[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamieW89

Compared to my earlier UWb list I could also drop black and add red. I'd run 2 Firespouts main instead of WoGs and 1 side (or should I run 4 divided over main and sb?). I'd play 2 volcanics which all of my 7 fetches can get. I'd still be running wastelands.
I'd play Peacekeepers in the side, which is a nice out to VV and Merfolk. But people play a fair bit of goblins. Should I add 2 Blue Blasts side?

I'd be running this sb:
4x Canonist
3-4x Peacekeeper
3x Needle
2-3 Blue Blast
1x Fspout
1x Telemin Performance

Or do you think a 4c version is better? With Extirpate and Plague side, but no black main. You can get EE@4 and some nice sb cards, but you go down to only 4-5 colorless so your standstill is slightly worse. I'd run 1 Sea, 1 Scrubland and 2 Volcanics (4 Strand, 3 Delta as fetches). Red would be used for 2:1 Firespouts and EE@4 and nothing else.

A sideboard would be about this: (Or should I play peacekeepers in this as well?)
4x Canonist
3x Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Needle
1x Fspout
1x Telemin Performance

---

why r u running telemin performance in the board? It's terrible.

I tried to keep my nose out of this but there's too much self defending in here. This is a good deck in the venge-survival meta. If I were playing this deck, I would play six 4 cc TOPS. That would be 2 humility, 2 Jace, 2 Elspeth. WOGs are very very slow nowadays. They never come down when it matters from my experience. Manadrain and all the people splashing red for firespout are correct. You want your curve to be more spread out. After board, the REBs will win you the blue mirror as well. Also, no black for extirpate postboard is fine. Just deal with survival and plow/path venges and you are golden. I hate canonist in landstill. I much prefer meddling mage. Mage is not as good vs storm, but you should have a fair MU against storm anyway and its not THAT bad of a MU, meddling mage can name survival and thats the most important point today.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mossivo1986

why r u running telemin performance in the board? It's terrible.

---

Because it wins the mirror (and TES if they play no creatures).
I also board it in against show & tell.

IRT ivan:
Yeah, I think I want to add red for the FSpouts. I don't like the REB's though, I feel like my singleton Telemin Performance gives me a nice I WIN button in the mirror and I prefer plagues for the goblins & merfolk as I'm splashing black for Extirpate and EE@4 anyways.

My list would be about:
Maindeck: 60

Card Advantage & Quality: 9
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Sensei’s Divining Top

Removal & Board-Control: 13
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Path to Exile
2x Humility
2x Firespout

Counters: 10
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare

Win-Conditions: 4
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands: 24
4x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
2x Island
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Mishra’s Factory
1x Academy Ruins

Sideboard: 15
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
1x Firespout
1x Telemin Performance

PS: Are there any spoiler/hide tags on these forums? Would be nice to put the decklist in spoiler tags so they don't take so much space.

Jamie, that is a similar list to my UWR Landstill, except I run Wastelands and Stifles for mana disruption which opens me back up for mana disruption. What do you think of the following?

Manabase:
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
2 Islands
1 Academy Ruins

Card Advantage/Quality:
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
1 Crucible of Worlds

Spot Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt

Counters:
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Stifle or Spell Pierce (undecided)

Sweepers/Board wipes:
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Firespout
1 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives

Wincons:
2 Elspeth
2 Jace TMS

Sideboard:
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Mindbreak Trap

I'm switching to this build, coming from UWBG landstill.
One thing i notice is the lack of ''solid'' mass removal other than EE (wich is not so ''mass'').
Is WoG really SO slow ? i mean, firespout is great, but can't kill goyf and blah blah...(you already know what i mean)
I tried 3 spout maindeck, but i'm feeling it too narrow most of the times.

Also, i notice that most of you play only 3x artifact haters in sb. Personally i would never go under 4 (either extirpate or Tormod's or relic) what do you think?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kiblast

I'm switching to this build, coming from UWBG landstill.
One thing i notice is the lack of ''solid'' mass removal other than EE (wich is not so ''mass'').
Is WoG really SO slow ? i mean, firespout is great, but can't kill goyf and blah blah...(you already know what i mean)
I tried 3 spout maindeck, but i'm feeling it too narrow most of the times.

Also, i notice that most of you play only 3x artifact haters in sb. Personally i would never go under 4 (either extirpate or Tormod's or relic) what do you think?

---

it just depends on your flavor, and what you feel is strong for your meta. go with redundancy and then expand your horizon's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mossivo1986

it just depends on your flavor, and what you feel is strong for your meta. go with redundancy and then expand your horizon's.

---

This. As consistent and strong as you can build the deck, at the end of the day, if you don't know the metagame (or have a reasonable gauge on what others are playing), you're going to have a hard time winning. Kiblast, people who splash red generally do so because Tribal/Zoo/VV Sur is a big part of their metagame, and red gives you Firespout and REBs. Firespout DOES suck against Bant, Dreadstill, CB, Tarmogoyf.dec, etc. And it's even worse when you draw multiples of them with no targets. But this is just a risk of playing Firespout and if your meta lacks fast-aggro decks, Humility/WoG are probably better choices. If u-control (other LS, CB, etc.) is big in your meta or grave-decks are big, splash black. Vindicate, Extirpate, Planar Void, and Duress are all excellent cards for slower matchups.

And depending on what your MD choices are, you don't necessarily need 4 slots in the SB for gy-hate. If you run 3+ EE, Vindicates, 2+ Sweepers, you can generally get away with 3, either Extirpate or Planar Void. Barring straight nut-draws, Dredge isn't as bad of a matchup as people make it out to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yutang

Jamie, that is a similar list to my UWR Landstill, except I run Wastelands and Stifles for mana disruption which opens me back up for mana disruption. What do you think of the following?

Manabase:
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
2 Islands
1 Academy Ruins

Card Advantage/Quality:
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
1 Crucible of Worlds

Spot Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt

Counters:
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Stifle or Spell Pierce (undecided)

Sweepers/Board wipes:
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Firespout
1 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives

Wincons:
2 Elspeth
2 Jace TMS

Sideboard:
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Mindbreak Trap

---

This deck is really reminiscent of what I used to play before I stumbled upon the magnificence that is Isochron Scepter.
Regarding your manabase, there 100% should be 4 flooded strands and 2 other fetches, instead of the 3/3 split you currently have in your fetchlands. Flooded strand will get you every colored land in your deck, whereas the two fetches you have in there have to exclude one of your basics. This isn't a huge hole in your deck though, just a tiny fixable point. Instead of playing 2 Islands, I run 1 Island, I Plains, and 1 Tolaria West in my UWR Isochron Scepter build and have NEVER regretted it. The Tolaria West is SO good in a variety of circumstances like fetching EEs, Wastelands, Factories, and is a Thoughtseize proof Tormod's Crypt post board if you run them like I do.
Hope that helps.
Also, I'm glad to see all the renewed discussion in this thread. Keep it coming all.

