so tes is now ant, and ant is... pift? (past in flames tendrils?)
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so tes is now ant, and ant is... pift? (past in flames tendrils?)
ANT hasn't been an Ad Nauseam Deck since Mystical Tutor got banned, honestly. It's been much more similar to the old Iggy Pop decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
Seems like the deck names refer way more to the mana-bases than the cards used to find a win-con. These days, anyway.
Thats a good observation and useful. Thanks for pointing it out. MYbe we can go back to calling it by its old name: Fetchland Tendrils!Quote:
Originally Posted by gregtron
Would be smart if the Fetchland Tendrils Thread were not conquered by Doomsday listsQuote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Fetchlands Tendrils != Doomsday Fetchland TendrilsQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
But I agree that it will be confusing.
Just rename the Fetchland Tendrils thread "Doomsday."Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Seriously.
I really can't stand it when people say that an ANT list with a few Burning Wishes should be called TES instead. There is so much more that defines TES as a fundamentally different deck than the mere use of Burning Wish. Like Lejay said TES is much more optimized towards having the best Ad Nauseams. With cheaper spells and much more initial mana sources, as well as having more ways to find Tendrils post Ad Nauseam. For similar reasons, TES is also much better at casting an early Empty the Warrens. ANT on the other hand is indeed designed to better utilize Ill-Gotten Gains and/or Past in Flames, and to do this often heavily depends on reaching theshold. I want to scratch out my eyes when I see Timo Schunemann's GP Gent list listed as a TES deck on TC Decks...
Fetchlands Tendrils is just a really old name. For what I think used to be the collection of Tendrils decks that use Cabal Ritual as an accelerant. If you really want to change something I suppose you could archive the thread and start a new one solely on Doomsday. But except for that the name of the thread might be slightly off, I don't really see the point in doing so.
Rainbow Lands + Rite of Flame + Chrome Mox = TES
Isn't too hard to differ imo. Card selection focuses on faster mana burst and less damage off Ad Nauseam. ANT post Mystical Tutor is geared towards longer games, tre.shold and classic spellchains.
I said this many times in many different places, this version of the deck has been called T.N.T. since its inception (however there were different iterations of T.N.T., some with Rite of flame, some with cabal ritual, and some with both, see Liam's Kane old version, I can give a link). But it degenerate to A.N.T. for common use. Currently the term for A.N.T. is more suitable for the version.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennotsi
It's a but confusing but I think that the proper terms for current tendrils storm version in the current format are:
-T.E.S. IT/BW/RoF/Chrome Mox/Ad Nauseam (centric)/Rainbow mana base (there are some 3-color versions of the deck but are usually called 3C-T.E.S. or UBR-T.E.S.)
-A.N.T. IT/Grim T/Cabal Ritual/PiF (centric)
-T.N.T. IT/BW/Cabal Ritual/PiF (centric)
-D.D.F.T. doomsday deck in any version the most regular one is 4 colored/White protection/BW
-Spanish Inquisition No Blue (just BG, with some BGr versions)/8x Draw 4/Belcher/1-2 Land (there are also different versions of SI, with Summoner's pact/without it...
Greetings,
Ińaki.-
P.S. I'd rather think that A.N.T. is a fine name for the current Grim Tutor iteration, because PiF-Tendrils should be used for those versions that were more UR with multiple PiF and Freeze that appeared. If I had to change the name though, I would suggest "Legacy Tutor Storm" (L.T.S.), or something similar, jsut because the tutors are the really important cards which aneables any of the engines the deck has to win.
can't it just be called "storm"? everyone knows what storm is. everyone also knows what belcher is. the intricacies of whether you get killed with a doomsday pile or a tendrils are pretty insignificant in my opinion.
They are small but not insignificant. Just like Miracles and Stoneblade can't be lumped into an archetype UW Control (as a supertype, sure). They are different decks and different tactics within the same basic shell. Similarly, Storm decks are the supertype, but don't necessarily give you much information about the composition of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
FWIW, I think the best build going forward for this deck is Grim Tutor versions - let's call this Cabal ANT. It maximizes the acceleration from Cabal Ritual without getting choked on red mana. The TNT lists that use Rite of Flames might also be half a turn faster, but lose out on Tutor-chaining that Cabal ANT can manage.
