[Deck] Solidarity

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Originally Posted by Seraphus

And how many times do you start combo and fizzle because you draw lands? Or because you draw the wrong cards?

Think about it...

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I'm not sure you really understand the decklist I posted. Let's be clear: absent disruption, the build I posted does not fizzle (ever) if you assemble three lands and Tide-Snapcaster-Snap-Intuition. You are entirely draw independent, and don't need to worry about sorceries clogging up your hand. It is a guaranteed instant speed decking.

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Is there a reason everyone is trying Snapcasters in monoblue builds? If it does produce such an absurd amount of mana then why aren't we playing Hunting Pack? It works well against aggro. You go off in response, block all their shit and then swing back for the kill. For example... Remand your opponent's spells, Repeal your opponent's creatures, and then Tangle --> Snapcasting your way to the win sounds like it could catch on.

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I've not actually found Snapcaster/Snap to generate much mana; in fact you need two High Tide in play for it to generate any mana at all. What the combo does, though, is generate massive amounts of storm without requiring you to draw cards. In this sense, then, it is better suited to a cheap Brain Freeze kill.

That said, there is an alternative. If you are willing to play Reset (over Snapcaster) and Merchant Scroll, High Tide/Reset/Reset/Cunning Wish is just as easy to put together as Tide/Snapcaster/Snap/Intution - easier in fact, because you can Scroll for every card in the combo - and is a guarenteed turn 3 win via Hunting Pack. It's a half turn slower (because you have to go off on their turn, which means their turn 4 in half your games), but it also allows the deck to play the slower game if you so desire; Snap Tide does not benefit from additional land drops the way Reset Tide does.

This alternate combo opens you up to Wasteland (though you can still make it work if you fetch a Forest), but is less vulnerable to soft counters because it generates extra mana.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

@Seraphus
Ah but Solidarity does combo between turn 3 and 5 when you play against aggro, and thats the context I'm referring to. I have no problem with control decks as they lose to well timed countermagic. Aggro decks steam roll us if we take too long to setup. So... we can do one of two things, generally speaking:
Make the Solidarity faster
Make aggro slower

Best way to make aggro slower? Thats the discussion really. I think fog effects are sick, and Tangle is the best one with Snapcaster. You seem to like Dismember, Repeal, and Remand, and obviously your post-board. I like Repeal and Remand in my maindeck, can't say I've played with Dismember but I'd think that Repeal would be better as it hits permanents as well (in the case that you run into permanent hate which should come about if High Tide gets bigger), it replaces itself, and you don't have to pay 4 life. I guess you find yourself targeting Lords with it, which in theory should slow down aggro, but at the expense of 4 life and 1 card, does it get there AS WELL AS something else could?

At the expense of 0 life, you could slow down that attack phase for 2 whole turns, including the one you are in, and again if you have a Snapcaster. Its like a fucking virtual Timewalk for 1G against aggro. Wouldn't you want play that? Also, Tangle lets you drop lands, possibly replacing the Tropical Island that gets wasted (if it does). I think everyone can calm down about exposing your deck to wasteland. We should be playing Snap in the maindeck now, and that will help us go off with fewer lands against an opponent who is Wastelanding our shit. Just be careful with your fetchlands and know that you might need to set up a 4 turn virtual time walk through Wasteland.

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For me splashing is not an option, it weaken the deck (mana screw situation are common in this deck and vs a wasteland drawing a tropical when screw isn't that good).
The thing is dismember is the only one 1 cmc drop that effectively deals with creatures...

Did some actual gauntlet testing; Snap Tide against Zoo, Goblins and Merfolk.

Snap Tide absolutely wrecks Zoo and Goblins; it's just too fast and too consistent. If they hold back burn and leave mana open you'll not want to risk the "standard" combo because Bolt on Snapcaster in response to Snap wrecks you (unless you have another Snap). Instead, lean on Cloud of Faeries and Meditate to combo off "traditionally".

Merfolk was another matter, as you can imagine. I actually won most of my matches, but I still felt that Merfolk was favoured. Daze was not nearly as helpful as I thought it would be, although I suppose it did draw some counters. We don't have enough mana in this build to use Flusterstorm, so Pact of Negation seems like the next best thing.

The deck is fast, and it's powerful, but I don't actually like playing it, strangely. Perhaps I'm just too much of a Solidarity traditionalist, but I dislike the control I'm giving up over my opponent's plays and my decreased resilience to disruption. I also miss the inevitability that Reset Tide brings to long games.

I think, barring new cards being printed, a Snap Tide build is "better" than a Reset Tide build. It's faster, more consistent and better at dealing with hatebears.

I'm just too attached to my Resets right now to consider abandoning them.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

I'm just too attached to my Resets right now to consider abandoning them.

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With this in mind; would you consider adding 'x' snapcaster, and/or 'x' snap, to a more traditional Reset build; assuming you leave out intuition.

