All B/R update speculation.

The best deck of the format is delver. Delver in any combination is a Tier 1 and aggro decks are the most played right now. If you ban Veil of summer or Oko, you must ban Delver of secrets first.

Historycally blue creatures don't have a 3/2 flying for :u:
Delver decks are 18 fo the 40 % of aggro decks (mtgtop8).

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Absolutely correct.



You really don't. Plenty of decks are actively pleased to see someone throw a turn for it; the fact that people aren't treating those decks like real decks illustrates what's really wrong with the format.



Veil of Summer was meant to be used for what the card says on it. Deal.



You sound like quite the authority on what I should be using my cards to do when you're losing when those cards do what they do when I play them. It's like a fallacy, or something.

Chalice of the Void continues to be the worst thing for Legacy gameplay since the Reserved List, but nobody seems to care that it actively forces people to play bad cards in order to stand a chance against it. It's like the community won't acknowledge its own blind spots, or something. Don't pretend that a two- or three-drop planeswalker is too good when Dark Ritual or Chalice of the Void is a legal card. It's insulting, and not to me.

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Chalice is a great card. I dont want to play a format where the only viable cards are 1CMC. Imo, they should have never banned Mental Misstep either. Fuck 1CMC hyper efficient spells. We have 20k cards to choose from yet we cant get out of a lightning bolt + brainstorm paradigm.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Chalice is a great card. I dont want to play a format where the only viable cards are 1CMC. Imo, they should have never banned Mental Misstep either. Fuck 1CMC hyper efficient spells. We have 20k cards to choose from yet we cant get out of a lightning bolt + brainstorm paradigm.

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Early contender for worst post of 2020

Nah, chalice is one of the gatekeepers of legacy, just like FoW and Wasteland and Blood Moon to a lesser extent. As long as it's useful, the meta stays relatively healthy. Whenever they are not useful [edit: even more so, perhaps, when they are overly useful], it indicates there may be meta problems [this needs to be refined and extrapolated, will leave as is though]. Vast oversimplification just to illustrate the idea..

Edit: in relation to the next post, and the previous, it doesn't ultimately matter if it's fun when it serves to keep degenerate strategies in check. In my view.

Oh boy, the ol' "things I don't like are bad, things I do like are good" argument again. We haven't done this for a thousand pages...

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

I like the concept of Veil. However, it is being used offensively, and the card needs to be used defensively. If Veil were used by historically green decks, I would say it is a good fit. Veil has Storm excluding discard spells and including Veil (and perhaps Defense Grid) and that is no good.

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Force of Will is supposed to be used defensively, but players are using Force of Will to remove potential blockers and resolve Show and Tell. Sorry but for the good of the format we need to ban Force of Will.

Veil isn't used historically by green decks because A) it was just printed last year thus has no history and B) historically green decks suck. When you have to print ridiculous bullshit like Questing Beast to make your color somewhat playable without Brainstorm there is something fundamentally wrong. Every color needs some form of powerful, maindeck playable stack interaction to make the cut.

Edited for autocorrect messing up some words

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Originally Posted by Watersaw

Veil isn't used historically by green decks because A) it was just printed last year thus has no history and B) historically green decks suck.

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Yeah, to say that I don't understand an "appeal to historicism" would be an understatement, so I agree completely.

Consider things just before Alliances came out. Then Force of Will bursts into the meta. Now, people could have, and rightly so, stated "Blue has never been able to counter a spell for zero mana!" That is true, until it is not. The notion that we should be locked into some precedent simply on the merit of precedence makes no sense to me at all. That is utterly conservative to the point of absurdity. There is a place for something like a normative claim, but not precedence as a justification for precedence, that just smacks of circular logic (and belies there is something else likely going on).

Most decks, looking to protect from countermagic, ran Red, on the back of 'Blasts. Now, there is reason to consider Green and suddenly the sky is falling. Why is/was the Reddening of Blue decks acceptable, but a Greenening bad for the format? I mean, outside the notion of personal opinion. "[Green] [sh]ouldn't do that!" really isn't a case, as far as I can tell.

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Originally Posted by Watersaw

When you have to print ridiculous bullshit like Questing Beast to make your color somewhat playable without Brainstorm there is something fundamentally wrong. Every color needs some form of powerful, maindeck playable stack interaction to make the cut.

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How many Questing Beasts made top 8s? Green is still underpowered.

They need to make a Questing Beast variant with stack interaction that also rewards playing green cards.

The Last Beast 2GG
Legendary Creature - Beast
Flash, Trample, Vigilance.
Can't be countered except by spells whose mana cost was paid.
When ~ ETB, target spell, permanent or player gains hexproof until the end of turn.
While your devotion to green is 6 or greater, ~ has hexproof, deathtouch and indestructible.
5/5

Features:
- High enough power level to justify 2xForest
- Interacts with the stack, but compatible with Green's role in the color pie
- Rewards playing other green cards instead of Island
- Pseudo-unkillable, but not in a boring uninteractive way like TNN

To me, it’s something along the lines of “green shouldn’t have such a big ability to manipulate the stack”. It’s the big beaters colour. The destroy things colour. But not the stack manipulation colour.
If it were (g) 1/1 flash you have hexproof, it wouldn’t feel so bad I think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Chalice is a great card. I dont want to play a format where the only viable cards are 1CMC. Imo, they should have never banned Mental Misstep either. Fuck 1CMC hyper efficient spells. We have 20k cards to choose from yet we cant get out of a lightning bolt + brainstorm paradigm.

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love you, man! ^^

me and you bro...
https://i.imgur.com/TrQiSF8.jpg

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Originally Posted by Watersaw

Force of Will is supposed to be used defensively, but players are using Force of Will to remove potential blockers and resolve Show and Tell. Sorry but for the good of the format we need to ban Force of Will.

Veil isn't used historically by green decks because A) it was just printed last year thus has no history and B) historically green decks suck. When you have to print ridiculous bullshit like Questing Beast to make your color somewhat playable without Brainstorm there is something fundamentally wrong. Every color needs some form of powerful, maindeck playable stack interaction to make the cut.

Edited for autocorrect messing up some words

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This is the first post i have ever seen where someone wants to ban force of will

All other posts says force of will holds the format together

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Originally Posted by atopebenidorm

The best deck of the format is delver. Delver in any combination is a Tier 1 and aggro decks are the most played right now. If you ban Veil of summer or Oko, you must ban Delver of secrets first.

Historycally blue creatures don't have a 3/2 flying for :u:
Delver decks are 18 fo the 40 % of aggro decks (mtgtop8).

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Luck sack and aggressive flyers were in red

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

This is the first post i have ever seen where someone wants to ban force of will

All other posts says force of will holds the format together

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Look up DrJones in this thread.

1 mana cryptic Command (Veil) as well as orim’s chant basically for G is absolutely bananas and anyone who says it isnt is lying to you lol. Its already the best hate card ever printed for its role...whether Wizards thinks it needs to go is to be seen. But Id say its on top of their watchlist

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Originally Posted by schweinefettmann

To me, it’s something along the lines of “green shouldn’t have such a big ability to manipulate the stack”. It’s the big beaters colour. The destroy things colour. But not the stack manipulation colour.
If it were (g) 1/1 flash you have hexproof, it wouldn’t feel so bad I think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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How do you feel about true name and delver? Those are def. The wrong colour

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Originally Posted by Rood

1 mana cryptic Command (Veil) as well as orim’s chant basically for G is absolutely bananas and anyone who says it isnt is lying to you lol. Its already the best hate card ever printed for its role...whether Wizards thinks it needs to go is to be seen. But Id say its on top of their watchlist

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The card is very good but is only good VS Blue & black decks. Is not a Deathrite, Gitaxian or w&6. You always plaw white, red, green and artifact colours if you are wrecked by Veil. I think is good because blue based decks are the most powerful and veil moderate this issue.

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Originally Posted by atopebenidorm

The card is very good but is only good VS Blue & black decks. Is not a Deathrite, Gitaxian or w&6. You always plaw white, red, green and artifact colours if you are wrecked by Veil. I think is good because blue based decks are the most powerful and veil moderate this issue.

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I agree with this and bruizar on chalice. These cards are only very good because of the meta. If you want to adapt to them it's not difficult.

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Originally Posted by itslarryyo

How do you feel about true name and delver? Those are def. The wrong colour

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1 mana 3/x? Oh, that must be green right?
No? Because it's an evasive aggro creature that lucksack triggers from instants & sorceries? Oh, ok, it's red.

3 mana 3/1 protection from everything. Green? White? Artifact that needs Metalcraft to turn on?

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Originally Posted by atopebenidorm

You always plaw white, red, green and artifact colours if you are wrecked by Veil. I think is good because blue based decks are the most powerful and veil moderate this issue.

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Of course, just play Zoo. Wild Nacatl does so well against Dark Ritual.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

This is the first post i have ever seen where someone wants to ban force of will

All other posts says force of will holds the format together

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I don't actually want Force banned, I'm trying to point out the absurdity of wanting a card banned because it's not being used "for the correct reason" whatever that means.