Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
I'm not convinced that Solidarity can find 2+ disruption fast enough to beat TES or even control the stack against something like FT or iPop Negation.
Yet it does. Take a look at the number of cantrips in this deck. It's definately not a big problem for this deck to find Fow. Beside that, Solidarity puts the TES player on a very quick clock. Playing Spell Snares, Remand and FoW, you definately have a fair chance against TES.
Fetchland Tendrills is a much different story. They're slower, but have more Chants. FT is barely faster than Solidarity, and I noticed I can often win by playing a single Brain Freeze to mill away my opponent's key cards, so he can't find them anymore with Infernal Tutor. The Doomsday versoin is even slower, and gives you the opportunity to win every time it plays an unprotected Doomsday (which will not be often, I know).
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
Yet it does. Take a look at the number of cantrips in this deck. It's definately not a big problem for this deck to find Fow. Beside that, Solidarity puts the TES player on a very quick clock. Playing Spell Snares, Remand and FoW, you definately have a fair chance against TES.
Fetchland Tendrills is a much different story. They're slower, but have more Chants. FT is barely faster than Solidarity, and I noticed I can often win by playing a single Brain Freeze to mill away my opponent's key cards, so he can't find them anymore with Infernal Tutor. The Doomsday versoin is even slower, and gives you the opportunity to win every time it plays an unprotected Doomsday (which will not be often, I know).
TES plays 8 cantrips 1cc cantrips compared to 8 1cc cantrips with Solidarity. Solidarity only plays an additional 4 Cantrips (at the 2cc slot) and the additional cantrips at the 1cc cantrips in the form of Peek/Opt slot don't make up for the mana cost or power level disparity between themselves and Ponder. TES plays 4 Chants preboard (the same number as FT, although without access to Mystical Tutor) as well as boarding either Thoughtseize, Pyroblast, or Xantid Swarm. The matchup seems to really favor TES here.
The non-doomsday version of FT is a turn and a half to two turns faster than Solidarity on average. It packs 4 Orim's Chants and 4 Mystical Tutors to find them preboard with 12 cantrips (the same as Solidarity). Additionally, the Solidarity nightmare play of turn 1-2 IGG (without the finishing Tendrils loop) is available to require a Force of Will or the Solidarity player's handsize is cut down to an unworkable level. This deck will bring in Abeyances and Extirpates (roughly the same disruption as the slower Doomsday deck) and won't lose much speed for it at all.
The Doomsday deck is actually a really interesting match. Controlling the stack is difficult because Solidarity's control cards are split between not losing to an offensive attack from Tendrils and not losing to a defensive attack with Orim's Chant/Abeyance. The same strategy for Doomsday that is so devastatingly effective in the Tendrils mirror of using superior card quality from Ponder/Top/Mystical Tutor to bring Orim's Chant/Abeyance, Thoughtseize, and Extirpate to bear wrecks havoc here as well as Solidarity can rarely afford to attempt to combo only to mana burn from a Reset or Turnabout caused by Extirpate/Thoughtseize protected Chants and Abeyances. (Tendrils is the control deck here and will wait to win until after it has established control of the game).
When I play this match with the Doomsday FT variant and Solidarity w/Spell Snare, the majority of the matches come down to topdecking with a very slight edge to FT almost entirely due to Extirpate on Force of Will rending most of Solidarity's defensive measures void (assuming the FT is competent enough to cast Chant on their own upkeep afterwards). This is a stark comparison to the general blowouts that are dealt to Solidarity by TES on the back of quick Chants/Swarms (resolved or not) followed by a combo attempt.
The major limiting factor here is that fast combo decks that aren't belcher form a total of roughly 5% of any given field. The other storm decks aren't what's keeping Solidarity down (although a metagame filled with TES, FT, or SI would be a horrible place to take Solidarity). The underlying issue is ubiquity of blue-based aggro-control strategies and heavy-discard green/black aggro-control strategies. These matchups, traditionally unfavorable for the best Solidarity pilots, can make up 50% of more a metagame that still includes heavy representations of Chalice of the Void. The traditional prey of Solidarity, slow control decks like Landstill and Rifter and defenseless aggro decks like Goblins have either fallen out of favor or adapted enough that the auto-win scenario isn't quite as automatic leading past 2-0s to close 2-1s or 1-2s.
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
So essentially the sum of many decks evolving and just the metagame evolving to a more "healthy state" pushed the deck out? About Goyf I meant it gave Threshold a faster clock, threshold is one of the problems right?
