you 3 cards is too much for them.
-Post: cut 6 cards for 2x EE, 2x Abrade (Golos/Map/Chalice), 2x Surgical. Cuts to include 4x Bolt, 2x Standstill. There's a lot of bad cards here, like I kinda want to cut all the Snares too, and Daze isn't amazing either, so maybe 1x Snare out for Surgical #3. Honestly, maybe even Agent of Treachery comes in. Need to be especially careful with Factory deployment sequence vs any deck with Stage.
Not a huge amount of playstyle similarities between UB and UR; the UB builds rely on Dreadnought surviving, while UR will hold Dreadnought in hand longer and be more likely to use it to discard removal away from Delver or Factory. There's a lot more "going for it" with UB, but the printing of Scroll really takes a lot of the risk out. One of the bigger differences is that UB has to be more proactive, but also can't refill its hand. While Ponder is a good card, it's not like there is any mystery behind what you're digging for when Scroll is out and you can't grow hand by >1 card per turn (exception here for Daze returning land). Both builds require perfect recognition of Daze/Wasteland vs Fetch scenarios.
thanks @Fox, this is super helpful. In all of these MUs I'd feel inclined to take out 1 or 2 extra copies of Standstill otd--or am I too focused on starting hands and the first few turns?
You're generally not wrong about UR vs. UB. But I think you underestimate what an absolute house Thoughtseize was pretty much since the DRS/Probe bans and until the printing of Veil. Especially during the W6 meta, Swords, Push and Decay were at a very manageable level. RUG had very few outs to a resolved 12/12 (and even the 4C-greed builds had a hard time finding one of their 2 Decays while on a 2T clock). Not that much risk involved if you Peek & discard their removal before hardcasting the 12/12. But yea, I've always considered that deck's plan to be turbo-Tempo with Dreadnoughts acting as some kind of Goyf on steriods. Now it's probably unplayable at least until Veil is gone.
Seize is fine, it's just that you can't really play it with Confidant. The only real CA engine it pairs with is Griselbrand, pulling double duty as Entomb targeting opponent -> play their deck.
On opening hands in UR, you're doing something fundamentally more powerful than most decks so you shouldn't be feeling the need to have amazing opening hands nor try to mulligan to a 'great' six. You also have to let the Factories do their thing with Standstill's support, since they're not really a movable part of your mana base. Undercutting them adds in a good deal more variance to each draw step. Just keep all your cards comboing towards counting to 20 while managing interaction decisions; they all work together towards this goal in the setting of Standstill.
Edit: Confidant also has some lifeloss issues being played alongside Scroll as well.
Never did play Bobs (first availability then due to W6) & kept the black splash to a minimum. I think we've been through this on this thread, but I tried several things in those 2-drop/Bob-slots: Pre-Scroll it was TNN, I tried Lazav, then liked JVP for a long time, then took up 1 or 2 Brazen Boys, even considered the Gargoyle or just adding a Preordain. It's a tricky spot in the deck, but tbh I don't think it matters too much what you go for, a couple of Bobs would be fine now, too. The perfect information Thoughtseize gives you makes it that you don't really care about balancing out the inherent Dreadnought card disadvantage: usually we just don't care about 80% of their cards and ideally they'll be dead before they draw into one of their answers. In fact, there's a whole list of decks that simply can't handle a Dreadnought at all pre-board (e.g. Eldrazi, UR Delver, combo). But so if this is indeed riskier than UR's flexible control/tempo plan, in the meantime the Delver/Daze/Wasteland plan here (plan A2 rather than plan B) runs a lot more efficiently thanks to Ponder, the full 4 WLs, and 28+ Delver flips. What I'm trying to say is that it never seemed to me on par in degree of difficulty compared with UR's shapeshifting roleplay. It's tempo. Get the info. Go for it. Make them live & die by their topdecks. If they kill the 12/12, drop TNN or Scroll. It's much more linear than Dreadstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
This is great advice, much appreciated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Thanks. I have 5 5-0 Trophies the past cpl weeks, 4th place on MTGO w dreadstill. Generally SS i never board out more then 1 unless against Depths Lands or Dredge. I often board out Bolts, Stifles, 1 scroll, sometimes 1 Dreadnought. Ive been fluctuating between 4 Snares and 4 Pierce I will say against Loam and stoneblade snare has been amazing. I think the real boost this deck gains over other delver decks is the ability to thrash snow control. Standstill and Scroll are such beatings for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobitzki
UB is alot better vs delver and gY decks. UR is alot better vs the majority of the field tho.
