By the way, this recently celebrated its one-year anniversary. Hooray!
-Matt
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By the way, this recently celebrated its one-year anniversary. Hooray!
-Matt
8 Tarmogoyf? Wow, you are, indeed, a "Bouse." :DQuote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Overall the list is quite agreeable with me. I've been hop-scotching between GSZ and SFM builds trying to find that ideal match that would put me ahead and ultimately each build has had weaknesses that proved too costly for my meta. I've been considering returning to a more classic build, and I think the one you posted is a good start.
I like that you are using that 1-of Sylvan Library. While I've always been reluctant to let go of the ability of Top to dig for an answer many times I find myself mana-shy and essentially sacrificing mana in the hopes I'll be able to dig for more mana. Library seems like a good replacement for at least 1 Top. The REB/Grudge definitely are nice, affordable answers (which yes, we have Vindicate, but I don't always want to spend an entire turn trying to get rid of 1 threat).
2 Mox? Since you're running a 4th color, however light a splash, wouldn't you want at least 3 to assure that losing your only red source doesn't rob you of the ability to cast Red spells? I assume the reasoning is that because your're running 3 Planeswalkers and as such are returning Rock to the more mid-late game that you're worried about drawing dead Moxes. Am I correct?
I'm not overly fond of Bog however I assume this is based more towards your meta.
Ultimately, I agree with your build as the Red is an insanely light splash that provides us with some cheap, generic answers.
Forlorn Egoist
It's supposed to be 4 Knight. Whoops :P
The Library has been insane. Absolutely the tits. It doesn't replace Top, but it's a nice addition to the card drawing array of Confidant and Top. I'd definitely play at least 1. In many matchups (non-tempo matchups, since it gets Spell Snared like a sucker) it's great, since the life loss isn't as crucial.
Regarding the 3rd Mox, I don't have the room, and the dead draw issue.
-Matt
What sideboard picks have people been having success with lately vs. RUG Tempo? I like Choke for the random Landstill matchups but it seems too slow vs. Tempo.
Pernicious Deed? What else?
Path to Exile is pretty much the nut-high. Fetch that, ya bastards.
-Matt
I've been going:
-4 Thoughtseize
-1 Top
+3 Dismember
+1 Jitte
+1 Library
... on the draw. I figure that I don't need to worry about counters post board. I just need to but time. The Library/Top switch is to keep mana up. Sometimes, you need to dig a little to find removal or a win condition.
On the draw I'm going:
-4 Thoughtsieze
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Jitte
+3 Dismember
+2 Choke
The Pulses are being pulled because on the play I shouldn't need as much removal and have the advantage of an early Choke. They can't afford to keep their counters in. And if they do the boarding options change. I don't really ever grab force against them and as a result, for a Thoughtsezie to really be a discard 3 if it resolves. Baiting force isn't that difficult when they can't do anything else to stop a threat.
If they keep Force, play and draw are the same. Choke's become less relevant as they have counter magic that you really don't want to spend time baiting to Choke. Most of the time, you'll have to deal with a quick threat anyway. It's not like before where you had a couple turns before they got to Threshold for Mongoose.
-3 Pulse
-1 Batterskull
+3 Dismember
+1 Jitte
Again, Pulse isn't the greatest when you're aiming at their speedy creatures. I have had one instance of Goyf being a 5/6 when I had a dismember and I didn't win that match. It wasn't because they had the goyf though. They had Stifle, Snapcaster, Bolt and 5 lands to Stop the Liliana and maze, then kill me.
I'm still tweaking my boarding options but this has been pretty useful to me. I'm also not fetching the Skull in most games, unless I have the other pieces of equipment. The SFM has too much of an target to last a turn (typically) and I'd rather force them to deal with every creature being a threat (Jitte) or removal (SoFI).
Jitte is the biggest thing in this match. Being able to have every creature be able to either swing into or kill everything they play is huge.