It seems that many people here believe the deck can do very well yet I have not seen any evidence of it being done and have talked to an avid Solidarity player who gave up the deck and I just do not understand completely why this deck could be making some kind of come back.
Or is it just that the deck is so skill intensive that the good players are just not playing it?
And if they are not playing it does that not mean there is something better?
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
darkalucard
Or is it just that the deck is so skill intensive that the good players are just not playing it?
And if they are not playing it does that not mean there is something better?
As you said, it actually is extremely skill intensive. In golden days of solidarity people just weren't playing it in masses because it is either too difficult or thay didn't own Resets.
Solidarity as a deck needs a skilled pilot. It doesn't reward you if you just netdeck a new deck for every tournament and try to win more with your deck than your play skills. You just fizzle and the opponent thanks you.
Solidarity is raising again, thanks to eager, dedicated players who are willing to develop it to get a grip of the present meta. As people find more reliable and efficient ways to deal with all the counterbalances, expect to see solidarity in future top8's more often. Not even stax with all their lock pieces can stop the deck in it's old form, it is that good.
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hopo
As you said, it actually is extremely skill intensive. In golden days of solidarity people just weren't playing it in masses because it is either too difficult or thay didn't own Resets.
Solidarity as a deck needs a skilled pilot. It doesn't reward you if you just netdeck a new deck for every tournament and try to win more with your deck than your play skills. You just fizzle and the opponent thanks you.
Solidarity is raising again, thanks to eager, dedicated players who are willing to develop it to get a grip of the present meta. As people find more reliable and efficient ways to deal with all the counterbalances, expect to see solidarity in future top8's more often. Not even stax with all their lock pieces can stop the deck in it's old form, it is that good.
That is true, I hope. I'm convinced we can strenghten our weaker matchups by developing this deck further. I've been playing Solidarity quite a while now, and while it isn't as strong as it was, It's certainly an established tier 2 deck that can compete with the rest of the field.
Emidln, you are right. I don't mean to say that TES or FT are favoured for Solidarity, but many people are saying Solidarity became obsolete because of the rise of fast storm combo, which isn't such a bad matchup. My results against TES, which is a matchup I've played a rediculous amout of times against a very competent player (who wins every goddamn tournament he plays in....) aren't too bad at all. I'd say 40/60 in favour of TES is a good estimate. You can definately win this match.
FT I haven't tested enough, but I think the results will be kind of like those from TES. It seems you have more experience with it, Emidln, so could you maybe describe how a Solidarity player should play against FT? It should be very helpful for the primer.
I fouund Belcher to be the easiest matchup in the storm combo section by the way. With Truths sideboard and plenty of ways to find FoW, I'd say the matchup is favourable.
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Hi The deck I play is the one with 2 snares main, and wipe aways and truths from side, I think it s the best for the current meta and I say that the only bad match ups I find difficult to win are: Tres and now, the phyrexian dreadnoth variants, I win the rest of match ups easyly( ichorid, teps, deadguy ale, etc etc)
well I'd like to know how to side vs those tres in order to improve this match up please boys tell me how do you do I thouth in so many things... (yeah meekstone was my idea and dryad...) orims or bound/determined or abeyance you boys say that are some kind of help.
I really find the snares-wipe away package enough to handle the c.b trouble.
wipeaway and truth as well help vs those angry dreadnouths and possible mages.
Maybe Meloku could be a good option vs tres or telekinesis, vedalken shackless..? Im desperating Ive tryed sooo many things to improve the tres mautch up.... I'd be a Pro if i won tres match ups¡¡ please help help¡¡
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Hi The deck I play is the one with 2 snares main, and wipe aways and truths from side, I think it s the best for the current meta and I say that the only bad match ups I find difficult to win are: Tres and now, the phyrexian dreadnoth variants, I win the rest of match ups easyly( ichorid, teps, deadguy ale, etc etc)
well I'd like to know how to side vs those tres in order to improve this match up please boys tell me how do you do I thouth in so many things... (yeah meekstone was my idea and dryad...) orims or bound/determined or abeyance you boys say that are some kind of help.
I really find the snares-wipe away package enough to handle the c.b trouble.
wipeaway and truth as well help vs those angry dreadnouths and possible mages.