Played UWr Landstill to a 5-0 record in a local tournament winning a BB Badlands.

2-0 Elf Survival
2-1 UB Merfolk
2-0 Dark Horizons
2-0 Zoo
2-0 UBG Tempo Threshold

The deck is amazing and very strong in the current metagame. With 4 Spell Snare and Humility Vengevine matchups are favorable for Landstill. The red splash is strong for giving you Lightning Helix and Pyroblast from the board, which makes Merfolk slightly positive as well.

My list was pretty standard with 4 Spell snare, 2 Decree, 1 Elspeth, 1 Humility, 24 Lands and a pretty good sideboard. All credits for it go to Marius Hausmann (Wasteland)

Quote:

---

This. As consistent and strong as you can build the deck, at the end of the day, if you don't know the metagame (or have a reasonable gauge on what others are playing), you're going to have a hard time winning.

---

I agree. If you don't know your meta, then you shouldn't be playing Landstill; as it's primarily a Metagame deck. You don't take landstill into unknown metas and expect to have good results consistently, as you don't know what to expect. This is why redundant decks have such great success across the board. This always seems to follow suit with combo and aggressive decks, which in short terms means the following: If you are running landstill in a predicted aggresive meta (IE mefolk, goblins, cat zoo etc.) then firespout is quite obviously going to be a more acceptable approach. However most Legacy metagames with 15 plus players are starting to develope a wide aray of archtypes. this is why fundamentally Landstill shouldn't run limited removal, or removal that is swingy 50 percent of the time. Landstill deals with certainties; not maybes.

Quote:

---

Kiblast, people who splash red generally do so because Tribal/Zoo/VV Sur is a big part of their metagame, and red gives you Firespout and REBs.

---

I agree that these cards can be useful post board.

Draener once mentioned to me that if you both side out the same number of cards, and your matchup is really mediocre to bad; how does your matchup improve? Now there are exceptions to this rule of thumb obviously, but this is why more universal cards are just better. Sure you side in your blasts, your firespouts, and different forms of board control; but are you really prepared for an opponent who sides in red blasts and choke? or Teeg for CB lock? In my experience i'd rather 1. Play better cards or 2. Play a more aggressive deck.

Quote:

---

Firespout DOES suck against Bant, Dreadstill, CB, Tarmogoyf.dec, etc. And it's even worse when you draw multiples of them with no targets. But this is just a risk of playing Firespout and if your meta lacks fast-aggro decks, Humility/WoG are probably better choices. If u-control (other LS, CB, etc.) is big in your meta or grave-decks are big, splash black. Vindicate, Extirpate, Planar Void, and Duress are all excellent cards for slower matchups.

---

I'm not going to nitpick specific card choices in regards to a controllish metagame. Other then perhaps Jupiter (and I dont even know if thats still flooded with Landstill) I don't know of many metas that a flooded with Control decks. Almost every metagame ive played in for the last year and a half is pretty mid-range/ aggresive.

Quote:

---

And depending on what your MD choices are, you don't necessarily need 4 slots in the SB for gy-hate. If you run 3+ EE, Vindicates, 2+ Sweepers, you can generally get away with 3, either Extirpate or Planar Void. Barring straight nut-draws, Dredge isn't as bad of a matchup as people make it out to be.

---

It depends on game-plan mostly. A strong dredge player will roll landstill pretty consistently. It's very difficult to fight a deck that doesn't want to be interacted with, and for a deck with almost no clock and no creatures, thats very easy for dredge to assume its combo plan. Granted if you see the hate you see it, but don't knock on dredge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Muradin

Played UWr Landstill to a 5-0 record in a local tournament winning a BB Badlands.

2-0 Elf Survival
2-1 UB Merfolk
2-0 Dark Horizons
2-0 Zoo
2-0 UBG Tempo Threshold

The deck is amazing and very strong in the current metagame. With 4 Spell Snare and Humility Vengevine matchups are favorable for Landstill. The red splash is strong for giving you Lightning Helix and Pyroblast from the board, which makes Merfolk slightly positive as well.

My list was pretty standard with 4 Spell snare, 2 Decree, 1 Elspeth, 1 Humility, 24 Lands and a pretty good sideboard. All credits for it go to Marius Hausmann (Wasteland)

---

Congrats!!! So you run UWr configuration???

Does anyone know what Jupiter Landstill lists are looking like these days? I can't find results for that location anywhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Does anyone know what Jupiter Landstill lists are looking like these days? I can't find results for that location anywhere.

---

I know that the Top 8 list this past weekend was BUG and not UWx. To be honest, I haven't seen UWx played at any event recently.

The list you came up with is interesting, but not interesting enough to pry me away from playing Survival at the moment. The results I've had with Survival are more positive than what I think Landstill could do in this metagame. Even against what I played against at Vestal this past weekend, in only one matchup would I have liked to play Landstill (Survival Elves), and that's still a long stretch. Just not worth it right now, in my opinion. Too much flex needed to adjust to any metagame, one wrong card choice and you find yourself dropping early.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morbid-

I know that the Top 8 list this past weekend was BUG and not UWx. To be honest, I haven't seen UWx played at any event recently.

The list you came up with is interesting, but not interesting enough to pry me away from playing Survival at the moment. The results I've had with Survival are more positive than what I think Landstill could do in this metagame. Even against what I played against at Vestal this past weekend, in only one matchup would I have liked to play Landstill (Survival Elves), and that's still a long stretch. Just not worth it right now, in my opinion. Too much flex needed to adjust to any metagame, one wrong card choice and you find yourself dropping early.

