[Deck] Aggro Loam

I want to go, but unfortunately real life circumstances may prevent me.

I've been busy with finals and stuff and haven't played a single game with this deck since Providence. However, if I go I am committed to embarrassing myself with this deck again.

Only change I'm seriously considering from my last list is cutting Thrun for a Thoughtseize in the board. Revoker is probably another suboptimal board choice as well, but he's one of my pet cards so I don't think I can let him go. I might also cut something in the manabase that doesn't produce Black mana for something that does.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix

I want to go, but unfortunately real life circumstances may prevent me.

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Shaaaaaaame...


But yeah, while I do love having access to a Thrun when I need one, he's just... I just don't ever need him as much as I do the other things.

I haven't yet had the opportunity to test a bunch with geddon, but it feels good whenever I'm at all ahead on board. The effect also does not hurt too much if I have a land in hand and a mox on board (common occurrence). I'm also currently playing a 1of DRS which helps.

If I wanted a less symmetrical effect Choke, Tsunami, Winter Orb, and Boil are all options against omni, miracles, etc. I think being slightly more versatile is worth it but I don't yet have a lot of data to back it up.

So pardon my ignorance with these questions. What is the draw to this deck over something like lands? Also when talking about 4 colour loam and aggro loam are they essentially the same deck or are there slight differences?

If you guys got any other advice/comments/whatever for someone interested in playing aggro loam, i'd love to hear it.

Lands is a Control/Prison deck with a fairly high reliance on the graveyard. In games where it does not see a life from the loam, it is pretty underpowered.

4 color loam is a midrange/control deck that utilizes Life from the loam as a card advantage engine and plays a land toolbox with loam and knight of the reliquary. In games where 4 color loam does not see a loam it is not necessarily any worse off, but of course it it always nice to draw one. It also cares very little about graveyard hate. This is oversimplifying, but you can think of it as a cross between Lands and Maverick.

While this deck isn't exactly aggro, I would not say aggro loam is an outdated name or a name for a separate deck as this is the most aggressive deck/archetype that plays Life from the loam as a legit gameplan. Tho if you said you played aggro loam the assumption might be that you are playing Seismic Assaults and Countryside Crushers rather than the current incarnation of the deck.

Just played a GPT for Lille(13 people only) yesterday, here goes a small report.

Fist of all, the list I played:

2x Barren Moor
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Cabal Pit
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
2x Taiga
2x Tranquil Thicket
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath

3x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze

1x Toxic Deluge
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Life from the Loam

3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
1x Scroll Rack

1x Sylvan Library

2x Liliana of the Veil


SIDEBOARD

3x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Golgari Charm
1x Krosan Grip
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Slaughter Games
1x Sudden Demise
1x Cataclysm


ROUND 1 - Elves
Game 1: He mulls to 5, I am on a draw with Chalice on 1 and punishing after.

-1 Karakas -2 Life from the Loam -1 Knight of the Reliquary -2 Liliana of the Veil -1 Scroll Rack
+3 Canonist +1 Teeg +1 Golgari Charm +1 Sudden Demise +1 Cataclysm

Game 2: 2 Canonists, Teeg and a Chalice on 1 seal the deal.
1-0(2-0)

ROUND 2 - Elves
Game 1:I am on the play and loose to a NO on 3rd turn after not knowing how to count.

-1 Karakas -2 Life from the Loam -1 Knight of the Reliquary -2 Liliana of the Veil -1 Scroll Rack
+3 Canonist +1 Teeg +1 Golgari Charm +1 Sudden Demise +1 Cataclysm

Game 2: Mulligan to 5, and he NO after finding the Decay for Teeg
1-1(2-2)

ROUND 3 - BUG Delver
Game 1: On the draw and took a Shaman->Lili->2x Goyf. His Decay and a timely double Daze promptly ends things.

-1 Life from the Loam -1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Sudden Demise +1 Cataclysm

Game 2: Wasteland Lock+Knight closes game.

Game 3: A sudden demise for 5 clears 2 goyfs and 1 Shaman, and a Knight closes it up
2-1(4-3)

ROUND 4 - UWR GoldDigger
Game 1: I think I kept a bad hand and get punished for it. Nemesis with double equip is harsh.