I have not had a chance to test snapcaster, but mid combo and to a lesser extent prior to combo, he looks to offer flexibility (effectivly a graveyard tutor). I've never played with snap, so need to test this, but remain unconvinced of its worth at this time........ but with any change there is always the age old question 'what do you take out'.

I also beleive deck must be evolved and alternatives tested (even sorceries from time to time in this instance).

,why neglect reset? This card gives life to the deck. Solidarity does not need to combo off as fast as possible but in the right moment using the tools we have to delay enough to the opponent: fow, repeal, dismember and remand. The rest are cantrips and winning conditions.

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Originally Posted by alastair

With this in mind; would you consider adding 'x' snapcaster, and/or 'x' snap, to a more traditional Reset build; assuming you leave out intuition.

I have not had a chance to test snapcaster, but mid combo and to a lesser extent prior to combo, he looks to offer flexibility (effectivly a graveyard tutor). I've never played with snap, so need to test this, but remain unconvinced of its worth at this time........ but with any change there is always the age old question 'what do you take out'.

I also beleive deck must be evolved and alternatives tested (even sorceries from time to time in this instance).

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In general, snap makes the deck faster, at the cost of fragility of the combo. Spring tide goes off turn 3, occasionally 4 whereas solidarity goes off turn 4, preferably 5. Spring tide is more affected (although you can play around it) by creature removal, and therefore more fragile. It also should be noted that high tide eclipsed both of these decks before MM came out. Spring tide is faster, but high tide is an amazingly consistent and durable t4 kill.

I don't think snapcaster-tide belongs in this thread. Solidarity is a combo/control deck. Spring tide is the version of that deck that opts for sorcery speed cantrips and the cloud/snap combo. The list is really just spring tide + snapcaster and intuition, that can go off at instant speed in certain circumstances. Moreover, it *plays* like spring tide - being a pure combo deck. The elements of control from solidarity are not there.

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Originally Posted by chuck2657

Moreover, it *plays* like spring tide - being a pure combo deck. The elements of control from solidarity are not there.

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Agreed, but I may not have been clear. I'm not looking to play spring/tide, as I prefer the element of control/disruption Solidarity offers; FOW, Flusterstorm, Repeal ... or any combination of your preference.

I don't have a lot of time to playtest, and was seeking advise on whether 2-4 Snapcaster are worth the MD space. Without testing, it looks good on paper, acting as a tutor mid-combo for Tide, Reset, Pact, etc as the need demands, or pre-combo for Brainstorm / dig & a chump-blocker to buy a turn.

Perhaps adding 3x Snapcaster MD; cutting repeal (as Snapcaster acts as a blocker), and leaving 1-2 Wish for FOW/Pact, tools to deal with re-shuffle effects, and a final copy of Freeze/Hunt (ie: 4x Tide and Meditate MD).

The correct number of snapcasters is 4. Generally at it's worst it reads "UU1 - Prevent the next 3 damage dealt to you, draw three cards, then put two back on top of your library in any order"

Personally, I like snaps and Intuitions (without Wishes) but I can see arguments against them. ScM on the other hand, should be a 4 of, no question.

A card I'm testing in a traditional build right now is Vendilion Clique; it's disruption before the combo, as well as removal, and a cantrip during the combo.

Anyone else tried this line of play before?

And also is a target for the snaps... it seems a good idea. I'll try it too

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

A card I'm testing in a traditional build right now is Vendilion Clique; it's disruption before the combo, as well as removal, and a cantrip during the combo.

Anyone else tried this line of play before?

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It's been suggested for Solidarity in my playgroup. It's obviously a solid, solid card, and opens up the possibility of winning by bashing them over 7 turns.

But I don't think its' optimal for Solidarity. We don't really want 3 mana card cycle. You'd rather tutor with Cunning Wish on turn 3 than draw 1.

We have plenty of other cards that specifically plays the way our strategy calls for, rather than a card that is strong and versatile.

I especially don't see Vedillion Clique making the cut now that we have Snapcaster to play with.

WARNING; Contains slightly bad humour, irony, sarcasm and a bit of bragging. May contain bad writing and attitude problems, etc...

Hi fellow instantcasters! I just wanted to make this tiny semi brag-post!
Last night came back from a 41 player GPT Amsterdam here in Finland; went virtual 6-0 on the swiss (4-0-2 for "reality" due to understandable reasons) against a diverse field...The maindecks decklist being exactly the same solid "old school build" as before;
Matchups being;
r1
WhiteWheeniehatebears
-Play around a leonid arbiters & canonists & such; easy.

r2 / r3
Burn
Play around turn two; 3 goblin guides attacking, and on the third turn opponent attempting to deal total of 24 damage in the game. "Easy"; Hunting Pack=nuts.