Also BUG delver, grixis, UGR, UR are delver MUs difficulty w bug being the hardest. Dismember is a key card here and if you expect alot of delver Snare > Pierce. Snare helps ALOT vs taxes which is a relatively hard MU
I think I like 2 Pierces 1 Snare 1 FoN for now.
And here's another question, regarding the mana base: How often does it become an issue that we're on 2 Volcs only? Beyond the 4 Bolts, there are critical red SB cards that we want against WL decks (Abrades for D&T and Delver, 1-2 Red Blasts for Delver, too). I remember reading back here how you (I think @Rood) came to the 4/3 split between Factories and Wastelands and that was all v convincing. But what about a 3/3 Island-Volc split or else a Fiery Islet as 3rd red source?
Rood's list is overwhelmingly blue, and you have Daze/Stifle to protect those Volcs; but yes, the change to defense-predominant Stifle gameplay is a turns-long prioritization change. You have to be smart with Fetch decisions against Delver and DnT, but you should generally be okay. A 3/3 split is fine [if you own 3x Volc], but I wouldn't run Islet. Even if all your red mana is denied, you still have Scroll to repurpose them as 2/2s. Leading with nonbasics is a great way to lose in any Dreadnought deck, and you definitely pick up win % when your first land is basic Island (#4) instead of Volc (#3) auto-loss. If we're really splitting hairs on 3/3 vs 4/2 split, I think 3/3 goes with Pierce (anti-combo skew) while 4/2 goes with Snare (anti-Goyf). Remember that 3+ color decks are usually trying to scum wins off of Oko, so using Wasteland like that against a Daze deck is a lot harder when we lead basic Island -> Snare your Goyf -> I dare you to Waste my second land (Volc). A BUG Delver deck would much prefer a turn 1 play, Waste our first land Volc (no lands on board) and then try for Goyf into Oko, without losing a land drop in-between. The lost land drop between Oko and Goyf ends up playing a lot harder into Snare and Daze topdecking windows.
If you move towards cards like Lavamancer or Chandra ToD, you start working in basic Mountain. There's also something to be said for Noxious Revival as a 1x maindeck choice which adds quite a bit of finesse play, and can easily cover 2x Volcs; that said, Noxious is best played in the 4th Factory slot.
Just a random aside on SB ideas:
If you're looking for something like Painful Truths, there is something to be said for Tragic Lesson and Mystic Sanctuary. Probably better in Factory builds, but UB could use this engine to power up a Scroll down the stretch.
I heard the name-drop during the podcast as well. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobitzki
@Fox Makes sense; I already figured that we need to be super judicious with our fetching decisions and sometimes just sandbag a Volc, too. The mana base is just calibrated on razor-thin margins (see: history of this thread). 13, rather than the usual minimum 14, blue sources with only 4 cantrips is ballsy. Which is also why I don't like basic mountain here. But so, somewhat against my own better judgment, I was gonna run Academy Ruins over the 4th Scroll as land #21 and then Fiery Islet (only own 2 Volcs.). I know it's not correct, but I just wanna jam that beautiful John Avon land for a little while. Beyond that my logic was that offering more WL targets facilitates the odds of keeping a red source around, not sure if that computes.
Otherwise, my UR build is basically Rood's MD, SB as such:
1 T Orb
2 Brazen Bouncer
1 Dismember
1 Magmatic Sinkhole
1 Pithing Needle
3 Red Blast
2 Abrade
1 E.E.
1 Crypt
1 Cage
1 Surgical
Now, the low red mana-source count made me dither between 2 and 3 blasts (when we really do want 3) and second-guess any further red inclusions, like Sinkhole. (on 2 Volcs I'd run a 2nd Snare or Hydroblast over REB#3 and 2nd Dismember over Sinkhole.) Also considering a 4th piece of GY hate over the Needle (I only have 1 Surgical and we probably need another instant-interaction: might end up being a Faerie Mac. In a related note, criminally underplayed card atm: Extirpate. Total blow out vs. all those Breach decks).
I love the Tragic Lesson/Sanctuary idea. I was thinking about TL's viability for Legacy just the other day when I updated my Pauper Delver decks, but I hadn't thought of save-a-Factory mode. You can just run a single USea for the Painful Truth/Sanctuary package in the side, but this does put an additional if slight strain on our mana. And Lesson actually seems... strangely playable here? What would you cut in the SB, tho? The reason it might not make the cut in the end is simply that we need those slots elsewhere. We're not struggling vs. Snow Cntrl as much as, say, Delver.
