[Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

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Originally Posted by phonics

The relevant discussion here should be about the ramifications of scg having the ability to dictate prices to a degree that other retailers cannot.

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They've issued a statement to the effect of "our price points are our own business; how everyone else chooses to set their own has nothing to do with us."
I get it, but the de facto lack of responsibility is clashing with the reality; that people are handling this like it's a zero-sum game, and claiming that they are 'losing money' if they don't fall in line with raising price points.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

This thread went full retard. SCG supports legacy by running tournies. Do they do it for free? No. But if you would like to run a 500 person event for charity, I will attend that as well. SCG, outside of the few GPs and other few random larger tournies, are the only ones that really help legacy along by running large scale tournies and are willing to keep it going year after year. I sure as hell have been trying for the past year and a half to convince the LGS owner to run a large legacy tournament, but to no avail so far. So for now, I will continue giving money to the people who support the format I play, SCG for bring me 3-4 5Ks that I get to attend a year, and my LGS that runs a weekly legacy. You, living across the sea, I assume, don't get the chance to attend SCG events. I understand. But in the states, if it werent for them, legacy would be fucked.

Just as a reminder, there's a fine line between a contentious but civil discussion and just being dicks to each other. If you disagree with a user's opinions, deal with the opinions, don't attack the user.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

The market leader has always been able to do that. The ramifications are that either (a.) the market marches to SCG's drum or (b.) the market will reject whatever SCG is doing and SCG will have to do the moving and shaking in order to accomodate the market.

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

I get it, but the de facto lack of responsibility is clashing with the reality; that people are handling this like it's a zero-sum game, and claiming that they are 'losing money' if they don't fall in line with raising price points.

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This is basically what I mean. Why does SCG's prices influence the market so much? Sure they are a big player in the market, and probably the most well known retailer, but there are many alternatives. I don't know if convenience justifies the price differentials that occur when they change prices. Is it because traditional ways of determining value like ebay do not have enough volume to accurately price cards?

I believe it does not help the market that SCG can afford to BUY cards at a highly set price, then sell for even higher. They engulf the market and people do think: "Why would i sell my Wasteland for 50$ when I can sell it to SCG for 60$?"
Having enough money and market share helps you manipulate it. Also, having apparent ties with WOTC doesn't hurt it either.

As said earlier, it was a matter of time for years now to have someone drive the prices so high by doing the things market responds best to - buying and selling stock.

Again, I don't see how SCG, a market leader, having the financial muscle to do whatever it pleases is any different than other industry leaders (Wal-Mart, Apple, etc) flexing their muscle and proclaiming, "this product now is worth $x.xx, deal with it."

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Again, I don't see how SCG, a market leader, having the financial muscle to do whatever it pleases is any different than other industry leaders (Wal-Mart, Apple, etc) flexing their muscle and proclaiming, "this product now is worth $x.xx, deal with it."

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There actually is a difference. If Apple decides their iPod is worth 1000 dollars, there is a possibility of an alternative that can be superior/cheaper like a Zune for example. There is no alternative to underground sea in magic cards. Yes there are shock lands, but that isn't comparable and is a strictly worse card whereas in the MP3 industry, the Zune could theoretically be created to be a superior product.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

This thread went full retard. SCG supports legacy by running tournies. Do they do it for free? No. But if you would like to run a 500 person event for charity, I will attend that as well. SCG, outside of the few GPs and other few random larger tournies, are the only ones that really help legacy along by running large scale tournies and are willing to keep it going year after year. I sure as hell have been trying for the past year and a half to convince the LGS owner to run a large legacy tournament, but to no avail so far. So for now, I will continue giving money to the people who support the format I play, SCG for bring me 3-4 5Ks that I get to attend a year, and my LGS that runs a weekly legacy.

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My sentiments exactly.

