[Deck] Elves Combo

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Originally Posted by NihilObstat

Been testing the list and the greatest point I've seen in it so far is that it overpowers other lists in one important aspect: versatility.

Some lists go full Glimpse Emrakul combo, with only 1 Wincon (+ a very, very weak 1/1s aggro option)
Others go Glimpse + Vengevines ( Combo plan + a strong Aggro plan )
And others go Glimpse + Entity ( Combo--Aggro mix )
But this list has a whole of 3 Wincons ( Glimpse + Entity + Vengevine ), and depending on the situation/hand/pairing maybe one's more powerful or achievable than the other and it's easy to shift from one another.

The only thinh I'm still not sold into is playing Chord of Calling. I played the deck in a 30 players tournament yesterday, and I just lost too many games for being short on mana from Chord. The Instant factor changed the balance of quite a few games, but I felt that paying the extra mana was overall not worth this tech.

Anyway, after testing this I don't feel like going back to Summoner's (it feels too good tutoring for setting up the combo for next turn or going aggro), and Living Wish fucks the sideboard up, which I really enjoyed having yesterday by finally dropping Wish.

I would not play Elves with less than 6 tutors so I'm in a bit of a dilemma.



I'll make a brief Tournie summary from yesterday:

Round 1 - Affinity (1-2)
Game 1 - He starts hitting for 8 flying on turn 2, and tutoring up Umezawa's Jitte. I zenith into Viridian --- Cranial. After a lot of crazy shenanigans with Viridian Shaman + Symbiote, I have the board controlled and I'm going to kill him next turn. Cast shaman twice, destroying land and Mox opal leaving him with only colorless mana (At 2 life I didn't want to risk Galvanic Blast). He topdecks Plating and kills me with "flying" Signal Pest...
Game 2 - Combo turn 2 or 3.
Game 3 - Mulligan to 6, and keep a turn 2 combo hand with Dryad as my only land. He Dispatches it and I don't draw land again.

Round 2 - Elves combo (0-2)
Game 1- I know he plays Elves, and I start and think the turn 3 combo hand I keep will be good enough. It's not, he finishes me turn 2 thanks with Summoner's pact.
Game 2- I keep again a turn 3 hand which didn't work due to shitty drawing. He wins again thanks to Summoner's Pact being extremely helpful for the combo.
I would have won both games had my Chords been Summoners.

Round 3 - (2-0) I easily beat a guy named Bye. He really wasn't any good at all...

Round 4 - Burn (2-0)
I don't know you guy, but I always find burn very easy. If they bolt our guy they can't win, if they don't bolt them we win. Anyway, Burrenton and my singleton Absolute Law save me from a Volcanic Fallout on game 2.

Round 5 - Reanimate (1-2)
Game 1- The first game is always a tough one, specially against turn 2 Elesh Norn.
Game 2- He mulligans to 6 and keeps a hand with control but no combo pieces. After some turn I resolve a Glimpse and land some pointy ears, 2 Tormod's and a Qasali waiting to respond to Animate Dead. He lands Null Rod, but is not able to combo before I aggro him out.
Game 3- I keep a fast hand without any grave hate. Glimpse goes with Fow and he resurrects Iona on turn 4. I try to convince him to play Iona on White and not Green because I have Savannah untapped and Path to Exile in hand. He doesn't believe me so I scoop since I actually don't have any removal ^^

I think I could have done better, specially in the first game and really loved the list and all the strengths it has. I'm just not 100% sold on Chord yet, but everything else is great.

Would you guys keep a turn 2-3 hand against Reanimate or would you mull into grave-hate? Btw, my Tormod's should have been Faerie Macabre, didn't find any :/
I did run Extraction, but never saw it.

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What is your list, particularly the SB?

Your MU in the tournament :
Affinity: 60/40 for elfball. It is a matter of luck more than a matter of skill. Your opponent has been more lucky than you (topdeck cranial plating).
Mirror elfball : in a mirror, of course pact>>chord. Bad MU for you although mirror entity can make the difference.
Reanimate : bad MU (30/70). It is hard to find the solutions T2 or T 3. My strategy is all dedicated to graveyard hate (activated fauna means the possibility of fetching faerie macabre, ooze + cradle is an hardlock).

You say that you should have played pact rather than chord. In this metagame, I agree.
Chord is very efficient when you play in an aggro-control metagame. It wasn't the case in your tournament.