Just because all of the decks generally kill with some a card and run Dark Ritual/Lion's Eye Diamond and Cantrips does not mean they play similarly at all, and they have pretty different strengths/weaknesses as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Just for an example on the DTB forum - there's a reason BUG has been split into two threads, even though they run 60%+ the same cards. ANT is more similar to the "controlly" build, it wants to take most decks into the late game, as the discard, basics, and high land count give it inevitability. TES is more of an Aggro build, and against most decks, it wants to kill the opponent before they can prepare for it.
Random question, I've got proxies for Carsten's "Cabal ANT" list from the Storm Experience articles. Any fine-tuning that should be made to it to make it "proper", esp. maindeck? Looking to have a full-proxy Legacy deck for fun games on the side, my bank account would wring my neck if I ever got the deck for real. (hundreds of euros for 12 lands... deargodwhy.jpg)
Also, any advice mindset-wise? I'm pretty much clueless on Legacy Storm, though I'm competent with Storm in Pauper and play a tutor-heavy GBW Hulk combo deck in Highlander (!=EDH).
I've switched to Inaki's list since (-2 Preordain + Grim + Therapy) and forced the EtW into the sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
As for mindset, it's quite different from Pauper Storm. You're a combo-control deck against most types of combo and similarly try to grind out blue decks (rip their hand apart with discard, kill them with Will uhm, I mean PiF). Obviously you can still kill people on the spot if the option shows itself thanks to Probe. You try to goldfish everybody without countermagic.
Kills (in order of preference): Tutor-chain, PiF, AdN.
Hope that helps, enjoy the deck :)
well but maybe a new name will be fun... "the p.i.t"? (past in tendrils) XDDD
I like the Fetchlands Tendrils vs. DDFT idea ... FT is exactly what the deck is about and intricate enough to not sound cheap, UBx storm is also fine
Edit: well, Grimflames Fullmoon UBeR Ant is what I usually fill the decklists with...
Iv always liked ANT in Flames,been calling it that for a while now.
I'm playing a completely standard list, but considering switching the 3x BW to 2x Grim Tutor + 1 more card. What do you guys think of a singleton Intuition? I know that it's weak to Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, but if you're running the Probe-Therapy build you can make sure that it's safe. You can also play around the Surgical by getting redundant rituals and tutors. It's almost a single-card storm engine (search for 2x rituals, PiF). Or if it's late in the combo, search for ritual, PiF, Tutor.
Imagine this 4-card hand: Dark Ritual, Grim Tutor, 2x LED. You have 2x Underground Sea in play. You can mini-Tendrils or try to get lucky with Ad Nauseam but it's not a sure kill.
Now imagine: Dark Ritual, Intuition, 2x LED. Same lands. Rit -> LED -> LED -> Intuition, crack LEDs for R/U (floating RRRUUUB), get CRit, Infernal Tutor, PiF. Opponent chooses:
PiF in hand: PiF (floating UUB) -> CRit -> Rit -> Tutor -> Tutor -> Tendrils
CRit in hand: CRit (floating RRRUUBBBBB) -> FB PiF (floating UBBBB) -> CRit -> Rit -> Tutor -> Tendrils
Tutor in hand: Tutor (floating RRRUU) get LED -> LED for black -> FB PiF (floating UBB) -> CRit -> Rit -> Tutor -> Tendrils
All of these chains leave U floating at all times leaving the option to FB Intuition for more business if necessary. If you already have Infernal Tutor in hand (and can get Hellbent), Intuition for 3x CRit sets up a lethal Tendrils - you will have threshold off the 2 in the yard, and then when you tutor for PiF you will have massive storm and mana. Hand full of mana + Intuition? Get CRit, PiF, Tendrils.
Or what about 1x Meditate instead? It's a bit less reliable on the combo turn because you probably can't cast it until after ritualing, and at that point you could just fizzle. I'm leery of D4s in general for that reason. However, it is very strong to grind against blue decks - cast on their EOT and then go off with 11 cards in hand. Also a strong play in response to a Hymn to Tourach.
tried that instead of 2nd Grim Tutor some time ago but did no like it much, thanks for reminding, I may revise the idea now
I've actually been trying 2x Grim + 1 Abrupt Decay. I don't really like Wish in the current lists, because it's not very good at getting actual engine cards unlike in TES, and I haven't found EtW to be so effective against the current meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uranium
Grim on the other hand is pretty decent, allowing you to PiF/Adn without the need for another tutor. The one thing that Wish has going for it though is versatility, giving you outs to G1 cards like Gaddock Teeg or artifact lock pieces, etc. 2x Grim 1x Abrupt Decay gives you just as many outs, also being 3cc for better CB resiliency vs Miracles.