SCG has done more than any other company (including WOTC) to make the competitive Legacy scene as prosperous as it is. Of course, I don't think they do this entirely out of the goodness of their hearts, but I do believe they like the format, as evidenced by their willingness to use the Legacy Opens as a loss leader when the format was first taking off. As long as their interests as a business align with mine as a Legacy player, I will give them my business at the preference of other stores that do not (and I will likewise give my local stores that hold Legacy events my business over ones that do not).

I am not delusional enough to think they would support Legacy if it were bleeding their bottom line, but I do not understand this cynicism that they are merely fattening up Legacy before the slaughter. Yes, they aggressively promoted their Modern GP at Richmond, but they've aggressively promoted every single one of their events, including their Opens, Invitationals, IQs, and Limited format GPs, and I expect they will similarly promote the Legacy GP they will be holding at Edison later this year. Yes, Legacy staples have shot up in price, but that is in response to drastically increased demand. If SCG were to move away from Legacy because the cost of staples exceeded the point that most of us consider reasonable, they would have done so several years ago. However, attendance figures at Legacy Opens continues to increase even as the cost of entry spikes.

The tournaments SCG runs are widely considered to be the most awesome events in Magic. SCG has had countless opportunities recently to move away from Legacy Opens, but instead, they doubled up on their commitment to Legacy by changing every single Sunday Open this year to Legacy format. Until the day they abandon Legacy, if that day ever comes, I will give them my business and the benefit of doubt with respect to their future plans.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

There actually is a difference. If Apple decides their iPod is worth 1000 dollars, there is a possibility of an alternative that can be superior/cheaper like a Zune for example. There is no alternative to underground sea in magic cards. Yes there are shock lands, but that isn't comparable and is a strictly worse card whereas in the MP3 industry, the Zune could theoretically be created to be a superior product.

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There have been legions of competitors that market leaders have had to deal with... the vast majority of them have either remained a minor player in the industry or sputtered out and died.

Also, if the iPod was $1,000, the competitor would have to price their product so aggressively while maintaining similar quality, that I don't understand how they'd be able to survive.

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Originally Posted by phonics

Why does SCG's prices influence the market so much?

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Because they have the best access to supply and demand trends, which allows them to set prices accordingly to what the market will bear.

That question is like "Why do lines set by Vegas influence the outcome of professional sports so much?" There might be rare instances of corruption in sports in which players are paid to shave points or refs are bought to influence the line, but that question is putting the horse before the cart: the Spurs would be huge favorites against the Sixers because Vegas recognizes the former to be the better team and sets the line appropriately, and more often than not, the Spurs would win by a comfortable margin.

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Originally Posted by swoop

It's a few. 40 tournaments where they make money, they're not altruits, they're doing this for a sole benefit of profit. They manipulate the market, they get inside info of new sets, and they inflate the prices of the cards artificially.
The market bears it for now but people are not happy with the way it's going, and people need to be happy to continue to buy product. Happy customers happy company.

Also yeah, 40 tournaments is nothing. 400k in award money (is it money or is it store credit?) is almost nothing compared to what they make in product sales at those tournaments.
Just calculate the price of admission multiply it with number of attendants, then subtract some fee for organisation and they'll still be in plus.

They're just glorified traders doing it for a sole purpose of profit. Nothing else.

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Again, why is it a bad thing that they make money off of the tournaments? They profit from it and we benefit from having a growing Legacy scene. Seems win-win to me.

40 tournaments being a small number? Name any organizer that does even a quarter of that number at the size that SCG gets.

The tournaments are their way to sway the public opinion towards the way they want it.

As stated before I see them as a type of charity donations by corporations - a type of social entrepreneurship that enables them to create larger profit margins.

They create by investing a climate where cards are needed and they give the solution right away, the cards itself.

I wanted to say that they are neither good thing nor a bad thing, just a mean to an end to create more profit.

I can't agree more with lordofthepit. They have best acces to supply and demand lines

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by phonics

The relevant discussion here should be about the ramifications of scg having the ability to dictate prices to a degree that other retailers cannot.

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This... What's up with all the SCG shills and apologists? If there is a Monsanto of the card market it's SCG.