I've been testing with samman1 Gran Prix list with a just a single Priest of Titania instead of a Fauna Shaman and it's great. Priest has a great synergy with Symbiote, Mirror, Quirion. It helps to generate a lot of mana with Symbiote and Quirion, allows us to go for the Alpha Strike with Mirror and can go infinite mana with the Mirror + Symbiote synergy. It's definitely a game changer wich can be used as a surprise with the Chord of Calling and go off on your turn.

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Originally Posted by Godmode

I've been testing with samman1 Gran Prix list with a just a single Priest of Titania instead of a Fauna Shaman and it's great. Priest has a great synergy with Symbiote, Mirror, Quirion. It helps to generate a lot of mana with Symbiote and Quirion, allows us to go for the Alpha Strike with Mirror and can go infinite mana with the Mirror + Symbiote synergy. It's definitely a game changer wich can be used as a surprise with the Chord of Calling and go off on your turn.

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I agree 100%, titania is very powerful in this list, in particular when played with chord during end of opponent's turn.
I don't know how to integrate it :
- out 1 crop, in 1 titania,
- out 1 fauna, 1 titania,
- out 1 crop, 1 fauna, in 2 titania.

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Originally Posted by samman1

I agree 100%, titania is very powerful in this list, in particular when played with chord during end of opponent's turn.
I don't know how to integrate it :
- out 1 crop, in 1 titania,
- out 1 fauna, 1 titania,
- out 1 crop, 1 fauna, in 2 titania.

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Yeah I think 3 Fauna is too much honestly, because most of the time you wanna fetch it with the Chord and surprise your oponent going off with vengevine or another creature-fetch based strategy. BUT I'm still on the fence wich 2 it's the best: 2 Fauna and 1 Titania or 2 Titania and 1 Fauna. Titania its a game changer and can turn the game around in your favor easily, but so does Fauna and Fauna can be more versatile and usefull in a aggro-control meta. It might get to that, might be a matter of meta. And on a personal note, I think 2 Fauna + 2 Titania might be too much or unecessary occupied slots.
That beeing said, I dont see the reason to take off the Crop, I mean, it helps so much and I dont think a Titania could replace this card because they're 2 quite diferent cards and it has a nice element of surprise like Chord. Some people see it as the weakest card in the maindeck, but it saved my ass sometimes already so Im sold..

Hi everybody, I would first like to thank everyone for helping evolve this deck as a whole over the past few years, and more recently i should say weeks.

Thanks to the new members of our forum for bringing some fresh ideas to the build. As we all know this is a powerful build and has some real potential, the more we work on it and tweek ideas and share thoughts the more this deck will evolve into a top tier strategy or atleast extremely powerful.

I have a much different approach to this build then what i have seen more recently, not taking anything away from anyone's build but i feel i have one of the faster versions of the deck. (I am interested in thoughts)

Sideboard strategy is key with this deck, i feel evolving the post board games will ultimately lead to the success of this deck, we can steal game 1 against alot of decks, but after the board, out builds are easy to hose.

SOOO here is my deck i have been using recently


4 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Visionary
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Dryad Arbor

1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Summoner's Pact
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Gaea's Cradle
7 Forest


I have had several versions of a side board, typically 4 Thorn of Amythst, 4 Leyline of Lifeforce, then targeted hate, Tormod's Crypt, Krosan Grip, scavaging Ooze

Right now I have decided to go HEAVY combo main board and morph into a more of a traditional or "classic" elf build, my SB looks like this:

4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Green Sun Zenith
1 Vexing Susher
1 Eternal Witness
1 Elvish Champion
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Eladamri, Lord or Leaves
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Krosan Grip

Typically i board out the birchlore rangers and Tendrils, as that is the most "Flimsy" part of my combo but can end up in some AWESOME wins, and tremendous speed as you can perform "MINI" combos.

Well i wanted to share my build and get some feedback, someone PLEASE try it, by god....its fast

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elvish Visionary

Hi everybody, I would first like to thank everyone for helping evolve this deck as a whole over the past few years, and more recently i should say weeks.

Thanks to the new members of our forum for bringing some fresh ideas to the build. As we all know this is a powerful build and has some real potential, the more we work on it and tweek ideas and share thoughts the more this deck will evolve into a top tier strategy or atleast extremely powerful.