---

I think pretty much everyone who has played this deck for a while now is feeling similar. This deck can definitely beat Survival, but in order to do so you have to skew your card choices so much that you end up having a far weaker matchup against decks you should be beating (CB, Rock, Bant).
In all honesty, after getting stomped by Goblins AND ProBantx2 (I did manage to beat 2 UG VVSurs though), I'm putting this deck away, at least until December 20th. It's just to hard to try and catch the three biggest decks right now (TES, Gx Sur, Folk), and not lose to everything else. Deedstill just has better game against the Survival and Merfolk decks naturally and doesn't need to bend-over backwards to beat them, keeping their game against all the other stuff in the format.
But to anyone who is a masochist and wants to keep going with UWx, I'd say black splash is probably better than red *RIGHT NOW*. Extirpate, Perish, and Engineered Plague are extremely useful right now, and Spell Pierce is a fine substitute for REB/Pyroblast. You're matchup against Folk is slightly worse, but you have a much better chance against just about everything else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mana Drain

But to anyone who is a masochist and wants to keep going with UWx, I'd say black splash is probably better than red *RIGHT NOW*. Extirpate, Perish, and Engineered Plague are extremely useful right now, and Spell Pierce is a fine substitute for REB/Pyroblast. You're matchup against Folk is slightly worse, but you have a much better chance against just about everything else.

---

I agree here, which I guess helps reiterate both of our points for this situation. If you happen to stuff your board full of (what I would think is the right quantity of) the following:

4 Engineered Plague
3 Perish/Nature's Ruin
3 Extirpate

You really only have 5 slots open. I generally like to increase the number of StP/PtE effects for the aggro matchups, and in this case it would be crucial to have something more against Merfolk than Engineered Plague. When you start thinking along this line of thought, you come to a point where the sideboard just becomes dysfunctional against everything else. No room for Negates, barely space left for GY hate, etc.

This is essentially a biggest problem with control decks right now - you can't squeeze answers for everything. You can tune to beat every deck, but all your other match ups are going to suck.

Non-control decks get away by presenting their own threats. Who cares about being unable to answer the opponent, if you're attacking for 16 with Vines, or Tendrilsing him to death. Or beating with a bunch of lords or 10/10 KoTR, etc. We don't have that luxury. Not until WoTC prints something ridiculous.

This is the list that I have fine-tuned looking at today's meta. I think it has strong matchup against Vengevival, KotR.decs, and has a slower 50/50 matchup amongst Merfolks and boasts a decent matchup against combo.

UWb Scepterstill:
Lands: 24
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

2 Isochron Scepter
2 Orim's Chant
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds

SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path to Exile
3 Extirpate
3 Negate
1 Orim's Chant
3 Peacekeeper
2 Ethersworn Canonist


Highlights:
- 6StP effect MD should give a good matchup against most aggro field (Bant, Zoo, Gobs, Merfolks). Combined with 3 EE, and drawing a Scepter to imprint either StP/Path/Chant will steal game 1s unexpectedly. I would suggest -1 Path, -1 Crucible, -1 FoF, +3 Spell Snare if you meta has a ton of Survival. I run my package because my meta doesn't play Survival. We see a lot of tribal/KotR/Bant.

- Counterpackage MD is weak: 4 Counterspell, 4 FoW. Aside from combo blowing you out game 1, you still have 2 Chants to surprise-fizzle so game 1 is not entirely a blowout. Lists with Spell Snare wouldn't do as well against combo than lists with Chants. Chant has more applications to many more matchups but Spell Snare is quite critical today.

Postboard:
Combo: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate, -Humility/Wishes etc
Enchantress: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate
Survival: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper +1 Path
Dredge: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper (wow gg lol)
Stax/stompy: +3 Negate, +1 Chant maybe
control: +3 Negate, keep wishes in
Countertop: you should win it easily
Tribal: +1 Path, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper against Merfolks (dont board Peacekeeper against gobs).
If you suspect heavy Grips boarded in, board out Scepters and put in Peacekeepers etc. It all depends on the deck you're playing against.

I was having problems with just 4StP MD against Merfolks, so hopefully the 6 StP effect is sufficient enough to stabilize and get Chant/Peacekeeper lock before winning.

Just a list and thought to throw out for people interested. I've been testing Scepter Chant for about 2 months after Knappstill's success. I don't have as much experience as Knapp, but it's definitely a strong list that isn't widely played. It has its own strength but demands a different approach to control. The only advice that I can give is: The deck isn't a ScepterChant deck. It plays as a control deck, all decisions/strategies should be made from a control-standpoint and not from a ScepterChant standpoint. If you're bent on setting up ScepterChant, you've lost most of the games due to bad mentality.

This is the list that I have fine-tuned looking at today's meta. I think it has strong matchup against Vengevival, KotR.decs, and has a slower 50/50 matchup amongst Merfolks and boasts a decent matchup against combo.

UWb Scepterstill:
Lands: 24
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

2 Isochron Scepter
2 Orim's Chant
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds

SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path to Exile
3 Extirpate
3 Negate
1 Orim's Chant
3 Peacekeeper
2 Ethersworn Canonist


Highlights:
- 6StP effect MD should give a good matchup against most aggro field (Bant, Zoo, Gobs, Merfolks). Combined with 3 EE, and drawing a Scepter to imprint either StP/Path/Chant will steal game 1s unexpectedly. I would suggest -1 Path, -1 Crucible, -1 FoF, +3 Spell Snare if you meta has a ton of Survival. I run my package because my meta doesn't play Survival. We see a lot of tribal/KotR/Bant.

- Counterpackage MD is weak: 4 Counterspell, 4 FoW. Aside from combo blowing you out game 1, you still have 2 Chants to surprise-fizzle so game 1 is not entirely a blowout. Lists with Spell Snare wouldn't do as well against combo than lists with Chants. Chant has more applications to many more matchups but Spell Snare is quite critical today.

Postboard:
Combo: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate, -Humility/Wishes etc
Enchantress: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate
Survival: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper +1 Path
Dredge: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper (wow gg lol)
Stax/stompy: +3 Negate, +1 Chant maybe
control: +3 Negate, keep wishes in
Countertop: you should win it easily
Em
Tribal: +1 Path, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper against Merfolks (dont board Peacekeeper against gobs).
If you suspect heavy Grips boarded in, board out Scepters and put in Peacekeepers etc. It all depends on the deck you're playing against.

I was having problems with just 4StP MD against Merfolks, so hopefully the 6 StP effect is sufficient enough to stabilize and get Chant/Peacekeeper lock before winning.