-2 Life from the Loam -1 Gaddock Teeg -1 Tranquil Thicket
+1 Sudden Demise +1 Cataclysm +1 Golgari Charm +1 Krosan Grip

Game 2: Drew so many lands... He only has hate for awhile but atfer a while e takes over.
2-2(4-5)

ROUND 5 - Shardless BUG
Win and In, other 3 are locked. He conceded to me so I could top 4 and he already was locked.
We played it out for fun and it was Beatdown for him, then me, then him again.
3-2(5-7)

TOP4 - Elves(Round 2 oponent)
Game 1: I am on the draw but this time I know hot to count and drop a timely Teeg.

-1 Tranquil Thicket -3 Life from the Loam -1 Knight of the Reliquary -1 Liliana of the Veil -1 Scroll Rack
+3 Canonist +1 Teeg +1 Golgari Charm +1 Sudden Demise +1 Cataclysm

Game 2: I first turn Liliana and its just gets ridicule after that(3 Canonist, 2 Teeg and Cataclysm casted).
4-2(6-7)

FINAL - Miracles(Mostly the person I test every week)
Game 1: I am on the draw again, always on the back foot He responds with 5 angels to my teeg.

-1 Scroll Rack -1 Punishing Fire -1 Abrupt Decay -1 Loam -1 Ooze -1 Wasteland -1 Deluge
+3 Slaughter Games +1 Teeg +1 Golgari Charm +1 Krosan Grip +1 Cataclysm

Game 2: I believe he was stuck on 3 lands with a couple of Jace on hand, I play Teeg with a chalice on play, He draws the 4th land, the rest is history.

Game 3: Games on Jace. I do it first because I takes angels against me some times, this time he puts 3 cliques and 2 entreat with 2 Jaces to survive a Games, so I Games 2 turns after Entreat. He tries to beatdown, I kill the 2 Snaps and 1 clique he has with a charm, and that was sweet. Close the game shortly after
5-2(8-8)


Moral of the story: I got 2 byes :)

Overview of the Deck:
Scroll Rack is a win more card or a awful card so it is out.
Toxic Deluge was great in MD but didn't drew it enough.
Sudden Demise was fine but Deluge would be better as expected.
Cataclysm is to harsh on the manabase, however its effect is awesome. But its out also.
Cabal Pit is fine as Canopy is fine.... different situations but good in the same way.
I miss a way to win with lands, either Marite Lage or a Manland

So my plans are
MD: -1 Scroll Rack -1 Cabal Pit +1 Thespian's Stage +1 Dark Depths
SB: -1 Sudden Demise -1 Cataclysm +1 Toxic Deluge/Golgari Charm +1 Something to fair matchups(Either Armaggedon, Garruk, something like that)

Feel free to comment :)
Sorry for the Wall of Text.

EDIT: And please point out errors on how I sideboarded, I know there are a lot of them.

I'm curious about the frequent -1x Karakas, especially with the +3 Canonist +1 Teeg.

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

I'm curious about the frequent -1x Karakas, especially with the +3 Canonist +1 Teeg.

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I was thinking the same thing after typing the report.... That's why the EDIT at the bottom.... That was something I didn't considered, and probably hurted me more than a few times

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

ROUND 2 - Elves
-2 Liliana of the Veil

TOP4 - Elves(Round 2 oponent)
-1 Liliana of the Veil

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I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't know how to feel about Liliana in this matchup.

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

EDIT: And please point out errors on how I sideboarded, I know there are a lot of them.

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I don't think you want to board out loam against BUG delver. My two cents when deciding what to do with loam after board are: ask yourself if wasteland (yours OR your opponents) matters in the matchup. If yes, keep loam, if no remove loam. This is a bit of an oversimplification but I think is a reasonable rule of thumb. In that vein I would also board out loam against miracles.

I would also be more aggressive boarding out maze of ith. I don't think you want it against elves and miracles, for example.

As for liliana's value in the elves matchup, I think she's good if the game goes long. So the question you should be asking is, do you want the game to go long against elves?

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Originally Posted by Seraphix

I don't think you want to board out loam against BUG delver. My two cents when deciding what to do with loam after board are: ask yourself if wasteland (yours OR your opponents) matters in the matchup. If yes, keep loam, if no remove loam. This is a bit of an oversimplification but I think is a reasonable rule of thumb. In that vein I would also board out loam against miracles.