I keep the Lili's in as the deck is already very vulnerable to Stifle. Knight Triggers, Fetches, SGM, Equip, etc, etc. Her plus ability is very useful against the deck because you're getting them to topdeck mode faster, one way or another. Their deck has a lot of filter but, it doesn't matter when you're spending you're entire turn doing it to discard. 18 lands sucks when you're being forced to use it to filter instead of playing threats. Also, Every land play on their end essentially shrinks their hand by 1.
Has anyone tried running a hexmage/dark depths list with KotR and Living Wish lately?
With all the Wasteland/Stifle/Spell Snares around this seems as dumb as it gets.Quote:
Originally Posted by JadeOberg
I get that, just wondering if someone has dedicated any time in to testing a list before I attempt to. Besides, not so much Canadian in my meta...Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
I think it was discussed several pages backQuote:
Originally Posted by JadeOberg
It's not very good at the moment, and most people haven't had success with it.
-Matt
Just checking in to wish you gents a Merry Christmas!
-Matt
same to you matt, and of course to everyone else too
merry christmas
btw. so you got something to think about during the holydays, i am right now testing a more traditional build with Moxen LftL and Liliana
24 lands
4 mox diamond
4 bob
4 goyf
4 knight
4 stop
3 vindicate
1 LftL
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 hymn
4 thoughtseize
3 divining top
liliana is a blast, when i first saw her i though she's nice but not extremely good, but my testings changed my mind completely, with confidant or loam active her first ability is pain in the a**, and her second ability breaks symmetry like a champ. Her last ability rarely sees play, but if that should happen it is allmost like an "I-win-button"
in this list i am thinking of replacing the stronghold with nantuko monastery or treetop village to up a bit the threatcount
which one would you use?
again happy holydays and merry christmas
AggroSteve, I'd cut 1 Mox Diamond for another piece of removal or discard, or possibly a Sylvan Library.
@ Everyone
Hope you all had a great Christmas! Anyone get any nice Magic stuff for Christmas?
---
So, I was looking through my box of stuff today and I'm doing a bit of thinking for my next article for "Talking Shop." I want to talk about the Rock in Legacy, and why playing BWG/BGR is good in Legacy.
I think what we need to be looking at is the format from the ground up, at this very moment. What are the good decks, and what cards do we need to fight them, no matter the colour? Right now we know RUG Tempo, Reanimator, Maverick, and and UW Stoneblade are the Tier 1 decks in the format, so I think we need to focus on at least doing very well against 2 of these, and doing decently well against at least one other.
We need to look at the basic cards they hate to see, how we grind advantage without playing Blue, and what makes us better than them.
Taking each deck at a time, I'm going to try and show why it's good in the format, and what it hates to see. I think if we take the common denominators out of all the decks, we can find a happy medium that does well against many decks (which is one of the old hallmarks of a true Rock deck).
Reanimator:
Why are you so good?
Ball-busting, back-breaking plays that can be made by Turn 2. The game can actually end on Turn 3 by returning Jin-Gitaxis, Core Auger or Iona, Shield of Emeria. Most decks can't deal with either, especially when Reanimation is backed by Countermagic or disruption. Iona shuts out your primary removal colour, so having removal in an alternate colour is a near necessity to beating Iona.
What do you hate to see?
Graveyard hate, but can be played against using Show and Tell, but their job becomes harder. Karakas takes out most of their guys, and is a tutorable card using Knight of the Reliquary. Extirpate shuts off their countermagic and removes multiple copies of back-breaking fatties, like Jin-Gitaxis. Heavy Countermagic is also a weakness to Reanimator, but isn't terribly relevant assuming we want to be in BWG. Targeted discard spells slow down Reanimator by taking away discard spells or reanimation spells. It doesn't break a topdeck, but it can slow them down enough for you to have mana up or find another piece of hate.
The key here is turn off their ability to get creatures in the bin, and to have a clock and the ability to deal with a landed bomb. If you can deal with a Jin or Iona, you're fine.
Cards of use: Thoughtseize (and other 1 CMC discard), Extirpate (Surgical isn't as good here, since they can just Entomb again), Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Scavenging Ooze, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Ghastly Demise, Tariff, Deathmark, Retribution of the Meek, Vindicate.