Maybe Meloku could be a good option vs tres or telekinesis, vedalken shackless..? Im desperating Ive tryed sooo many things to improve the tres mautch up.... I'd be a Pro if i won tres match ups¡¡ please help help¡¡
Dude, I've said this several times, but you don't seem to listen. I find it hard to take you serious if you don't type in proper English. It's a pain to read through that text.
Dryad and Meekstone had all been suggested earlier and have been dismissed. You should read trough this thread first.
Telekinesis and Meloku both suck. Shackles might not suck, but still sucks too much to play. It cripples your combo way to much and costs too much mana to reliably play around Daze. I wouldn't play it.
As for sideboarding against Thresh, as I also said before, find it out your self. The strategy you find working the best depends completely on your playstyle. I suggest taking out some Remands and Wishes (assuming you board Wipe Away in). Try the rest out yourself.
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
darkalucard
It seems that many people here believe the deck can do very well yet I have not seen any evidence of it being done and have talked to an avid Solidarity player who gave up the deck and I just do not understand completely why this deck could be making some kind of come back.
Or is it just that the deck is so skill intensive that the good players are just not playing it?
And if they are not playing it does that not mean there is something better?
Decks post results as the sum of how often their played. Solidarity never made top 8 with high frequency due in large part to the fact that it only had a few dedicated pilots. Solidarity showed up once to Threshold or Goblins' 10 times during its busiest days. And except for a very brief span it was almost unheard of to see more than one or two copies of Solidarity in a huge tournament. Nowadays, Solidarity doesn't post results because people don't play it.
The thing about Solidarity is that it appeals to a very small base of player. It's intricate, highly complicated, takes months of dedication to play well and more still to master, and unlike a brief span it enjoyed back in the day, it's not considered to be in the very top echelon of decks. Also, it's not new and shiny. It hasn't changed hardly at all in several blocks.
Therefore you have to find someone who has the skill and dedication enough to enjoy playing a complicated, intricate deck, yet not the "Play the best deck or play the second best that beats the best deck" attitude commonly found in experts. And someone who can pick up a deck that isn't new and shiny. Therefore it's not surprising that most of the people playing Solidarity are the people who have been playing it for a long time.
Solidarity isn't the best deck and it loses to the best deck. But it beats a shitload of others. And in the right hands it'll see you to your fair share of top eights. Just most people want the newer, shinier decks, and Solidarity hasn't changed at all in several sets.
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
The strategy you find working the best depends completely on your playstyle. I suggest taking out some Remands and Wishes (assuming you board Wipe Away in). Try the rest out yourself.
Well I have to say that a player do not have a different playstyle than other
this point is incorrect: A player plays better or worse than other therefore there will be a correct or an incorrect way to side I mean if your way of siding can be better or worse than mine. And I ask the people to tell me how they side vs tres decks. because my playstile is based on statistics and maths I mean I have no playstile.
Another point I do not have the proficiency grade of english im not English
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Well I have to say that a player do not have a different playstyle than other
this point is incorrect: A player plays better or worse than other therefore there will be a correct or an incorrect way to side I mean if your way of siding can be better or worse than mine. And I ask the people to tell me how they side vs tres decks. because my playstile is based on statistics and maths I mean I have no playstile.
Another point I do not have the proficiency grade of english im not English
Your last post was full of typing errors. This one was much better.
What I mean is your gameplan for beating Thresh. There are basically two different routes you can use. The first is to counter all threats, and therefore buy yourself enough time to find answers for stuff like CB and scuplt a strong hand. The other is saving your counters for your combo, where you will be on a much faster clock to race your opponents creatures and other hindering permanents.
My plan with 2 Spell Snare mainboard and 3 Remand is usually this:
-1/2 Wish
-1 Remand
-1 Opt
-1 Impulse
+2 Spell Snare
+2/3 Wipe Away
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
Your last post was full of typing errors. This one was much better.
My plan with 2 Spell Snare mainboard and 3 Remand is usually this:
-1/2 Wish
-1 Remand
-1 Opt
-1 Impulse
+2 Spell Snare
+2/3 Wipe Away
My conclusions are next: you prefer to take out ways to find the ritgh pieces than taking out directly the pieces. Why?
supossing we play 3 wipeaway we will play 2 main 1 in side ritgh? therefore if we leave 1 in side why do we side out 1 cunnin wish?
Won't you side out 1 high tide instead 1 cunnin wish in order to get more chances of getting the tide OR another wipeaway.
siding by this way how does the victory ratio get improved?