Just a list and thought to throw out for people interested. I've been testing Scepter Chant for about 2 months after Knappstill's success. I don't have as much experience as Knapp, but it's definitely a strong list that isn't widely played. It has its own strength but demands a different approach to control. The only advice that I can give is: The deck isn't a ScepterChant deck. It plays as a control deck, all decisions/strategies should be made from a control-standpoint and not from a ScepterChant standpoint. If you're bent on setting up ScepterChant, you've lost most of the games due to bad mentality.

This is the list that I have fine-tuned looking at today's meta. I think it has strong matchup against Vengevival, KotR.decs, and has a slower 50/50 matchup amongst Merfolks and boasts a decent matchup against combo.

UWb Scepterstill:
Lands: 24
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

2 Isochron Scepter
2 Orim's Chant
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds

SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path to Exile
3 Extirpate
3 Negate
1 Orim's Chant
3 Peacekeeper
2 Ethersworn Canonist


Highlights:
- 6StP effect MD should give a good matchup against most aggro field (Bant, Zoo, Gobs, Merfolks). Combined with 3 EE, and drawing a Scepter to imprint either StP/Path/Chant will steal game 1s unexpectedly. I would suggest -1 Path, -1 Crucible, -1 FoF, +3 Spell Snare if you meta has a ton of Survival. I run my package because my meta doesn't play Survival. We see a lot of tribal/KotR/Bant.

- Counterpackage MD is weak: 4 Counterspell, 4 FoW. Aside from combo blowing you out game 1, you still have 2 Chants to surprise-fizzle so game 1 is not entirely a blowout. Lists with Spell Snare wouldn't do as well against combo than lists with Chants. Chant has more applications to many more matchups but Spell Snare is quite critical today.

Postboard:
Combo: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate, -Humility/Wishes etc
Enchantress: +3 Negate, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 ETutor, +3 Extirpate
Survival: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper +1 Path
Dredge: +3 Extirpate, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper (wow gg lol)
Stax/stompy: +3 Negate, +1 Chant maybe
control: +3 Negate, keep wishes in
Countertop: you should win it easily
Emrakul/Progenitus: +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper
Tribal: +1 Path, +1 Chant, +3 Peacekeeper against Merfolks (dont board Peacekeeper against gobs).
If you suspect heavy Grips boarded in, board out Scepters and put in Peacekeepers etc. It all depends on the deck you're playing against.

I was having problems with just 4StP MD against Merfolks, so hopefully the 6 StP effect is sufficient enough to stabilize and get Chant/Peacekeeper lock before winning.

Just a list and thought to throw out for people interested. I've been testing Scepter Chant for about 2 months after Knappstill's success. I don't have as much experience as Knapp, but it's definitely a strong list that isn't widely played. It has its own strength but demands a different approach to control. The only advice that I can give is: The deck isn't a ScepterChant deck. It plays as a control deck, all decisions/strategies should be made from a control-standpoint and not from a ScepterChant standpoint. If you're bent on setting up ScepterChant, you've lost most of the games due to bad mentality.

Metalwalker, your Goblins match looks pretty rough. All you have to side in is a Path and a Chant and pray you get the Scepter-lock, against a deck running 4 Vials and 8 pieces of land-hate. Humility will do you some good, but you only run 1 not Tops to dig for it. I really think you need a sweeper in the board like WoG or more Humility. If you DON'T get the Scepter-lock, you will get overrun by their CA engines, and StP effects (no matter how good they are) just won't cut it against Ringleader and Matron. Some type of sweeper-Esq effect is really necessary to deal with their late-game.
I only point this out due commonality of the matchup in most developed metagames. If yours has no Goblins then the list looks pretty solid.

I personally find Merfolks to be tougher than Goblins with my list. My meta has about 2 Gobs + 2 Merfolks weekly with gobs recently disappearing. I don't find the matchup that tough because unlike Merfolks, my factories are actually useful whereas in Merfolks they just Islandwalk and Coralhelm beats the crap out of Legacy.

When playing against gobs, I keep StP/Path on Lackey, Allow Matron to resolve, and save my counters for Ringleaders. I do have a Humility MD that is fetched with Cunning Wish (so the effective number is 3 if Cunning Wish is solely used to fetch EE/Humility). From experience, these tribal matchups get very tough when they keep waste landing you AND having Vial. If they have either strategy, you can usually recover but when they slap on Waste + Vial, it becomes very unfair. I've upped my basic count to 5 (3 island, 2 Plains) because I'm really tired of losing my lands to Wastelands. It's worked quite well so far. I don't expect Gobs to be huge, and if they do get popular again, 3 Peacekeeper can be swapped out for 3 Plagues. I'm liking Peacekeeper although in the above list, you have a Peacekeeper effect with a Scepterchant.

I would really like to squeeze 2 Top or 2 Spell Snares in but the only cards that I can possibly cut are:
- Crucible
- Humility
- 2 Fact or Fiction
- 2 Orim's Chant (I've thought about this and I will probably do this, ScepterChant isn't the deal in Landstill, it's really Scepter that's the strongest card in Scepterstill).

I am reluctant to cut Fact or Fiction. It's true that I'm leaning back to more than 6+ 4cmc spells again (I usually run 4-5) but Fact or Fiction is an old card that has not received attention after Jace's penetration into Legacy. After testing it and re-evaluating it, FoF is as strong as Jace (in 1 turn, it is much stronger and much more cost-efficient than Jace giving speedier answers and almost guaranteed wins, however, where games are required to drag out, Jace is more cost-efficient and powerful.

I'm wondering what are people's opinion of FoF. I know it's usually slower against combo etc, but the philosophy I had was:
A resolved Fact or Fiction usually wins games (almost always, it's just whether you can get to resolve it)
A resolved Jace usually wins games (almost always, it's just whether you can get to resolve it).

FoF grabs the cards immediately and setup for future turns, just as Jace would. FoF is more concerned with the immediate state of the game where Jace seeks to create inevitability. When you play BOTH FoF and Jace, you get a balance of having answers fast immediately, or setting up with a win-con with Jace, not to mention if your FoF piles have some form of Planeswalker, you would be getting quite a lot of resource by making the decisions tough on your opponents. Basically, if games get to the point where you can cast Jace/Elspeth, Fact or Fiction is relevant in winning games. It's a funny odd feeling, because I feel tremendous power when Jace sticks, but when a FoF resolves, I feel that I've won the game. And the feeling isn't a feeling, it actually wins games. I think it's time to beat an old dead FoF-horse again lol.