UW Stoneblade:
Why are you so good?
Stoneblade has so much value in every card they play. They have a heavy countermagic suite to counter relevant spells, a rock-solid manabase full of basic lands, and 8 pieces of targeted removal after boarding, along with 4 Snapcaster and 2 Wrath of God. They carry a heavy arsenal of up to 5 game-changing planeswalkers that directly affect the board and must be dealt with immediately, or affect how you can answer them in the future. They have the ability to easily win the attrition war through Planeswalkers or Equipment, which usually outmatches creatures you can put on your side.
What do you hate to see?
Stoneblade relies on heavy amounts of removal and countermagic, so denying them this is good. Targeted Discard can help pluck Planeswalkers or Stoneforge or Equipment before they hit the table, allowing you to get better use of your removal. Active Library Manipulation helps counteract an active Jace, and helps put you on par with their ability to Brainstorm. Uncounterability can be a huge swing in this matchup, since cards like Krosan Grip and Thrun turn off the core of their deck: removal and countermagic. If you can turn off the SFM aspect of their game, all they are left with is the Planeswalker avenue, which can be answered with heavy creature combat.
The key here is to kill an inactive SFM before it can drop Equipment, to destroy said Equipment, and to keep Jace off the board.
Cards of use: Swords to Plowshares (taking out inactive SFM), Path (not the greatest since they have tons of basics), Ghastly Demise, Vindicate (kill Jace + Equipment), Thoughtseize (pluck Jace, SFM, Equipment, etc), Hymn To tourach (all their cards are pure value, take any and all if you can), Thrun (turn off their removal and counters), Sword of Light and Shadow (turn off their removal and gain pro: Germ), Top and Sylvan (to get ahead on cards), Dark Confidant (to help counteract the fact you'll have to truck through several counterspells, plus it is a removal magnet).
RUG Tempo
Why are you so good?
RUG Tempo has an excellent mana denial package (Wasteland and Stifle) combined with cheap and efficient countermagic (Force, Daze, Spell Snare) than can be run off of minimal mana and is effective with mana denial. It has cheap threats, than when backed with light countermagic and minimal mana of the opponent, go the distance. Red gives Tempo huge reach and game against Planeswalkers and SFM, and gives them access to REB from the board (one of the most important considerations in this meta as of late).
What don't you like to see?
RUg Tempo doesn't plat the attrition game well. 1 CMC Removal is a beating against them if there's no Mental Misstep to help them out. 8-10 pieces of removal is too much for them to handle. Large creatures or Equipment trump their small and efficient threats, and their low removal density means they can't handle a large Knight or Tarmogoyf very well. Basic Lands are important in surviving the Stifle/Wasteland onslaught and are key to keeping you in-colour and on-removal. They don't play any basic lands, so Path to Exile is so one-sided it isn't even funny.
If you can survive the initial battering and deal with their creatures, you get to out value all of their threats, and outclass most of their cards. When they have to start doing 2 and 3-for-1's to get any value, you've won.
Cards of use: 1 CMC Removal (Path, Swords, Ghastly), Thoughtseize (taking Snapcasters, Bolts, Grips, etc.), Pernicious Deed (easy to sweep a board of 0 and 1 drops), Engineered Explosives, Liliana of the Veil (discard and repeat sacrifice is good), Knight of the Reliquary (bigger than anything they have), Tarmogoyf (bigger than most things they have), Thrun (bigger than most things, doesn't get mucked by removal).
GW Maverick
Why are you so good?
An insane threat density backed with a repeatable tutor is nothing to sneeze at. Maverick is able to power up to a ton of mana and fetch whatever they need. They win at creature combat because they have access to SFM and Knight, since both outmatch most creatures out their. Maverick can run SFM well for a non-blue deck since they can recover easily from a mucked SFM, or can do something else on subsequent turns and still have mana to do SFM tricks, which is key. Knight gives them access to Karakas, Bog, Maze, etc. and is by far their biggest threat. Both Rangers, Scryb and Quirion, allow multiple uses of Knight and more importantly Mother of Runes, which makes getting removal on board near impossible. This deck punishes non-Combo Blue by making Force of Will a bad card, since they have so many threats, going down 2 to counter 1 spells your demise.