About the 4 cards you take out I absolutly agree with remand. I have doubts about the other 3 because I find the Ways to find the pieces slots to not to take out whatever happens. I mean Another way to side is to taking out cards belong to the category of 'pieces' like turnabout or tide
well now the thread is going on by the correct way.
Agree?
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
My conclusions are next: you prefer to take out ways to find the ritgh pieces than taking out directly the pieces. Why?
supossing we play 3 wipeaway we will play 2 main 1 in side ritgh? therefore if we leave 1 in side why do we side out 1 cunnin wish?
Won't you side out 1 high tide instead 1 cunnin wish in order to get more chances of getting the tide OR another wipeaway.
siding by this way how does the victory ratio get improved?
About the 4 cards you take out I absolutly agree with remand. I have doubts about the other 3 because I find the Ways to find the pieces slots to not to take out whatever happens. I mean Another way to side is to taking out cards belong to the category of 'pieces' like turnabout or tide
well now the thread is going on by the correct way.
Agree?
Solidarity is probably one of the most difficult decks to sideboard with. I'm not sure about boarding out one High Tide. I can see why it's useful, but I think Wish will be needed to find other pieces to answer or help in the combo.
It's certainly a good option to board out all 3/4 Remand, but those will have to be replaced by Brain Freeze, to make sure you will be able to find a kill. The combo is much less mana-intensive that way and the strategy allows for several mini-combo's. This, on it's own turn, will make you less dependant on the quality of your (and perhaps your opponents) hand, and that again gives you the opportunity to be more aggressive with your counters.
I board out 1 Opt and 1 Impulse because there is pretty much not much else you can safely board out. All the other cards are too important for your combo to lose. How's this (again with 2 Spell Snare, 3 Remand and 0 Wipe Away mainboard):
-3 Remand
-1 Opt
-1 High Tide
-1 Impulse
+2 Spell Snare
+2 Brain Freeze
+2 Wipe Away
Looks nice. It will indeed get most out of Wish this way.
Another question: In the Thresh matchup, Reset get's hit by Spell Snare. Is it a correct idea to board out a Reset for a Turnabout perhaps?
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
-3 remand
-1 Opt
-1 High Tide
-1 Impulse
+2 Spell Snare
+2 Brain Freeze
+2 Wipe Away
Looks nice. It will indeed get most out of Wish this way.
Another question: In the Thresh matchup, Reset get's hit by Spell Snare. Is it a correct idea to board out a Reset for a Turnabout perhaps?
I do think reset is lamost of times countered by the snare so its a good option to take it out.
My way to side out the cards is to taking out combo pieze in order to get more chances to get the correct card I mean : you maaany times in resp to a medlin mage and havin g no FoW you play impulse to look for it ritgh?
this situation will happen when our oppon plays a C.B and we want FoW OR Snare and having impulse OR opt in hand we simply have more chances to get this card that handles the trouble.
Another point is that last developments of tres decks carry full package of stifles and I think the correct way to win a tres deck is drawing via card drawers , not to getting 4 freezes in hand. I mean the card that must not be countered is the meditate. If our oppon has 4 stifles in hand and no counters for sure he will win if we have 4 freze in hand but for sure he won´t if we combo out by the ritgh via, I mean binding spells and having a turnabout to tap him out.
So maybe we board out:
-1 high tide
-1 reset
-2 remand
Note :we took out 3 cards of cost 2 to not to be snared too frequently
In:
2 snares
2 wipeaway
(for sure we will have 1 wipeaway and 1 freeze and 1 reset and 1 tide in side this makes the cunnin a card not to be taken out, it even is retired to not to let tarmo any chance of getting bigger :)). Opinions?
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
Decks post results as the sum of how often their played. Solidarity never made top 8 with high frequency due in large part to the fact that it only had a few dedicated pilots. Solidarity showed up once to Threshold or Goblins' 10 times during its busiest days. And except for a very brief span it was almost unheard of to see more than one or two copies of Solidarity in a huge tournament. Nowadays, Solidarity doesn't post results because people don't play it.
The thing about Solidarity is that it appeals to a very small base of player. It's intricate, highly complicated, takes months of dedication to play well and more still to master, and unlike a brief span it enjoyed back in the day, it's not considered to be in the very top echelon of decks. Also, it's not new and shiny. It hasn't changed hardly at all in several blocks.