I have a much different approach to this build then what i have seen more recently, not taking anything away from anyone's build but i feel i have one of the faster versions of the deck. (I am interested in thoughts)

Sideboard strategy is key with this deck, i feel evolving the post board games will ultimately lead to the success of this deck, we can steal game 1 against alot of decks, but after the board, out builds are easy to hose.

SOOO here is my deck i have been using recently


4 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Visionary
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Dryad Arbor

1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Summoner's Pact
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Gaea's Cradle
7 Forest


I have had several versions of a side board, typically 4 Thorn of Amythst, 4 Leyline of Lifeforce, then targeted hate, Tormod's Crypt, Krosan Grip, scavaging Ooze

Right now I have decided to go HEAVY combo main board and morph into a more of a traditional or "classic" elf build, my SB looks like this:

4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Green Sun Zenith
1 Vexing Susher
1 Eternal Witness
1 Elvish Champion
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Eladamri, Lord or Leaves
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Krosan Grip

Typically i board out the birchlore rangers and Tendrils, as that is the most "Flimsy" part of my combo but can end up in some AWESOME wins, and tremendous speed as you can perform "MINI" combos.

Well i wanted to share my build and get some feedback, someone PLEASE try it, by god....its fast

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I have some comments on your MD :
- your list can make turn 3 kill easily (if titania or archdruid are played turn 2),
- you've got 3 kills MD : emrakul, tendrils and joraga. Tendrils needs combo glimpse, and if you succeed in combo glimpse, you will be able to win with Emrakul. I don't think tendrils is a good choice. If you fetch joraga with GSZ, you need to bounce it with symbiot to cast it with +1/+1 counters.

SB :
You don't play anti-mass removal slot (caller of the claw, burrenton forge trender). Ezuri is not an answer to perish.
What is eternal witness for?
When do you side in GSZ?
You don't play gaddock teeg. With your tutors, it should be very useful,
Why playing vexing shusher? It is easy to force opponent to use its counter spells. One exception : CB/top. Are there many CB/top decks in your metagame?

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Originally Posted by samman1

What is your list, particularly the SB?

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Maindeck:
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Llanowar Elves
1 Priest of Titania
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Mirror Entity
1 Ezuri, renegade leader

1 Crop Rotation
3 Chord of Calling
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

1 Savannah
6 Fetchland
1 Gaea's Cradle
5 Forest


Sideboard:
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Burrenton Forge-tender
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Masticore
2 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical extraction
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Absolute Law


I tried to adapt the list to my meta-game which is very Combo and Aggro heavy with some Team America and Canadian (currently) always making top8. So I decided Vengevines to be too slow, and I brought in 4x of Elves instead for being more explosive and less recursive.
All I regret from the MD is not having more Gaea's Cradles. Unfortunately I just wasn't lucky drawing, and I made mulligans almost every game.
In my games and probably metagame, Entity alone or next to Ezuri look like enormous Aggro options by themselves, so maybe I'll just try to fit Vengevine in the side if there's room... Vines are easy to fit anyway, if need be, taking out 1 of each elf.

On the other hand I'm not too happy with the sideboard. Tormods should have definitely been Faerie + Extraction and singleton random Law should also be grave hate.

I'm overall very happy with the list, and maybe if I had had more Cradles Chords would have been a lot more useful, so I'll try to buy some soon.

Do you think the player' playstyle it's the most important factor to use a deck and be successful with it?

Im asking this because Ross and Samuel, 2 diferent players with 2 diferent elves deck with diferent win conditions, with 2 diferent playstyles, but with one thing in common, they're both very good elves players who placed pretty high in the GPs they attended this year. I would like to know your thoughts on this.

thanks guys

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Originally Posted by Godmode

Do you think the player' playstyle it's the most important factor to use a deck and be successful with it?

Im asking this because Ross and Samuel, 2 diferent players with 2 diferent elves deck with diferent win conditions, with 2 diferent playstyles, but with one thing in common, they're both very good elves players who placed pretty high in the GPs they attended this year. I would like to know your thoughts on this.

thanks guys

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What is Ross's list?

A decklist is of course very important but the play style is even more important.
I have two important points to focus on :
- I try to adapt my plays to opponent's rythm. If he plays fast, I try to follow him playing as fast as possible. If he plays slowly, I try to make card advantage then kill with backup. Killing as fast as possible is not my purpose (exception : against combo decks).
- I prepare all my SB tables before each tournament. Between 2 games, I try to concentrate, I don't spend much time to think about my sideboard changes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by samman1

What is Ross's list?

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Ross Merriam's list (alias: theross - it's the 6th post):

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...s-Combo/page90

After the GP he wrote a lot of insightful and helpful stuff wich you can find if you follow his comments including his report.

Hes a great guy, he posts here sometimes and allways tries to be helpful. I believe he was 1 win away from the Top8 at GP Providence early this year. At the very end of this page you can find a report of that Round 15:

Brian Eleyet (Hive Five) vs. Ross Merriam (Elves)

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...e/gppro11/day2



By the way if ur there Ross, how do you think your exact list from the GP Prov would do in this meta?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Godmode

Ross Merriam's list (alias: theross - it's the 6th post):

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...s-Combo/page90

After the GP he wrote a lot of insightful and helpful stuff wich you can find if you follow his comments including his report.

Hes a great guy, he posts here sometimes and allways tries to be helpful. I believe he was 1 win away from the Top8 at GP Providence early this year. At the very end of this page you can find a report of that Round 15:

Brian Eleyet (Hive Five) vs. Ross Merriam (Elves)

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...e/gppro11/day2

By the way if ur there Ross, how do you think your exact list from the GP Prov would do in this meta?

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This list is very interesting, its MD is dedicated to combo (glimpse or casting regal force).
It is true that it is very different from my version which MD is more aggro (fauna/VV) and control (chord of calling).
His SB is much more aggro (VV, buried alive) and control (4 cabal therapy) than mine.

Ross' deck its probably the most explosive elves version but not the most resilient (note: mental misstep just had bursted into the meta so obviously ross knew how to play around it). Although in game 2/3, siding in BA+VV makes all the diference, changes the playstyle, adds consistency and its quite easy to get those 3 VV in the Gy, I guess that is what makes the deck so powerful - its brutal plan B sideboard. Realistically, in your 3rd round you could easily have the vengevine army hitting the board and when that happens, its game over.

This is my current list, I'd like some (constructive) criticism of it:

Creatures
4x Birchlore Rangers
3x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Wirewood Symbiote
3x Elvish Archdruid
1x Priest of Titania
1x Joraga Warcaller
1x Regal Force

Combo
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Summoner's Pact
4x Glimpse of Nature

Mana
1x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Misty Rainforest
7x Forest


I am seriously considering the Vengevine/Buried Alive sideboard plan. I have some Overgrown Tombs I could put into my lands. While it's no Bayou, it does the trick considering my budget.

My biggest questions/concerns are these:

1) Will the lack of Green Sun's Zenith be too detrimental to the deck's success?

2) Is Fauna Shaman any good in an elves setup? I know she is slow, but she provides mana (with Birchlore/Heritage) and can tutor up key pieces (multiple Sentinels, Regal Force, and Emrakul by pitching an unneeded Llanowar/Birchlore/random elf)

I have 3 Shamans...I have zero GSZ's. I don't think it would be hard to get a hold of the 3 GSZ's I would need though, they only go for around $8 a piece.

Thanks in advance for the feedback!

EDIT: Decklist was messed up...had 7 Visionary's and no Archdruids.

@Mr. Safety

Green Sun's Zenith and Gaea's Cradle are the top level, they're truly game changers. If you play in a daily basis or casual I would definitely get those because it makes the deck so much fun, but if you're playing 2 or 3 times a month with your buddy and ur low on money its not that big of a deal I guess. Just test them online and see the difference..

On a personal note, as for Emrakul vs Mirror, I dont know. As you can see, you can play a more combo based elves and play with Emrakul wich is game over when it hits the table, but so is Mirror and Mirror can be more versatile (infinite mana/untaps/storm) and with Mirror you can probably play a more control oriented playstyle.
I suggest you to take a look at page 108 (posted by me, its not the first list its the sencond wich says Grand Prix - Amsterdam) and see the list of Samuel Poulain (samman1) who made 13rd place in the GP Amsterdam (1800ish players) and take a look at page 90 and see Ross' list (theross) who was 1 win away from top8 in GP Providence. Take a look of those 2 lists and read the coments from Samuel and Ross, youll get some insightful information.

Take a look at this if you wanna know Mirror Entity's tweeks and play it to its maximum potential - post by Ellistann: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post476046

On fauna, I think it doesnt make much sense if you're not playing vengevines along with them and on Joraga Warcaller seems to be an overkill or unnecessary.

Go read Ross' and Samuel's report and posts on the pages I told u.. you will get a fresh prespective on elves playstyles.

@ Mr Safety; Your list has 7 visionary. But I can't see what you are missing (except GSZ). Maybe you could try to fit Elvish Archdruid in the remaining 3 slots. It makes you a bit faster and better in the case you have to go medieval on their ***.

@Mr safety :
Your deck strategy is close to Ross's : MD dedicated to combo and BA/vengevine in SB for an aggro plan in G2 and G3.
I have a comment : you play 1 titania and your only tutors are pact. If you need titania, fetching it with pact is not often a good solution, especially if titania is countered or destroyed. GSZ is much more efficient if you want to use titania.

Ross uses 4 cradle and 4 GSZ (if he wants to fetch Titania) to boost its manabase. You don't have the equivalent in your deck.
I think GSZ is almost compulsory in elfball decks because it is useful everytime, when you need to defend (symbiot), prepare combo (heritage, nettle), making CA with symbiot (visio) or put regal force on the battlefield.

I think this was addressed a while ago (briefly perhaps) but what about Genesis Wave?
I play on a more "casual" level with this deck and I have 2 or 3 G Waves and Crossroads. Is the card too much of a liability at a more competitive level?

Genesis wave is a "win-more" card. On a competitive level, you don't want cards that are rather useless until it is time to combo out.

It's late right now, so I'll do it tomorrow afternoon, but I played in a 36 player 6 round tournament with my elf list from pages back.

I have most of it written down and I remember the matches that I don't have down, so I'll repost my list and go through the games. I placed 13th (almost made top 8, had I won my game I would have been in)

To make a long story short, elves fell short where standard elf combo lists fall short. Without some sort of splash / means to go infinite or some back up plan that isn't actually elves, the generic combo concept is extremely easily disrupted by the more powerful mid-range control decks of legacy these days.

P.S. Snapcaster mage can go fucking die.

@Godmode:

On the importance of playstyle: I don't think the success of elves in these two instances is primarily due to playstyle, but rather two people finding elves at a time when it's very good against the prevailing metagame. I was worried initially after MMs banning that many would flock back to faster combo decks, and they did. However, Snapcaster Mage decks have now flooded the metagame with enough combo hate to keep them down, much in the same way MM did before Providence. Elves has enough tempo from the plethora of cheap drops to handle MM (I played through, rather than around this card in Providence which the deck is quite capable of doing, especially since very few of my opponents didn't know the matchup) and Snapcaster Mage and thus it was more important that other combo decks were pushed out of the metagame. Obviously the two lists are very different and that reflects our two playstyles to some extent, but the core cards in each deck are unchanged, and it is that core that wins most games.

On how my list from Providence would perform now: Right now I think Samuel's list is better since it favors the Vengevine plan. These new RUG decks, especially those with Counterbalance should be difficult to combo against so the added resiliency the VV plan gives in the MD is advantageous. I still think my list will perform well for the next few weeks, but as CB comes back stronger (which I believe it will) I think a shift towards VVs main will become necessary. I think I would move towards a Gw build with Mirror Entity (Emrakul as a dead draw is awful when you are grinding them with Vengevines) and a Qasali Pridemage main to deal with CB. Although I did like Intuition when playing with VVs main, so perhaps that is better. I definitely dislike having 4 Fauna Shamans main, as I found that card to be far too slow even for the aggro plan. I would only play 1 as a tutor target if I knew I was safe to start chaining VVs.


@Samman1: I'm glad you were able to immediately recognize that my deck was meant to be on a streamlined combo plan, which was my intention. I have tried lists with MD VV and as noted above, used Intuition in those builds to some success. I found it interesting that your only losses were to other combo decks. In Providence, I was 2-2 against Combo (1-1 against Hive Mind, 0-1 against Sneaky Show, 1-0 against ANT) and 8-1 against everything else (0-1 against PV with BUGStill, where a misplay on my part turned a draw into a loss game 3 after I bricked on creatures game 2 for 6 turns with 3 VVs in the graveyard) I'm becoming so disillusioned in the combo matchups that I think it may be higher EV to just ignore them.