What don't you like to see?
Hand disruption can get rid of GSZ or a Mother of Runes, saving precious removal for later in the game. Equipment destruction puts their creatures on an almost level playing field as other creatures. Mass or targeted removal can wipe out all of their advantage in numbers or specialty creatures, like Ooze.
If you can leverage advantage against their GSZ Engine, or have answers to their creatures and Equipment, you're usually fine. This means you need to draw more cards, have more removal, and have more answers.
Cards to use: Perish, Virtue's Ruin, Pernicious Deed, Massacre, Path, Swords, Deathmark, Knight of the Reliquary (with Bog, Maze, etc.), Dark Confidant (Sylvan, Top, etc.), Thoughtseize, Vindicate, Krosan Grip, Liliana of the Veil, Thrun (they bring in 3 Paths from the board), Gaddock Teeg (shutting down GSZ).
-----------------------------------
So, what does this really leave us with? Well, it looks like we're back where we started: we want to run a deck using Dark Confidant, Knight of the Reliquary, Thoughtseize, Swords to Plowshares, Krosan Grip, Vindicate, additional 1 CMC removal, Extirpate, Bojuka Bog/Karakas/Maze of Ith, and perhaps Thrun, Teeg, Deed, etc.
You need to have hand disruption, 4-10 pieces of targeted removal, 1-3 pieces of mass removal, 1-3 Krosan Grip,1-4 Vindicate, Karakas, Knight of the Reliquary, Dark Confidant, and with some certainty, not SFM. Why? We can't invest that heavily in SFM on turn 2 and attempt to ride it out from turns 2-4 in a format full of Stifle, Bolt, Swords, which we can't do anything about. We don't have the mana development (Maverick has Cradle, Hierarchs) to be able to develop SFM and play other cards during those turns, or to protect it with the same amount of Force as Stoneblade can with 15+ counterspells.
So, that's what I've got to say at the moment. This may really work into my article, but I want to build a list from the ground up, using this data.
But, my main point for posting: We need additional 1 CMC removal, so why not use something that hoses most of the relevant matchups. I think right now, Deathmark is well positioned. Even at sorcery speed, it allows you to get rid of a SFM without getting Spell Snared and doesn't accelerate Stoneblade like Path does. It's off colour removal against Renanimator that kills Iona and doesn't require cards in the graveyard like Ghastly Demise does, and doesn't easily put you in Daze range like Diabolic Edict does. It hits Angel of Despair and Sphinx, but doesn't hit Jin, true. It shits on Maverick like a fucking champ, and takes out Tarmogoyfs in RUG Tempo. Plus, we can always board Path as removal 7 and 8 for those corner case situations at the moment where Deathmark doesn't cut it. This would be a snap-call if Deathmark was an instant, but it isn't. So, as an additional piece of removal to 4 Swords in the main, how do you all feel about 2-of Deathmark in the main? It's off colour to deal with Iona, and it mucks SFM.
Thoughts?