To be perfectly honest I have not tested it enough, but it looked pretty decent on paper and I did get to use it a couple of times in testing. Not sure what the final word is on that, something to consider though.
I really, really don't think 3 3CC Tutors is right for the deck. 2 of them is already extremely clunky (there's a reason there has been so much talk on this forum about cutting the 2nd Grim Tutor for something like Snapcaster, the card is not particularly good, it just happens to be the best bad card for the slot) -- as far as intuition, it's certainly not at its best in the current meta with Deathrite Shaman finding its home in just about every deck. It seems like, on average, it's going to be a little worse than Grim Tutor to me -- but I love me some tutor chains, and Intuition isn't very good in a tutor chain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uranium
Honestly, I think if you're cutting 3x BW to 2x Grim Tutor, your final card wants to be either a cantrip or a land, as 15 land is not all that many to be casting Grim Tutor.
Adam prosak's list makes me want to vomit. less protection seems kind of loose. good luck ever beating a surgical extraction on IT. gemstone mine? only 7 fetches? the prordains seem ok, i think the format isn't slow enough yet to warrant a bunch of cantrips right now (also at that point why not just play tide?).
I'm probably just stupid.
I agree. I was listening to his deck tech and almost spat my drink out when he said "sixteen cantrips." Just seems like a lot of durdling and cantripping into other cantrips. I'd rather run Burning Wishes or more disruption instead of those for sure.
Best of luck to him in the SCG Invi, and it's amazing that he went 4-0 in Legacy yesterday, but I'm not a fan of his decklist.
The format is pretty slow...with 16 cantrips, you're still outracing any non combo deck, and it seems better to play preordain than a tutor against BUG. 7 fetches is super low, though, and Gemstone Mine does not seem that good, but I don't mind the cantrips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Superior
Have you guys played carpet of flowers at all? I have run it in the past, and even the matchups where it seemed awesome on paper (RUG, Merfolk) it wasn't all that exciting.
I have also seen Adam's deckteck, at first I thought: wtf?, but I don't think a good player as he is would bring a bad deck to a SCG Invi, maybe the list has a lot of adaptation to the SCG Opens metagame, personally, I'll give it a try.
There're some things I really like from the list:
-The list is completely UB, only splashing PIF (no Bayou/Tropical Island MD)
-He plays 3 basics, I'm currently playing 2, I have also seen that build in Carsten Kötter's article, maybe is usefull in RUG/BUG matchups.
-2 Gemstone Mines are pretty interesting even though you are playing a stable manabase, they help you on splashing red (MD) or Green (SB) at the same time. Wasteland is an issue but if you don't play the gemstones you'll play more dual lands so...
-Some preordain MD, while I was testing I really love how grindy the deck was by playing a ton of cantrips with a basic island, maybe a pair of Preordains MD would be a good choice.
I don't like:
-Only 4 tutors, you run 4 preordain to find them but I'm sure 1 or 2 Grim tutor replacing cantrips will be a much better choice, I think he is playing like that due to the lack of Grims (he said the deck was borrowed).
-Only 6 discard spells, I think he cut cabal therapy because he doesn't run any creature on the SB, I really like 7-8 discard spells MD, but he is running a ton of manipulation...
-No xantid swarm SB!! :frown:, OMG those insects are awesome!
-No GY Hate SB! (Reanimator is a bad matchup...)
-4 Abrupt Decay seems too much
I'll definetly give the list a try, I have never played carpet of flowers but seems pretty good.
Greetings!
Reuben Bresler, the guy doing the interview almost choked on his saliva after Prozak corrected him when he said ANT normally wins on turn 2 and Prosac replied ''Oh no I usually go of on turns 4 or 5.."
