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At a minimum if you want to push green and not blue splashing for green you need to be looking at GG as a cost at least. Otherwise, if you print a powerful green card it will just go into regular delver/xerox shells anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Unless that card was aggressively costed or very color dependent it would just be absorbed by Xerox decks. At the end of the day the best thing to do in legacy will be to play 4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder, 4x Force of Will and then fill in from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Edit: Ninja'd
Is 1UG not aggressively costed or color dependent enough? If Wizards gave this hypothetical new best 3/3 engine as a card that also pitches to FoW, is that a problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Depends on what you mean by "Make green good".Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
If you mean you want the top deck to be Temur instead of Grixis, Simic instead of Izzet, then sure make powerful cards that are G, 1G, (Anycolor)G, or 1UG, etc . . .
If you mean you want the top deck to "Have green but not have blue" you need to print a busted ass card with at least GG in the mana cost OR some new crazy elf OR some hilariously broken green enchantment for Enchantress.
Excellent cards will _always_ get co-opted into blue shells, since blue can do what other colors can't (or at least can't do anywhere as good), and what amounts to the best mechanics in this game: Reactively neutralize stuff on the stack, and draw cards. Since the best cards in other categories (aggressiveness - Delver; evasiveness - True-Name Nemsis; etc.) have also been printed in U over the last years, U is less dependent on "support" colors, except for removal. That doesn't mean U shells won't adapt if there were a new threat to be printed that simply outclassed pretty much everything else, even with GG in its mana cost (remember Ug Survival?).
You'd have to specifically make it nigh-impossible for U to do that, if you don't want anyone do it successfully. "You can't cast ~ if you control an Island." type of stuff.
I don't think you need to make it nigh-impossible for U to run it, just make it incompatible with their general strategy, e.g. Once Upon A Time is a great example for that. Sadly, WotC continues the trend of making hate cards one-sided instead of affecting both players. Constraints breed creativity, but WotC is too much on the "feel-good"-train which results in their regular fuck-ups and bans lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
An example for a card that wouldn't slot well into blue decks: (and no, this shouldn't be a shitty card creation thread or power level discussion, just an example to illustrate):
The Cruader :w::w:
Legendary Creature - Human Knight
First Strike
Non-white spells cost :1: more to play.
Other white creatures you control get +1/+1.
2/2
The taxing makes it very unattractive to run too many non-white spells in the same way Thalia isn't run by blue decks. The Crusade effect encourages you to run quite a few white creatures to capitalize fully on it.
Thing is, we won't get blatant anti-blue cards anytime soon. But there are other ways to make powerful cards unattractive for blue.
Skylasher comes very close. If nothing else it surprise kills a delver, flipped or otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
I'm pretty sure that card is too good to be allowed in DnT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Colorshifting it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
lol what, you better errata that to green spells cost :1: less to cast right nowQuote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Yeah, it's probably fine to add Glimpse of Nature to a hexproof creature type - elf alongside something that makes one-mana elves free.
/sarcasm
BUT GUISE MAKES INFET REALLY GOOD! Ban Brainstorm!Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Something like - Lurking Ambusher - GG - 3/2 Flash, ReachQuote:
Originally Posted by Cire
I think a creature that combined an effect like Bind and a 2/2ish body with flash would be cool - if you add Blue, all the FOW decks will splash it, if you do 1G, they may splash too, so it's got to be GG or GGG (or I guess GG1) would work too. There should be a creature for GGGG that is just awesome. And then one for GGGGG that just rocks, has to be have at least 3 more abilities than Reality Smasher.
They tried printing creatures with GGGGGG and even GGGGGGGG (Primalcrux, Khalni Hydra) but even Devotion to Green decks don't run them. How many more Gs do they need?Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
At 5 cmc with multiple abilities... Vorapede, Oversoul of Dusk, and Thornling are magic cards.
Great points - and every one of the cards listed above dies to STP, so GGGGG is spent on a creature, and it dies with a W instant?Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
That's why these cards don't work. The GGGG or larger creature needs hexproof, probably needs haste or a way to gain haste, and needs power 6 or a way to grow.
As an aside, I think the way to "fix" Astrolabe is to make it activate with Snow Mana (not generic), so there is some constraint around color production.
LOL @ Astrolabe being used to cast a GGGG hexproof haste 6/6 in Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Sadly they will probably try it if you don't stop it. I played in a Standard format where you were supposed to curve 1UUU into 2GGGG into RRBBBUU. Control just plays all the best cards if you give them the mana.
Edit:Craterhoof BehemothQuote:
The GGGG or larger creature... probably needs haste or a way to gain haste, and needs power 6 or a way to grow.
Unfortunately Gaea's Revenge and even Carnage Tyrant don't see play, not even in Nic Fit. What even happened to Thrun, the Last Troll?
Overthinking it. The issue is that it turns into a haste, cantripping Rogue Elephant; as such an opponent can’t really play walkers into a Astrolabe on board. Get rid of Oko and Astro is can’t do double duty as a wincon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
A few things: Terminus and Council's Judgment made Hexproof not matter, True-Name Nemesis walled it, and Monastery Mentor outclassed Thrun as a threat. Thrun's already gone, but if he wasn't, Oko would push him out. The last time I played Bant, it was a couple years ago, and I tried two Thruns in the board. They ended up being too slow and GG was too steep of a color requirement for a three-color deck in a Back to Basics era.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
As an aside, means it is a different issue. Astrolabe should be banned (as is), I'm not talking about it casting large green creatures. - What "happened" to Thrun was that it can't beat Tarmogoyf, Gurmag Angler, Reality Smasher, Delver of Secrets, and True-Name Nemesis, so when spend 4 when you can spend less for better? That's why I'm saying, the green creature needs haste and power 6 so that it is one of the biggest threats in Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I think even if Oko is gone, you will still find 4 and 5 color control decks utilizing Astro to take advantage of 1 cc instants (STP, Pyroblast, Veil, etc.) - I think the way to fix Astro is to require snow mana in - obviously, this isn't going to happen, they don't issue erratas anymore, so I would say ban Astro in Legacy. If control players want to run 3, 4, and 5 colors, they need to run dual lands and face threats like Wasteland, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, and Choke. Astro literally lets you run basic land and have better color fixing than the decks that run non-basics. Astro is a nice idea, but over-powered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
For a green creature to be good, it needs to have some type of defense against spot removal and hopefully sweepers, and needs evasion or to be larger than the other creatures it will encounter.
Thoughts would be a creature that leaves a token behind or re-casts itself if it dies by a sweeper.
A mechanic called "Hibernate" or "Retreat" would be cool - something like, "if this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, remove it from the game with X slumber counters on it. During each of your upkeeps, remove a slumber counter. When the last slumber counter is removed, you may cast creature without paying its mana cost (and possibly creature gains haste).
The idea behind "Hibernate" is that spot removal wouldn't kill larger green creatures, it would just make them disappear for a few turns until they came back to fight again. Something to make STP sting a little less.