Chants are probably the weakest cards in the deck. If you're going to run Scepter, I think you should back it up with the most consistent and versatile cards possible, and Chant is neither consistent or versatile. I fully support removing it for 2 Tops (or Spell Snare, if you so choose).

I personally feel that Jace is control's Survival/Ad Nauseaum/Dreadnought/Tarmogoyf. He's the card that your opponents don't want to see and have to answer quickly. When he hits the table he says "Hey dude, if you don't remove me, you die in 6 turns. And even if you do remove me, I'll mess up your draws, Brainstorm every turn, or just unsummon your dudes away."
He's a draw engine, a stall piece, a disruption piece, and a fast (important!) win condition. A side bonus is not having to worry about SnT Emrakul/Dreadnought/Iona.

But if you choose to run multiple Jace's, you have to dedicate more slots to StP/Path/Firespout/etc. to protect him, which can be a downfall for people who like to play more counterspells rather than removal. It's all personal preference, but my testing has shown that 1for1ing you opponent as much as possible, then dropping a Jace with counter-backup to be a very solid gameplan. DISCLAIMER: This plan is significantly less solid against Canadian Thresh or any type of heavy Tempo deck.

I went 4:2 with UW/r last weekend.

Played 24 lands, 2 Humility, 2 Jace, 2 Elspeth, 6 Swords, 3 Firespout, 1 Explosives. No Decree, Crucible, A. Ruins, Wasteland.

1:2 vs ANT
0:2 vs Merfolk
2:0 vs Slivers
2:0 vs Belcher
2:0 vs BG Dark Depths-Loam
2:0 vs UG/b Tempo-Thresh

In hindsight I'd probably cut an Elspeth for a Decree (though I've never lost a game once I had Elspeth on board) and definitely the Standstills for some real card draw.

With every deck having some amount of cheap beatsticks/Aether Vials/Manlands/Wastelands/etc. it's really hard to actually gain an advantage under Standstill. There were a bunch of occasions, when something like Compulsive Research would have easily put me way ahead and Standstill did not.

For example in my last match-up (where Standstill is a considerably good card!), I already dealt with two 'Goyf and a Mongoose, but my opponent had another 'Goyf ready. I only had 2 Factories and a Top vs his 5/6, so I topped, put Standstill (as the only relevant card) on top and played it on my turn.
Now this put me in a bit of a jeopardy, b/c I could block his Goyf with my 3/3s to kill it, but if he then had an instant it would pop my Standstill and grow his Goyf to a 6/7.
Luckily my opponent decided to force the Standstill and I found Path 3 cards down my library, so it turned out well for me, but only b/c my opponent blatantly misplayed.

Nice!

I like to quote this:

Quote:

---

1:2 vs ANT
0:2 vs Merfolk

---

IMO, Combo + Merfolk + Aggro Loam are the true tough matchup for Landstill. Combo + Merfolk will always exist so unless Landstill addresses these issues, it will always remain a non DTB, not to mention having to fight through plenty of other viable tough matchups, but these 3 matchups are the toughest from my experience so far.

I'm convinced that Merfolk is a totally screwed up and retarded deck. The deck has WAY too many creatures yet packs up to 12 permission cards and 8 draw cards. It's gross and unfair. Last week, I went 2-1-0 with my UWb Scepterstill and plowed 9 Fish with Scepter (He was at 47 life). I Jace'd him though lol.

I feel that there are a lot of 'unconventional' tools that can be used to improve the above matchups. Countertop engine will solve the combo problem although you can take a traditional list with SB of 3 Negates/Pierces + 2-3 Canonist/Meddling Mage and have about a 50/50 post matchup. Merfolk would require either Peacekeeper (not so effective anymore after meta is adapting to it), more StP/REBs/Firespouts to beat it or Humility. Aggro Loam is by far the toughest matchup, it depends if they draw the nuts and lock you out a little with Chalice. The build my friend uses is very resilient, 3 EE, 3 Pulses MD, and it makes winning and stabilizing much slower.

Last week, I tested my UWb Scepterstill list without 2 Chants MD, picking 3 Spell Snares over it. The matchups went well but I didn't perform as well, mainly because I made play mistakes. I'm not convinced cutting 2 Chants MD is the right call because there were times where 2 Chants MD definitely steal games and you want to abuse the suprise factor in game 1 rather than board chants in games 2/3 where you opponents are preparing against Scepter. So in hindsight I'll revert back to 2 Chants main. The Snares have been great, although I'm not sure if 2 SDT over 2 Spell Snare would increase the overall effectiveness of the deck. You'll miss out on countering critical 2 cmc spells, but at the same time, you will have a lot more digging power into answers like EE.

Regardless, I am not too terrified against Merfolks with my UWb Scepterstill list. If you stick a Scepter with Path/StP (I was playing 4 StP, 2 Path) which was great, they cannot win unless they draw way too many creatures and tempo you by a counterspell on your Scepterd' StP. That happened quite a few times, and it goes to showing how sweepers are relevant against decks like Merfolks and pinpoint removal only go that far. They breed too fast. However, this has made me wonder if I should be playing 2 WoG again, because sticking a Scepter in play forces my opponents to overextend, and WoG becomes stronger. I'm still unsure what to do, but I'm confident with the power of Scepters in the list, because they do quite a lot game 1 at winning games.

I'll probably play Gobs next week, we had like 5 merfolk players last week...


Also, I was thinking of dropping Elspeth 2 of 1 Decree. I feel that Decree and FoF are the 'speedier' versions of Elspeth and Jace. Drawing multiple planeswalkers suck (you can argue you want multiples because they will answer them, but truth is, do you really want to tap out and play a Planeswalker to get it countered and lose because you tapped out? No, you want to play them when you have the position to protect it, therefore multiple planeswalkers in hand sucks). Decree gives about 3-5 activations of Elspeth when cycled, and gives a defensive position, FoF is Jace on drugs but cannot argubly replace Jace simply because Jace is powerful. I'm working and testing a list which has 1 Decree, 1 FoF as redundant slots for the 2nd Elspeth and 3rd Jace, and since both Decree/FoF fulfill the slots of Planeswalkers with the benefit of not being the multiple card-slots, I think this maybe worth a try. Just a suggestion out there, am I getting it entirely wrong or does that sound reasonable?