I would also be more aggressive boarding out maze of ith. I don't think you want it against elves and miracles, for example.

As for liliana's value in the elves matchup, I think she's good if the game goes long. So the question you should be asking is, do you want the game to go long against elves?

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Thanks for the input, as iamajellydonut was saying, Liliana feels weid in the matchup but based on your reasoning I think that I should keep it. I usually win the games that go long due to the amount of hate I can stick to the board.

I usually take 1 Loam at least due to grave hate but against BUG it doesn't make much sense.

As for the maze of ith, you are probably right... I usually never consider taking it out, mostly because it never crosses my mind.

The problem I usually face is that thelist is so tight that I don't know what to cut for the SB. e.g against elves, I want to bring in 3 Canonist, 1 Teeg, and 2 Sweepers(Toxic+Charm). I know I take at least 2 Loams out and Maze of Ith(at least now I know), There are still 3 Slots left... I can imagine taking the 3 loam but it doesn't seem right. When I am unsure I shave a knight due to the amount of GSZ I play

Ok, so, now that I'm at work and on the clock, I'll go ahead and reply. Unfortunately, my crabby older coworker is being obnoxious and I'm feeling like crap due to allergies and hunger, so it might not be the most elegant post.


I do advise taking out one Life from the Loam fairly frequently, but it shouldn't be because "they have graveyard hate". Every deck should be packing some measure of graveyard hate against you. And with good reason. The graveyard hate often comes at very little cost, and between Punishing Fire and Loam from the Loam and Knight of the Reliquary, the hate can get some very easy kills. Fortunately the deck can run without abusing the graveyard, but that's not the point. The point is that you can't blank the graveyard and make that Rest in Peace or Surgical Extraction go to waste. Because they're likely going to make it hurt anyway. So, the only thing you accomplish by taking out Life from the Loam is... just kinda having fewer Life from the Loams. Which isn't really a great plan. So what if they kill off your Loam? You get back Wasteland and Tranquil Thicket and Bayou. They Surgical Extract your Life from the Loam. Oh no.

Again, I do advocate that you be willing to take out some number of Life from the Loam in a variety of match-ups, but it shouldn't be because of the graveyard hate. It should be because Life from the Loam is legitimately a lackluster card in the match-up.

The the three major factors to consider when evaluating the post-board usefulness of Loam are Wasteland, speed, and consistency. And relatively in that order. Wasteland lacking lasting effectiveness should usually be the most common reason to drop a Life from the Loam, but needing speed within your match-up should be the only reason to drop two. "Consistency" is just going to be that ever-present reasoning for keeping it in, and is the reason I could never bring myself to pull out all three copies. As we all know, hitting land drops just becomes so much god damn easier with Life from the Loam.


Liliana vs Elves mystified me for so long that it was just funny to see you face the same conundrum. In the end I settled for two Lilianas staying in the deck post board. Even though she's slow, she is exceptionally relevant card advantage, which is of course the prime objective in the match-up, and can just walk away with games that you don't deserve to win. The only real issue is getting your hand swamped with her.


Wasteland is a card that you should never be looking to remove. Even against Miracles. Every deck, with the exception of select irrelevant combo bullshit, runs non-basic lands. Even if sparingly, there's just no reason to not run non-basics. And when they do present that rare non-basic, you should be ready to blow it out of the water and set them back a full turn.


Maze of Ith you really should be taking out in any match-up that's not a "fair" fight.


If you've ever read my posts in other threads with regards to Dark Confidant, you might remember that am a die hard proponent of never boarding him out. Except, as I figured out, when it comes to Elves. The redeeming quality of Dark Confidant is that even though its rewards may come at a slower pace, it still presents a clock. Which is hugely relevant against things like ANT or Burn. Problem is that Elves doesn't really care. They're very willing to take the two damage repeatedly and they're very able to favorably block. In the end, more often than not, Dark Confidant just ends up being a Phyrexian Arena that dies to your own Golgari Charms. Which is just not what you want. As a result, I've taken to boarding out one or two Dark Confidants depending on what else is in my board, and I do feel it freed me up to get a lot more aggressive.