You don't run Sea and Painful Truths; what I'm saying is that if you were ever considering something in the board like a Painful Truths-style grinding card you just use Tragic Lesson (staying on 2c) and keep picking up Mystic Sanctuary instead. Loop this nonsense over and over on opponent's EoT. Actual Painful Truths encourages pretty sloppy play combining sorcery speed with poor mana decisions and life loss - the moment DRS got banned this card became pretty suspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobitzki
I wouldn't play Hydroblast right now since there's nothing worth hitting (particularly when we consider that Snare hits 2-drops). Game actions and permanents make for good yard hate. Consider Macabre and Damping Sphere (not so much yard hate here, but good at stopping plenty of play patterns used by combo). If you are on UB, Planar Void is a castable Leyline-analogue.
I don't think Delver is that bad of a matchup since most versions aren't really equipped to fight on quite the same mana denial axis. BUG Delver is the most annoying, but that's all b/c of Goyf. If you're looking for SB space, Brazen is perfectly reasonable as 1x main/1x SB (also note the play pattern of bounce Goyf later in game, especially if you just drew Snare). Don't go below 3x REB effects (Oko).
I’ve been on 4 Tarns 3 Delta side basic mountain at least 2 weeks now. Its just proper to win the delver and loam MUs
You also want some # of dispels in your Sb. Veil is a volatile magic card
Haven't yet had the chance to play it out, but the thought of CB in a UR build is becoming less appealing to me on paper. Using this as reference:
8x Scalding Tarn/Flooded Strand
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
2x Volcanic Island/Steam Vents (only own 1 proper UR dual)
4x Island
4x Dreadnought
4x Delver
2x Borrower
4x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Brainstorm
2x Daze
4x Force of Will
3x Counterbalance
3x Scroll of Fate
2x Jace tMS
4x open (Ponder vs Standstill)
CB appeals to me since as colo said, it's a great way to discard permission from opponents, and is a low-cost investment into an engine that can randomly force opponents to discard cards with minimal further investment (BS, early, potentially JtMS later on). The issue I'm predicting (without testing yet) is that CB demands more library manipulation than typical Standstill builds have; I definitely want Ponder > Standstill if I'm running CB. However, that choice not only trashes the curve (only five 2cmc spells as built), it also pushes me away from manlands as additional reliable threats -> increases reliance on Noughts in general. Not a great look. We'll see how it goes tomorrow/Wednesday. On the flipside, Teferi's Response out of the SB seems hilarious, however narrow that'd be.:tongue:
SB Idea
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Abrade
3x Surgical Extraction
2x True-Name Nemesis
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Spell Pierce
1x Ashiok
1x Narset
Will give an update after tomorrow's weekly.
What's the point of 2 dazes...you may as well go 4 or 0Quote:
Originally Posted by crispymelee
I don't disagree. It's more of a question of having some semblance of a curve to support CB + having a "free" counter available. Was considering cutting Scroll to allow +2 Dazes with an extra slot left over, but that loops back into the issue mentioned before of an increased reliance on Dreadnoughts and the loss of Scroll def doesn't help the situation. Makes me think CB in a two-color shell is...poor, to put it kindly.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Not necessarily true, I used to run 3. It's one of the most sided-out cards in Standstill vs anything grindy.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
So Mystic Sanctuary got me thinking: Can we crack a Fetch in response to opponent triggering Standstill, before we draw three? (is that the whole point? pretty sweet if it works)
Yes. That's also what makes it sweet with Counterbalance - but only in theory. I've had that fucking miser land end up in my starting seven or as an early topdeck regularly, no matter what I did :>Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobitzki
Rough night back on UR Dreadstill. 0:3, plus a bye, but added a couple of bonus games vs. Eureka Tell (lost both of those, too.).
The room: 2x Loam, D&T, Grixis Delver, Grixis Breach, ANT, Bant Miracles, Hogaak, Painter, Eureka Tell, Dreadstill.