There are quite a number of times where I wished Elspeth was Elspeth 2/Decree of Justice (mainly wishing i had more chump blockers), and there were many times where I just needed to see more cards than a Jstorm. I guess running 2 SDT over FoF is argubly better since it digs constantly from the start of the game, but drawing cards off FoF and clearly shaff is too strong in the mid/lategame that matters.

fallenpheonix, why the cut in EEs? I realize it may be slow in a faster metagame, but would handle EtW from the Belcher and ANT deck, sweeps the board against MeatHooks, kills Mongoose in the Tempo deck, and is still of merit in the Fish match, where you can usually 2for1 or at the least blow up a vial. And that's just looking at the matchups you posted. EE has been run as a 3-of for years for a reason. It's damn useful, and easily the most versatile removal we have.

I understand the feelling that Standstill can be lackluster, but it's pretty much the best draw-spell U-control has at it's disposal. This is a sad statement to make, but more or less true. As soon as you take it out of the deck, it really alters how you play. You no longer get to be aggressive and slam one down on the second/third turn to slow the game to a crawl. It alters how opponents play against you, always trying to keep a threat on the board so they don't let you Ancestral for 2 mana. FoF is the only other conceivable draw spell that has any merit whatsoever, and while amazing, it changes the way the deck plays dramatically. It forces you to be far more cautious with removal and sponge more damage than is generally considered "comfortable". It's fine as a 1-2of *supplement* to Standstill, but taking Standstill out of the deck turns it into much more of a draw-go deck, instead of taking initiative and dropping threats like Jace/Humility/Elspeth/DoJ/whatever.



Metalwalker, if your meta is heavy in Merfolk, you probably should be playing red. Engineered Plague is not nearly as good against Merfolk as it is against Goblins, and Firespout is simply amazing against both. Red blasts in the board also make Merfolk a lot easier, in addition to being useful vs. any blue deck. But if you're going to stick with black, you definitely need 3-4 EPlague, in addition to 6-7 total sword effects between the MD and SB. Humility still does a number on Fish, and they don't run removal (generally). Just do everything in your power to keep LoA off the table, because he negates all of your Elspeths, DoJs and Factories. This is where the Swords/Paths/Blasts come into play.

Really, I think you should probably be playing Ugbx. It handles all of those matchups listed very effectively. Check that thread for ivanpei's list, as he has a pretty solid SB that metagames for Combo. Extirpate kills Loam, and you have Deeds, EEs, and Grips to remove any Chalices. Duress and MM's in the board significantly help the Combo match and are useful in a variety of matchups. Plagues, Paths, Deeds, and EEs hate on Fish decks. Never underestimate the power of Deed to just blow people out of the game.
It's better equipped to deal with a wider range of strategies than any of the UWx lists can be tuned to. Oh yeah, it also has a dramatically better VVSurvival matchup than UWx can ever claim to have, but who knows how long that matchup will be relevant.


I've been working on a non-Standstill based U-control deck for the last two weeks, and it's really difficult to find draw engines in Legacy. To any doubters who think that Standstill is not the best draw spell we have, try building a control deck without it. Jace is probably the best card advantage machine we'll ever have, but he's mostly used as a finisher, takes time to get online, and is always a the biggest target on the board, thus we need something to supplement him i.e. Standstill/FoF/etc. I should be posting the list I have in the N&D deck section in the near future, so we'll see where that goes.

Good luck everyone!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mana Drain

fallenpheonix, why the cut in EEs? I realize it may be slow in a faster metagame, but would handle EtW from the Belcher and ANT deck, sweeps the board against MeatHooks, kills Mongoose in the Tempo deck, and is still of merit in the Fish match, where you can usually 2for1 or at the least blow up a vial. And that's just looking at the matchups you posted. EE has been run as a 3-of for years for a reason. It's damn useful, and easily the most versatile removal we have.

I understand the feelling that Standstill can be lackluster, but it's pretty much the best draw-spell U-control has at it's disposal. This is a sad statement to make, but more or less true. As soon as you take it out of the deck, it really alters how you play. You no longer get to be aggressive and slam one down on the second/third turn to slow the game to a crawl. It alters how opponents play against you, always trying to keep a threat on the board so they don't let you Ancestral for 2 mana. FoF is the only other conceivable draw spell that has any merit whatsoever, and while amazing, it changes the way the deck plays dramatically. It forces you to be far more cautious with removal and sponge more damage than is generally considered "comfortable". It's fine as a 1-2of *supplement* to Standstill, but taking Standstill out of the deck turns it into much more of a draw-go deck, instead of taking initiative and dropping threats like Jace/Humility/Elspeth/DoJ/whatever.



Metalwalker, if your meta is heavy in Merfolk, you probably should be playing red. Engineered Plague is not nearly as good against Merfolk as it is against Goblins, and Firespout is simply amazing against both. Red blasts in the board also make Merfolk a lot easier, in addition to being useful vs. any blue deck. But if you're going to stick with black, you definitely need 3-4 EPlague, in addition to 6-7 total sword effects between the MD and SB. Humility still does a number on Fish, and they don't run removal (generally). Just do everything in your power to keep LoA off the table, because he negates all of your Elspeths, DoJs and Factories. This is where the Swords/Paths/Blasts come into play.

Really, I think you should probably be playing Ugbx. It handles all of those matchups listed very effectively. Check that thread for ivanpei's list, as he has a pretty solid SB that metagames for Combo. Extirpate kills Loam, and you have Deeds, EEs, and Grips to remove any Chalices. Duress and MM's in the board significantly help the Combo match and are useful in a variety of matchups. Plagues, Paths, Deeds, and EEs hate on Fish decks. Never underestimate the power of Deed to just blow people out of the game.
It's better equipped to deal with a wider range of strategies than any of the UWx lists can be tuned to. Oh yeah, it also has a dramatically better VVSurvival matchup than UWx can ever claim to have, but who knows how long that matchup will be relevant.


I've been working on a non-Standstill based U-control deck for the last two weeks, and it's really difficult to find draw engines in Legacy. To any doubters who think that Standstill is not the best draw spell we have, try building a control deck without it. Jace is probably the best card advantage machine we'll ever have, but he's mostly used as a finisher, takes time to get online, and is always a the biggest target on the board, thus we need something to supplement him i.e. Standstill/FoF/etc. I should be posting the list I have in the N&D deck section in the near future, so we'll see where that goes.