Again, sorry if this wasn't the most elegant post. And grats on your byes. I wasn't able to go to the local SCG trial this weekend and get my own for that.

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

I do advise taking out one Life from the Loam fairly frequently, but it shouldn't be because "they have graveyard hate". Every deck should be packing some measure of graveyard hate against you. And with good reason. The graveyard hate often comes at very little cost, and between Punishing Fire and Loam from the Loam and Knight of the Reliquary, the hate can get some very easy kills. Fortunately the deck can run without abusing the graveyard, but that's not the point. The point is that you can't blank the graveyard and make that Rest in Peace or Surgical Extraction go to waste. Because they're likely going to make it hurt anyway. So, the only thing you accomplish by taking out Life from the Loam is... just kinda having fewer Life from the Loams. Which isn't really a great plan. So what if they kill off your Loam? You get back Wasteland and Tranquil Thicket and Bayou. They Surgical Extract your Life from the Loam. Oh no.

Again, I do advocate that you be willing to take out some number of Life from the Loam in a variety of match-ups, but it shouldn't be because of the graveyard hate. It should be because Life from the Loam is legitimately a lackluster card in the match-up.

The the three major factors to consider when evaluating the post-board usefulness of Loam are Wasteland, speed, and consistency. And relatively in that order. Wasteland lacking lasting effectiveness should usually be the most common reason to drop a Life from the Loam, but needing speed within your match-up should be the only reason to drop two. "Consistency" is just going to be that ever-present reasoning for keeping it in, and is the reason I could never bring myself to pull out all three copies. As we all know, hitting land drops just becomes so much god damn easier with Life from the Loam.

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Thanks for the input. This is the kind of reasoning I sometimes lack and just take on feel. I think I don't have trouble to know what to take in, but taking out cards is a pain since the list is so tight.

I am currently orchestrating a sideboard guide just so I can have some lines to follow and adapt on the fly.

I usually don't take Wasteland against pretty much no-one, especially against miracles since I aggressively waste their fetches in critical times.
Taking out Maze of Ith is obvious now, but I never considered it without a good justification.

I like to keep the Dark Confidants since they find the lock pieces and they have been working great for me.

Don't worry, the post was pretty elegant :) everyone have bad days.

Can we talk about the Elves matchup? Its really the only common matchup I still feel strongly disfavored against.

I think the stuff you want against them is obvious (someone please tell me if it isn't). For me it is G. Teeg, Canonist, G-Charm, and Deluge. However that is 7 cards, and what to take out becomes less obvious which others have touched on. I feel fine cutting 3 Loam everytime, but the next 4 become difficult choices and I inevitably end up cutting random things.

This might sound weird, but I now believe the matchup should be approached similarly to the Burn matchup: your goal should basically be to lock them out of the game. In this case that involves wiping their board and having Chalice and Teeg. As such, I don't think you want to take out anything that reduces your velocity as you basically have to cobble together a 3-card combo (does Loaming back cycle lands count as velocity? If so I guess you want Loam after all?). Thus I think while Bob seems relatively poor against Elves, I don't think you can afford to cut him. In the same vein, this plan doesn't appear to involve Liliana, so I think she has to go. After that you probably want to remove a creature like Ooze or Tarmogoyf.

Any thoughts or criticisms would be appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix

Can we talk about the Elves matchup? Its really the only common matchup I still feel strongly disfavored against.

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I wouldn't necessarily call it "strongly disfavored". I mean, something as simple as sweeper+Punishing Fire is often enough to carry the game. But I will say and/or agree that it is one confusing as shit match-up.

"Velocity" I guess is pretty good if you're trying to sum it up with a single term. To expand upon that though and clarify, what you're trying to do is quickly prevent them from establishing a foothold. Once you do that, it's easy enough to walk away with the game.

In my previous post, I suggested cutting some number of Bobs, Loams, and Lilis. Not all, but some. And the reason for this is because you do just need to churn out every last bit of removal you can without pause and without fail, or Elves will bury you or at least get enough on board to squeeze out a Natural Order.


Life from the Loam is an amazing card, but even in your standard match-ups, more than one can often be redundant. In an environment like the Elves match-up where you can't afford to miss a kill or lock spell, seeing multiple Loams can put you in an awkward position. Hell, even a single Loam can be the last thing you want to see against Elves. However, despite Loam being situationally lackluster, Wastelands are still hugely effective, and Loam can keep you from stalling on land. Add in that dredging it passively digs for Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows, there is a strong justification for leaving at least one, if not two, Loams post-board.


Liliana may be slower than you want her to be here, but she does still have the potential to do exactly what you need her to. Effects that get you closer to matching their card advantage should be shrugged off lightly. The difficulties come from her, again, being slow, sucking in multiples, and also sometimes being difficult to get card advantage out of unless you have a wall to protect her or are already hampering their board count. Without some insurance to her survival, Elves has no problem just licking its wounds and shipping over a Quirion Ranger for the cleanup.


By no means do I believe Dark Confidant is necessary. Ever. He simply just manages to consistently be one of the best creatures in the format provided you can afford to run him. However, Confidant's exceptional features sort of pall when faced with Elves. In a format that's rather devoid of card advantage, Confidant usually delivers. In a format where legs are usually everything, his gams show up all the competition. However, Elves doesn't care about his legs, and his card advantage is usually too slow. Even though he's definitely not a bad card, he basically suffers from the same problems as the other two "big ones". He's slow and is rarely the card you're looking for to get the job done. Additionally, unlike the other two, he doesn't even give you any nominal gain the moment he hits the board. It takes two turns for him to be anything other than a really expensive cycling. And, for this reason, I suggest that Dark Confidant is a card that you can safely and liberally cut.


Assuming it's a singleton, I wouldn't be looking to ditch Scavenging Ooze. Not a staple, but it effectively shuts off Destitute Shaman (consolation usage), and more importantly it can get fucking massive really quick. Which is actually somewhat useful. While they may be able to soak the beats that Dark Confidant that can put over the table, it's kind of hard to ignore a 6+/6+ that's threatening to close out the game.


Qasali Pridemage, assuming you run it mainboard, can easily be removed.


I'm again going to agree with the sentiment that your can safely board out Maze of Iith if you need to. But I also want to point out that if you run with a high land count, you can usually afford to take out a utility land against anything if you need to. I mean, what is Karakas honestly doing other than being an effectively colorless lump once you've established there are no legends in the game? And if you can't justify getting rid of either of Karakas or Maze of Ith, then you can always afford to take out one Barren Moor since it's mainly used to fix you to what you need (see: sideboard cards) anyway..I don't advise taking out too much (I usually just take out one land if I need to) since you do need a high enough count to still support Mox Diamond, but do keep in mind that such a course of action is an option if you're really trying to squeeze in sideboard cards.


And that's all I got for now. I've been on the train for a bit and so I'm sending this from my phone. Feel free to ignore any glaring grammatical errors or point out crap that I missed.

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

I wouldn't necessarily call it "strongly disfavored". I mean, something as simple as sweeper+Punishing Fire is often enough to carry the game. But I will say and/or agree that it is one confusing as shit match-up.

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I will reiterate that I am no means an expert with this deck, or this format for that matter-a year ago I had never played a single game of Legacy.

I understand that one approach to the matchup is to "just kill 'em all". Liliana is guaranteed to eat one of their cards so she can just be seen as another, albeit expensive, removal spell. The problem is obviously the sheer power level and flexibility of the Elves deck. Elves often plays out like a critical mass deck such as Storm or Burn, but they only need a creature and a Natural Order to put near total pressure on you, while Storm and Burn basically fold to two well placed Hymns. Interestingly, in the situations where they go NO-Pro off 1 creature Liliana suddenly becomes your best card (if they're on Worldspine Wurm you're fucked though). I think that if you're on this plan you have to take it literally and be all-in, meaning you actually want Liliana in your deck instead of something like Canonist. I'd never considered going this deep before, but maybe this strategy could be correct, particularly on the play. Basically, I'm suggesting that by going half-way on either a lock plan or removal plan, you end up compromising both, if that makes any sense.

Also, to point out a flaw in the logic of my previous post: While you can apply a near total lock on Burn with G. Teeg, Chalice on 1, and Chalice on 2, Elves can break up Chalice with Abrupt Decay which is problematic because, well, it isn't a lock if they can break out of it.

I would like to bring up an episode from the IQ to illustrate some of the problems with the matchup:
I'm on the play in game 2 and *snap* keep 7 with Chalice and Canonist.
T1: Land, go
T2: Nettle Sentinel
T3: Chalice on 1
T4: Arbor
T5: Canonist (At this point I have Abrupt Decay, Liliana, and a Knight in my hand. In my frenzy to "lock him" ASAP I lead on Canonist. Having Canonist and Chalice is actually a bit redundant here, and the value of redundancy against Decay might be low)
T6: Zenith for Visionary
T7: Attack with Canonist, play Knight (I actually want to play Liliana, but since I attacked she would basically just trade with his Arbor. I thought the game could go long and decided Liliana was worth keeping around so I deployed the 3/3 Knight first, also to get a clock in play. Contradictory logic much?)
T8: NO for Hoof with X=4. I have to chump with my Knight.
T9: I can cast Decay and Liliana this turn, but am still exactly dead.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I think running out Decay and Liliana just to trade cards sooner could have radically changed the outcome of this game. I was so focused on applying a lock (not even guaranteed) that I appear to have lost sight of what the game was actually about considering the context of my hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seraphix

I would like to bring up an episode from the IQ to illustrate some of the problems with the matchup:
I'm on the play in game 2 and *snap* keep 7 with Chalice and Canonist.
T1: Land, go
T2: Nettle Sentinel
T3: Chalice on 1
T4: Arbor
T5: Canonist (At this point I have Abrupt Decay, Liliana, and a Knight in my hand. In my frenzy to "lock him" ASAP I lead on Canonist. Having Canonist and Chalice is actually a bit redundant here, and the value of redundancy against Decay might be low)
T6: Zenith for Visionary
T7: Attack with Canonist, play Knight (I actually want to play Liliana, but since I attacked she would basically just trade with his Arbor. I thought the game could go long and decided Liliana was worth keeping around so I deployed the 3/3 Knight first, also to get a clock in play. Contradictory logic much?)
T8: NO for Hoof with X=4. I have to chump with my Knight.
T9: I can cast Decay and Liliana this turn, but am still exactly dead.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I think running out Decay and Liliana just to trade cards sooner could have radically changed the outcome of this game. I was so focused on applying a lock (not even guaranteed) that I appear to have lost sight of what the game was actually about considering the context of my hand.

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Aaaand this is why Elves is so awkward. You said it right. If you have sufficient hate on one line of victory, it always seems as though they have the other at the ready. Hell, I mean, even doing everything right they could have pulled out a Progenitus instead and maybe had a food outlet ready for Liliana. Despite being gimped by my tedious phone keyboard earlier, I did actually manage to use the correct word when referring to your goal against Elves. Quickly stall them. As you so properly stated, it's pretty tough to lock them out of the game. Even in the most winning scenarios, they're still usually managing to somehow sneak through an Elvish Mystic or some other piece of crap even if you have Chalices at 1-4 and a Gaddock Teeg on the board. But don't get so disparaged that you'll suggest crazy stuff like not boarding in all of your Canonists.

Liliana is only situationally good at controlling the board. And, when she does, it rocks, but more often than not she is one giant sexy sandbag in your hand that you wish was absolutely anything else instead. A 3cc Edict, though it can get the job done, is less than desirable, and multiples of a 3cc Edict can be devastating. Jund is a deck that likes to stick with its Lilianas and try to "lock" out the board through that route, but that's because they have to. They don't have the option of dropping an early Chalice and keeping them off Natural Order/Green Sun's Zenith mana with Wasteland. They don't have the option of Ethersworn Canonist in tandem with Punishing Fire. They don't have the option of Gaddock Teeg. They have willy-nilly hate and Tarmogoyfs with fingers crossed.

Anyway, your hindsight thoughts have the right idea. Chalice of the Void was absolutely the correct opener. Ethersworn Canonist was definitely the incorrect follow up. Canonist should have been held until you had 100% spare time to cast it or until they decided to kill Chalice of the Void. It's just incredibly redundant in that scenario. Either casting Knight of the Reliquary or idly containing their board with Abrupt Decay would have been the proper play. Assuming you had the third land drop, I would have preferred Knight since odds were they'd be unable to make too effective of a turn while it was summoning sick. Then you could just untap, grab a Wasteland or chain for mana to cast both Liliana and Abrupt Decay or some other crazy combo. Casting Abrupt Decay would have been the immediate safe play, but wouldn't net you as much overall value and power as Knight would.

Another thing to note is that you don't always need to attack. Without more detailed information, I'm not sure if holding Canonist back as a lone blocker would have been enough to protect your life total in order for you to "untap" with Knight, but, regardless, it should serve as enough of a hypothetical to get the lesson across. Beats are great. Beats are awesome and they're ultimately what wins the game, but you shouldn't beat just because you can. Even in the best of scenarios, Elves can present a really, really grindy game. And while you may reach the end of it and think about the life totals and "every point matters!", that's nothing compared to the overall benefit of positioning.


That being said, this is what these shit games are for. "You can't master mountain biking without falling and skinning your knee to the point where it's so agonizing that you instinctively lob your bike over what is basically a cliff and instantly regret it" or some equally insufferable parable that illustrates the process of learning.

This matchup easly gains the most awkward games ever. It seems you have everything in control but they can attack from so many angles.

In the case you describe I would have gone with knight since his way to victory is either land a Sage, NO or Decay which are all week to wasteland(presuming a normal elves build with only 2 basics.)

I also suffer the "What to take out?" in this matchup since we have so many cards to bring in.
I like to keep at least 1 Loam in as iamajellydonut was saying, since the wasteland plan is powerful if a chalice is on the table.

I usually take a Zenith because I bring a Teeg and I run 3 GSZ. As pointed to my report above, I don't think we should cut Karakas since we bring so many white cards + its some protection for Teeg.
Still some doubts about Lili, It is awesome and the worst card in the match. I also don't like taking Ooze in the matchup, it can close games pretty fast, counters their DRS and might even gain enough life from them to fizzle.

This is my current guide for sb against elves. Is my no means optimal but I believe is in the right track.
-2 Loam -1 Maze of Ith/Cycle land -1 Liliana/Cycle Land -1 Zenith(I run 3 of these) -1 Knight
+3 Canonist +1 Deluge +1 Teeg +1 Golgari Charm

I'm gonna take this opportunity to harp on the "-4 Leyline +2-3 Grafdigger's Cage/Containment Priest +1 good card" thing as more flexible graveyard hate that doubles as great cards against the elves matchup.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

I'm gonna take this opportunity to harp on the "-4 Leyline +2-3 Grafdigger's Cage/Containment Priest +1 good card" thing as more flexible graveyard hate that doubles as great cards against the elves matchup.

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I have been thinking about taking out one Leyline of the Void for one Grafdigger's Cage, but for unrelated reasons. Mainly to minimize drawing a Leyline of the Void. I would be willing to cut Leyline entirely, but the problem is that there's not much to replace it with, and I am not adding more than one Grafdigger's. Nihil Spellbomb is shit. Relic of Progenitus is too symmetrical. Same with Rest in Peace. Surgical Extraction gets tricky because you have to hold it and then often can't cast it when you need to through Chalice. I've tried the other options (sparingly), and while I'm not at all a fan of Leyline of the Void in general, I am willing to admit that it fits the bill nicely. Though I'm hoping that a Grafdigger's Cage will make it less clunky. Less likely to see a Leyline of the Void in the opener, sure, but you shouldn't be aggressively mulling to a Leyline of the Void anyway.


Also, I'm glad Pilhas mentioned sideboarding out a Green Sun's Zenith, because it's something I've been meaning to bring up. How aggressively do you guys board out Green Sun's Zenith? For example, I played against UWR Delver yesterday and I took out...

-1*Karakas
-1*Scavenging Ooze
-1*Gaddock Teeg
-1*Green Sun's Zenith

I mean, if you remove most of the tutor box and don't critically need to tutor anything remaining, I you can probably remove one of the tutors. But now I'm thinking I could have removed both copies of Green Sun's Zenith and the Dryad Arbor for a result of getting to keep the Karakas and getting to bring in another card without hassle. The only real arguments against doing so is that you're effectively cutting copies of Knight of the Reliquary and you can't really know in advance if you're going to need an impromptu Llanowar Elf. Anyone have thoughts or experience with the matter?