Not really worth doing a full write-up, but the matchups were:
vs. Grixis Breach (1:2; v. close games, opp. went off twice while dead on board to a 12/12 & Just barely got there; between Dreadnought clock, interaction & Stifle, this feels like a fine MU)
vs. 4C Loam (0:2; took a beating. He had strong draws getting Punishing Fire & Grove online early and our threats & disruption just never lined up. G2 I think he cracked a Standstill & went on to still kill me with Loam, Knight, Lily/Veil. Did not play this optimally by a long shot but the MU seems daunting. I countered every Chalice, but Knight, Abrupt Decay, P Fire all F us up so hard..)
vs. RW Painter (1:2; losses were close, win a blowout; punted away G3 when I mistimed Petty Theft on Grindstone, which otherwise would have bought me the turn to find red mana for Abrade. This one's on me; MU seems ok.)
vs. Eureka Tell (2 pre-board losses; strange & clunky games; neither deck finds any business for a long time, and when we do, his obviously overpowers ours. Overall, he broke 2 Standstills eot-ing Ice-Fang; after a big counterfight over S&T, he takes a Dreadnought hit only to Wish for E Truth, gives me 1 Turn to deal 3 damage that'd kill him dead--I have 3 ways that each need an extra turn: Mystic Sanctuary for Bolt, play 1 of 2 Factories, recast Dreadnought--and he goes off again next turn.)
My list:
4 Delver
4 PhD
3 Scroll of Fate
4 Standstill
4 BS
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Force of Negation
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Mystic Sanctuary
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
7 Strand & Delta
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
SB
1 Torpor Orb
2 Tragic Lesson
2 Brazen Bouncer
3 Red Blast
1 Dismember
2 Abrade
1 Explosives
1 Surgical
1 Cage
1 Crypt
Small sample size, obviously, but a few take-aways:
Cracked Standstill ≠ victory. Each of my opp. played correctly vs. Standstill and I definitely drew into air a couple of times. Discarding to handsize is a little science unto itself.
There's a real chance of drawing the wrong side of the deck here: Standstills without pressure; Dreadnoughts after just Stifling stuff. I didn't see nearly enough Delvers all night (they only showed up big to the Punishing Fire party). I never drew one of those Delver-into-Standstill hands otp.
@Rood I see why you'd go for super narrow Show&Tell hate bombs (Agent of Treachery); they can play right through a Standstill, and Veil & Snake are formidable cards against us.
Even though (naturally) I ended up with Mystic Sanctuary in my starting hand what felt like half the time, I actually liked the inclusion a lot, not least as blue source #14 & for guaranteeing Standstill cracks to hit what we need. Of all the Daze decks this might be the one that best capitalizes the utility of MS. Unfortunately, I never got to cast Tragic Lesson.
The counter package of 2 Pierce, 1 Snare, 1 FoN seemed good against a diverse field. (of course still couldn't find that FoN when my life literally depended on it vs. Loam...) Might considering sticking a 2nd Snare in the side.
Instead of basic mountain out of the side (as long as I stick with Sanctuary), I'm thinking of adding an 8th fetch over the 4th Island.
Overall, while I know this to be a well-constructed if challenging deck that can do beautiful things, nights like these are frustrating enough to make we wanna go back & just cruise around in my Honda Civic for a bit. Standstill, Factories, and Dreadnought/Scroll vs. Ponder, Arcanist, and Pyromancer/TNN/Brazen B just seems so lopsided in both sheer power level & synergies.
Meanwhile, to cheer everyone up, here's the always entertaining Rich Shay running @Rood's list through a league. Highly recommended:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/5423172...ives&sort=time
(League starts roughly around 00:30:00)
What was your boarding in these matches?
From memory, something like:
vs. Grixis Breach:
IN: 3 Blasts, 3 GY Hate
OUT: 2 Scroll, 3 Bolts (I half expected him to pivot to Delver plan post-board, so left one in), 1 Dreadnought
vs. Loam: (this was super tough)
IN: Dismember; 2 Abrade, 2 Brazen B, E.E.; 1 Tragic Lesson (didn't wanna go all in on the grind plan on the play); Crypt; Surgical
OUT: 2 Pierce; Snare; 4 Daze; 2 Dreadnoughts
Basically I feel pulled into 2 directions here: grind with Sanctuary/Tragic Lesson & play to the board with removal OR go all in on Tempo & hope to Delver/Daze/WL them out of the game. Thing is that other than a super tight starting hand, Daze seems to be the weakest spell here.
vs. Painter:
IN: T Orb; 2 Abrade, E.E., 1 Brazen B, Surgical
OUT: 2 Scrolls, 1 PhD, 1 Bolt, 1 Standstill (?), 1 Stifle (?) --not sure exactly, basically shaved a few things.