Good luck everyone!

---

I'm aware that UWr > UWb against Merfolks, but I think Gobs > Merfolks if it is that Merfolk heavy :P

I've tested EPlague against tribal. It's a beating against Goblins but not so much against Merfolks. It usually requires you to cast it at 4 mana since they run Daze. Unlike Gobs, Folks run way too many lords that EPlague basically shrinks them so you don't die faster. UWb is not designed to beat Merfolks. It's mostly designed to beat the other aggro matchups and have a stronger control/combo matchup, which is what I'm fond of. I don't find Merfolks impossible to beat, but they're definitely the tougher aggro matchup.

Oh trust me, LoA is like Bob in Legacy when I play Landstill. He never sticks, I will never waste an StP on a Folk and always keep it for LoA, or at least always know that I have outs to LoA or it's game over. Just as the Merfolk player knows how to bait counter and removal, as the control player I know that they are doing just this, so I will always keep an emergency backup answer to LoA while trying to control the board with what else I have.

Regarding control lists, I've tried without Standstills but I think the power of Standstill in creatureless control decks is priceless. I personally think that as long as the meta isn't 50% or greater saturated with Merfolks, 3 Standstill is a solid choice for any control deck not runnign creatures as their main win condition. For instance, my Punisher deck is a Countertop PFires/Groves control deck that plays 3 Standstill. A lot of non-conventional Landstill/non-Landstill lists I make contain 3 Standstill. The reason being: If you're opting for a pure-control deck i.e. without Goyfs or creatures, then you are usually in a situation where you are trading counter/removal 1-1 on opponent's creatures, or using cards to save your ass. When the tide has died down, how do you win if you and your opponents are both in a state of similar card/board-parity? You play Standstill, which not only breaks the board parity in your favor (assuming you play manlands) but also it breaks card-parity by forcing them to crack it, and from there on, give you the winning position.

Good luck on the list and I hope to see it soon. I've put aside my Punisher list for now since the meta is no longer focused on tribal/Merfolks. PFires/Groves aint' too great when the meta is Survival dominant although I can tell you how awesome it is at pinging Hierarchs and pridemages and slowing those decks down while setting up for wins later on.

Quote:

---

I understand the feelling that Standstill can be lackluster, but it's pretty much the best draw-spell U-control has at it's disposal.

---

I also thought that it was the best draw spell in Legacy for quite some time. But recently it just never felt as unfair as before to drop a Standstill, except vs decks where the matchup is already pretty favorable (i.e. stupid Aggro, slower Aggro/Control).
Even when it was good, it wasn't much better than Compulsive Research, because I almost always had a spare land or dead cards in my hand.

Quote:

---

why the cut in EEs?

---

You already named the reason, it's too slow.
Firespout does most of the jobs EE does, but it's waaayy more efficient in most situations. Actually, most of the threats nowadays are creatures or Survival of the Fittest. EE deals with neither of them efficiently enough. I still run one because it's flexible enough to occasionally be useful w/o being dead most of the time. But it's pretty close to being cut entirely.

Ahh, how I miss the days when Ruins+EE meant *GG* from most opponents :)

Actually the biggest threads for Landstill are Aethar Vial, Chalice of the Void, Surviival of the Fittest and Tendrils of Agony. Explosiv is perfect against at least 3 of them, considering that you can allways keep Survival of the table via Snare and then use EE to blow up their field of creatures with cc2 (wich are quite a lot in the UG build).

Aggro Loam ha never be a problem for me, as Meddling Mage can handle this deck pretty damn well plus you got the above mentioned Explosives and usualy enought basics to prevent recurring Wastelands from hurting you.

Currently I'm heading for Ur Dreadstill, as Landstill has lost to much power in my eyes to be as good as it was some moths ago, hopefully this will change post b/r.

I must dissent.

- Chalice doesn't see any play around here (probably b/c the decks including it are so awful right now).

- Aether Vial is a valid threat and probably the one single card that explosives can handle adequatly.

- Survival is a big one, but you can't be serious about Explosives being good against it. Sure, EE can kill a Survival one turn 4 (turn 3 if you spend two turns on it), but that's a little bit too late and they get a bunch of free activations regardless. They get at least 2-3 cards out of it by dumping Genesis, Squee, Vengevine or whatever and getting Witness or Fauna Shaman to kick your butt once you blow up explosives.

- Tendrils? I wouldn't call that real a threat. That's like calling Lightning Bolt a threat because it can dome you.


All of the above (except Tendrils) are artifacts btw, so the "best" solution would actually be Disenchant? Not really, because you forgot about all these:

- Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, LoA, Coralhelm Commander, Knight of the Reliquary, Fauna Shaman, Vengevine, Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer, etc...

My guess would be, for every single Aether Vial or Survival I encounter, I see 6-7 of the above. And Swords/Path/Bolt/Fire/Firespout/Humility all are much more efficient and/or effective against them.

EE is an okay card b/c it's versatile, but far from awesome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fallenphoenix

EE is an okay card b/c it's versatile, but far from awesome.

---

EE is a mandatory 3-of, irrespective of metagames and shell variants, period.
It is far from not being awesome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by klaus

EE is a mandatory 3-of, irrespective of metagames and shell variants, period.
It is far from not being awesome.

---

I couldn't agree more. Nothing short of a banning of EE could get me to stop playing it.

So Tendrils leads us to TES or ANT , I hope this was quite clear, sorry if you got this wrong (and even in this MU EE can kill a bunch of Goblin Token if they go for this option (and yes in this case it's 1 turn faster then Firespout). Explosiv can't really deal with a resolved Survival if it isn't allready in play, however if I look at the current UG VV Survival list then you can usually set up EE on 2 even if they don't have a Survival online, as the deck has only acces to Stifle to prevent EE (or waiting to have Survival +2 creatures in there hand to start the Engine, giving you all in all more time to dig for solutions). I don't say that Explosiv is a real answer against this deck, but it surely is a lot more versatil then Spout.

I can see that in a meta where Zoo, Merfolk and Survival are the dominant factor you might consider Firespout over Explosives, however this card provides an answer against nearly everything. Nacatle, Lavamancer, Kird Ape? check. LoA, Coralhelm, Silvergill Adept? check. Tarmogoyf and KotR (aka to big for Firespout)? check. Any non creature with cc0-3/4? check.