Ant;
Opponent didn't have t1 or t2 kills that would go through Force/remand/disrupt/fluster/twincast
the rest of the game was just basic wait&win at your leisure...
r4 Reanimator
Game 1 opponent is a bit slow (and gets no animation spell with brainstorm/ponder &carefull study, thus I don't even need to waste force of wills or hit any of my business into dazes)
Game 2 is tighter, as the threat of Iona hangs there from t1 carefull study into topdeck Iona.
The sideboard is golden here, and after some serious disrupting, remanding, flusterstorming and force of willing, the 3rd topdecked reanimate WITH a single counterbackup each(on a 4 turn interwall(turns 2-5 gives me the urge to start digging something solid with meditates&impulses, relatively fast I see a Twincast. Twincasting the reanimate gets my opponent pretty confused, and once the dust clears out and some relatively witty remarks like "haven't seen that one before" are thrown from someone watching the play,
the Iona starts bashing after a skipped turn from the right side of the table banning black for "just in case"...

r5 Elves
ID. Didn't bother to play even for fun, but afaik this matchup is a bye? (atleast been previously)

r6 Painter against a "friend" (played most of the match;and would have won, took the ID anyway for attempting to stack the top8 favourably (with all the legal information and options and numerous questions with the judges if and how and when and with what information;etc we're allowed for the choosing of ID.)
Also a joke of "hey, my opponent offered me X for conceding..." to the judges caught as into nice theoretical discussion of HOW to give opponent a DQ with cruel cheating,that needs a fake witness and propably makes the cheaters nose bleed afterwards... ;)

Hurray, split win of the swiss; Time for top 8
BWG hate bears with plenty of discard, against a player who knows that deck inside out, and knows what happens in this matchup relatively well. Lost the die roll, which is BAD.
opening hand consists of 7 instants. 6 card hands are not going to make it against t2 Thoughtseize&hymn (with a bird acceleration) followed by a t3 hymn and beaters.
G2 is easy picking, as I get to go first and disrupts, remands and flusterstorms do efectively timewalk for all the practical purposes (although I try to make mistakes with the going off and thus just need to brainfreeze for lethal and hope there's no shenanigans like Blessing&whatnot.)
g3 again nice 7 spell opener, and the 6 cards again doesn't make it against double hymn&thoughtseize. (almost any "mediocre" 7card hand Or winning the dieroll would have made it under the disruption, but alas "we played some magic".)

But hey, I had a point also with this rant; those familiar with this kind of build/version of this deck; ANY really good&serious techy ideas for the sideboard(or mainboard) as I'd be seriously interested in somehow squeezing in 4 disrupts &2 diverts (or 3&3 in addition to the flusterstorms) or any other seriously good sideboard plans? Anyone? ;)
Anyways, see you at Amsterdam! ;)

Yours truly,
Nuorukain (Mikko Hyvärinen)
List for reference and to be mocked for your leisure! ;)
Instant [42]
4 Reset
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
2 Opt
2 Brain Freeze
4 High Tide
4 Force of Will
3 Turnabout
2 Peek
1 Twincast
4 Brainstorm
4 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
Land [18]
10 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
1 Brain Freeze
1 Twincast
1 Meditate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Hibernation
2 Disrupt
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hunting Pack
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Cryptic Command
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Echoing Truth

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

A card I'm testing in a traditional build right now is Vendilion Clique; it's disruption before the combo, as well as removal, and a cantrip during the combo.

Anyone else tried this line of play before?

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At the moment I'm testing a single maindeck Leviathan. It's a very good way of switching the gameplan. Since when your opponent knows he's dealing with a Solidarity player, he will always shuffle away his Swords to Plowshares after a brainstorm. Then you surprise them with this huge boss. Clique would be a real good addition to the creature strategy.

My playgroup also suggested a single Cruel Ultimatum to deal with various kinds of situations.


Come on man, are you serious about Clique? Since your explanation really didn't make any sense at all!

Double

@ Nuorukain: Congrants and thank you to return this thread to solidarity lists (classic builds are still amazing right?)

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Originally Posted by Spigore

At the moment I'm testing a single maindeck Leviathan. It's a very good way of switching the gameplan. Since when your opponent knows he's dealing with a Solidarity player, he will always shuffle away his Swords to Plowshares after a brainstorm. Then you surprise them with this huge boss. Clique would be a real good addition to the creature strategy.

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We're talking Stormtide Leviathan right?

How has that been working out for you? I honestly can't see how this would fix important issues except Counterbalance. You're not faster this way than you will be comboing out normally. The reason Solidarity is not a good deck atm is tempo.

I think he was being sarcastic...

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Originally Posted by Zinch

I think he was being sarcastic...

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Like button...

Yeah probably it's either that or inkwell leviathan. But stormtide leviathan seems better since it's a pseudo moat so they can't kill us with their creatures.

If you're trying the classic leviathan that you have to sack islands to you're awful btw.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

Yeah probably it's either that or inkwell leviathan. But stormtide leviathan seems better since it's a pseudo moat so they can't kill us with their creatures.

If you're trying the classic leviathan that you have to sack islands to you're awful btw.

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he was joking :/