Dude WTF, this is ANT not Spiral Tide, there's a difference.
here is a link where he plays that deck on his stream, if anyone is interested here, with his commantary
http://www.twitch.tv/aprosak/b/345618583
Also, he really doesn't use Grim Tutor, even on stream, so it does seem like it's a design choice
I have played carpet in the board, more in doomsday though because the free mana you get at least gets you top activations, the only time i want it is versus rug typically. not even versus fish. with more discard beating fish is really easy and playing around daze is nothing. the reason a lot of the lists run the top main is not to take sideboard space(it would replace a gemstone in my list, the other gemstone is a fetch) the opportunity cost of that green non basic main is not that high, especially when you are replacing it with another worse non basic.
4 decay is fine. you are probably never beating CB without it so you want to find it and i am ok with jamming 4 since once the lock is online your cantrips are dead so you need to draw one i understand why people want less but i typically board in like 7-8 cards for the CB matchup because i find it so abysmal, and i'm OK with that since it is our worst match up and i rarely board for most other decks so i have the space.
boy do i love me some slaughter pact. i will say that.
He just WON a game by getting an IT extracted on the SCG stream.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
He played that one so masterfully... jesus that game was AWESOME. That was all experience right there... (Also lucksacking that PiF G1 was... lucky lol)
Whooohaooo, feels great to have won that tournament after a month of no MTG.
Side note-Beat 2 T.E.S. back to back ;),thought that was supposed to be the better Storm deck lol......
Adam's aura of confidence was one of the best jedi mind tricks I've seen in a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
How would you guys approach the matchup against miracles? Cause it's quite heavily played in my metagame recently besides BUG. First game, I am almost too afraid to see a counterbalance landing the table that all my discards are used for it rather than FOW. Game 2 or 3, Abrupt decay settles the counterbalance but the SDT in play makes going off a bit riskier at the same time. Thoughts?
Happens all the time... but in win-and-in truly masterful and his opponent too inpatient, interesting he played IT first btw... anyway I think he should have gone PiF->IT->LED-Cantrips G1 (not just because his AN was horrible) and didn't play petals before passing the turnQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
btw. he doesn't play good on the stream and the burn game was also tight, sadly the Top8 was Standard...
I was watching his stream, when testing the Deck online and I must admit he plays very passive. I guess he just wants to make sure he's not making a mistake. Matchups differ, too. Sometimes you just have to get rid of more than one counterspell. He's playing more cantrips hence a less stream-lined build. I guess his assumption makes sense considering what we know about deck and pilot. He did come out 8th, must have done something right.:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatestitcher
The matchup is some kind of variable, I mean, G1 I always try to have a discard outlet in hand for his counterbalance, even a blind one can be pretty annoying (they have Brainstorm), an early goldfish for EtW seems pretty risky (counterspells+terminus), so my plan is to play a grindy matchup (besides godhand), in your favour is his lack of pressing, If you hit his counterbalance and they can't find another quickly you are in a pretty favorable shape, because no matter how number of counterspells they have, you'll finally get through with your protection spells or simply overwhelming them by generating a ton of mana, there will be unwinnable games if they have everything to defend his counterwall engine or even if they are defenseless and spin top to see the counterspell ftw, is not a good match after all. You have to find the point between agresive and defensive mode by playing the match a lot, I also need to play it much more after my exams.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
If you hope to see a lot of counterbalance I would suggest playing 4 abrupt decay.
Post SB you can get rid of his engine pretty easily, just keep a hand with enough protection or manipulation for find it (a grindy one), besides god hands once again. I also add 4 Xantid Swarm, so post SB I play with 11 protection spells + 3 Abrupt decay. I really think the matchup gets much better post SB.
it was a jedi mindtrick? i mean... his opponent played really really bad with that surgical
You can always fall back to the old plan of boarding in more Tendrils and hitting them with a natural. They really take forever to kill you with Angels, so you sometimes have the luxury of sitting back and playing lands until you have eight spells in hand to break through just about anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
Now the Helm/Rest in Peace version... I don't know, do we even win that one ever?
He said turns 3 or 4, not 4 or 5, the 16 cantrip version isn't as slow as people are making it out to be. The main difference between Adam's list and other lists I find is that it plays out Island, cantrip. Island, cantrip, cantrip and then dual land, disruption into the win way more than the Grim Tutor lists and has a much higher chance of hitting that 3rd land drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatestitcher