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Agree- I think that totally depends on the situation but yes, surgical extraction is underperforming. I play cages as I dont really need extraction that much since the combo mu is alrdy good and its not worth the slots vs random loam.. and even then its mediocre at times like u said. Cages really boost the Ichorid/(reanimator) MU (which is played alot more then the decks where I really NEED surgical).
Has everyone completely cut Snapcaster out of their configurations?
yes.
Yes, no Snapcasters here.
To bring back the topic I wanted to start last page....
Leyline of the Void vs Grafediggers Cage
Even though you have to mull for LotV our deck should be able to find enough lands to stabilize with our 8 cantrips, grafediggers cage on the other hand wont rescue us from the T1 Dredge-I-Kill-You when were on the draw... So Id really play the Leylines?
What do you think?
No Snapcasters here, also.
Don't miss it.
4-of each Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf and Delver here. I considered a single Snapcaster, but how often are you realistically seeing him?
As for GY Hate, I am currently using a mixture of 2x Tormod's Crypt and a single Surgical Extraction. Additionally, as sideboard space is as scarcely as ever, I am considering a single Engineered Explosives again. It won't help vs. Reanimator, but blows up Zombie Tokens, Germs or Mother of Runes all day long. 2x Crypt + Extraction + 2-3 Pierce +x is a lot to bring in vs. Reanimator, though, so I am fine with only 3 dedicated GY hate in this MU.
I am rather concerned about the Maverick matchup, as it seems to have establised itself as the go-to aggro deck at the moment. Maybe it's just me, but I hate dealing with mother-protected Knights. Because of this I tried to explore other decks most recently, for example UBr with a strong tempo package as well as Torpor Orbs and Dreadnoughts. Black offers Massacre, Perish and Virtue's Ruin amongst others which are looking great in the current meta.
The Maverick MU is not that bad that I would consider changing to a different approach of Tempo... .
It is definetly one of the more exhausting MU's, but it is definetly winnable.
The more Fire/Ice you play, the better it gets and simply don't let you trick into getting rid of cards the Maverick player is trying to presents as threads that are weaksauce in reality(current board state). I have witnessed so often that Tempo players lost games because they made the mistake to let the Maverick player dictate what is a thread instead of deciding on their own what gives them the biggest advantage turns/tempo-wise.
Thanks for your responses, I used to run 4 Goyfs, 4, Delver, and 3 Nimbles then switched the nimbles for 3 snaps. Between the two builds, I'd choose the Nimble build over snapcasters. The snapcaster with no nimbles build was underwhelming so I switched to a build with both snaps and nimbles. The deck works fine but requires you to play 3 lands at all times, which is kinda difficult with 18 lands. I'm think of ditching snaps to.
As for graveyard hate, I'd stick to good old Tormod's crypt for the nimble builds. It has the added bonus of shrinking opposing Knights.
Regarding the Maverick matchup, do you guys sideout stifle? Some people have advised me to side them out but based on experience, I just never feel comfortable playing this deck without stifle.
Siding in Crypts against Maverick? Really?
Im outta here:laugh:.
I advice the boarding-plan of Spartan a few pages back for the Maverick MU. This is really close to the optimum.
hahaha! Not really, what I board in is 2 clasm effects, and 4 submerge. I woudn't put in tormods. Just saying he could if he wanted to. But I really prefer Tormod's versus Cage, dredge players usually board in nature's claim/ancient grudge post board, you can respond against artifact removal with Tormod's while with Cage, you cannot; however, one can still argue that you can protect cage with counterspells.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
Actually cage is way more versatile than crypt, being able not only to stop any graveyard shenanigans (aside from Life From The Loam), but also to turn off entire strategies/engines/decks such as reanimator and dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by cheerios
Cage is very useful in far more many MUs than crypt.
-Against ANT, it completely shuts down Pif, forcing them to board in their bouncers or die from ad nauseam at a low life total. (crypt does almost the same though).
-Against Elves it stops their gsz and natural orders. (which crypt does not)
-Against Nic Fit no more GSZ, recurring nightmare and flashbacked cabal therapy (crypt here doesn't work)
-You could side it in against GW(r) Maverick if you want to, but you aren't surely siding in the crypts.
But talking more specifically about the way these two cards interact with opponents' graveyard, cage as a major upside: let's make an example.
Opponent is playing reanimator, he has no bounce spells in hand/didn't side them in: he's dead to cage. Otherwise, if you have crypt on board, he does a simple thing. He tries to reanimate something, you crack you crypt in response, and then your hate is gone. Opponent is now back in the game.