EE deals with turn 1 Vial, that's enough for it to warrant playing since Vial decks are your worst aggro matchups.

Opponent: turn 1 Vial
You: EE@1
Opponent: Drop a 2cmc Dude and sighs as you blow up his Vial and you plow EOT drop a Standstill

Or he could be a noob and vial in Lackey in response to the EE.

EE improves the weak matchups that are otherwise difficult to beat: Stax/Bloodmoon/Enchantress/Opposing EE/Chalice/Counterbalance.

I can't state how powerful it is against Chalices/Counterbalance since you can set it to funky cmcs with all the colorless mana sources you run.

Aether Vial is the only card that forces you to run EE. But if you have other ways to deal with Aether Vial (Nevinyrral's Disk and Humility) then it's definitely not mandatory, because it's a bit slow. I personally run 0 mainboard, but 3 in my SB to deal with Pithing needle and it's one of the best weapons against Zoo and Merfolk.

Quote:

---

Opponent: turn 1 Vial
You: EE@1
Opponent: Drop a 2cmc Dude and sighs as you blow up his Vial and you plow EOT drop a Standstill

---

Unless you play some Moxen on the way, I don't see this happing.

More like:
Opp T1 - Island, Vial, go
You3 T1 - Land, EE@1, go
Opp T2 - "Oh, how nice, you're tapped out!" Island, Merfolk Lord, go
You3 T2 - Land, Blow up EE, go
Opp T3 - "Oh, how nice, you're tapped out!" Land, Merfolk Lord, Attack for 3, go
You3 T3 - "Oh crêpe!"

This isn't much better on the play, they still get a guy into play while you are busy handling their one-drop. And they have a gazillion cards that disrupt you, when you try to recover from that loss of tempo.

It's not that EE is a bad card, it's just too damn slow vs most decks that define my metagame (i.e. Survival, Merfolk, Zoo).
It does nothing vs a horde of Vengevines coming at you (Firespout is not much better but at least it does clear the board for a turn) and not enough vs the namesake card itself.
It is (imho) too slow vs Merfolk, especially it's just worse compared to Firespout as a sweeper.
It is okay vs Zoo, but again, Fiespout does get rid of most of their stuff and Swords/Spell Snares get the rest.
Yeah, it's better vs. tokens of all kinds, but that doesn't make that much of a difference.

However, that's just my experience and whatever works for you may be just fine.
But sitting there, saying something like "3 EEs is mandatory, period, no metagames apply!" is just pretty dumb? I mean, you could actually produce an argument. I know you can do better, klaus. :)

Sorry guys don't want to be arrogant, but i cannot understand a couple of things:

why is people playing firespout over wrath ??? no reason to my view. is the reason merfolk and all his daze/catcher/pierce? So please run 4 peacekeeper side with 2/3 jace maindeck and stop crying about merfolk mach-up. PK is GG even with 100 vialsl and lords on board.

survival is the hot card at the moment right? what's the card that kill survival decks? OH yeah! the one in my deck!!! IT'S HUMILITY!
the issue is not to destroy survival's enchantment, but to survive with a couple of remouvals and counters until you drop humility.
... of course destroying it is good. but you want to destroy in order to drop humility still alive!

and here comes cunning wish: It should be 2X and mostly targetting enlightened tutor for humility. also pulse of the fields shoud be in 100%.

in this metegame control deck is the right choice... just need to understand what's important and what is not

the hot cards of landstill in this meta are to my view:

2 humility
4 peacekeeper side + jace main (which is good also vs survival deck...)
2 cunning wish mainboard (come on, don't tell me the metagame is fast !)... also to have 4 virtual humility

... i see people running just 1 of these 8 metagame cards ...
and of course complaining about merfolk speed and survival strength.

maybe i am wrong... what you think?

i would not run cunning toolbox when i can play enlightened tutor toolbox wich is much faster, much more useful pre and post sb, and generates insane card advantage when it fetches standstill.
I mean: land, go, force their threat, eot tutor a standstill, turn 2 standstill. To me this sounds broken.

I'm running 1 Humility and 1 Moat, but my meta is completely full of Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, and other random aggro decks. There is not so much survival.

I run 3 Peacekeeper in the sideboard.

I persnoally dislike Cunning Wish, found it too slow and clunky to be useful.

Just my two cents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by serendib

and here comes cunning wish: It should be 2X and mostly targetting enlightened tutor for humility.

---

running directly 3x enlightened seems a better idea, unless you don't want to tutor a tutor , wich gives basically access to your humility on turn 5 (turn 3 cunning wish, turn 4 enlightened, turn 5 draw and cast humility). If you think that answering even a subpar aggro deck on the 5th turn is good, probably you never played against goblins, merfolk, or Zoo. You can't always rely on Wog because you run 2 of them and they're not even tutorable. I think one should have instant access to his Humility / Moat at any time in the game, and within 1 turn maximum be able to cast it.Turn 4 Humility/ Moat VS turn 5 really, REALLY makes the difference and saves your ass.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kiblast

i would not run cunning toolbox when i can play enlightened tutor toolbox wich is much faster, much more useful pre and post sb, and generates insane card advantage when it fetches standstill.
I mean: land, go, force their threat, eot tutor a standstill, turn 2 standstill. To me this sounds broken.

---

so the situation at the end of your turn 2 is:

you have 2 lands in play + standstill + 2 cards in hand !!! 2 cards in hand!!! (and tapped out)
(what happened if opponent had daze on your stanstill ? I can tell you... you lost!)

while opponent has 6 cards but has not started his 2nd turn.

do you think that's broken??? I don't think so. opponent would draw (so he has 7 cards) and play somethink and make you draw 3. you rise to 5 cards tapped out. WOW.

cool play. but not that cool.

I would use card-disadvantage cards only for really broken plays. such as wish->tutor-> humility.
and wish doesn't allways be card disadvantage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kiblast

...humility on turn 5 (turn 3 cunning wish, turn 4 enlightened, turn 5 draw and cast humility)...

---

this is to my view a really poor play because you make your opponent understand what you want to do 2 turn after!
turn 4 cunning wish.

cunning wish is 1 turn slower than searching humility via enlightened tutor maindeck.
Sorry but landstill is not afraid of goblins.
landstill is afraid of merfolk and thus i run 4 peacekeeper side.
... zoo match up. cunning wish has pulse of the fields as target most of times vs zoo... don't you think pulse of the fields is a good target???