Left in most of the Bolts for Painter, Goblins and because he showed me Smuggler's Copter. Perhaps leaving them all in would've been justified.
Any advice & feedback appreciated.
EDIT: final point: I missed Null Rod, then saw one in @Rood's list & realized that it's fine cuz with the exception of Stoneblade & D&T we board out Scrolls in the MUs where Rod shines.
Most successful night thus far running the big boys; went 2-1-1 to earn a bit of store credit, drawing the last game (vs. Burn) due to the late hour. We played out a G1, and I'm fairly certain I could have taken it for a 3-1 based on what I saw (lots of higher CMC burn spells).
Round 1: Turbo Depths, L 1-2 (0-1 overall) -
G1: An almost ideal opener of T1 Island -> Delver, T2 Fetchland with BS in hand means that I'm able to to deliver early pressure on his life total. A second Delver in hand keeps up the pressure after the first eats a Decay, and I make sure to keep my Borrower in hand when I see the Thespian's comes down. Bob can't stop the beatdown, and he's close to death when he goes attempts to combo out with Dark Depths on my end step, and I let it resolve. I show him the Petty Theft on his upkeep and we go to G2.
In: 3x Surgical Extract, 1x Pithing Needle, 2x EE, Narset
Out: 3x CB, 2x Bolt, 1x Force of Will
G2: He opens up with a Thoughtseize and I lose my Stifle. This time, my early Delver refuses to flip, and though I manage to stick a Dreadnought, it immediately eats a Decay. I use my Extraction on the Decay and am able to buy a turn by Stifling his first attempt to Stage -> Depths, I can't find either EE or Borrower to take care of the 20/20.
G3: A very tight, technical game. I can't find early pressure, but I setup his Stage in the yard by attempting to Waste his Thespian's. This gets a Crop Rot in response, which I let resolve, fetching another Stage. This is when I realize I should have countered it since I would have gotten the Stage in the yard anyways. Now, I'm hoping to draw into another Extraction, Waste, or Stifle. Unfortunately, the Ponder and Brainstorm in hand don't dig me anything interactive, and I'm left helpless as he is able to get Marit Lage and he stomps me.
Round 2: 4c Loam, W 2-1, (1-1 overall)
G1: Once again, Delvers are the heroes of the day. I get greedy and overextend, going for a T2 Delver after the first one fails to flip, but am rewarded when on T3, they both flip on a blind Bolt reveal. All I'm seeing is a pile of dual lands stacking up on his side and have no clue what he's on until a land gets cycled. A Decay takes a Delver, but he has no answer for the second as I stick a Scroll. I Bolt his Bob to stop his alternative engine, and ironically, he scoops before I have the chance to flip my Manifested Deadnought, so he's still unaware of what's lurking behind the Delvers.
In: 2x Spell Pierce, 3x Surgical Extraction, 1x Ashiok, 1x Narset, 2x TNN
Out: 3x Counterbalance, 3x Daze, 1x JtMS, 2x Brazen Borrower
G2: We both keep unwieldy hands, but Ponder manages to smooth out my draws. We drop lands back and forth, And I drop the first real threat of TNN. Nemesis gets to beat in for a couple turns, but Plague Engineer on Rogue ends him. I do manage to stick an Ashiok, and she manages to get rid of some cycle lands, but she meets a swift end to Bob and Engineer. Delver and Dread hit the board the turn after, but the Dread eats a Decay and Delver refuses to flip. Eventually, he goes wild with a Knight of the Reliquary, Maze of Ith, and Loam, and I get run over by a giant Knight.
G3: I keep another aggressive (read: risky) 1-lander that has an Island, Ponder, 2x Brainstorm, and Delver. He keeps a risky hand as well, but luck favors me, and ponder gets me some early gas and resources (2nd delver + fetch). By the time he finds a second land for Chalice on 1, I have two flipped Delvers bearing down on him and he doesn't find any removal in time and concedes after I drop TNN. He showed me has hand after, and it was a potentially lethal mix of Oko, Liliana, another Chalice, and Loam.
Round 3: Omnitell, W 2-0 (2-1 overall)
G1: Continuing the theme of riding my luck tonight, I get another Ponder opener which lets me chip away at him by finding a Delver and setting up a flip. An early Stifle on a fetch sets him back a turn, and when he finally is able to cast LimDuls Vault, hes unlucky and pays 4 life for his piles. A CB discards force from him, and by the time he tries to drop Show and Tell, multiple Ponders and BS have given me a Daze and 2x FoW, with some extra Delvers to pitch. I win the FoW war over the SnT, and a few turns later, I have him within lethal range of Bolt; he concedes G1 after I show him the second Bolt with Steam Vents up.