Against dredge: they cannot force you to crack your cage by flashbacking ancient grudge from the grave, unlike tormod's crypt. Sure, with crypt you removed his grave, but just the little portion he needed to find an ancient grudge. With cage, he's forced to have an answer to it already in hand. This lets you counter their bouncer/claim being flashbacked therapies-proof.
To me it's that simple: cage>>>tormod's crypt.
If I were to play a sideboard with heavy grave-hate, it would start with 2 cages 2 surgical extractions, to cover all kinds of grave recursion.
Hope this helps :wink:
Not quite. Reanimator often boards in Show and Tell (which shouldn't resolve anyway due to REB/Pierce/Daze/FoW).Quote:
Originally Posted by spartan117
I agree with most of your statements.
Cage is more versatile, but I am not willing to spend more than 3 SB-slots for GY-based strategies, so I play Crypt/SE currently. When the meta shifts toward something that justifies a sideboard which is dedicated to beat decks where Cage's the deadline I would propably play 4 (3/1 SE).
I for myself feel not very comfortable boarding in these cards against Nic Fit or NO right now because a lot of players board out the NO package anyway and having a cage when it doesn't do enough is a lack of value that is back breaking IMO.
It might be that I underestimate the card (still) based upon the lack efficient tests with it though. The fact that the card costs a generic mana is also not that irrelevant.
Just to be clear: In no way reanimator is ever going to beat us consistently, show and tell is pure garbage against use, it's too costy for a deck which plays about 17 lands and needs to get through opposing daze and pierce (or reb).Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
However, I think 3 grave-hate slots are the perfect number, but I really can't find room for the third one, therefore I play only 2 cages.
I'd like you to give them a try against nic fit, you halve their ability to put a veteran explorer into play, and completely make them unable to sacrifice it. I strongly suggest them, but after all it comes to personal choices and playstyle...
Dropped the Snaps a long time ago. But what amuses me is the CB-Top package. I have a few questions, though:
1. Where do you, and do you not board it in?
2. What role (in the game) do you play if in case you board it in? Tempo? Control?
Btw, moving towards the inclusion of Though Scour(s). Not sure, however, on the Forked Bolt that Caleb was running @ GP.
Have you considered Cursed Totem? I haven't personally tested it (no time and whatever time I have right now is toward testing for the PTQ in my area soon) but I feel it like would do a lot of work in the Maverick matchup. It shuts off Noble Hierarch, Dryad Arbor, Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic, Knight of the Reliquary, Scryb Ranger etc. While it doesn't stop Knight, at least it forces the Maverick player to play as just a GW Aggro instead of a GW Aggro and Tricks kinda deck. Wasteland also becomes a lot more effective since their mana dorks don't produce mana. Qasali Pridemage can't kill it either.Just spitballing here at least. Not sure if it is THAT effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzbold
While watching the coverage, I heard Caleb Durward say he uses Sulfur Elemental against Maverick. I put some in my SB for the tournament yesterday but didn't get paired vs Maverick.
However, I do like it, it takes out Mom and Thalia cleanly, also Mindcensor if they run him. It keeps Knight in burnrange longer, but if you run the Forked Bolt a lot of people seemed to run, it also gets a lot of their other guys on 1 toughness. Of course, it is a little more meh vs non-Thalia lists I think.
Sulfur Elemental will also be good against decks that run Lingering Souls, which Legacy will probably be seeing more of after Indy.
This is the list of Kenny Castor. I think its pretty much the optimum. But why Fork Bolt > Fire//Ice - I play F/I at this slot. He placed second for all who didnt know it.
Greetings
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
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18 lands
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
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12 creatures
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
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30 other spells
Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Counterbalance
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
Kenny's list (and board) is as stock as it can get. 12 efficient beaters, the common counter suite including Stifle instead of the Pierce which came in vogue recently, a single top (signaling CB/Top from the board) and 6 burn spells.
Even Forked Lightning isn't new tech. Mayve he realised during testing that he uses Fire more often than Ice, so he replaced F/I with Forked Lightning. It's a cheaper version of the red half, it's worst drawback being sorcery speed. It however get's the job done to kill early MoR's, Delver or whatever weenie one might encounter.
When looking at Caleb's list (who took a remarkedly different approach) some questions arise for me: are those additional (conditional!) counters (Snare, Pierce) really necessary or can they substituted with more draw, library manipulation and burn? How valid is this result considering Caleb is a highly skilled player and therefore probably could get away with such a (seemingly) suboptimal list? I'd also love to hear about his matches and which sideboard cards he got to use.
I believe they run forked bolt over fire/ice or chain lightning simply because it is a sorcery and you really want to get goyf at its max as soon as possible and not waste dmg on targets, win goyf wars, and 2 dmg kills roughly the same things as 3.
I feel like at least one life from the loam is too good not to include in the 75.
Edit: yarg beat me too it