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Originally Posted by Bertrand Hustle

This... What's up with all the SCG shills and apologists? If there is a Monsanto of the card market it's SCG.

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Whenever you feel like trumping SCG by holding a regularly scheduled tournament circuit and selling Legacy staples for well under market value, I will support your tournaments and your business.

Also, terrific analogy comparing SCG to Monsanto. Making money because you run an exciting tournament circuit that gives players the opportunity to use their playing cards more frequently is totally analogous to predatory practices that choke off the food supply by destroying alternative crops, backed by a strong inclination for litigation.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Whenever you feel like trumping SCG by holding a regularly scheduled tournament circuit and selling Legacy staples for well under market value, I will support your tournaments and your business.

Also, terrific analogy comparing SCG to Monsanto. Making money because you run an exciting tournament circuit that gives players the opportunity to use their playing cards more frequently is totally analogous to predatory practices that choke off the food supply by destroying alternative crops, backed by a strong inclination for litigation.

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While not as comprehensive in terms of finding foreign cards or misprints, TCGPlayer works well as an aggregator and a way to find cards somewhat cheap, my 2nd go to place after my LGS. While I am not entirely privy to the ethics of their business and how much/if they also collude with stores they work with I'm open to hearing anything.

Read earlier in the thread with the closed door meeting about reprints, also don't forget them cornering the fetch market. They are best friends with Wizards. I'm not saying it has the same degree of destruction to our everyday lives and well being, but manipulating the market and have what is essentially closed door litigation with the proprietor of the game are not becoming of a good business and are analogous to your examples presented. Monsanto has essentially made it so only yellow corn is grown in the U.S. by having people in the FDA, I don't see what's wrong with my analogy. I can also argue that since "Monsanto feeds the world!" (obviously propaganda/bullshit) "Starcity runs the entire tourney scene" (also obvious propaganda/bullshit, the game can exist fine without them). Ad absurdum that's your argument. Whenever you have a monopoly that fulfills a need of course you are the ones providing the service!


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Nothing is an either/or proposition. The tournaments are a fine thing but it is fine and right to question the ethics of this business like any other.

Apologist implies that SCG has done something wrong. Those of us who buy cards from them and appreciate the SCG Open series don't believe that there's anything to apologize for.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

a Zune for example.

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To quote a wonderful program, "What's a Zune?"

I understand why there are both positive and negative feelings aimed toward Star City. My only point I wish to make in this discussion at this time is that people are willing to pay the price that Star City sets for their singles and they continue to lead the market in making large scale tournaments successful and available. Care to guess when the next decent sized tournament is in Michigan? If you guessed a Star City event, you guessed right. The one after will also likely be one of their events.

More importantly, "What's a Zune?"

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Apologist implies that SCG has done something wrong. Those of us who buy cards from them and appreciate the SCG Open series don't believe that there's anything to apologize for.

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This.

To return to my previous post, I buy almost exclusively from SCG at this point because the things I usually buy are fairly esoteric and random, and they are far more likely to have the item(s) in stock. I will occasionally buy from another place if SCG does not have the item, or there is a truly significant price difference. I trust SCG's customer service (which is impeccable) more than anyone else's, and I am willing to pay an occasional premium for an item because of that. I don't buy duals, etc. from them because I can find them significantly cheaper most of the time, but random foils for EDH are my bread and butter; the combination of selection and customer service gives me confidence to choose to buy from them.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Again, I don't see how SCG, a market leader, having the financial muscle to do whatever it pleases is any different than other industry leaders (Wal-Mart, Apple, etc) flexing their muscle and proclaiming, "this product now is worth $x.xx, deal with it."

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Those examples arent exactly comparable. In the case of Apple, they sell their own unique product that no one else makes, sure there are different computers or different music players, but no other company makes apple computers as well, whereas in the magic market everyone is selling the same thing, it is more like a commodity than a product. Wal-Mart on the other hand uses their position to make prices lower than what competitors can afford to do so, which is the opposite of what happens in the mtg card market. I can't think of any other kind of market that operates in this way.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Because they have the best access to supply and demand trends, which allows them to set prices accordingly to what the market will bear.

That question is like "Why do lines set by Vegas influence the outcome of professional sports so much?" There might be rare instances of corruption in sports in which players are paid to shave points or refs are bought to influence the line, but that question is putting the horse before the cart: the Spurs would be huge favorites against the Sixers because Vegas recognizes the former to be the better team and sets the line appropriately, and more often than not, the Spurs would win by a comfortable margin.

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Is it wrong for me to assume that SCG doesn't have the ability to acquire enough of a card to the point that they can dictate the price? I felt that print runs were so large that getting to that point was not possible. Market prices are generally dictated by what people are willing to pay, but SCG increases that price and people are willing to pay that much more. This doesn't have anything to do with SCG specifically, I feel like it is probably something like the market being much more stagnant than it is believed to be and the prices SCG put up just 'correct' the market. It just seems so unintuitive for the market to correct itself in this way.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Whenever you feel like trumping SCG by holding a regularly scheduled tournament circuit and selling Legacy staples for well under market value, I will support your tournaments and your business.

Also, terrific analogy comparing SCG to Monsanto. Making money because you run an exciting tournament circuit that gives players the opportunity to use their playing cards more frequently is totally analogous to predatory practices that choke off the food supply by destroying alternative crops, backed by a strong inclination for litigation.

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Pretty much this.

If anyone can't afford the expensive duals, I'd say him to not buy them (and maybe even sell those that he has like I did). It's not like we're discussing famine and sealed tithe banks, we're discussing unavailability of carboard crack.

I think that instead of crying about evil, evil SCG, some people should start their own business and their own tournament circuit to show us how it should be done in a fair way. Alas, the laws of economics are deafdumbblind, and if you won't be pricing your stuff appropriatelly, you'll end with a) nothing sold or b) nothing to sell. It's players fault that they buy pieces of paper for their weight in gold, it's WotC's fault that they implemented and then further cemented their bullshit reprint policy, it's WotC's and SCG's fault that they are interlinked and do shady stuff like sharing "godbooks" knowledge, or w/e the else, but this has nothing to do with what several users bitch about - the so-called "overpriced" cards. Again, as long as people buy them, they are not overpriced, the price is set right.

A small and last note, as this topic is annoying. There was a shop in our city called Exil that used an anti-economics approach. It was more of a club for the few than a real shop, they had prices set more close to the "street prices", etc. You may do the same and build the same club/lgs using the same approach, but there are some troubles. First, you still balance on the edge, because you can't react to price swings. Your cards are easily bought out, unless you make artificial limits for sales. But then you're limiting your own customers, which is esp. bad when there are other shops that don't care. This of course limits your community's growth, which in fact might not interest you (as your only concern are those fifty ppl that visit your club), yet there's a trouble that for every one that dies, quits or is abducted by aliens, no other player may come. You'll be a prey of every shark who'll buys out your stuff, you'll have troubles to purchase anything, as your low selling prices mean low repurchase prices, thus ppl won't sell to your shop, etc., etc., all those annoying economic stuff that socialists are blind about.
Know what? That Exil shop went bankrupt.

tl,dr: SCG sells for what ppl buy for, something something supply demand

I haven't seen anyone mention how much price pressure there is on legacy staples because SCG needs to have stock to run the events. They can't have weekly tournaments and then shrug their shoulders and say 'sorry, we are sold out of all of these staples'

So the buy price goes up, sale price goes up, staples sell out, repeat.

I am confident that the SCG tournament series is THE reason for the legacy price bubble and if/when they discontinue support the bubble will go with it.

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Originally Posted by Kemp

I haven't seen anyone mention how much price pressure there is on legacy staples because SCG needs to have stock to run the events. They can't have weekly tournaments and then shrug their shoulders and say 'sorry, we are sold out of all of these staples'

So the buy price goes up, sale price goes up, staples sell out, repeat.

I am confident that the SCG tournament series is THE reason for the legacy price bubble and if/when they discontinue support the bubble will go with it.

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Was commander/edh a popular format back when starcity started the legacy opens? I would imagine edh/kitchen table/collectors would eat up cheapish duals and other legacy staples should the price drop due to no legacy opens.

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Originally Posted by Lt. Quattro

Was commander/edh a popular format back when starcity started the legacy opens? I would imagine edh/kitchen table/collectors would eat up cheapish duals and other legacy staples should the price drop due to no legacy opens.

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Not only that but were they to discontinue legacy support it would be highly likely another company would pick up the ball and run with it.

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Originally Posted by Kemp

I am confident that the SCG tournament series is THE reason for the legacy price bubble and if/when they discontinue support the bubble will go with it.

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Not a direct comment on what you said, and not saying you were saying otherwise, but it has to be said: The pushing of WotC is the reason for Modern prices, more than SCG is responsible for Legacy prices, if/when WotC lessens support, prices would go down with it, and SCG has been more reliable in support for formats than WotC has been.

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Originally Posted by Scott

Not a direct comment on what you said, and not saying you were saying otherwise, but it has to be said: The pushing of WotC is the reason for Modern prices, more than SCG is responsible for Legacy prices, if/when WotC lessens support, prices would go down with it, and SCG has been more reliable in support for formats than WotC has been.

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I agree about the relationship between WotC and Modern but I'd like to know why you feel that SCG isn't as influential in the Legacy format. I understand that WotC is the company that makes Magic and WotC supports Modern, but the population of reserve list staples is much smaller than Modern staples and so the influence need not be as great to have a larger impact on overall prices.

My intuition is that Starcity has a problem: They have created a monster with Legacy. Prices have to go up, to suit their business model, until people lose interest or are priced out and at that point Legacy will start to decline. The popularity of the format is the problem given that reprints are out of the question. Legacy is its own worst enemy.

Why aren't there more sanctioned and non-sanctioned Vintage tournaments? Is Vintage truly not a 'fun' format? I realize how few sets of power exist, but a portion of those sets are out there and people do organize non-sanctioned events. I haven't run the numbers but I would wager that 15 proxy Vintage is one of the cheapest formats available.

I hope that people have deeper pockets than they did 10-12 years ago or else I can't imagine a different outcome for Legacy.

Was anyone here playing Vintage back then? Do you remember the tipping point when Vintage punched the clock and retreated into obscurity?

Pretty sure SCG would like to see the reserved list abolished as much as the next player/person. They sell more cards to players if cards come down in price, not if they go up as their margins will hover around 50% regardless of the price. Volume over price every day of the week if your margins are what they claim them to be.

It's not SCG fault legacy staples are high, it's the interest in Magic over the last 4-5 years where the Magic player base has grown like 30% each year or some crazy number.

Prices are going up in every format, not just Legacy. Terrible casual cards like Glimpse the Unthinkable, Angus Mackenzie, and Sliver Queen are absurdly expensive. Several Standard-legal cards in the past few years have eclipsed the $50 mark. A tier 1 Modern deck today costs more than a tier 1 Legacy did when Modern was announced as a format.

Part of the explosion in Legacy prices can be attributed to demand specifically for this format, but much of it can also be attributed to "a rising tide lifts all ships".

Hey guys:

Just wanted to pop in to clear up a couple of misconceptions here.

1) Wizards asked us (me) to come out to discuss the reserve list. (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...?Article=18824) We were (and still are) firmly in the camp of wanting to see the reserve list abolished.

2) The only advance cards we have access to are the 1-3 preview cards (for articles) we get per set release. We typically get them one week before the previews are set to go live (for instance, we got our Journey into Nyx cards last week). We do not have access to the Godbooks, and we have never had access to any Godbooks.

- Ben

I made the decision last night that most of my vintage stuff is going on ebay. Going to keep a set of beat unlimited power and thats pretty much it. When I can drop a beta lotus and buy a Picasso or a few Salvador Dali pieces its time to really think about selling before the bubble burst.

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Originally Posted by Technicolor Mage

Pretty sure SCG would like to see the reserved list abolished as much as the next player/person. They sell more cards to players if cards come down in price, not if they go up as their margins will hover around 50% regardless of the price. Volume over price every day of the week if your margins are what they claim them to be.

It's not SCG fault legacy staples are high, it's the interest in Magic over the last 4-5 years where the Magic player base has grown like 30% each year or some crazy number.

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Dont you think theoretical 50% is a bit much?

Now Mr. BB said two things: they don't want Reserved list and they don't get goodbooks.

This clears some things up obviously.

Still, a mostly US centered store (obviously largest) dictates most prices.

You either follow or you lose. What's the solution?

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

What do you want? WOTC to just come down and tell SCG to stop selling magic cards? Maybe if a challenger appeared something could change, but I honestly don't see the issue. I'd say the issue is the RL, not Scg

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

What do you want? WOTC to just come down and tell SCG to stop selling magic cards? Maybe if a challenger appeared something could change, but I honestly don't see the issue. I'd say the issue is the RL, not Scg

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RL aside, Wizards is still a bunch of dicks for not reprinting the Non-RL staples in a reasonable way/quantity.

Stuff like Wasteland, Port, Karakas, FoW, etc. shouldn't be so outrageously expensive as they are right now since they're all reprintable.

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Originally Posted by Barook

RL aside, Wizards is still a bunch of dicks for not reprinting the Non-RL staples in a reasonable way/quantity.

Stuff like Wasteland, Port, Karakas, FoW, etc. shouldn't be so outrageously expensive as they are right now since they're all reprintable.

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Thing is, if they did reprint them... that just shifts the problem onto the cards that are on the Reserved List. If a card becomes cheaper due to a reprint, then the other cards in that deck go up in price, because everyone who can get the reprinted card for cheap thinks to themselves "now that I've got this, I should try to make a deck with it." Reprinting the non-Reserved cards just increases the price of the Reserved List cards further, ultimately being a band-aid solution at best.

Though it would benefit the few decks that run zero cards on the list, e.g. Death & Taxes and Merfolk.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Thing is, if they did reprint them... that just shifts the problem onto the cards that are on the Reserved List. If a card becomes cheaper due to a reprint, then the other cards in that deck go up in price, because everyone who can get the reprinted card for cheap thinks to themselves "now that I've got this, I should try to make a deck with it." Reprinting the non-Reserved cards just increases the price of the Reserved List cards further, ultimately being a band-aid solution at best.

Though it would benefit the few decks that run zero cards on the list, e.g. Death & Taxes and Merfolk.

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I would take a band-aid over a format bleeding slowly to its death.

Not reprinting anything ever isn't a good solution.

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Originally Posted by Barook

I would take a band-aid over a format bleeding slowly to its death.

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But the point is that the format would still bleed slowly to its own death. The only difference is that it would take slightly longer to do so; which, admittedly, is still a bonus.

@DRS banning-

Holy shit snacks, those Noble Hierarchs jumped right up didn't they?

sent from phone, don't be a dick

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

@DRS banning-

Holy shit snacks, those Noble Hierarchs jumped right up didn't they?

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Yeah, and for me NO RUG is definitely out of question. Nevermind, I still bath in other cards I'll never play, so it's no like I need to waste money for a set of NOs, a Clique or two and three more Hierarchs.
Also, I realized some lands are going crazy. Ancient Tomb, yeah, we know it, but also Grove of the BW.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Ancient Tomb, yeah, we know it, but also Grove of the BW.

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Makes me happy I kept both of my FTV: Realms unopened.

Edric got bought out on TCG player it appears. I guess the miser copy in Rill's list paired with some hype around Bahra's run on modo with Noble Fish pushed people to reevaluate the card in Legacy and it's $5 price point.

Edric is probably a sleeper card. Although that price spike is hilarious.