In: 3x REB, 3x Surgical Extraction, 2x Spell Pierce, 1x Narset
Out: 3x CB, 3x Bolt, 2x Daze, 1x JtMS
G2: Having seen the SnT, I'm disappointed with an opening hand of 2x Delver, 2x Land, JtMS, Scroll, and Ponder. I roll with it though, under the premise that a T1 Ponder can essentially dig me permission; after I shuffle away 3 non-interactive cards, it doesn't. He unfortunately seems unluckier with his draws, and once again, by the time he finds relevant pieces to put down, Delvers are flying in on him and put him within lethal range of a Dreadnought; he saw the Scroll G1, and this time didn't let it resolve, effectively winning me the counterwar when I hardcasted Nought.
Overall impressions:
+ 4x Daze was the right call. I cut a Scroll#3 and Ponder#4 to fit them in.
+ Ponder in general was incredible. The ability to shuffle away irrelevant cards and cantrip felt very critical to keeping up pressure or digging for answers.
+ Brazen Borrower main feels like a must; being able to bounce any non-land perm into a line of them playing it out against permission felt amazing, and it sealed the game I took against Lands.
+ Mystic Sanct: ironically, the one time it mattered was the one time I had it in an opening hand. It gave me a bit of extra reach vs the Loam player
= Undecided on CB; it never really got to affect any of my games, but it DID have the desired effect of discarding permission when I tried to cast it. That being said, I boarded them all out in every match, and frankly don't know when I should/Shouldn't keep them in. I felt good about taking them out in the matches i played, and would have kept them in for the Burn player if I played out R4.
SB for the night:
3x REB
2x Spell Pierce
3x S. Extraction
1x Ashiok
1x Narset
2x Engineered Explosives
2x TNN
1x PNeedle
Keep rocking them Noughts!
Watched the Rich Shay replay. The mechanics and long-term planning is done with proficiency, but the list is consistently undercut by improper card/role evaluation. If it were a normal legacy deck (like UR Delver) he would have been spot on, but he consistently jammed cards in such a way that future topdecks were getting stranded. You see more of this lost win % surrounding premature aggro-Dreadnoughts than with Standstill. If it was UR Standstill I'd rate his play/game-sense as expert (few to no egregious mistakes), but the Dreadnought tempo reservoir was too often misused.
The sideboarding I disagreed with in pretty much every instance, but I don't play yolo-Dreadnought/normal legacy. Some thoughts as I watched the League:
-Rood's list: I've never cared much for Pierce. The reasoning being when you're on Standstill, you're letting opponents get land drops and it's really hard to overcome having Daze and Pierce in your deck outnumbering pitch outlets 2:1. I get why Rood likes it, but ya I can't stand Pierce as a card. :tongue: The lack of anti-SnT cards in board is ofc why we're seeing Pierce over Snare.
In the board I'm never running Blood Moon; Alpine Moon yes. Kinda like Pierce vs Snare, I also dislike Narset compared to Ashiok. SB Karn is a card I will always reach for before Null Rod when above 18 land.
-Round 1 vs BUG scoopzilla:
Game 1 I would have waited for 1 more land drop before making post-Standstill Factory attack. Opponent scoops to Daze on Oko. There's quite a bit to be learned from this game; imagine the opponent hits land #4 and Oko resolves through the Daze corner Rich played himself into - it becomes a convincing loss very quickly. A withheld Factory attack results in auto-win.
Sideboarding: dislike Blood Moon; Factory is a huge check on Oko. SBing otherwise looks okay, but I'd leave Stifle at 4x and cut Scroll x2 when going down 2x Nought. Adding Mountain is equivocal, but would like to see Daze trimmed [especially on the draw]; these games will skew longer and Daze is going to fall off. This can be inferred from Drown in the Loch into Oko. My Boarding here would be +4 REB, +1 Mag. Sinkhole, +1 Borrower, +1 Surgical, +1 Narset. -4 Daze, -2 Nought, -2 Bolt.
Game 2 opponent scoops to Wasteland. Very lucky since that Blood Moon is something we were never interested in casting. When Standstill is good in a matchup, you can't really afford to bring in Moon and lose access to slamming Standstill while topdecking towards Factory.
-Round 2 vs KassariPost:
Game 1 with Stifle in hand on the play you lead Volc to vindicate any enemy Wasteland in the blind (had basic Island in hand to beat a turbo-Moon also). Agree with Rich's use of Scroll and Standstill. Disagree heavily with FoW vs Primetime Titan when we have Nought to attack next turn (off Scroll), Stifle for the Primetime trigger, and even Brazen to disappear it. Correct sequence after Stifle is attack with face-down Nought *only* and murder 6/6 tiny dude when it blocks (or they take 12) -> pass turn -> bounce Titan in enter combat step (if it's still alive), or even just threaten to block with 6 power [Factory + 2/2 + active Scroll] and say "your 2 tapped lands won't get you out of this." Rich's aggro-FoW on titan stranded Wasteland by itself (to kill a Cloudpost) instead of backing up Nought vs utility land (Chasm/Maze etc...). This is a good example of how a game falls apart when you don't leverage the tempo reservoir.
Sideboarding: Moon is fine, but Alpine Moon name Cloudpost would have been better. My boarding would be +1 Moon, +2 Abrade, +2 Surgical. -3 Daze, -2 Standstill (if you had Snare, all 4 would have to come out first). Don't really like Surgical, but it can tag Cloudpost and plenty of dead cards. Narset is equivocal, but Ashiok I couldn't bring in fast enough.
Game 2 I agree with FoW pitch Narset vs Needle. Wasteland into Stifle trap on Map was correct. In terms of manifesting Bolt or Stifle, I'd have kept Stifle in hand; both paths lead to victory due to earlier sequences.
Game 3 don't ever keep that hand without Scroll. This should have been an easy match win.
-Round 3 vs R/G Lands:
Game 1 has no way to win (maindeck Needle on WL). Opponent commits Crop Rot for Stage on their turn vs Nought #1 which makes the next decision easy (to deploy Nought #2). The only other decision fork was to force through 12 dmg (Stifle the Maze) and hope to topdeck red source and another Bolt. Going for 2nd Nought is generally going to be the better line (particularly since Needle wasn't in the mix yet).
Sideboarding: Do not like Rich's cutting Dreadnought at all in this m/u. The board plan should be close to auto-losing. For me it's +2 Abrade, +1 Moon (Alpine Moon name Stage would have been far superior, keeping them off Factory mimicry and combo), +1 Borrower, +3 Surgical, +1 Mountain. Bringing out as many Pierce and Daze and Standstill as I can. I don't even like Bolt much, but it allows Factory dominance vs Stage. I would 100% bring in Ashiok here, but we only have Narset.
Game 2: I agree with the turn 2 Nought. While I understand the timing of Wasteland/Surgical Depths, after losing the Nought I'm fine leaving Wasteland "up" [they had Port] and forcing them to 'have it all' or hemorrhage cards and tempo into a Surgical trap. While this match is won with some fine time-out cheese, there are significant problems which arise from the perfect storm of cutting Noughts, going aggro on Depths, and not being able to challenge P-fire with Surgical (stranding Scroll). Rich demonstrates correct multi-turn planning theory, discussing the only out of manifest Nought, flip response to P-Fire, Stifle saved for Blast Zone. This is a good game to watch to understand the tempo reservoir; imagine if Blast Zone was not an onboard trick, Nought was in hand, and Scroll wasn't in play - there is no benefit to playing into things when you can wait for your hand to discover contingencies and/or other plans. The opponent really threw this game [and also the match] by siding out their best card: Field of the Dead. Let's be real, we know what that Choke got exchanged for.
-Round 4 vs Chase [aka Stryfo]
Game 1 both players exhibit excellent Stifle discipline for a few turns. There's a lot to be learned in the first 4 turns of this game. Going into turn 4 Rich kinda throws this game by chucking Wasteland at the Sea, particularly on Chase's end step. There are two best lines here. A) you draw up to 8 and discard Nought to hand size, then Wasteland Sea in their upkeep. B) cast Nought off Wasteland, and then choose a path as you Stifle. Either you murder countermagic with 2nd +/- 3rd Stifle on Nought trigger or use the situation to tag a Fetch and FoW or 2x Fetch. Given that this is Chase Hansen, the Dack Fayden guy, I'm never dumping a Nought into play without a way to stop a Dack cast and [-2]. Chase untaps and concedes; that Rich's sequence didn't backfire horribly is so incredibly lucky. :cool:
Sideboarding (suspect Stryfo Pile): I'm never bringing in Moon vs a deck where I suspect Oko (thus Astro), and certainly not unless I'm 100% sure they don't have a single basic Island and Brazen Borrower (so like never against a 4-5c deck, which is why I'd never have it in the 75). Rich's SBing right here is night and day vs what I'd be doing. For me it's either -4 Nought/-1 Stifle/-2 Scroll/-1 Stifle/-1 FoW for +1 Narset/+1 Brazen/+4 REB/+2 Surgical/+1 Mag. Sinkhole *or* it's -2 Nought/-1 Scroll/-4 Bolt for +4 REB/+2 Surgical/+1 Narset.