-Matt
as additional (to swords to plowshares) removal maindeck i am using 3 vindicates and 2 liliana of the veil right now
but i thought for the sideboard we could use 2 paths and maybe 2 darkblasts (darkblast actually is awesome against maverick, taking out arbor, hierarch, mother, and all the other X/1 in the meta right now), but deathmark is truly a nice thing, specially with the decks to beat right now, it has application in every matchup, with reanimator being the only one that is a bit mediocre
actually jitte would be a nice card as it would count as additional removal, but is not perfectly used since our threat-density is a bit low, but in a list without mox and maybe in these 4 slots 2 jitte and 2 quasali or something would work fine too
basically my sideboard would look like this
3 deed
3 extirpate
2 path to exile
2 deathmark / darkblast
2 thrunn
3 flexible slots (diabolic edict, krosan grip, inquisition of kozilek, duress, gaddock teeg, life from the loam.... so much is possible here)
my list is allmost the same as i posted previously, with the only exception of adding a second horizon canopy and in place of volrath's stronghold a nantuko monastery, which is surprisingly awesome, but could also be replaced with treetop village if you would not want to depend on your grave to much
@ sdmatt: i have to agree on your opinion on SFM in this deck, it really is not worth the effort, i would also say GSZ is not optimal in the rock, since we have not the same options as other decks abusing it
only thing i have to disagree is the 4th mox diamond in my list, with liliana maindeck, the 4th mox does not disturb at all and will most likely be discarded with liliana, i only wish i had place for another loam (allready running 61 cards)
i will at least try 3 mox and 2 loams, but right now the 4th mox has been fine for me
@aggroSteve:
Just want to say that, about the jitte being used as removal, I used to play with 3 bitterblossom and 2 jittes MD, and it worked very well as reusable removal and board presence (and many times as an alternative wincon). Must say that fareies attacked and chumpblocked like a champ, and carried jitte vey well.
@sdematt
Agree with the idea of SFM being not worth the slot. Too mana-intensive, and it took your first precious turns to set up just to get blown. Not sure about GSZ package.
@comandantenorton83
nice pointing out bitterblossom, it's an awesome card and i absolutely hate it to have it against me, it gives you an outstanding boardposition, and coupled with epuipment its a blowout, the only downside to it is that deed and bitterblossom do not like each other that much, and if i have to choose between deed and bitterblossom i will allways go with deed, obviously that should not hinder anyone to use both in their deck
about the GSZ package, you have to try it to understand well enough how it works, in the right meta this can really be strong, but in a unknown meta it is not that strong IMO, specially since you need much more green mana, and that way hymn becomes less reliable, and if you still want to run hymn your manabase gets a bit shaky and in a meta full of stifle and wasteland thats not the optimal choice;
this is my expierience with it, and may of course differ from other people expierience
Based on comandantenorton83 comments i build this list, do you think it have any chance of sucess?
Cya guys.
// Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bitterblossom
3 Mox Diamond
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Excellent assessment, Matt. As another option for 1cc removal, there's Vendetta. It's instant-speed, hits Jin, can hit Iona if they cut you off white, plays well with Bob and isn't dependent on the graveyard. It can also hit artifact creatures, so you can snipe a Sphinx or a Painter's Servant if you need to.
Happy New Year!
Thanks for the comments, all.
I'm also leaning towards dropping Hymn (gasp!). Why? Well, it's pretty miserable against Reanimator, I've had it Spell Snared so much against Stoneblade and Tempo, and sometimes you don't hit the cards you want.
Now, don't me wrong, the randomness can be AWESOME, as we've all seen. But, I'm wondering for the sake of the manabase (and to not be obligated to get BB on turn 2 somehow) and for improving our Stoneblade and Reanimator matchup, why not go with 8x 1 CMC discard, just like our removal package?
It gives us flexibility in the fact we still have game (I don't want to drop discard for sure) against the format via interaction by discard. It allows us to pinpoint what we want to take and take it. I was playing tons of test games against Stoneblade and Hymn was somewhat miserable when they had an equipment in hand and I couldn't grab it for sure, and my discard was open to shenanigans via Spell Snare. This give us more ways to grab Jace for sure as well. I will agree you don't get card quantity here, just quality (I mean, you get to choose).
I mean, try it or don't, but I'm just brainstorming here. Even against Maverick, sometimes you'd rather take the one card you want instead of two of the garbage you don't. I was thinking of splitting 3 Thoughtseize 3 Inquisition 2 Duress. It gives us 5 answers to Jace and anything over 3 CMC that's a non-creature, 6 answers to a creature 3 or less (all the relevant ones you'd want them to discard), 8 answers to noncreatures costing less than 3 (as in, most of the relevant equipment minus BS), etc.
Thoughts?
@ Novatinhu
You always have a chance for success!
Why the Bitterblossom? Want to explain this choice to us?Quote:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bitterblossom
3 Mox Diamond
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
-Matt