Therefore you have to find someone who has the skill and dedication enough to enjoy playing a complicated, intricate deck, yet not the "Play the best deck or play the second best that beats the best deck" attitude commonly found in experts. And someone who can pick up a deck that isn't new and shiny. Therefore it's not surprising that most of the people playing Solidarity are the people who have been playing it for a long time.
Solidarity isn't the best deck and it loses to the best deck. But it beats a shitload of others. And in the right hands it'll see you to your fair share of top eights. Just most people want the newer, shinier decks, and Solidarity hasn't changed at all in several sets.
This seems like an ideal time to pop my head in :p
I'm a player who's been around magic for a long time, but am just now getting into the Eternal formats. When perusing the web for a legacy deck to settle on, it was Solidarity that caught my eye, mainly for the reasons you mentioned. Highly intricate, player dependant, and, as a general rule, people don't play it anymore :p
You guys have any advice as to a starting point for learning the ins and outs of the deck? I'm assuming it's probably one of those "just play it 50 million times" situations? :)
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Illuvator Brightstar
This seems like an ideal time to pop my head in :p
I'm a player who's been around magic for a long time, but am just now getting into the Eternal formats. When perusing the web for a legacy deck to settle on, it was Solidarity that caught my eye, mainly for the reasons you mentioned. Highly intricate, player dependant, and, as a general rule, people don't play it anymore :p
You guys have any advice as to a starting point for learning the ins and outs of the deck? I'm assuming it's probably one of those "just play it 50 million times" situations? :)
Yeah basically. Goldfishing is quite useful, but make sure you get experience with the deck in real matches. I wish there was a new primer I could present to you, but, altough we're kind of working on it, it's far from finished because we all don't know what the best list and strategy is. The best thing you can do is simply read this entire threat, which will absolutely help. It might take a bit of time tough....
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
I am new to legacy and thinking about maybe trying this deck but I was wondering what do you guys do about gaea's blessing could someone explain please?
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Gaea's blessing ability goes on stack. When it does, you can respon Remanding your brain Freeze, casting it again to empty their library, and then cunning wish for stroke of genious.
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Imho, the real problem of Solidarity is that you can autolose to decks that were not even prepared to play against it.
One for all is Faerie Stompy.
Chalices, Trinis and FOW
And what will you say to dreadstill?
They play 6/7 stifles.... and some of these are split second
Plus to that, painter is coming in, taking Gaeas into SBs
And in my neighborhood, dreadstill represents quite the 20% of decks you'll find in a tourney.
And there are too some really goods (and really luck) High Tide players, they usually top8 in all tourney they go, but I've never seen one of them in the final....
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VonDoom
Imho, the real problem of Solidarity is that you can autolose to decks that were not even prepared to play against it.
One for all is Faerie Stompy.
Chalices, Trinis and FOW
And what will you say to dreadstill?
They play 6/7 stifles.... and some of these are split second
Plus to that, painter is coming in, taking Gaeas into SBs
And in my neighborhood, dreadstill represents quite the 20% of decks you'll find in a tourney.
And there are too some really goods (and really luck) High Tide players, they usually top8 in all tourney they go, but I've never seen one of them in the final....
Faerie Stompy is a tough matchup, but as far as I know, not unwinnable. The deck is barely played, so it's not a big deal.
Dreadstill is a tough matchup as well. I've never played it, but looking at the list, the deck seems really strong against us.
I doubt many people will sideboard Blessing because of Painter-combo.
Re: [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) - Former DTB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VonDoom
Imho, the real problem of Solidarity is that you can autolose to decks that were not even prepared to play against it.
One for all is Faerie Stompy.
Chalices, Trinis and FOW
And what will you say to dreadstill?
They play 6/7 stifles.... and some of these are split second
Plus to that, painter is coming in, taking Gaeas into SBs
And in my neighborhood, dreadstill represents quite the 20% of decks you'll find in a tourney.
And there are too some really goods (and really luck) High Tide players, they usually top8 in all tourney they go, but I've never seen one of them in the final....
Stifle and Trickbind are not really problems if not backed with counterspells and Counterbalances. Remember you can Remand your Brain Freeze even against a trickbind.
And note that all those decks you cited fair well with other combo decks too. It's a general problem combo have right now. Many stifles and many counterbalances (or other permanent-based storm hate).
oh, and last time I tested solidarity against Faerie Stompy (long ago) it was something around 45-55 on their side. Not that bad.