Game 2 Chase is on UB Reanimonster! Back to the board! :laugh:
SB: I'd do +3 Surgical/+1 Brazen/+1 Narset for -4 Bolt/-1 Delver. Option to add 1-2x REB would change cuts to -2/3 Standstill (Delver back in).
Game 3 Jamming Scroll is optimal - that was a tough decision point, but Standstill in hand requires it. Now imagine Standstill isn't in hand; still correct to play Scroll b/c you can topdeck Standstill or Nought. This deck is all about managing the game such that all topdecks feed into the plan, and Rich's decision here is master level. Unfortunately, right afterwards Daze isn't used on Entomb, followed by an irrecoverable mistake to not let Exhume resolve granting Niv Mizzet vs REB in hand. This is the trap of playing normal legacy after that missed Daze, it really doesn't matter if Chase has Niv-Mizzet in play and draws some cards, you untap and it dies, and then Standstill comes down while Scroll takes over the game. That Daze on Entomb has to happen though, b/c any non-Pyroblastable [even Elesh Norn] would not be tolerable at that point in the game. That game should have ended with Surgical still in hand.
-Round 5 vs UR CB/Delver/Dreadhorde/Portent
There's a noticeable uptick in short-sighted plays, but I'd attribute that to fatigue. It's a good set of games to watch to see how not to use countermagic early and what happens when you aggro-Dreadnoughts without purpose. While an Abrade is never cast, just note how his countermagic use early could easily terminate in loss to Abrade later.
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In hindsight a 4-1 was likely achievable. With mastery of the deck a 5-0 perhaps was possible, but would have been difficult if first opponent wasn't on scoopzilla and the R/G player didn't board out Fields. More than anything, the confused sideboarding is what really led to the 2-3 finish. There's other ways to SB ofc, but the boarding needs to match the role the deck will assume. That was an adept league by Rich; interacting with stream on top of playing Dreadstill for the first time in a few years is no easy feat. Was fun to watch and analyze, thanks for taking Rood's sweet list out for a spin!
@Tobitzki
Looks pretty good. I think I'd do something like:
-Breach: +1 Torpor, +3 REB, +3 yard hate. -4 Bolt, -2 Scroll, -1 Nought. If Brazen was wanted, I'd be looking at a Standstill and a Factory.
-Loam: +1 Surgical, +1 EE, +2 Abrade, +2 Brazen. -2 Bolt, -2 Pierce, -1 Nought, -1 FoW. Don't really feel the need to bring in Crypt. Dismember coming in is fine, and don't mind experimenting with Tragic Lesson.
-Painter: +1 Torpor, +2 Brazen, +2 Abrade, +1 Tragic Lesson. -1 Snare, -1 Scroll, -3 Daze, -1 Nought.
-EurekaTell: +3 REB, +2 Borrower. -4 Bolt, -1 Snare.
I feel fine leaving in all the Standstills vs those decks. Cutting down to 3x Standstill to try a new card is always going to be fine. The Loam sideboarding comes down to what you want to do with the Bolts; but the more you lay off their yard, the higher your Dreadnoughts count needs to be to take out Knight in combat. I generally like Daze against their nonstop 3 drops.
@Crispymelee game rules dictate you have to reveal morph/manifest/Mask'd creatures at end of game. You don't have to tell an inattentive opponent to look at the card you flipped, but I'd leave it face up for a few seconds as you grab SB from deckbox.
I was totally unaware of this, thanks for the heads up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Hoping colo will chime in on the use of CB and your feedback as always is much appreciated. :)
My stream for anyone interested is @roodslay on twitch. gonna actually stream a league here right now and see what happens
Someone clip/record this! I'm still at work :( Would love to hear your decision making and thought process as you play it out Rood-man!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rood